Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission
Regulations Committee
April 3, 2002
Commission Hearing RoomTexas Parks & Wildlife Department Headquarters Complex
4200 Smith School Road
Austin, TX 78744
1 5 BE IT REMEMBERED, that heretofore on the 3rd day 6 of April, 2002, there came to be heard matters under the 7 regulatory authority of the Parks and Wildlife Commission of 8 Texas, in the Commission Hearing Room of the Texas Parks and 9 Wildlife Headquarters Complex, Austin, Texas, beginning at 10 9:00 a.m., to wit: 11 12 APPEARANCES: 13 THE PARKS AND WILDLIFE COMMISSION: 14 15 REGULATIONS COMMITTEE: 16 CHAIR: Joseph Fitzsimons, San Antonio, Texas Donato D. Ramos, Laredo, Texas 17 Philip Montgomery, III, Dallas, Texas Ernest Angelo, Jr., Midland, Texas 18 John Avila, Jr., Fort Worth, Texas Alvin L. Henry, Houston, Texas (Absent) 19 Katharine Armstrong Idsal, San Antonio, Texas Mark E. Watson, Jr., San Antonio, Texas 20 Kelly W. Rising, M.D., Beaumont, Texas 21 22 23 THE TEXAS PARKS AND WILDLIFE COMMISSION: Robert L. Cook, Executive Director, and other personnel of 24 the Parks and Wildlife Department 25 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 2 1 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Good morning. Is this on? 2 Okay. Good morning, everybody, thanks for coming. Before 3 proceeding with any business, I believe Mr. Cook has a 4 statement to make. 5 MR. COOK: Madame Chairman, a public notice of 6 this meeting containing all items on the proposed agenda has 7 been filed in the office of the Secretary of State as required 8 by Chapter 551, Government Code, referred to as the Open 9 Meetings Law. I would like for this action to be noted in the 10 official record of this meeting. 11 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Thank you, Mr. Cook. Before 12 beginning today I want to explain that there will be a little 13 bit of a change in our normal procedure. We are going to 14 begin with the Regulations Committee and then recess the 15 Regulations Committee to convene the Finance Committee so that 16 we can wait for a couple of the commissioners to be here so 17 they can here Mr. Bomer's report. We will go through the 18 Finance Committee to its conclusion and then reconvene the 19 Regulations Committee until its conclusion. So with that, I 20 will turn the gavel over to Mr. Fitzsimons. Commissioner. 21 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMMONS: Thank you, Madame Chair. 22 The Regulations Committee will come to order here at 9:02 23 right on time. The first order is approval of the committee 24 minutes from the previous meeting. I have one or two minor 25 changes to the minutes from January 16th, 2002. Be noted on ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 3 1 Page 3 of the minutes, top of the page, fourth line reads, 2 "Mr. Cook relied in the affirmative," I believe that should be 3 "replied in the affirmative." And in the briefing on cervid 4 disease issues, which is Paragraph 3, three lines from the 5 bottom it says "no credited test for CWD," I believe that 6 should be "no accredited test." And at the end of that 7 Paragraph 3 at the top of Page 5, five lines from the bottom 8 it reads, "And that there should provisions," I believe that 9 should read, "and that there should be provisions for 10 evaluation." And I don't have any further changes. Anyone 11 else on the minutes from the previous? Hearing none, motion 12 to approve the minutes from our previous meeting. 13 COMMISSIONER RISING: So moved. 14 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Second. 15 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: All opposed? And propose 16 same signed and what's next here? Chairman's Charges. Bob. 17 MR. COOK: Mr. Fitzsimons, thank you. I have 18 several items I would like to report to you on this morning. 19 We have been working on Chairman's Charges and I want to 20 address several of them with you here. 21 The first charge to examine and develop 22 guidelines for the removal and disposable and abandoned or 23 illegal crab traps. The Commission, as you know, adopted a 24 16-day closure in late February, early March for the use of 25 crab traps during its November '01 meeting. The staff ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 4 1 organized and coordinated the first and very successful crab 2 trap removal operation ever in the State of Texas. Hal Osburn 3 in Coastal Fisheries Division Director will brief the 4 Commission on the status of this first crab trap removal 5 program tomorrow in the open public meeting. 6 The second charge, review the Commission 7 committee structure. Staff has reviewed the Commission policy 8 manual and are proposing amendments that address this charge. 9 Gene McCarty will present the proposed amendments ment to the 10 Committee in Item 7. 11 Review the oyster lease permitting process. 12 Coastal staff worked closely with the Oyster Advisory 13 Committee during the 77th Legislature regarding this issue. 14 The Commission adopted the proposed amendments to the oyster 15 fisheries proclamation during its January '02 meeting. New 16 regulations will be in full affect prior to the start of the 17 transplant season. In addition, staff have published a rule 18 review of this section of the proclamation in the Texas 19 Register for public comments. Robin Riechers will present the 20 results of this rule review in Item 4. 21 Thank you, sir. 22 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: Thank you, Bob. The next 23 issue item on the agenda, No. 2, cervid disease issues. Jerry 24 Cooke. 25 DR. COOKE: Mr. Chairman and members, my name ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 5 1 is Jerry Cooke. I'm Game Branch Chief for the Wildlife 2 Division, I'll be presenting you further updates on our cervid 3 disease issues, three Commission meetings in a row, I believe. 4 Since the March 11th emergency action that was taken by you to 5 suspend importation of white-tail deer and mule deer into 6 Texas, a number of things have happened. Six other states 7 have joined Texas in suspending importation of cervids into 8 their states in various forms. And one state has taken this 9 county and done the same thing but not a generalized issue for 10 the State. We have had -- also the Texas Animal Health 11 Commission has taken action to suspend the issuance of 12 importation permits for elk which rounds out the primary 13 species of concern on importation. Also, we have had 14 extensive meetings with Animal Health Commission working out 15 enforcement protocols. What does a warden do when he finds 16 himself with a trailer load of deer on the side of the road in 17 the middle of the night and we think we have those worked out 18 to everyone's satisfaction. 19 Also Operation Game Thief Committee has adopted 20 a $10,000 reward for information leading to the conviction of 21 anyone who is illegally importing deer into this state. In 22 addition, there's still pending actions with the Animal Health 23 Commission that I thought I would also bring to your 24 attention. One is for the Animal Health Commission itself to 25 provide its executive director with the authority to embargo ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 6 1 states that she finds at risk -- of risk to the State of 2 Texas. And I assume that that will be adopted at their next 3 Commission meeting. Also, they have rules published that will 4 limit importation of white-tail deer, mule deer, black-tail 5 deer, and elk into this state from only those facilities that 6 have a chronic waste and disease monitoring program in place 7 that has been in place for three years, have found no chronic 8 waste and disease and has imported no animals into that 9 facility during that time. Again, those are pending with the 10 Animal Health Commission. Your action today would include 11 adoption, if you choose, to make a permanent rule of the 12 suspension. And when I say permanent rule, I mean the rule 13 will be in place until you take action to rescind it or to 14 amend it. And this would replace, of course, the action item 15 of March 11th. 16 When we discussed this in January, part of the 17 proposal that was laid out and published addresses the issue 18 that is found in statute, which is to say that only those deer 19 that are, quote, "in a healthy condition," end quote, they be 20 brought, sold, bartered, traded, whatever, in this State. But 21 healthy condition was not defined either in statute or rule. 22 We proposed at that time that a possible definition of "in a 23 healthy condition" would be deer that come from facility that 24 have both a chronic waste and disease monitoring program and a 25 tuberculosis herd accreditation or has a valid herd health ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 7 1 management plan approved by the Texas Animal Health 2 Commission. And this definition then would be linked to a 3 rule that would clarify the statutory element, and that rule 4 change would be no person may sell, offer for sale, transport, 5 except to a veterinarian for health reasons, temporarily 6 transfer or release to the wild, unless their facility met 7 that definition. 8 Since your January meeting and previous to your 9 emergency action we had several meetings with the Texas Deer 10 Association who made several offers of cooperation to the 11 agency. One of which would be to take the lead and I 12 understood that to be the lead in every way the effort 13 gathering the finances, et cetera, to bring the BTB blood test 14 back into Texas which would be a good thing for everybody. 15 Also, the Executive Committee of the Texas Deer Association 16 said that they would be more than willing to put the strong 17 arm on their members, for lack of a better terminology, to try 18 to get more of their members in a voluntary program if we 19 would consider postponing taking -- taking action on the 20 monitoring portion of the proposal. And our recommendation is 21 to certainly think hard and long about the importation 22 permanent rule but also to consider the possibility of 23 postponing action on the monitoring and testing requirements. 24 And that concludes my presentation. If you have any 25 questions. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 8 1 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMMONS: Any questions for Jerry? 2 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Commissioner Fitzsimons, I 3 have a question. Jerry, could you tell me when the next 4 meeting of the Animal Health Commission. 5 DR. COOKE: No, ma'am. I don't know. They 6 meet at irregular dates and it has a lot to do with whether or 7 not they can make a quorum. They have a huge committee 8 commission and making a quorum is not an easy thing. I think 9 the fact that they've had new appointments to their 10 commission, which I think -- 11 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Make it easier? 12 DR. COOKE: You're aware of will make it 13 easier, but I really don't know. I could find out. I'll call 14 Gene Nelson and see if they have a tentative and I'll have 15 that for you today. 16 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Yesterday I got a copy of a 17 letter from someone who you're familiar with, Dr. Frank 18 Griffin -- 19 DR. COOKE: Yes. 20 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: -- in New Zealand who happens 21 to be the guy who has the BTB, the current the BTB test and 22 that some of these organizations are trying to get back over 23 here. 24 DR. COOKE: Uh-huh. 25 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: It's my understanding from ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 9 1 this letter that there is a new and improved version of the 2 BTB test that would not require the skin patch testing to 3 heighten sensitivity, and I'm getting into areas I really -- 4 DR. COOKE: Right. 5 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: -- am no expert on. 6 DR. COOKE: That was a characteristic of the 7 original BTB test is that every animal had to have one skin 8 test to solicit enough immune response to be useful in the 9 test. I was not aware of the other test. 10 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: So assuming that it looks 11 positive and they're optimistic that the skin test would not 12 be required in order to heighten the sensitivity to the BTB 13 test that the would be very positive news. 14 DR. COOKE: Absolutely. 15 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Okay. If you could keep me 16 posted on that, that would be great. The those are the only 17 questions I have. 18 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: How long would this 19 voluntary effort take before we knew whether it was working or 20 not? 21 DR. COOKE: That would be your call. If it 22 were me, which is it not, but if it were me, I think that it 23 would be fair to the Texas Deer Association to make it clear 24 to them what you considered to be a reasonable effort, 25 whatever that may be. It may be a good geographic ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 10 1 distribution, you know, a breeder's testing in a voluntary 2 program or some percentage of their numbers of the scientific 3 breeder numbers, but that would be your call on that. But I 4 think that would be appropriate. I think they would welcome 5 that knowing what it would take. 6 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: How would we determine 7 what a reasonable period is? I mean, what -- 8 DR. COOKE: That would be your call. 9 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: What would you recommend 10 as reasonable period? 11 DR. COOKE: Well, the shortest possible would 12 be by the May meeting, but, you know, you could say -- 13 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Would that be reasonable? 14 DR. COOKE: Huh? 15 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Would that be reasonable, 16 do you think? 17 DR. COOKE: Yes. 18 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: You're saying they just 19 have to sign up to -- 20 DR. COOKE: They have to be part of the -- yes, 21 they have to be part of the program. 22 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: And you wouldn't have a 23 lot of data. 24 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: It wouldn't actually be 25 done but the commitment would be there. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 11 1 DR. COOKE: The commitment would be there, 2 uh-huh. 3 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: I'm sorry. 4 COMIMSSIONER ANGELO: No, that's fine. 5 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: How many voluntary 6 members are participating in the program now, Jerry? 7 DR. COOKE: I don't know. I'm sorry, I don't 8 know but I could check with them when I call to check on 9 Chairman Idsal's question, I'll check on that as well. The 10 last I heard was at the meeting that we had earlier and it was 11 just a handful but -- 12 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: I remember three in the 13 meeting you and I attended. 14 DR. COOKE: I remembered it closer to nine but 15 that's nine out of 400. But also it is my understanding and 16 you may hear more about it tomorrow, that the president of 17 Texas Deer Association has met with all their regional 18 committees and has, you know, like taken the pledge but we'll 19 see. I would rather you hear that from them than from me. 20 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: So by the next meeting in 21 May we should see something. 22 DR. COOKE: One would think. 23 COMMISSIONER WATSON: I don't understand. In 24 other words, if we go ahead and pass the regulation requiring 25 the test then the Texas Deer Association says then they're out ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 12 1 of it. 2 DR. COOKE: No. Like I say, I'm not speaking 3 for them. All I'm saying is that they -- they suggested that 4 they have an opportunity since they've seen the level of 5 concern of this Commission, had the opportunity to try to get 6 their membership to do it voluntarily. The thing is, is that 7 any who enter it voluntarily, if you take an action at some 8 other date will not affect them at all because they will 9 already be in compliance before you ever adopted a change. 10 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Jerry? 11 DR. COOKE: Yes, sir. 12 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: We've addressed the out of 13 state health issues. Do you have any concerns about within 14 the State, health issues as they relate to the movement of 15 deer, or is that -- is that not a concern of yours at this 16 point? 17 DR. COOKE: How important that would be within 18 the State would have a lot to do with -- it would be more 19 linked to our knowledge of diseases as they're occurring 20 across the State. For instance, we know that there's 21 tuberculosis in and around El Paso and in and around Pecos and 22 in and around Fayette County. Taking animals from that area, 23 you know, not knowing whether deer is involved in those 24 diseases or not, you may seem like too long a step. It may 25 not be. We -- you have taken action related to importation ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 13 1 because of concern and we're labeling that action or have been 2 labeling that action as a suspension which suggests that when 3 the Animal Health Commission is in a position to do something 4 we will back back out of that and leave it in that place. And 5 whether or not you felt that same level of concern about 6 movement within the State, again, would be your call. 7 (Chairman Emeritus Bass present.) 8 DR. COOKE: And how much risk you think that 9 would be. I'm concerned about everything, but that's my job. 10 I'm paid to be concerned. 11 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: But your concerns from the 12 State are not as great as from out of state? 13 DR. COOKE: Absolutely. Absolutely not. 14 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: I don't have a question but I 15 do have something I want to say. I was most gratified by the 16 level of cooperation that the Texas Parks and Wildlife 17 received from the various organizations. I see many of them 18 here and what a tremendous help it was to me and to the rest 19 of the commission and to the Department to have their help and 20 input. I just wanted to say that. Thank you all very much. 21 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: Can we hear just 22 briefly about the law enforcement side of this and how much 23 enforcement is needed, how much of a concern we have about 24 compliance with regulation we passed, if we have any concern 25 about that. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 14 1 DR. COOKE: Well, I've been involved in some of 2 the conversations on the subject and I'll talk in general 3 terms. If you have a really technical questions, I'll ask 4 Buddy Turner to help on some of those. Basically this is like 5 any other kind of violation. Hopefully the Operation Game 6 Thief reward will be very helpful 'cause that's a sizable 7 reward. They've had that high of a reward for a violation 8 before. And the key to it is going to be for knowledge of and 9 that's something that we wouldn't necessary have, but there's 10 somebody that knows about them. Putting our hands on 11 white-tail deer or mule deer that are illegally brought into 12 this State is a much simpler enforcement issue than putting 13 your hands on a trailer load of cattle that came across the 14 border illegally because there's an issue of private property 15 with cattle that do not apply to white-tail deer. I know that 16 scientific breeders purchase the deer, they're holding them, 17 they may sell them. That's a -- that's a condition of the 18 scientific breeder statutes. But in fact the statutes 19 specifically say that white-tail deer are subject to all the 20 laws in this State and those laws include property of the 21 people of the State, da-da, da-da and enforcement and powers 22 of taking by the department. So basically if there's a 23 trailer load of deer that's brought into the State illegally, 24 that means that there is no permit for them, they can't 25 possibly be legally a part of a scientific breeder facility ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 15 1 and therefore they're our deer is what it boils down to. Now 2 What you do with them is where it starts getting complicated. 3 We don't have the money to hold them forever. We're not going 4 to be able to turn them around on the road and send them back 5 to another State because they won't take them. And we're 6 certainly not going to release them and that's basically bring 7 it to down destroying them. That's what we've done is made 8 arrangements with the diagnostic veterinary clinic in Amarillo 9 and the vet school at A&M to assist us in that regard and to 10 dispose of the carcasses in a safe and helpful sort of way. 11 If you have more technical questions about 12 that, then I think -- 13 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: I really was trying 14 to understand the practical side of whether we feel like 15 there's full compliance with our regulation or whether we're 16 concerned about violations of it and if so are we taking 17 adequate steps to enforce it. 18 DR. COOKE: In my opinion we have, but if Buddy 19 has a different comment he can make that. 20 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: When you're talking about 21 enforcement it's not restricted to just our game wardens. I 22 would think that the Texas Animal Health Commission and 23 Federal -- would also -- the Feds would also have jurisdiction 24 over it. 25 DR. COOKE: Absolutely because it's bringing ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 16 1 white-tail or mule deer into the State illegally, you know, 2 falls into -- I believe falls into the Lacy Act which is a 3 Federal violation -- which is a Federal felony. It's not a 4 Class C, which is what our statute says. 5 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Really more teeth in the 6 federal law than in our law as it relates to the movement of 7 them. 8 DR. COOKE: Yes. 9 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: Any further questions? 10 We'll adjourn the Regulations Committee and reconvene with 11 Item 3. Thank you, jerry, and I -- 12 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Before adjourning the Regs 13 Committee, this item will be on the agenda for tomorrow. 14 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMMONS: I'm sorry. If there are 15 no further questions or discussions, without objection, I'll 16 place this item on the Thursday Commission meeting agenda for 17 public comment and action. And with that, adjourn -- is there 18 a motion adjourn the Regs Committee? 19 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: We can recess. 20 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: Recess it, I'm sorry. 21 Recessing the Regulations Committee and reconvene with Item 3. 22 (Regulations Committee recessed to begin 23 Finance Committee.) 24 (Regulations Committee reconvened at 11:40.) 25 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Back to work. We will ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 17 1 reconvene the Regulations Committee with Joseph Fitzsimons 2 chairman. Here's your gavel. 3 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: Thank you. Madam Chair, 4 reconvene the Regulations Committee. We recessed by my notes 5 at 9:20 and reconvene at 11:40. The next item of business is 6 Statewide Fishing Proclamation Gary Graham, come forward. 7 Thank you. 8 DR. GRAHAM: Chairman Fitzsimons, members of 9 the Committee, I'm Gary Graham, Director of the Wildlife 10 Division and I'll be discussing the statewide proposals for 11 the Wildlife Division today. We have ten proposals that were 12 coordinated with law enforcement in the field. Seven of these 13 pertain to deer, two involve turkey, and one involves the make 14 up of the hunting license. 15 The first proposal is an experimental 16 regulation where we will redefine what a legal buck is in 17 order to address a high harvest pressure and undesirable age 18 structure of the herd in six counties. Because of this 19 proposal is so well documented and moderately complex, I 20 wanted to spend a little extra time and have our white-tail 21 deer program leader Clayton Wolf to my right here present some 22 of the details to you. 23 MR. WOLF: Mr. Chairman, members, for the 24 record my name is Clayton Wolf, the white-tail deer program 25 coordinator. I'm going to present to you an abbreviated ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 18 1 version of a presentation that we gave at the six public 2 hearings in the county where we are proposing this action. 3 The key term that we are focusing in the title slide is a term 4 experimental. We will formally sunset this in regulation if 5 it is adopted so that it will be in effect for three years, we 6 will monitor it through that period and come back with a 7 recommendation. There's one primary biological goal that 8 we're shooting for with this proposal and that is to improve 9 the age structure of the buck herd. We feel like this goal is 10 obtainable in the three year life of this regulation and by 11 year three that it is measurable. There's another goal that 12 may be a little bit further down the horizon and may not seem 13 as apparent and that deals with increasing hunter opportunity 14 and recreation. And toward the end of my presentation I 15 hopefully will adequately describe why we think we can achieve 16 that. The proposal is for six counties in the post okay 17 ecological area specifically the southern end of the post oak 18 ecological area; those are Austin, Colorado, Fayette, Lavaca, 19 Lee, and Washington Counties. There's several reasons we 20 chose these six counties. One is we have very active wildlife 21 management associations in these counties. We actually have 22 30 co-ops. Those 30 co-ops have over 2,500 members those 23 2,500 landowners own over 527,000 acres of land which 24 compromises approximately 40 percent of the deer habitat in 25 these six counties. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 19 1 In addition, we have a wildlife staff person 2 that is specifically assigned to each of those counties. Six 3 staffers, so that if this proposal is adopted we would have 4 adequate manpower for education and data collection efforts. 5 In addition, this Commission may be aware that there's a 6 history of individuals, organizations, and co-ops in this 7 country that have petitioned this Commission before for some 8 form of antler restriction so there's a history in the area of 9 some kind of restriction or at least request for antler 10 restrictions. Of course, what we're talking about is 11 redefining what a legal buck is in this six counties. Right 12 now a legal buck deer state-wide is defined as having a 13 hardened antler protruding through the skin. Our proposal 14 would require that that buck deer also meet an additional one 15 of three other criteria. One of those is that it have at 16 least one unbranched antler or an inside spread measurement 17 between the main beams of 13 inches or greater, which I will 18 just refer to as inside spread, or six-points or more on one 19 antler. 20 In the presentation in January we inadvertently 21 omitted an exemption that we feel like needs to be in this 22 regulation proposal. We feel like landowners who have been 23 issued Level 2 and Level 3 managed land deer permits should be 24 exempt from this proposal. The reason we feel this is these 25 landowners are working under a wildlife management plan that ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 20 1 is approved by our wildlife staff. They are already under 2 harvest guidelines and we would not want to further constrain 3 these people when they already have a custom harvest 4 recommendation that protects the resource. So we would ask 5 your consideration in amending the proposal to include this. 6 We're also -- we also needed to define what a point was in 7 regulation. This line has a definition as a point of 8 projection that extends at least one inch from the age of the 9 main beam or another tine. Now, what was published in the 10 Texas Register for public comment did not include the last 11 three words, "or another tine." That was inadvertent and we 12 do want to give credit if a deer's antlers has a kicker tine 13 off of one of the other main tines. So we would also ask that 14 you also consider this amendment. 15 I'm going to go through a series of slides 16 briefly that show which deer would be legal as defined in our 17 proposal and also which deer would not be legal. The previous 18 slide, this is a deer that's legal because it has at least one 19 branched antler, in fact, it has two unbranched antlers. This 20 buck is also legal because it meets the same criteria which is 21 one unbranched antler. This buck is legal because it has an 22 inside spread of 13 inches. In a couple of minutes I'll show 23 you how we determine that. This deer would be legal it has 24 six points or more on one antler. You can see the deer's left 25 antler has six points on it. This deer is the deer we were ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 21 1 trying to protect. It would not be a legal buck as defined by 2 our proposal because it has no unbranched antler, its inside 3 spread between the main beam is not 13 inches or greater and 4 it has no antler with six points. Now, why did we choose a 5 13-inch spread? This is meat of our proposal because this one 6 criteria is what protects the animals we want to get into the 7 older age class. Our wildlife division staff look at our 8 statewide age, weight and antler data and what we saw in the 9 Post Oak Savannah eco region, which is the region we are 10 talking about, we saw that deer that were buck deer that were 11 three and a half years old had an average of a 13.2-inch 12 inside spread. In addition, our wildlife biologist knew that 13 the average spread from ear tip to ear tip on white-tail bucks 14 in this area is approximately 13 inches. Therefore by 15 choosing 13 inches we basically have our buck deer out there 16 that are carrying a ruler around that our head that are 17 hunters can use to measure or compare the antlers to. In 18 other words, if the antlers exceed the width of the ear tip to 19 ear tip spread, then they can feel assured that it's legal for 20 harvest. I'm going to get a little bit more detailed and show 21 you deer that would be protected by this proposal if it had 22 been in effect. This is the year 2000 data. You'll see that 23 these bars here represent spreads of year and half old deer 24 and the frequency in the harvest basically all year and a half 25 old have been protected because they did not meet the 13-inch ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 22 1 spread with the exception of those deer that had unbranched 2 antlers or possibly six points. As we move in the 3 two-year-old age class you'll see that most two year olds are 4 still protected but the upper end two year olds would be legal 5 for harvest because they do have 13-inch spreads or greater. 6 By the time we get to three years old we get hit the first age 7 class where most of this age class of animals is legal for 8 harvest but still some of the bottom end three year olds would 9 be protected. And then when we reach four year olds and older 10 basically all these deer are legal most four year old deer or 11 older have at least a 13-inch inside spread. One thing to 12 note as we get to three and four-year-old animals you'll 13 notice that their frequency decreases dramatically. It's a 14 symptom of the problem in the area. There are very few of 15 these animals out there. Why did we choose six points or 16 better on one antler? Basically we were giving the hunter the 17 advantage and that is if this hunter looked out there and saw 18 a buck that had six points on one antler, he would not have to 19 do any further evaluation. In fact, when we look at our 20 harvest data from the year 2000, we see that only 2.9 percent 21 of the bucks actually have six points or greater. In fact, 22 when we looked even closer we realized of that 2.9 percent 23 there was only one animal that did not already meet the 24 13-inch minimum. So in essence by giving the hunter this 25 advantage, they're going to have a negligible impact because ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 23 1 these animals really rarely exist out there. 2 We're talking about hunting pressure and 3 shifting hunting pressure. This graph depicts the percent by 4 each age class in the buck harvest by eco region. We are 5 focusing on the bottom bar down there which is the Post Oak 6 Savannah eco region. The red bar indicates year and a half 7 olds in the harvest, the yellow two and a half, and so on. 8 You'll notice that the Post Oak Savannah has the most intense 9 hunting pressure in the State. With 43 percent of the bucks 10 in that year being year and a half old bucks. Now, remember 11 that 43 percent and focus down a little bit more. We're going 12 to look at these six counties that are in this Post Oak 13 Savannah eco region. We have several years of data. That's 14 supposed to load up. If it doesn't, I know it by memory so 15 I'm not going to let it rattle me. Remember 43 percent for 16 the Post Oak Savannah which was the most intensively harvested 17 area of the State. When we looked at data from these six 18 counties we saw that the percent year and a half olds in the 19 harvest was actually 53 percent. So even more intense. Heavy 20 hunting pressure on bucks in this area. This regulation would 21 have protected 65 percent of the bucks that were harvested in 22 these six counties in the 2001 hunting season. Now, what we 23 want to remember is this will be a temporary reduction in 24 harvests as we shift those animals to the older age class. On 25 the left is a graph that depicts the actual right now with ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 24 1 that 53 percent showing and if this regulation were adopted we 2 would move those animals in the older age class so we would 3 expect a temporary reduction but we feel like we would recoup 4 most of that harvest by the time those animals got to three 5 and four years old. 6 Is the one buck limit really protecting the 7 wrong segment of the yearling age class? Our biologist asked 8 themselves these questions. Looking again at the slide that 9 we've seen those hunting pressure in South Texas and Edwards 10 Plateau and Post Oak Savannah. We'll note that hunting 11 pressure on yearling bucks is low in South Texas and Edwards 12 Plateau as opposed to the Post Oak Savannah. When we looked 13 at number of antler points on year and a half old deer only, 14 now, we're only focusing on year and a half old deer, notice 15 that in South Texas and Edwards Plateau over 50 percent of the 16 yearling deer, year and a half old deer that are harvested are 17 spike antlered bucks. These counties are two and three buck 18 counties. If you look down in the Post Oak Savannah and Piney 19 Woods you'll note that less than 20 percent of our year and a 20 half old deer, even though we shoot a lot of them, are spike 21 antlered bucks. We do not feel that this is an indication of 22 the prevalence of spikes in the population but rather it's 23 hunter selectivity possibly driven by buck bag limits. In the 24 Post Oak Savannah and most of the Piney Woods, you have a one 25 buck bag limit. We feel like hunters, although they can't be ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 25 1 very selective when they're out there harvesting deer, they're 2 harvesting the multipointed animals, possibly artificially 3 protecting spike deer because they do not want to use they're 4 one buck tag on a spike deer. In 1991, '92 and '93 we did a 5 breeding chronology study statewide to determine if our does 6 were getting breed and when. We found out that our does do 7 get breed. But more importantly we found out breeding season 8 lengths and if you'll look at this graft especially the bottom 9 two bars, you'll notice the Post Oak Savannah has the longest 10 breeding season length of any ecological area in the State of 11 Texas. If we focus on down those 26 experimental counties 12 which have even higher harvest pressure, our breeding season 13 length expands even more. This is not surprising if you're 14 familiar with research that is done that shows that when year 15 and a half of old deer or even other cervids such as elk do 16 most of the breeding because the absence of older animals, 17 breeding season lengths are longer. There's several reasons. 18 Some of that deals with breeding behavior and courtship 19 behavior. You also have dispersal of yearling males out of 20 their home range right before the breeding season. And it may 21 even be a factor just a numbers game. When you have heavy 22 harvest pressure you have fewer bucks to breed those does. 23 But the conclusions in the study are basically when you have 24 that situation occurring, your breeding season is much longer 25 and there are negative implications associated with that, ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 26 1 primarily dealing with fawn recruitment and survival. You 2 would like to have all your fawns hit the ground in an very 3 tight time frame at an opportune time and when you expand that 4 breeding season, you put them down there at less opportune 5 times and you also expose them to more predation of mortality 6 so that further exacerbates the problem because you're putting 7 fewer bucks back into the population. 8 I would be remiss if I didn't mention a couple 9 of issues that have been brought to us. The primary issue 10 that has been mentioned is the inability of hunters to judge 11 spread correctly. Particularly youth. We want to make sure 12 that that doesn't occur. We feel like we can adequately 13 address this issue by developing a program to educate hunters. 14 One way to do that and by your tablets this morning we left 15 these little wallet cards. It's a prototype that if this 16 regulation were adopted we would print up thousands of these 17 and basically saturate the countryside anywhere we thought 18 hunters or landowners might show up in this area. This would 19 just be one tool in addition because we have a staff member in 20 each county. They would hit the road immediately using the 21 co-op network to inform our co-ops and then realizing that 22 everyone is not a co-op member, we'd also go outside of that 23 network to basically get ahold of every hunter or landowner we 24 could find in the area and around the area to educate them on 25 how to judge which bucks are legal and which are not. The ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 27 1 other issue is actually one that we would like to see occur 2 possibly and that is if we increase the number of bucks in the 3 older age classes, we may shift the buck harvest away from the 4 poor quality yearling buck. Remember these are one buck 5 counties. If we move those bucks into the older age class, 6 then we expect that hunters might want to even retain that tag 7 even longer to hunt mature bucks and thereby artificially 8 protecting the spike antler bucks. So if this situation 9 occurred it's entirely conceivable that down the road we could 10 propose a two buck bag limit in these counties where one buck 11 must have an unbranched antler. So we would add -- we would 12 go from a one buck bag and two buck bag and also solve some of 13 our biological problems. 14 In addition, we feel like hunter expectations 15 will go up. We'll put more adult bucks out there and there's 16 not going to be a race just to get your buck. We feel like 17 the hunting experience will be improved. We file like this is 18 going to stimulate hunting activity in this area and actually 19 may increase hunter days. The bottom line is we are trying to 20 protect the buck in the foreground, the one in the middle, the 21 small antlered yearling bucks. We don't want that to be the 22 primary component in our buck population so that we can put 23 more deer like that are in the background on the ground so 24 that hunters will have a more enjoyable experience, we can 25 stimulate hunting activity and possibly increase bag limit all ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 28 1 the while doing a benefit to the deer herd out there. 2 I do have comments from the public comment 3 period on this proposal. Basically there were 684 comments in 4 favor of this proposal. There with were 166 opposed to, that 5 breaks down to basically 80 percent for and 20 percent against 6 and I'll turn it back over to Dr. Graham. 7 DR. GRAHAM: Chairman Fitzsimons, do you want 8 to talk about this one now or move on to other proposals? 9 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: Well, this has been the 10 subject of a lot of work and discussion are there any 11 questions regarding -- 12 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: Are you proposing we 13 adopt a new regulation tomorrow or that we go into a public 14 hearing process? 15 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMMONS: The public hearing 16 process is finished and I was fortunate to go to one of them 17 and it's a good experience if you're never been to one, 18 especially in La Grange. The proposal is that it be referred 19 to Commission action tomorrow. 20 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: I recommend both of you on 21 the cutting edge of a very innovative approach, but I will say 22 the key to this will be education because I can see if the 23 public is not aware of the standard we could have some 24 mishaps. But I think it's great. 25 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: Chairman? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 29 1 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: I also want to commend you-all 2 for the hard work that everybody has put into this over a long 3 period of time. And I want to say here that frankly in the 4 past I've been diffident about moving into this area because I 5 tend to believe that the landowners should go ahead and make 6 their own regulations. I do think that this is an unusual 7 situation and presents an unusual opportunity. I think the 8 three-year experimental nature of this proposal gives me great 9 comfort that if this doesn't -- if the law of unintended 10 consequences kicks in somehow or something that we're not in a 11 bind, that we have a way to either correct or end what we're 12 planning on doing. And with that in mind, I'm very 13 comfortable with going forward and very interested in how it 14 works out and I think we should all be paying close attention 15 to this. We have a lot to were learn, I suspect. 16 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: Having seen this 17 presentation now I think four times, I finally understand it. 18 If I would be allowed an editorial comment, your work and Bob 19 Carroll's work changed my mind. I started out following my 20 philosophy of the people that don't want to do what they 21 should be doing to improve their herd, that's their business 22 and those that have plenty of tools in the toolbox for the 23 others to do that. What changed my mind, not only the 24 experimental nature but the fact that -- and then I guess I 25 look at the world pretty simply, two bucks is better than one. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 30 1 And as I've asked on numerous occasions what other way can we 2 get these people from a one buck bag limit to a two buck bag 3 limit and no one has come up with another proposal that makes 4 any sense that will increase the hunter opportunity and get 5 them from one to two. And frankly that's enough reason for 6 me. 7 Any other questions? It's a lot of work and 8 thank you for all that work. 9 DR. GRAHAM: Still have other components here 10 that I wanted to also thank Clayton for stepping in. Bob, who 11 has worked very hard on this regrets he can't be here today. 12 He broke his ankle I think thinking he was a teenager climbing 13 a ladder to cut down trees and fell and hurt his ankle 14 seriously but he's worked very hard on this and I would 15 appreciate his efforts. I'll go through the rest of the 16 proposals rather quickly. 17 It is illegal to use dogs to hunt deer anywhere 18 in Texas. Currently however up to two dogs can be used to 19 trail wounded deer in all of Texas except the far eastern 20 counties where trailing use is prohibited. Field staff and 21 wildlife and law enforcement divisions are confident that that 22 trailing prohibition is no longer needed in these 11 counties 23 in yellow and therefore we propose to allow the use of no more 24 than two dogs to trail wounded deer and in Northeast Texas. 25 Ninety-seven of the public comments were in favor of this ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 31 1 proposal and 77 were opposed. 2 When we revised the managed land deer permits 3 last year we created two unintended and undesirable conditions 4 of level two properties. We precluded the harvest with guns 5 spikes deer in the early season and we precluded archers from 6 being able to harvest any buck during the early season which 7 is archery only in the surrounding properties. Not being able 8 to harvest spikes when hunting does with guns is a problem 9 because as we all know, some spikes are mistakenly taken. 10 This proposal to allow spikes to be taken or legally harvested 11 corrects the problem. One hundred and forty of the comments 12 on this -- on this particular proposal were in favor and 33 13 were against. Allowing bucks to be harvested by archers on 14 MLD properties, the Level 2 properties would make those 15 properties consistent with adjacent properties. And on that 16 particular part of the proposal the public comments were 148 17 for and 20 opposed. The current regs for these counties in 18 the northern part of the State allow the harvest of does for 19 16 days starting from the beginning of the general season. 20 Doe harvest however in this area remains fairly conservative 21 and we have determined that populations could sustain 22 additional harvest in all these counties except for Hall 23 County in red which was added to the original list by mistake. 24 Consequently, we proposed to extend the number of doe days in 25 the 16 yellow counties by establishing the season to run from ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 32 1 the opening day through the Sunday following Thanksgiving. A 2 hundred and thirty-five of the comments were for this, 32 were 3 against. 4 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Excuse me. When would the 5 bucks being in the rut in that area as compared to doe suit -- 6 would the rut typically be after the end of the doe season or 7 not? 8 DR. GRAHAM: Since I've got the expert here, 9 I'll let Clayton answer that. 10 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: If you don't know, that's 11 fine. 12 MR. WOLF: I don't know. I don't have that 13 with me, but we've got it upstairs. We can get back with you. 14 I would suspect that the doe seasons would not precede the 15 rut. 16 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: I kind have been an 17 advocate for not killing bred does. The doe season should be 18 earlier. I just wondered how this would tie into something 19 like that. That's all right. 20 MR. WOLF: Well, when we found our breeding 21 chronology study that basically all the does are going to get 22 bred out there so the harvest of bred does is inevitable. 23 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Unless the doe season 24 preceded the rut. 25 MR. WOLF: That's true. That's true. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 33 1 DR. GRAHAM: When we created the youth only 2 season last year we again incorrectly allowed unrestricted 3 antlerless harvest during the youth only portion of the 4 season, late season in some counties where antlerless harvest 5 has been and should continue to be restricted by the issuance 6 of doe permits. The leading the phrase in no TPWD issued 7 permits as required will correct this oversight. One hundred 8 eighteen people commented in favor of this, 63 commented in 9 opposition. 10 We would like to remove the requirement that an 11 unskinned head be retained for white-tail deer. The reg was 12 created to be consistent with antelope regulations where it's 13 required in order to determine the sex of harvested animals. 14 We want to remove the requirement for white-tail deer because 15 some no such pelage differences between the sexes exist for 16 white-tail deer. Some hunters were concerned that hair could 17 contaminate meat and some hunters would like to tape their 18 animals in the field to avoid hair slippage and therefore 19 preserve the cape for taxidermic purposes. Note that a 20 skinned head would still be required for white-tail deer. A 21 hundred fifty-nine of the comments were in support, 29 22 against. 23 The first of the turkey proposals is to provide 24 a fall season in Hill County where spring -- a spring season 25 is currently open. One hundred forty-six were in favor of ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 34 1 this proposal, ten were opposed. The second is to provide a 2 spring season for eastern wild turkey in the four counties in 3 yellow here where the populations are strong and sufficient 4 enough to sustain additional hunting harvest. One hundred 5 thirty-five were in favor, nine were opposed. And the last 6 statewide proposal is from law enforcement and it would 7 require hunters to fill out a tag log on the back of the 8 hunting license. The log itself is specifically for 9 white-tail deer and this requirement is designed to help law 10 enforcement enforce deer bag limits and simplify the language 11 on the white-tail deer tags that will be found on the new and 12 improved hunting license. One hundred fifty-six were if favor 13 of this and 51 were against. The second part of this item is 14 the -- deals with the legislative rules review required by the 15 Government Code which requires the agency to review each of 16 its regulations at least once every four years and to readopt 17 each regulation as is, readopt it with amendments or repeal 18 it. The statute further requires that a review of the rule 19 must include an assessment of whether the reasons for 20 initially adopting the rule continue to exist. At the January 21 meeting the Regulations Committee authorized staff to publish 22 a notice of intent to review affecting Chapter 565, the 23 wildlife portion. To date staff have received no public 24 comment concerning the rule review. However, the review 25 process -- during the review process staff identified three ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 35 1 regulations for which the original justification is unclear. 2 The regulations in question established a closed season for 3 game animals, game birds and furbearing animals in the state 4 owned riverbeds in Dimmitt, Uvalde, and Zavala Counties. 5 Staff therefore seeks an authorization to publish amendments 6 to those regulations to set a sunset date on their 7 effectiveness while conducting investigations to determine if 8 the rules should be retained. That concludes the wildlife 9 portion of the statewide and if there are any other questions 10 I would be glad to try to address them before Phil comes up. 11 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: Any other questions for 12 Gary or Clayton? Thank you very much. And Phil Durocher, I 13 think you're next up. 14 MR. DUROCHER: Mr. Chairman, Commissioners -- 15 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: I'm sorry, I failed to -- 16 if there are no further questions, discussions, without 17 objection I place this item on the Thursday Commission meeting 18 agenda for public comments and action. Excuse me, Phil. 19 MR. DUROCHER: That's okay. Mr. Chairman, 20 Commissioners, I'm Phil Durocher, the Director of the Inland 21 Fisheries Division. The fisheries -- inland has eight 22 proposals and I'm going to go through these very briefly. 23 You've heard these three or four times already before this 24 meeting. The first proposal deals with, and these are relate 25 to species on specific lakes. The first one deals with Purtis ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 36 1 Creek State Park Lake in Henderson County. What we're 2 recommending here is to change the regulation for sunfish from 3 a 7-inch minimum and 25 fish daily bag to no minimum and no 4 daily bag. This was in experiment we conducted Purtis Creek 5 to see if we could increase the sunfish fishing with a minimum 6 lake limit. We're asking that the regulation go back to the 7 statewide standard. Most of the public comments that we 8 received on our web survey, you can see here for this 9 particular proposal we had 74 for and nobody against. The 10 second one at Purtis -- I mean, Coleto Creek in Goliad and 11 Victoria County, we're proposing to change the regulation for 12 red drum from 20 to 28-inch reserve slot limit to a 20-inch 13 minimum. Daily bag limit would remain at three. What we're 14 doing here is putting this in line with the rest of the 15 limits. We had 62 people that spoke for and those that spoke 16 against it apparently were red drum did not spawn in 17 freshwater and therefore it's critical that we protect every 18 fish that we stock in those lakes. 19 At Gibbons Creek Reservoir, Grimes County, 20 2,500 acres, change the limit for largemouth bass from catch 21 and release only to a 14 to 24-inch slot limit. And we are 22 doing this at the request of the municipal power agent who 23 owns the reservoir. They're trying to increase the interest 24 and increase fishing and delay and we would we support their 25 proposal. Public comments for 70 I mean and against nine ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 37 1 primarily from the web survey. 2 Brushy Creek Lake, a new lake being built in 3 Williamson County. We're asking to open the lake with an 4 18-inch minimum length limit for largemouth bass and our goal 5 here as always we open a new lake to protect the populations 6 from initial overharvest which always -- almost always happens 7 in a new reservoir when it's opened to fish. Again we had 8 comment from the public 60 for and 10 against. 9 The next proposal Lake Alan Henry in Garza 10 County 2,220 acres. We're asking to change the limit for 11 largemouth bass from an 18-inch minimum where it currently is 12 to a no minimum length limit, five fish bags only two fish can 13 be less than 18 inches. We hope that this regulation acts 14 very similarly to what we get with the slot limit. We need to 15 get some of the small fish removed from that lake. This is 16 another approach we're trying to see if we can do this without 17 imposing a slot limit on the lake. The public comments 18 primarily through the web site 54 for and 12 against. Those 19 people against it were concerned about confusion and how they 20 would be able to -- what kind of confusion this would cause to 21 the anglers. We have this regulation on effect at Lake O.H. 22 Ivie not far from here and it seems to be working fairly well. 23 The next proposal is for Lake Proctor in 24 Comanche County, 4,600-acre reservoir. We're asking to change 25 the length limit on largemouth bass from 14-inch minimum to a ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 38 1 16-inch minimum. That lake had really low water levels for a 2 number of years and last spring we caught a lot of water. We 3 have a tremendous year class of fish coming on there. And 4 we're trying to protect those fish to kind of even off the ups 5 and downs of fishing in that reservoir. Public comments we 6 had 59 for and 11 against. The primary opponents of this were 7 bass clubs who are concerned about their ability to hold bass 8 tournaments on lakes with any regulation other than the 9 statewide minimum. 10 And the last two proposals are for Possum 11 Kingdom Reservoir and these proposals we're making to help 12 speed the recovery of the fisheries in that lake. Those 13 fisheries were somewhat damaged by last year's occurrence of 14 the golden algae. Let me just say Mother Nature is doing a 15 wonderful job for us. Those fisheries are recovering 16 exceedingly well and we want to impose some regulations here 17 to help speed up that recovery and we're going to come back to 18 you once we get the populations back to where they were before 19 the fish kill. We'll probably come back to you and have these 20 regulations change to what they were before. The first one is 21 to change the limit on largemouth bass from 14-inch minimum 22 which is statewide standard to a 16-inch minimum. We've got a 23 tremendous year class of young fish coming on in that lake and 24 we would like to protect them at least for another year so we 25 will have some brood fish out there to help that recovery ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 39 1 effort. Comments again we had -- at the public hearing today 2 we had three people that spoke against it and they were 3 primarily bass club people who were concerned about being able 4 to hold bass tournaments on the lake under the 16-inch 5 minimum. And on our web survey we had 65 for and 17 against. 6 And the last proposal for Possum Kingdom is to change the 7 daily bag limit on striped bass from five to two fish per day. 8 We would maintain the 18-inch minimum lake limit and our goal 9 here is to assist with the recovery of that population. We 10 had several people that spoke against it that were concerned 11 about what would happen with lowering the limit. And on our 12 web survey 56 people for, 14 against. And let me just say 13 striped bass did not reproduce in Possum Kingdom. Every fish 14 that is there that is available to the anglers are fish that 15 we stock. We have a good population of large fish, apparently 16 a lot of them were able to escape the golden algae and there's 17 fish there available but we don't have any young fish. The 18 fish we stocked there last year we lost. We had some problems 19 at our hatchery producing any stripers. So we want to protect 20 those fish until we can stock enough fish to build that 21 population back up again without putting people completely out 22 of business. There was some recommendation that we completely 23 eliminate harvest but we don't think that's necessary. We 24 would like the guides to be able to continue to work there at 25 a lower level until we can build that population. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 40 1 With that, that ends our recommendations and we 2 would recommend to the Commission that these proposals be 3 approved without change. I would be willing to answer any 4 questions. 5 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: Any questions for Phil on 6 inland fishery? 7 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: I have a comment. Was it just 8 a year ago, I think, that Possum Kingdom was facing a pretty 9 unhappy situation. 10 MR. DUROCHER: Yes, ma'am, there was a lot of 11 concern there. We didn't really know exactly what impact the 12 golden algae had had. It had a fairly substantial impact on 13 the fish populations but Mother Nature has a way of -- it 14 didn't kill all the fish. Mother Nature has a way of filling 15 up these gaps. We've got some really strong year classes of 16 fish coming on. We just want to protect them to get that 17 thing back to where it was as quickly as we possibly can. 18 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Well, once again, I'm 19 impressed with Mother Nature and with you. 20 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: Mother Nature gets a lot 21 of help from our staff. 22 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: That's right. 23 MR. DUROCHER: I appreciate it. 24 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: Thank you, Phil. Next on 25 this item is Hal Osburn, Coastal Fisheries. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 41 1 MR. OSBURN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, 2 Commissioners, I'm Hal Osburn, Coastal Fisheries Division 3 Director. I would like to brief you today on the proposed 4 changes to the statewide hunting and fishing proclamation 5 regarding Coastal. Texas currently has a reciprocal license 6 agreement with Louisiana that allows anglers to legally fish 7 in common boundary waters such as Toledo Bend Reservoir and 8 Sabine Lake with either a Texas or a Louisiana license. I 9 want to make it clear that none of the proposals changes that 10 long-standing agreement. The only proposed rule change is to 11 clarify that all fish landed in Texas or possessed on Texas 12 waters must conform to the Texas size and bag limits. In 13 fact, Louisiana also has this same rule, so if you land in 14 Louisiana you have to conform to their size and bag limits. 15 There are a number of differences between Texas and Louisiana. 16 Texas is more conservative on some species, Louisiana is more 17 conservative on others such as black drum. 18 One of the concerns that has developed with the 19 reciprocal agreement particularly in Sabine Lake is that it 20 has been interpreted to allow anglers to take in the same day 21 both a Texas and a Louisiana limit of fish. This can 22 obviously lead to excessive harvest and it's certainly an 23 inequity for all the other Texas anglers who are restricted to 24 just the Texas limit throughout the State. 25 Our survey data indicates there is currently ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 42 1 not a high level of this double tripping, but there is 2 definitely an upward trend. We have seen that fishing 3 pressure on Sabine Lake is now at all time highs both for 4 recreational, private boats, and guided trips. An example of 5 the resource concerns that this can produce is illustrated 6 with the flounder. Because Louisiana has no minimum size 7 limit, over 23 percent of the flounder harvested in Sabine 8 Lake are under the Texas 14-inch size limit which is about 9 200 percent higher than the other Texas bays. Texas flounder 10 stocks need to be rebuilt. We've taken some action in the 11 last half decade to do that and the loss of the spawning 12 potential of the small flounder before they have had a chance 13 to spawn is not helpful to that recovery. Certainly not as 14 dramatic a problem for trout and red drum but the more liberal 15 size and bag limits in Louisiana do work against the Texas 16 management strategy which is to increase the quality of the 17 fish harvested as well a precautionary approach for long-term 18 sustainability for the stocks. 19 Staff believes that the proposed rule would 20 benefit the State by reestablishing equity among all the Texas 21 anglers and guides and by improving our marine fish 22 populations in a number of areas. In addition, law 23 enforcement would be enhanced. We believe the anglers would 24 be less confused about their landing limits and Texas would be 25 consistent not only with Louisiana but also Mississippi, ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 43 1 Alabama and Florida, all of whom have similar handling laws. 2 Our initial scoping of this issue last year indicated strong 3 support from folks that we interviewed at boat ramps around 4 Sabine Lake. Since then, of course, published it in the 5 Register and had an opportunity for more comments. We have 6 received petitions with numerous signatures both for and 7 against. Public hearings produced a majority of opposition 8 comments, while other sources such as e-mails, letters, and 9 telephone calls were mostly in favor. 10 Based on staff's findings of facts we recommend 11 no changes to the proposed rule except for some minor wording 12 changes in the proclamation to clarify your original intent. 13 That concludes my presentation. I'll be happy to answer any 14 questions. 15 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: Phil -- oh. 16 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Do or does Louisiana 17 permit a limit of Texas and Louisiana catch? 18 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: No, they do not. 19 MR. OSBURN: Only Louisiana. 20 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: They allow only the 21 Louisiana limit. 22 MR. OSBURN: That's correct. They have the law 23 that says all fish landed in Louisiana are presumed to 24 correspond to Texas -- Louisiana size and bag limits. 25 COMMISSIONER AVILA: We do not have a ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 44 1 reciprocal of that. 2 MR. OSBURN: No. And that's what we're trying 3 to clarify with this proposal. 4 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Is there any hope of 5 getting Louisiana to do anything with their bag limits? 6 MR. OSBURN: There's always hope. We've had 7 some ongoing discussions -- 8 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMMONS: Springs eternal. 9 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: I grew up in 10 Louisiana. 11 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: My momma's from Louisiana. 12 MR. OSBURN: You might want to ask Phil that 13 question. He's got more cajun in him -- 14 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: Spoken as a native, 15 there's no hope. 16 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: I felt like I had to ask 17 it. I understand. 18 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: Recognize Commission 19 Rising. 20 COMMISSIONER RISING: I would like to know -- I 21 know we probably have some data on the size distribution of 22 the speckled trout populations in Louisiana waters how that 23 compares to Texas with their lower size limit, do you have any 24 information? 25 MR. OSBURN: Absolutely. The average size in ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 45 1 Louisiana is quite a bit lower than the Texas. In fact, by 2 weight I think it's about a half as large. An average size 3 trout is about one pound in Louisiana and about two pounds in 4 Texas. When we -- we used to have a 12-inch size limit. When 5 we moved up over the last couple decades to the 15-inch, we've 6 seen a dramatic increase in the quality measured by size of 7 the fish. But at the same time we've also seen an increase in 8 the population numbers indicating that even those fish, those 9 small fish being returned to the water are spawning and 10 helping the population. 11 COMMISSIONER RISING: I had another question. 12 Under the current situation as it exists, is there anything 13 that would prevent an angler fishing in Louisiana or 14 Texas/Louisiana reciprocal waters from keeping, say, 50 15 12-inch flounder because I understand there's no bag limit in 16 Louisiana waters. 17 MR. OSBURN: Actually, I think they do have the 18 same bag limit of ten on flounder, but they have no size 19 limit. 20 COMMISSIONER RISING: They have no size limit. 21 MR. OSBURN: They could keep 10 9-inch 22 flounder. 23 COMMISSIONER RISING: They could keep 20 if 24 they include the Texas? 25 MR. OSBURN: Right now they can keep 10 at 14 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 46 1 and keep 10 at any size. 2 COMMISSIONER RISING: That's per person. 3 MR. OSBURN: That's per person per day. 4 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Is it my understanding -- 5 May I speak? 6 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMMONS: Madame Chair, always. 7 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: -- that some of the guides in 8 that area are advertising sort of meat wagon -- 9 MR. OSBURN: There has been -- you know, guides 10 on the coast have tripled in the last 20 years. We've seen 11 the same phenomena at Sabine Lake. There's probably only a 12 couple of dozen guides there but it's increased over the years 13 from just a handful. Some of the guides have had web sites 14 that did advertise to the eastern clientele that come enjoy 15 the Sabine Lake meat run and certainly that was one of the 16 concerns by some of the anglers in that area that brought this 17 to the agency's attention. If you'll recall about a year and 18 a half ago we had the petition from a guide to basically adopt 19 this same rule and we wanted to scope it better and having 20 done that, we concur with his concerns. 21 COMMISSIONER RISING: I had one additional 22 question. I understand that some of the creel surveys that we 23 obtained really show a fairly low number of actual anglers 24 that will admit to keeping a Louisiana limit. Do you feel 25 that that accurately reflects what's actually going on? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 47 1 MR. OSBURN: Well, with -- anytime you have a 2 reporting system that depends on people voluntarily showing 3 you their fish there can be avoidance and certainly if 4 they're -- and there's still confusion on the lake about 5 whether two bag limits are allowed. I think there certainly 6 could be some avoidance by those people who think they may be 7 having access numbers of fish and don't want to show those. 8 But I will say even the few surveys that we've indicated on 9 our creel surveys of this double tripping when you expand that 10 out to our harvest estimate, it indicates hundreds of trips 11 and that definitely would be a minimum estimate. 12 COMMISSIONER RISING: And it could definitely 13 have a positive impact on our flounder fishery? 14 MR. OSBURN: Oh, absolutely. 15 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMMONS: Any other questions for 16 Hal on this? 17 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: I have a comment. I think our 18 new commissioner has done his homework. Thank you very much 19 for your help in this -- you're area. 20 COMMISSIONER RISING: Neck of the woods. 21 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Your neck of the woods. You 22 seem to know the issue and that's a big help. 23 MR. OSBURN: It has been. Thank you. 24 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: Any other comments from 25 Commissioners regarding any of these issues? Hearing none, ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 48 1 there's no further questions or discussions, without objection 2 I'll place this item on the Thursday Commission meeting agenda 3 for further comments and action. 4 Our next item. Robin, are you back there in 5 the dark? All right. Statewide Oyster Fishery 6 Proclamation/Rule Review. 7 MR. RIECHERS: Chairman Fitzsimons, 8 Commissioners, my name is Robin Riechers and I'm the 9 management director of the Coastal Fisheries Division. This 10 item is the rules review of Chapter 58, Subchapter A of the 11 Oyster Fishery Proclamation. Of course, this is the rule 12 review required by Government Code Section 2001.039 Chapter A 13 rule review every four years. The notice of review was 14 published in the Texas Register in February and is before you 15 today as an action item or adoption item. 16 As you remember, of course, in January and as 17 Bob mentioned to you earlier today in the Commission Charges, 18 we just added to this chapter some oyster lease provisions as 19 required by legislation. At that same time we took the 20 opportunity to make some clarifications in existing language 21 to just clean up items. So with that, we really didn't expect 22 that we would receive a lot of public comment and to date we 23 have received zero comments regarding this rule review. 24 As a side-bar to that, I will tell you that 25 based on those oyster lease rules that we passed, the ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 49 1 March 1st was the deadline for all the renewals of those 2 oyster leases, all 43 oyster leases were renewed on time under 3 the new contractual guidelines and the new fees. So you'll be 4 happy to note that that all got taken care of. Given that we 5 had just dealt with this and had no provisions or no comment 6 at this time, we would recommend that there is need for the 7 existing proclamation still, so what we would recommend for 8 your consideration is readoption of Subchapter A of the Oyster 9 Fishery Proclamation without any changes. Any questions? 10 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: Robin, thank you. Any 11 questions for Robin? If there are no further questions, 12 without objection I'll place this item on the Thursday 13 Commission meeting agenda for public comment and action. And 14 seeing the clock and the lunch hour, I'd like to entertain a 15 motion we recess yet again and reconvene. 16 COMMISSIONER AVILA: So move. 17 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Second. 18 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Well, this -- I hope I get 19 this right. This might be a little bit complicated. We want 20 to recess for lunch, we want open the Conservation Committee, 21 then we want to go into Executive Session. 22 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: We'll recess from Regs at 23 12:30. 24 (Regulations Committee recessed at 12:30 to 25 begin Executive Session.) ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 50 1 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: We will now break for 2 Executive Session, therefore, I would like to announce that 3 pursuant to the requirements of Chapter 551 Government Code 4 referred to as the Openings Meeting Law, an Executive Session 5 will be held at this time for the purpose of consideration of 6 Section 551.072 of the Texas Open Meetings Act regarding real 7 estate matters. Okay. 8 (Regulations Committee reconvened at 2:00 p.m.) 9 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: We're reconvening the 10 Regulations Committee. Joseph, here's your gavel. We're 11 going to wear it out. 12 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: Thank you, Madame Chair, 13 and I believe we are picking up the Regulations Committee at 14 2:00 p.m. And with Item 5, Public Lands Proclamation for 15 2002-2003. Herb Kothmann, come forward, please. 16 MR. KOTHMANN: Thank you. 17 MR. COOK: Herb. 18 MR. KOTHMANN: I'm ready. 19 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: Yes, sir. 20 MR. KOTHMANN: Mr. Chairman, members of the 21 Regulations Committee, my name is Herb Kothmann. I'm Director 22 of Public Hunts for the Department. I'll be presenting items 23 on the proposed amendments to the Public Lands Proclamation, 24 also the proposed 2002, 2003 public hunts on state parks and 25 the proposed establishment of an open hunting season on public ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 51 1 hunting lands. 2 The first change to the Public Lands 3 Proclamation would remove duplicate regulations concerning 4 public hunting fees. Currently our public hunting fees are 5 addressed in two proclamations, both the Public Lands 6 Proclamation and the Proclamation 3, Permits and Fees. Staff 7 proposes to remove all references to fee amounts in the Public 8 Lands Proclamation and to retain the complete and updated 9 listings of the fees in the Public Hunting Permits and Fees 10 Proclamation. 11 The second change proposed to the Public Lands 12 Proclamation would be to standardize and simplify the permit 13 requirements for hunting under an annual permit on our public 14 hunting lands. Currently we allow hunting of small game on 15 five national forest areas in East Texas under this $10 16 permit. Which on all of our other 252 public hunting units 17 serves strictly as a nonconsumptive permit. Sales of this $10 18 permit which was initially developed as a strictly 19 nonconsumptive permit have stayed at about 2,000 per year for 20 each of the past 15 years. And our survey of permitees 21 indicates that about or less than 500 people indicated they 22 hunted under the $10 permit for small game. And unfortunately 23 much of that activity occurred on sites where that hunting was 24 not authorized. We do sell about 45,000 of the $40 public 25 hunting permits each year. And to simplify the regulations ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 52 1 and remove this confusion, staff simply proposes to remove 2 this provision that we have had for hunting on U.S. Forest 3 Service areas for small game only and Forest Service has 4 indicate they do support this proposal. Let me back up. The 5 two proposed changes to Public Lands Proclamation were 6 published in the Texas Register. They are presented for 7 public comment at our 22 public hearings around the State and 8 also posted on our Internet web page. The only comments 9 received were on the proposal for the $10 permit revision and 10 the comments were 132 supporting the proposed action and 32 11 opposed to it. 12 On a proposed state park hunts staff recommends 13 public hunts on 43 units of the state park system in 2002, 14 2003 season. All of these 43 units were among the 45 parks on 15 which the Commission approved public hunts last season. The 16 two other parks are Arroyo, Colorado which has since been 17 transferred to the Wildlife Division and will be hunted as a 18 wildlife management area this season and the Dinosaur Valley 19 State Park on which field staff is not recommending a hunt 20 this year. I have a series of three slides here that list the 21 names of the 43 parks we are recommending for hunts this 22 coming season. Exhibit B on your agenda item list the 23 specific hunts proposed for each area. The legal species, the 24 type of permit to be required, the number of hunter positions 25 to be offered and restrictions on general visitation during ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 53 1 those hunt dates. The second slide lists another 17 of those 2 43. The proposed park hunts have received the signature 3 approve of all of our concerned field staff and headquarter 4 staff of the State Parks Division and the Wildlife Division. 5 The proposals for state park hunts have been posted on our 6 department's web page for more than a month. They were 7 presented at our 22 public hearings and to date we received 24 8 comments concerning the proposals, 21 in support and 3 in 9 opposition. This final slide indicates the last 12 of those 10 33 parks proposed for hunts. The proposed hunts would offer 11 approximately 2,043 drawn hunter positions this coming season. 12 And in addition to that there would be an abundance of 13 nondrawn hunts by annual permit and some by the $10 regular 14 permit for small game. 15 An open hunting season on all of our public 16 hunting lands must be established in order for public hunts to 17 be conducted. Chapter 62 and 81 of the Parks and Wildlife 18 Code authorizes the Commission to establish an open season on 19 these public hunting lands which include our state parks, 20 wildlife management areas, and our leased public hunting 21 lands. 22 Mr. Chairman, this concludes my presentation. 23 Do you have any questions? 24 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: I have no questions for 25 Herb. Anyone have any questions. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 54 1 COMMISSIONER WATSON: Herb, just as a matter of 2 information, when are you going to start hunting in Government 3 Canyon? 4 MR. KOTHMANN: We had hunted Government Canyon 5 in the past. We tried some big game hunts, at that time there 6 was concern about the archeological resources that had not 7 been identified and we restricted the hunters to the lower 8 part below the escarpment which is a very small portion of the 9 area. Those were not successful at that time. We did have 10 some interest in dove hunting and we offered dove hunting for 11 a couple of years. And there was one small opening near the 12 entrance, probably less than 15 acres, that everybody 13 concentrated on and it was really an unsafe situation. We'll 14 certainly look at the situation every year and see and now 15 maybe the archeological surveys have been overcome where we 16 could hunt the uplands for big game and maybe have some 17 additional open lands to hunt for dove. But at this time our 18 staff is not recommending hunting Government Canyon. I 19 certainly think there would be potential there for not only 20 deer and dove but possibly ferrel hog which have certainly 21 been a problem not only on that park but certainly on that 22 park have been a problem. 23 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: Herb, Government Canyon, 24 correct me if I'm wrong, is officially an SNA, right, a state 25 natural area to that not open yet so do you know normally -- ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 55 1 MR. KOTHMANN: The State Natural Area 2 designation does not necessarily preclude being used as a 3 hunting area. For instance Hill Country I think is a State 4 Natural Area. That designation does not preclude hunting. It 5 does place a few more restrictions on the types of activities 6 that we allow hunters or the general public to use out there 7 to employ. But certainly we are interested in hunting 8 Government Canyon or any other suitable site. We're squeezing 9 our turnips pretty hard out there trying to get more blood out 10 of them. 11 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: Any other questions for 12 Herb? Mr. Ramos? 13 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Maybe I misunderstood you. 14 Are you asking to designate an open hunting season? 15 MR. KOTHMANN: An open hunting season must be 16 designated by the Commission each year in order for us to be 17 able to hold hunts on any of these lands, yes. 18 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMMONS: Any other questions for 19 Herb. Hearing none, no further questions or discussion, 20 without objection I'll place this item on the Thursday 21 Commission meeting agenda for public comment and action. 22 Thank you, Herb. 23 MR. KOTHMANN: Thank you. 24 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: And next I believe is 25 Gary Graham trying to stand in for Vernon Bevill on a ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 56 1 Migratory Game Bird Proclamation. 2 MR. GRAHAM: This weekend -- I'm Gary Graham, 3 Director of the Wildlife Division. This weekend Dallas is a 4 nationwide meeting called North America Wildlife Conservation 5 meeting and a number of our staff are there including Vernon 6 and several others. It's a very important meeting Mr. Cook 7 and I will be going there in the next couple of days. And one 8 of the events of the meeting is our Commissioner Emeritus is 9 winning a award there. We're all proud of and our private 10 lands -- one of our private lands stewards award winners is 11 winning a national award there so it's a big deal and Vernon 12 is there today. 13 Standing in for him very capably will be Dave 14 Morrison our waterfowl leader who will give the presentation 15 today. 16 MR. MORRISON: Thank you, sir. As he said, my 17 name is Dave Morrison, I'm the waterfowl program leader and 18 today we're going to bring forth proposed changes to the 19 2002-2003 Migratory Game Bird Proclamation. This one. 20 Basically for next year there are very few 21 changes being proposed with the exception of adjustments for 22 the calendar. One exception is the changing of the sandhill 23 crane hunting in Zone C. This year we are going to recommend 24 moving that Zone C one week earlier and in the future open it 25 the Saturday nearest December the 20th. The other change ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 57 1 centers around the teal season. This year, provided that the 2 U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service give us a 16-day option, we're 3 going to recommend that the teal season open the second 4 Saturday in September. This should be understood that all 5 these seasons are predicated on U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service 6 approving the migratory game bird regulations at meetings 7 later this year. 8 With respect to the goose season in the West 9 Zone we're proposing that the both dark and light goose 10 seasons open on October 26th and run through February the 9th. 11 That's basically 107-day season and provides maximum days 12 allowable for us. The bag limit and possession limit remain 13 unchanged from last year. In the East Zone we're going to 14 propose that the light goose and dark goose season open on 15 October 26th and run through January 19th. The bag limit and 16 possession limit basically remain unchanged from last year 17 with 20 and daily bag limit for light geese and no possession 18 limit. Dark geese you can have no more than one Canada goose 19 in possession, no more than two white fronts. The possession 20 limit is twice the daily bag limit. This year the white goose 21 conservation order, the drafted environmental impact study has 22 been completed and a final rule is expected sometime before 23 the end of the fall. Barring any unforeseen circumstances, 24 we're basically going to recommend a season similar to last 25 year. And what that season is going to be is basically the ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 58 1 Monday after the regular goose season closes in both the West 2 Zone and the East Zone will begin the light goose conservation 3 order. And that would be on the February 10th in the West 4 Zone and on January 20th in the East Zone. During this 5 conservation order there are no bag limits for light geese. 6 Use of electronic calls are illegal. Shotgun plugs are not 7 required and the shooting hours have been extended to one-half 8 hour after sunset. For ducks, mergansers, and coots basically 9 the season starts that we are recommending is unchanged from 10 last year with the exception of adjustment for calendar dates. 11 I understand that these recommendations are based on a liberal 12 package. However, the stuff that we've been seeing come out 13 of Canada right now is not too promising and we would suspect 14 that we may be looking at more strict seasons for this coming 15 fall. I should also point out that the U.S. Fish and Wildlife 16 Service continues to discuss frameworks, basically the open 17 and closing dates. And at this juncture they're considering 18 moving the framework to the end of the January, the last 19 Sunday in January. Should the Fish and Wildlife Service take 20 action to put this in place then we'll certainly recommend the 21 season starts that we think is best for each respective zone. 22 As I mentioned, the duck season dates are 23 basically a mirror image and from last year, just calendar 24 adjustments that on the screen as you can see. These are 25 nothing more than adjusted from calendar from last year. Bag ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 59 1 limits again are the same as last year but, again, these bag 2 limits are based on a liberal package and right now we're 3 proposing a six-bird bag limit for ducks. For coots and 4 mergansers 15 and 5 respective. 5 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Dave, let me -- may I 6 interrupt here, Joseph? You said that we may be -- we are -- 7 last years was a liberal package, we may be going to what you 8 would now call a moderate package or is it a conservative 9 package? 10 MR. MORRISON: Basically -- I'm sorry. 11 Basically you're looking at a liberal to moderate restrictive 12 and very restrictive. And we're hoping that we'll at least 13 fall into moderate package which would basically be looking at 14 a 60-day season structure. Also a six-bird bag limit but 15 where the difference is in the six-bird bag limit is that 16 instead of killing two hens, ten mallard, you can only take 17 one hen mallard. So that's what we're hoping for but there is 18 all sorts of things flying out there. We're just not certain 19 where we're at and we won't know until July. 20 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMMONS: Until July. Go ahead. 21 MR. MORRISON: We also recommended extended 22 falconry season in the north and south duck zones. And 23 basically the falconry season would be from January 20th, 24 which is the day after the duck season closes to February the 25 3rd. We're not recommending a falconry season in the High ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 60 1 Plains Mallard Management Unit simply because all the days 2 allowable for migratory bird hunted are used up in other gun 3 seasons. The bag limit during that special falconry season 4 will be three migratory birds. 5 As I mentioned earlier, there is one change is 6 the sandhill crane hunting. This year we're recommending that 7 the sandhill crane hunting in Zone C open on December the 21st 8 and run through January the 19th. This is basically one week 9 earlier. We're also suggesting that in the future we run it 10 the Saturday nearest the 20th of December. The reason for 11 this is that it this year will give us some extra days of 12 hunting and in one year out of every five we would be able to 13 take advantage the full 37 days allotted to us by framework. 14 And, for example, this year we'll have a 30-day season rather 15 than 23-day season. So it's going to be advantageous to 16 people on the coast. 17 As a I mentioned, the teal season we're 18 recommending that we open on the second Saturday of September, 19 this year that would be on September 14th through the 29th 20 that we get a 16-day option. Now, then shuit bluing numbers 21 declined and we're offered a nine-day season, we would 22 recommend opening on September 21st. 23 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMMONS: Again, you won't know 24 that until July? 25 MR. MORRISON: That one we'll know a little bit ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 61 1 earlier because the framework has an early start framework and 2 we should know that probably by the June meeting. 3 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Was last the year's 4 approximately the same dates, I recall, the 16th. 5 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMMONS: September 15th to the 6 30th. 7 MR. MORRISON: That actually was the third. 8 That's the reason for this suggested change. That would have 9 been the third Saturday last year, this year it will be second 10 Saturday. Just the way the calendar flops. 11 COMMISSIONER RISING: Mr. Fitzsimons, I had a 12 question. Are we going to eliminate the canvasback 13 restriction this year as far as the limited -- I know last 14 year we had a limited window. Are we going to continue that 15 this year, do we know? 16 MR. MORRISON: Again, that will be decided when 17 they do to the May counts. That depending on canvasback 18 numbers are all tied to models. And should the model indicate 19 that we have sufficient canvasback for an entire season, then 20 there will be that. If the model suggests something 21 otherwise, that's going to be debated just like this season 22 within an season was debated last year. Again, that's 23 something that will be decided later on after the counts come 24 in from the north country. 25 COMMISSIONER RISING: Thank you. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 62 1 MR. MORRISON: The mourning dove season 2 basically the Wildlife Division is recommending the same 3 season length and bag limit that the Commission adopted last 4 year. This year September 1st happens to fall on a Sunday and 5 the proposal to open both the North and Central zone on 6 Sunday, September 1st. Basically this is consistent with 7 actions that have been taken in the past when September 1st 8 was on a Sunday. The season dates proposed are September 1 9 through October 30th in the North zone with a 15-bird bag 10 limit. The Central zone would open from September 1 and run 11 through October 29th. The winter segment would open on 12 December 26 and conclude on January the 5th. And South zone 13 the season will be similar to last year with an open date of 14 September the 20th and run until November the 30th with the 15 winter season opened on December the 21st through January the 16 14th. Both the Central and North zone would have a 12-bird 17 bag limit. 18 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Mr. Fitzsimons? 19 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: Yes, sir. 20 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Did we get any input on 21 the change in the dove season in the Central zone? 22 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: With the long split? 23 MR. MORRISON: The discussions that I had with 24 Jay Roberson and Vernon Bevill just yesterday as a matter of 25 fact, very few comments came in either way with respect to ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 63 1 that. That there was six of one and a half a dozen of the 2 other. They will be monitoring that very closely before we 3 come with the final presentation on these rules. 4 CHAIRMAN ANGELO: I personally had a little 5 limited input but it was favorable. 6 MR. MORRISON: From what they tell me, they 7 actually got more positive than negative but there was so few 8 they really didn't have a feel for it. 9 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMMONS: South Texas was 10 positive. Because there were birds this time. 11 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Very positive. 12 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMMONS: Go ahead, Dave. You're 13 being interrupted, I apologize. 14 MR. MORRISON: For special white-wing dove 15 season we're proposing a one-week delay in the opening. This 16 recommendation is consistent with past policies when September 17 the 1st fell on a Sunday and what we're recommending this year 18 is that we open on September 7th and 8th. 19 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMMONS: On white wing now? 20 MR. MORRISON: Yes, sir, I'm sorry. Did I hit 21 that button? September 7th and 8th and September 14th and 22 15th. And the reason for this is that we can open on 23 September 1st which is a Sunday and opening the 1st and the 24 2nd and then the following 7th and 8th, but this is not 25 consistent with what we've done in the past so we are ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 64 1 recommending the 7th and 8th and 14th and 15th. 2 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: Those are Saturdays and 3 Sundays? 4 MR. MORRISON: Yes, sir. We also propose 5 retaining the same length and bag limit for the special 6 white-wing season the Commission approved last year. That 7 concluding this presentation. If you've got any questions, be 8 happy to the answer them. 9 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMMONS: Everybody is interested 10 in this as you can tell. Chairman. 11 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Why do we have a special 12 white-wing season anymore? 13 MR. MORRISON: I -- it provides some 14 opportunity in that particular area for one? 15 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Why can't we -- why not do it 16 the same as the mourning dove like you do in San Antonio or 17 wherever. 18 MR. MORRISON: There are some problems with the 19 earliest you can open in the dove season based on the 20 framework and stuff is, if I recall, September 20th is the 21 earliest. If without this special white-wing season you 22 basically could not have this hunting opportunity the way that 23 the framework of the dove framework is set up. That in a 24 South zone when they first established these South zones you 25 had to open no earlier than September the 20th. Now because ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 65 1 mourning dove are tied to that, this is the opportunity to 2 shoot white wings and get that early hunt. 3 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: There's no way to get it to 4 jibe with the September 1 opening? Well, we're in the South 5 zone. 6 MR. MORRISON: On this particular season now 7 you could, you could open on September 1st and 2nd and then 8 again on the 7th and 8th, but in the past when that Sunday has 9 fallen on the Sunday, the Commission has opted to move it to 10 the first two weekends. 11 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Is there good reason why I'm 12 confused? 13 MR. MORRISON: I'm confused, so, yes, ma'am, I 14 don't see why. Honestly, my history in Texas is very short 15 but from what I can remember dealing with dove issues 16 elsewhere that the South zone was created to provide 17 opportunity. They've done a lot of research at the time and 18 the reason why they pushed that mourning dove season to 19 September 20th was the concern of birds still nesting in these 20 southern regions. That's the reason why the South zone can 21 open no earlier than September the 20th. Now the special 22 white-wing season which is kind of unique to Texas because of 23 the difference in the way the birds nested and what have you, 24 they were allowed the special white-wing season in the 25 vicinity to take advantage of those birds. Now there has been ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 66 1 some discussions in the past from other states trying to 2 rearrange this, but at this time I think that it's going to be 3 rather difficult to get the Fish and Wildlife Service to -- 4 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Something we're just going to 5 have to live with? 6 MR. MORRISON: In my opinion I believe that 7 would be correct. 8 COMMISSIONER AVILA: So I guess the question 9 would be why can't you not have the white-wing season with the 10 mourning dove season is what I think you're saying. 11 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Because he's saying that way 12 we couldn't take advantage of the opportunity within the 13 framework. 14 MR. MORRISON: Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. 15 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Their hands are tied. 16 MR. MORRISON: In essence this is kind of 17 bonus, I mean it really is. It's a bonus season for us. 18 COMMISSIONER AVILA: Otherwise, it would be 19 taking away from our mourning dove because you're only allowed 20 so many dove days. 21 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: What I'm trying to figure out 22 is, is there a way to untangle this so that it's less 23 confusing but as I'm thinking it through I think you're right. 24 I don't there's much you can do. 25 MR. MORRISON: I don't think you can. This is ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 67 1 something, in essence, that is unique to Texas and that if we 2 wanted to push to do this, I think that what you're going to 3 do, you could lose these, quote, "bonus days." 4 MR. COOK: The trade-off in the discussion, I 5 think, with the Fish and Wildlife Service which Dave is 6 exactly right, it's a bonus season the way it is. It's an 7 additional above and beyond what our normal would be. But the 8 trade-off in the discussion that because of the way white-wing 9 dove populations have spread and done well would be that, you 10 know, if we give that up as extra bonus hunting, we would want 11 something in return. That's where we get into the negotiation 12 with the Feds and other states of, well, wait a minute Texas, 13 you're wanting a gift. But it's an ongoing -- 14 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: We are wanting more. 15 MR. COOK: -- discussion. 16 DR. GRAHAM: What Vernon is doing as we speak. 17 MR. COOK: I suspect old Bevill is up there 18 wearing their ears plum out. And he's getting that -- 19 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: I'm not -- 20 MR. COOK: It's that type of thing that we 21 don't want to talk about giving it up unless they're going to 22 give us something else. 23 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: I know we're well 24 represented by Vernon up there. We're just trying to get 25 educated. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 68 1 MR. COOK: He will wear them down. We with 2 persevere. 3 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: Mr. Ramos. 4 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Have we ever looked at the 5 fact that Labor Day may be one weekend or the other and look 6 at the getting in on the impact by moving the season one week 7 or another as relates to a longer week, a Labor Day weekend 8 where maybe more out of state hunters might come into Texas? 9 MR. MORRISON: Well, the bottom line is pretty 10 much our hands are tied because we can open no earlier than 11 September the 1st. 12 MR. COOK: We can't open in August. 13 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: But Labor Day typically is 14 on Sunday. 15 MR. COOK: But like say if Labor Day is like a 16 Friday, you know, you just can't open earlier than 17 September 1st. 18 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: I think Labor Day is on a 19 Monday. 20 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: From an economic 21 standpoint it would make more to include that weekend. 22 MR. MORRISON: Well, the only option we would 23 have this year would be to open on Sunday September 1st which 24 is allowable under Federal statutes. 25 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: And lose Saturday. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 69 1 MR. MORRISON: Yes, sir. But we can't do that 2 way because it's outside of September 1st treaty requirements. 3 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: If we could move that date 4 earlier to where we could incorporate the Labor Day weekend. 5 I'm looking again from an economic standpoint for the State to 6 maximize -- 7 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Let me ask one more question. 8 MR. MORRISON: Can I -- just so that 9 everybody -- the Migratory Board Treaty Act is September 1st 10 until March the 10th. That a what we are tied to. Ironically 11 there was some discussions at the House this year where some 12 representatives had recommended looking into the possibility 13 of opening outside of that framework open up the treaty 14 however that was talking about north of the 37th parallel. 15 And because the northern states lose their birds early in 16 September a lot of times they can't take advantage of it. 17 However, there's some disadvantages opening the treaty and 18 that's a long-winded discussion I'm not going to go into. 19 Currently we do not have that option. 20 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Thank you. 21 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMMONS: Another think you have 22 to open the treaty to do what Commissioner Ramos is talking 23 about, it takes Congressional action to open the treaty. 24 DR. GRAHAM: There's a lot of caution about 25 reopening the treaty. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 70 1 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMMONS: Mindful of the fact my 2 Regulations Committee is the most poplar committee and people 3 would rather talk about this all day than any of the other 4 things we have to do. Are there any other questions about 5 dove season? 6 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: One more question. 7 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMMONS: Madame Chair? 8 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Is there any biological reason 9 why the white-wing season couldn't be in sync with the 10 mourning dove season? 11 MR. MORRISON: No, ma'am, not that I'm aware 12 of. 13 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: There are plenty of them. 14 MR. MORRISON: The September 20th opening, no, 15 ma'am. 16 COMMISSIONER AVILA: Next question is why can't 17 it be from the 7th through the 15th back to the treaty. 18 MR. MORRISON: We are only allowed that many 19 days. 20 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMMONS: We keep bumping up 21 against this pesky treaty. 22 COMMISSIONER AVILA: This pesty treaty. 23 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Which has nothing to do with 24 biology. 25 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: Don't get that confused ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 71 1 with biology. Thank you, David. 2 No, I'm not going to ask one more question. 3 We've had enough on this issue. Let's see, any others 4 questions at all for, David? I don't really mean to rush 5 anybody. And that's Jerry Cooke with his hand up. He's all 6 right now. 7 DR. COOKE: I got it. 8 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMMONS: Okay. Very well. If 9 there are no further questions or discussion, without 10 objection I authorize staff to publish this item in the Texas 11 Register for the required public comment period and then we 12 can ask for questions about it later. 13 The next item the Commission Policy Manual 14 Resolution Designation Official Nonprofit. Gene McCarty. 15 MR. McCARTY: Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, my 16 name is Gene McCarty, I'm Chief of Staff for the Agency. 17 Today's item is a continuation of our implementation of 18 statutory changes enacted by the Senate Bill 305, our Sunset 19 Bill. To accurately reflect the changes in statute as 20 established by the Department of Sunset Bill, the Commission 21 must adopt changes to its policy manual that update and 22 clarify Commission policy language. These include language 23 that provides for public comment before any major decision, 24 provides for publication of the Commission's transcripts on 25 the official department web site and removes the consent ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 72 1 agenda guidelines and provides -- and has several 2 nonsubstantive language changes. 3 In addition, Senate Bill 305 requires the 4 Commission to designate a single nonprofit partner as its 5 official nonprofit partner. Staff recommends that the Parks 6 and Wildlife Foundation of Texas be designated as the official 7 nonprofit partner. As a stipulation of this designation, the 8 Foundation would be required to follow the best practices of 9 the official nonprofit partner and all Commission rules on 10 sponsorships. It is further recommended that this designation 11 be made in the form of a new Commission policy, that would be 12 Commission Policy No. 15. New Commission policies and 13 Commission policy amendments must be adopted by resolution, 14 and with your permission today, I would present a resolution 15 containing the proposed amendments and the new Commission 16 Policy No. 15 at the open public meeting tomorrow. Any 17 questions? 18 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMMONS: We have any questions 19 for Gene. 20 COMMISSIONER AVILA: I guess the only question 21 I have will this supersede a policy we just never have done 22 this before? 23 MR. McCARTY: No, sir, there is a Commission 24 policy in place now. This would -- this would amend it, 25 supersede it or just put -- it would basically amend the ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 73 1 current Commission policy manual. 2 COMMISSIONER AVILA: On the foundation, that 3 what I'm asking. 4 MR. McCARTY: On the foundation that would be a 5 new policy. That would be -- currently the Commission policy 6 manual contains 14 Commission policies. We're going to be add 7 a 15th which would be the designation of the Foundation as the 8 official nonprofit partner of the agency. 9 COMMISSIONER AVILA: I understand. 10 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: Any other questions? No 11 further questions or discussion, without objection I'll place 12 this item on the Thursday Commission meeting agenda for public 13 comment and action. Thank you, Gene. 14 And our final item for the regulations 15 committee, the Commercial Nongame Permits. John Herron is not 16 here, I guess, and Gary Graham. 17 DR. GRAHAM: I'm Gary Graham, Director of the 18 Wildlife Division. I recently had the privilege of being 19 nominated to chair the threatened and endangered species 20 committee of the international association that's meeting 21 today as we speak and John, given all the interesting and very 22 important topics today of this meeting, I opted to stay here 23 instead of going to Dallas and John is there in my place 24 today. In his place Rosie Roegner, our new Director of the 25 Federal Aid Program in the Wildlife Division is going to give ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 74 1 the presentation on the changes in the TD proclamations. 2 MS. ROEGNER: Mr. Chairman, members of the 3 Committee, my name is Rosie Regner and I'm formerly of the 4 Wildlife Permit Section in the Wildlife Division. And filling 5 in for John Herron today. We handle a variety of permits for 6 special use activities such as educational display, scientific 7 research, zoological collection, falconry and other uses of 8 wildlife. We also handle the nongame collection and sale 9 permits and that's what I would like to brief you on today. 10 I plan to give you a quick overview -- oops, my 11 apologies. I plan to give you a quick overview of what we've 12 learned in the past three years, along with an explanation of 13 proposed changes we would like to make in order to simplify 14 these rules. The nongame regulations were approved by the 15 Commission in June of 1998 and they were implemented on 16 January 1st, 1999. We worked with an ad hoc nongame advisory 17 committee to develop reporting procedures for the rules and we 18 also told the Commission at that time that we would come back 19 in three years with information that we had gathered through 20 the permitting system. The current permit requirements 21 include that reports are mandatory for anyone who sells any of 22 the animals listed in the regulation or who resells or 23 possesses more than ten specimens of any given species or more 24 than 25 animals in the aggravate. There are about 210 species 25 that are affected by this rule. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 75 1 This graph that I show you here shows the total 2 number of collection and dealer permits that were issued over 3 the past three years. The sales have remained very constant 4 with a slight increase in the number of dealer permits that 5 you see. And nearly half on our dealers are with large pet 6 store chains such as Petco and Pet's Mart and those types of 7 stores while relatively few are purchased by out-of-state 8 dealers. This slide shows the 19 species most commonly 9 reported in commercial trade and this is based on three years 10 of report data that we've received. The top two species each 11 have between 50 and 60,000 animals reported sold and the 12 remainder of the species listed had somewhere between 2,000 13 and 28,000 animals that were sold during the three-year 14 period. As a result of these data we've realized that can get 15 the information we need from dealers and involve fewer species 16 for our reports. So we propose to eliminate reporting 17 requirements for those not engaged in commercial activities 18 unless they have more than 25 animals in which case we're 19 going to assume that there's a commercial collection intent. 20 We also propose to decrease the number of 21 affected species, prohibit certain means and methods of take 22 and require either a dealer or a commercial nongame permit for 23 export of animals from the state. Other proposed changes 24 include simplifying the permit names. We would like to call 25 them the commercial nongame permit and the dealer's nongame ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 76 1 permit. And require that only dealers can sell to the public 2 and that dealers can only purchase from permitted individuals, 3 people with nongame permits themselves. Individuals who 4 collect, process then sell process products would also need a 5 new -- a permit under the new rules. We propose to disallow 6 the use of vacuum powered devices which have been prohibited 7 by the U.S. Department of Agricultural. As you can see in the 8 slide we have some concerns about impacts to nontarget species 9 that also utilize prairie dog dens. We'd also like to propose 10 a tagging requirement for traps that are left unattended and 11 we would like to propose that turtle traps have an opening 12 above the water to prevent drowning of the animals and also to 13 distinguish them from what may be illegal fish traps. 14 We would also like make a few changes to our 15 reporting requirements. Reports must include the permit 16 number of the individual selling to the dealer and that way we 17 can kind of track who's out there collecting. The reporting 18 period would change from its current period which is 19 September 1 through August 31 to August 1st through July 31st 20 and then we would like to change the report due date to August 21 15th in order that we can make sure everyone gets their 22 reports in before they get a new permit. 23 The numbers of species affected has been 24 greatly reduced in our proposed rules from 210 to a total of 25 26. The focus is on species of conservation concern and ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 77 1 species that are most commonly in trade. We don't want to 2 regulate anybody unnecessarily. The take and sale of bats has 3 also been prohibited by Parks and Wildlife Code Section 63.101 4 so bats have been dropped completely from this rule. An 5 additional item we propose to address is Parks and Wildlife 6 Code Section 65.173 which concerns allowing individuals to 7 temporary moved threatened and endangered species when found 8 near areas that are scheduled to be disturbed such as 9 construction sites, right of way maintenance, or those types 10 of activities. We do have many requests for relocation of 11 these animals, but at this time no permit exists that will 12 allow the State to give them that authorization. So we 13 propose to handle it through a letter of authorization issued 14 on a case by case basis. The Department has the option of 15 issuing a letter based on the qualifications of the applicant 16 and the justification provided for the request. The 17 individual must be experienced in the biological sciences and 18 they need to be an employee with the government or a paid 19 biological consultant. I would also like to note that any 20 individual working with the Federally protected species would 21 also have to have a Federal permit. And with that I would be 22 happy to answer any questions. 23 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Mr. Chairman, I recall 24 when this came up the first time three years ago that there 25 were quite a few people interested in and concerned about our ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 78 1 overregulation. Do you feel like you've addressed that by 2 reducing the species and changing some of the permitting 3 requirements or -- 4 MS. ROEGNER: Yes, sir. 5 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: -- what has been the 6 input from the people that are involved? 7 MS. ROEGNER: Yes, sir. That's been largely 8 the consensus and we did face a lot of opposition at the time 9 they were originally proposed but we found that people 10 realized it wasn't so bad and we really were just after report 11 information and we're dramatically dropping the numbers of 12 species so a lot of people will not even have to get a permit 13 at this point. So I feel like that's been addressed. 14 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMMONS: There was some concern 15 earlier, as I remember, it was a few years ago when this first 16 came up of some people -- one of the reasons to gather this 17 information was 'cause there were a few people out there 18 commercially harvesting some of those nongame species. Is 19 there any indication that that's increased, decreased or -- 20 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: 21 MS. ROEGNER: I'm sorry, the harvest of which. 22 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: Commercial. Most people 23 there were people doing it for commercial purposes. 24 MS. ROEGNER: That still goes on. 25 DR. GRAHAM: Has it increased or decreased ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 79 1 some. 2 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: Increased, it's 3 decreased, the same. 4 MS. ROEGNER: I don't feel like there's been a 5 marked change in the last three years. The same people who 6 were collecting previous to the regulation are still out there 7 doing that. We haven't banned anything. 8 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMMONS: Uh-huh. 9 MS. ROEGNER: Now we know who they are and what 10 species they're taking and in what number and we want to 11 continue to watch that but for the top group of species. 12 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: Okay. 13 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: When we issue or 14 require an issue -- someone is required to get a permit, 15 someone is required to get a permit, can we put in a deadline 16 on us to get them, so often the business it takes so long to 17 get permits? Would you-all mind if we put in a time frame in 18 which we have to act, requirement on us to act within a 19 certain time frame once an application is in? There are a 20 number of permitting requirements, like, see, put in a fairly 21 limited amount of time where we've got to take action. 22 MS. ROEGNER: We've got a pretty good 23 turnaround time right now. We've been getting the permits out 24 within about a week. 25 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: That's great. No way ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 80 1 I'm being critical of now because I don't know. 2 DR. GRAHAM: It used to be a problem about a 3 year and a half two years ago and largely due to Rosie's 4 effort we've really focussed on that customer service issue 5 and provided the permit in a very short turnaround time. 6 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: These are going to be 7 around a long time, though, I would like to see it go into the 8 regs that there's actually some requirement that these -- 9 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: I don't disagree with 10 you, Phil, it maybe more appropriate, though, to think of it 11 in general terms policy where we have a lot of different 12 permits not just these. 13 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: It's a very broad 14 point. So I would be happy to take it broadly if you would 15 like. 16 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMMONS: Yeah. 17 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: Yeah. This is a 18 customer service issue. 19 MS. ROEGNER: Yes. 20 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: We can take it up 21 just as a broad sense of a department. I heard three or four 22 places that are adding more permitting requirements. 23 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMMONS: I don't disagree with 24 the objective. 25 DR. GRAHAM: If you don't mind, what I would ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 81 1 recommend is that we take a look at that because it is so 2 broad the implications you get everything from TTT permits to 3 these permits and each of those has a slightly different time 4 frame associated with that. I can't address right now. The 5 general idea I think would be supportive of the time frame 6 associated with each if we had a chance to sort of analyze 7 that and make a recommendation. 8 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: Fair enough. 9 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: In some areas if they're 10 deemed granted if not responded to. 11 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: I didn't that. 12 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: On some of the permits we 13 grant are pretty serious and we have to make sure we do have 14 enough time. 15 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: Importation of 16 cervids we don't want to degrant. 17 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: We ought to be careful on 18 that one. 19 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: What's the penalty if you 20 don't report by August 15th or whatever deadline, how do we 21 enforce that or what do we do? 22 MS. ROEGNER: Well, we've had some problems 23 with that in the past because the only hammer we have, so to 24 speak, is to lock that individual out of our point of sale 25 system. The problem is right now the deadline is ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 82 1 September 15th and yet they can buy their licenses as of 2 September 1st. So it really makes it impossible to block 3 people out for that following year if they, you know, if they 4 get a jump on it right away. So that's why we wanted to move 5 that report due date into August so that we would have time 6 then we can lock them out of the system and they would have to 7 meet reporting requirements in order to purchase their 8 license. 9 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Other than knocking them 10 out of the system we don't have a penalty provision or some 11 teeth to encourage them to comply with that, in other words, 12 if I elected to drop out of the system I would just drop out 13 and we wouldn't have any remedy is what I'm saying. 14 MR. COOK: I think that's correct. 15 MS. ROEGNER: That's correct, although, if you 16 continued to practice in commercial trade and you could 17 certainly be cited for that and that would be a Class C 18 misdemeanor, I believe. 19 DR. GRAHAM: If you're transporting them across 20 state lines you could get into even serious Federal trouble. 21 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: The other issue you said 22 if you had more than 25 animals then you would be subject to 23 our jurisdiction on this. 24 MS. ROEGNER: Yes. 25 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Is that 25 of a particular ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 83 1 species or it could be any 25? 2 MS. ROEGNER: It would be any combination of 3 the animals on the list for the effected species for that 4 regulation. 5 MR. COOK: Rosie, I believe I heard you 6 correctly somewhere between 50 and 60,000 of the top two 7 species? 8 MS. ROEGNER: For that entire three-year 9 period. 10 MR. COOK: Prairie dogs. 11 MS. ROEGNER: Prairie dogs, rattlesnakes. 12 DR. GRAHAM: Soft shell turtle. 13 MS. ROEGNER: Soft shell turtle. 14 MR. COOK: From a commercial standpoint, what 15 is prairie dog worth? What do they do with the prairie dogs? 16 MS. ROEGNER: They send them to Japan 17 apparently. I've been told they get $200 for them. I don't 18 know. 19 MR. COOK: What's our permit cost? 20 MS. ROEGNER: The dealer permit if you're a 21 resident is a $50 permit so. 22 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: That's pretty good. 23 MR. COOK: I guess I'm asking the question 24 because I would like staff and the Commission to keep in mind 25 the issues that we have before us now in the commercial ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 84 1 fishery permitting thing at least that we cover our cost in 2 the program and, you know, where we think it's necessary, yes, 3 permit people. Where it's not necessary, let's don't have a 4 burden but let's have the program pay for itself and that's an 5 issue that, you know, we got dealt with on and I would want to 6 address that in this one. 7 COMMISSIONER AVILA: That's a very good point. 8 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Fifty dollar permit is 9 that for that animal? 10 MS. ROEGNER: It's for any of them. 11 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: For that dealer. 12 MS. ROEGNER: For a year for that dealer, yes, 13 sir. 14 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: So you can deal with 500 15 permits. 16 MS. ROEGNER: There's no limit on the number 17 you can take. In fact, they're taking thousands, tens of 18 thousands. 19 MR. COOK: Vacuum cleaners. 20 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: What do they do with them in 21 Japan? 22 MS. ROEGNER: I understand they're pets. It's 23 supposed to do be a -- 24 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: I've known a -- 25 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMMONS: And the soft shell ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 85 1 turtles, I remember there was that case in Houston they found 2 them trying to ship however many thousands of them and that's 3 for food. 4 MS. ROEGNER: Yes, sir, the Asian food market. 5 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: The Asian food market for 6 soft shell. 7 DR. GRAHAM: If I may comment. Data are one of 8 our most valuable tools in all the business we do from deer 9 management to managing these permits and these -- this has -- 10 this three-year period has allowed us to gather some really 11 powerful data. We've used it to preclude the listing of some 12 turtles on the dangerous species list and we're able to 13 address international trade issues with data that we can back 14 up. So that's an important aspect of this and all of our 15 others too. 16 MR. COOK: We appreciate the Commission's 17 support in this. 18 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMMONS: They love the 19 Regulations Committee. 20 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Just one more. You 21 mentioned that we dictate or we set parameters as to where the 22 trap the animals. 23 MS. ROEGNER: Well, that's on our new proposal. 24 We have not done that. 25 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: So that law enforcement ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 86 1 would be in a position to ensure that they're being caught in 2 a humane fashion. 3 MS. ROEGNER: Yes, sir. That's been a problem 4 in the past with the turtle traps. 5 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Thank you. 6 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: I don't completely 7 follow you. You had some restrictions on the types of people 8 who could sell using these permits back through there 9 biologists and others. What was that all about? 10 MS. ROEGNER: Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: Just on the 12 endangered species. 13 MS. ROEGNER: You may be thinking of the 14 endangered species. 15 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: On the commercial 16 side there's no regulation of who can get a permit. 17 MS. ROEGNER: That's correct. That's correct. 18 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: Okay. Strictly an 19 endangered species issue. 20 MS. ROEGNER: On the other, the threatened and 21 endangered species issue we've had come up quite a bit with 22 the Department of Transportation, for example, and it's 23 primarily to do with herps. So in cases where there are 24 horned lizards or there are Texas tortoises or something that 25 may be right in front after a bulldozer they can't run over ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 87 1 them but they can't legally pick them up and do anything with 2 them so we're trying to give them an option so that they can 3 relocate to animal to adjacent habitat where it's out of 4 harm's way. Any other questions? 5 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMMONS: Thank you. Thank you, 6 Gary. Any other questions? No further questions or 7 discussion, without objection I authorize to publish this item 8 in the Texas Register for the required public comment period. 9 And any other comments, business to come before the 10 Regulations Committee? Hearing none, I entertain a motion 11 adjourn. 12 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: So moved. 13 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Second. 14 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: In favor. 15 ("Aye.") 16 CHAIRMAN FITZSIMONS: All opposed, same sign. 17 We stand adjourned. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 88 1 THE STATE OF TEXAS ) 2 COUNTY OF TRAVIS ) 3 I, KIM SEIBERT, a Certified Court Reporter in and for 4 the State of Texas, do hereby certify that the above and 5 foregoing pages constitute a full, true, and correct 6 transcript of the minutes of the Texas Parks and Wildlife 7 Commission on April 3, 2002, in the Commission hearing room 8 of the Texas Parks and Wildlife Headquarters Complex, Austin, 9 Travis County, Texas. 10 I FURTHER CERTIFY that a stenographic record was made by 11 me at the time of the public meeting and said stenographic 12 notes were thereafter reduced to computerized transcription 13 under my supervision and control. 14 WITNESS MY HAND this ____ day of ____________________, 15 2002. 16 17 18 ___________________________ KIM SEIBERT, Texas CSR 4589 19 Expiration Date: 12/2002 3101 Bee Caves Road 20 Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78701 21 (512) 328-5557 22 23 24 25 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139 . 89 1 2 3 4 ___________________________ JOSEPH FITZSIMONS, CHAIRMAN 5 6 ___________________________ PHILIP MONTGOMERY, III 7 8 ___________________________ DONATO D. RAMOS 9 10 ___________________________ KELLY W. RISING, M.D. 11 12 ___________________________ ERNEST ANGELO, JR. 13 14 ___________________________ JOHN AVILA, JR. 15 16 ___________________________ ALVIN L. HENRY 17 18 ___________________________ KATHARINE ARMSTRONG IDSAL 19 20 ___________________________ MARK E. WATSON, JR. 21 22 23 24 25 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78746 (512) 328-5557 FAX: (512) 328-8139
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