Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission
Public Hearing
Aug. 29, 2002
Commission Hearing RoomTexas Parks & Wildlife Department Headquarters Complex
4200 Smith School Road
Austin, TX 78744
1 6 BE IT REMEMBERED, that heretofore on the 29th 7 day of August, 2002, there came to be heard matters under 8 the regulatory authority of the Parks and Wildlife 9 Commission of Texas, in the Commission Hearing Room of the 10 Texas Parks and Wildlife Headquarters Complex, Austin, 11 Texas, beginning at 9:00 a.m., to wit: 12 13 APPEARANCES: 14 THE PARKS AND WILDLIFE COMMISSION: 15 CHAIR: Katharine Armstrong, Austin, Texas Donato D. Ramos, Laredo, Texas 16 Philip Montgomery, III, Dallas, Texas Ernest Angelo, Jr., Midland, Texas 17 John Avila, Jr., Fort Worth, Texas Alvin L. Henry, Houston, Texas 18 Mark E. Watson, Jr., San Antonio, Texas Joseph Fitzsimons, San Antonio, Texas 19 Kelly M. Rising, M.D., Beaumont, Texas 20 21 22 THE TEXAS PARKS AND WILDLIFE DEPARTMENT: Robert L. Cook, Executive Director, and other personnel of 23 the Parks and Wildlife Department 24 25 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 2 1 OTHER APPEARANCES: 2 Mr. Greg Westmoreland, Matagorda County 1700 7th Street, Room 301 3 Bay City, Texas 77414 Matter of Interest: No. 6-Regional Park Grant Funding 4 Ms. Donna Brasher 5 LCRA Austin, Texas 78620 6 Matter of Interest: No. 6-Regional Park Grant Funding 7 Mr. Jonathan Schulz, City of Karnes City 218 East Calvert 8 Karnes City, Texas 78118 Matter of Interest: No. 4-Local Park Grant Fund Outdoor 9 Recreation Grants 10 Mr. Randy Truesdell, City of Lubbock Parks and Recreation Department 11 P.O. Box 2000 Lubbock, Texas 79424 12 Matter of Interest: No. 4-Local Park Grant Fund Outdoor Recreation Grants 13 Mr. Hollis Rutledge, City of Pharr 14 Pharr, Texas Matter of Interest: No. 4-Local Park Grant Fund Outdoor 15 Recreation Grants 16 Mr. Leo "Polo" Palacios, Mayor, City of Pharr 205 West Park 17 Pharr Texas, 78577 Matter of Interest: No. 4-Local Park Grant Fund Outdoor 18 Recreation Grants 19 Mr. Tony McGee, City of Wimberely P.O. Box 2027 20 Wimberley, Texas 78676 Matter of Interest: No. 4-Local Park Grant Fund Outdoor 21 Recreation Grants 22 Mr. Hector Palacios, Hildago County 301 Estate 23 Pharr, Texas 78589 Matter of Interest: No. 4-Local Park Grant Fund Outdoor 24 Recreation Grants 25 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 3 1 OTHER APPEARANCES (Continued): 2 Mr. Curtis Schrader, City of Marfa Box 787 3 Marfa, Texas 79843 Matter of Interest: No. 5-Small Community Grants 4 Ms. Wanda Herd, City of Wheeler 5 Box 98 Wheeler, Texas 79096 6 Matter of Interest: No. 5-Small Community Grants 7 Mr. Dock Jackson, City of Elgin Box 591 8 310 North Main Elgin, Texas 78621 9 Matter of Interest: No. 5-Small Community Grants 10 Ms. Sheila Childs, City of Woodway 924 Estates Drive 11 Woodway, Texas 76712 Matter of Interest: No. 5-Small Community Grants 12 Ms. Jeanne Patterson, Texas Bicycle Coalition 13 8301 Bobwhite Frisco, Texas 75034 14 Matter of Interest: No. 7-Recreational Trails Grants 15 Mr. Kirby Brown, Texas Wildlife Association 402 Isom Road, Suite 237 16 San Antonio, Texas 78216 Matter of Interest: No. 9-FY03 Operating and Capital 17 Budget and Texas Parks and Wildlife Investment Policy, Budget Policy 18 No. 12-Scientific Breeder Regulations-Disease Testing and Monitoring Measures 19 No. 13-Migratory Game Bird Proclamation-Late Season No. 14-Nongame Commercial Permit Regulations 20 No. 15-Land and Water Resources Conservation and Recreation Plan Resolution 21 22 23 24 25 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 4 1 OTHER APPEARANCES (Continued): 2 Mr. Ellis Gilleland, Texas Animals P.O. Box 9001 3 Austin, Texas 78766 Matter of Interest: No. 12-Scientific Breeder 4 Regulations-Disease Testing and Monitoring Measures No. 14-Nongame Commercial Permit Regulations 5 No. 15-Land and Water Resources Conservation and Recreation Plan Resolution 6 No. 16-Nomination for Oil and Gas Lease-Harris County No. 17-Land Sale: Tarrant County; Harris County; Austin 7 County 8 Mr. Karl Kinsel, TDA 5413 Bandera, Suite 408 9 San Antonio, Texas 78209 Matter of Interest: No. 12-Scientific Breeder 10 Regulations-Disease Testing and Monitoring Measures 11 Mr. J.W. Vanderpool, Vanderpool Exotics, Inc. 75048-15 Road 12 Meade, Kansas 67864 Matter of Interest: No. 14-Nongame Commercial Permit 13 Regulations 14 Mr. Perry Hounshell 6701 S. FM 1788 15 Midland, Texas 79706 Matter of Interest: No. 14-Nongame Commercial Permit 16 Regulations 17 Mr. David Langford, Texas Wildlife Association Matter of Interest: No. 15-Land and Water Resources 18 Conservation and Recreation Plan Resolution 19 Mr. Brian Sybert, Sierra Club P.O. Box 1931 20 Austin, Texas 78767 Matter of Interest: No. 15-Land and Water Resources 21 Conservation and Recreation Plan Resolution 22 Ms. Mary Lehmann, Keep the Land 116 East 37th, Suite 210 23 Austin, Texas Matter of Interest: No. 15-Land and Water Resources 24 Conservation and Recreation Plan Resolution 25 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 5 1 OTHER APPEARANCES (Continued): 2 Mr. Wesley C. Stripling, IV, William Lloyd Walsh and Richard Walsh 3 6100 Camp Bowie Boulevard, Suite 77 Fort Worth, Texas 76116 4 Matter of Interest: No. 17-Land Sale: Tarrant County, Harris County, Austin County 5 Mr. Jon Ed Robbins, Tarrant County 6 401 Roberts Saginaw, Texas 76179 7 Matter of Interest: No. 17-Land Sale: Tarrant County, Harris County, Austin County 8 Mr. Les Breeding, Representative Lon Burnam 9 P.O. Box 2910 Austin, Texas 78767 10 Matter of Interest: No. 17-Land Sale: Tarrant County, Harris County, Austin County 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 6 1 (9:00 a.m.) 2 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Good morning, 3 everyone. Welcome. The meeting is called to order. 4 Before proceeding with any business, I believe Mr. Cook 5 has a statement to make. 6 MR. COOK: Madame Chairman, thank you. A 7 public notice of this meeting containing all items on the 8 proposed agenda has been filed with the Office of 9 Secretary of State as required by Chapter 551 of the 10 Government Code referred to as the Open Meetings Law. I 11 would like for this action to be noted in the official 12 record of this meeting. 13 So that everyone will have a chance to address 14 the Commission in an orderly fashion, the following 15 grounds rules will be followed today. The Chairman is in 16 charge of this meeting and by law it is her duty to 17 preserve order, direct the order of this hearing and 18 recognize persons to be heard. I will be assisting the 19 Chairman today as Sergeant at Arms. We have sign-up cards 20 out front here for everyone wishing to speak and the 21 Chairman will call names from those cards one at a time. 22 Each person will be allowed to speak from the 23 podium here at the front one at a time. When your name is 24 called, please come to the podium, state your name, who 25 you represent, if anyone other than yourself. Then state ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 7 1 your purpose on the agenda item under consideration and 2 ask for any facts that will help the Commission understand 3 your concern. Please limit your remarks to the specific 4 agenda item under consideration. The person who wants to 5 address the Commission will have three minutes to speak. 6 I will keep track of the time on this handy dandy little 7 thing. It goes through a series of green when you've got 8 about a minute left, yellow when you've got about 30 9 seconds left and red when your time is up. So I hope you 10 will help me stay on time. Your time may be extended if 11 one of the Commissioners has a question for you or if the 12 Commission gets into a discussion about the -- about the 13 item that you're bringing up. And that time will not be 14 counted against you. 15 Statements which are merely argumentative or 16 critical of others will not be tolerated. There is a 17 microphone at the podium, so it is not necessary to raise 18 your voice. I also ask that you show proper respect for 19 our Commission as well as other members of the audience. 20 You will not be recognized out of turn by raising your 21 hand or interrupting others. Disruptive or offensive 22 behavior will be grounds for immediate ejection from the 23 meeting. If you would like to submit written materials to 24 the Commission, please give them to Ms. Lori Estrada, who 25 is seated to my right here. Ms. Estrada will pass the ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 8 1 written materials out to the Commission. 2 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you, Mr. Cook. 3 Next is the approval of the minutes which have already 4 been distributed. Is there a motion for approval? 5 COMMISSIONER RISING: So moved. 6 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: We have a second. 7 COMMISSIONER WATSON: Second. 8 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Second from 9 Commissioner Watson. All in favor? 10 ("Aye.") 11 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Opposed? Motion 12 carries. Next is the acceptance of gifts which have also 13 been distributed. Is there a motion for approval? 14 TPWD DONATIONS OF $500 OR MORE 15 NOT PREVIOUSLY APPROVED BY THE COMMISSION 16 (1) HEB; CASH; Coastal Expo-Kidfish (2) Wal-Mart; CASH; Fisheries Management-Signs 17 (3) Estate of Beatrice Payne; CASH; Texas Freshwater Fisheries Center 18 (4) Texas State Bank; CASH; Coastal Expo-Kidfish (5) Carl Zeiss Optical; CASH; Great Texas Birding Classic 19 (6) Carl Zeiss Optical; Binoculars, Scop; Great Texas Birding Classic 20 (7) Swarovski Optik North America; CASH; Great Texas Birding Classic 21 (8) Swarovski Optik North America; Binoculars; Great Texas Birding Classic 22 (9) Leica Camera; Inc.; CASH; Great Texas Birding Classic (10) Leica Camera; Inc.; Scopes; Great Texas Birding 23 Classic (11) Sheltered Wings/Eagle Optics; CASH; Great Texas 24 Birding Classic (12) Sheltered Wings/Eagle Optics; Binoculars; Great 25 Texas Birding Classic (13) Travis Audubon Society; CASH; Great Texas Birding ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 9 1 Classic (14) The Brunton Co; CASH; Great Texas Birding Classic 2 (15) Greater Mission Chamber of Commerce; CASH; Great Texas Birding Classic 3 (16) Corpus Christi Convention & Visitors Bureau; CASH; Great Texas Birding Classic 4 (17) Scott and Joan Holt; CASH; Great Texas Birding Classic 5 (18) Port Aransas Chamber of Commerce; CASH; Great Texas Birding Classic 6 (19) Theodore G. Cleveland; CASH; Great Texas Birding Classic 7 (20) Reliant Energy; CASH; Great Texas Birding Classic (21) Fancy Publications; CASH; Great Texas Birding 8 Classic (22) Coastal Conservation Association; CASH; Crab Trap 9 Removal Program (23) Dallas Safari Club; CASH; Duck Blind-Hunter Safety 10 Trail (24) Quail Unlimited Texas Council; CASH; Montezuma Quail 11 Research at Elephant Mountain WMA (25) Sportmen's Club of Fort Worth; CASH; Montezuma Quail 12 Research at Elephant Mountain WMA (26) Cross Timbers Chapter of Quail Unlimited; CASH; 13 Montezuma Quail Research at Elephant Mountain WMA (27) Austin Chapter of Quail Unlimited; CASH; Montezuma 14 Quail Research at Elephant Mountain WMA (28) The CH Foundation; CASH; High Plains Wildlife Trail 15 (29) David Kline; CASH; Becoming an Outdoor Woman (30) Silencio/Safety Direct, Inc.; Hearing/ Eye 16 Protection; Hunter Education (31) Henry Repeating Arms Company; .22 Rifles; Hunter 17 Education (32) Highland Industric, Inc.,; Hunter Orange Vests; 18 Hunter Education (33) MDI Productions; Hunting/Fishing Videos; Hunter and 19 Angler Education (34) Walls Industries, Inc.; Hunter Orange Vests; Hunter 20 Education (35) Rattlesnake Racing, Inc.; Canoe and Equipment; 21 Recreational Opportunities (36) Friends of Fairfield Lake State Park; 2-way Radios; 22 Communication-Park Police (37) U.S. Army Electronic Proving Ground; Low-light 23 Imaging Device; Law Enforcement-Counter Drug (38) Coastal Conservation Association; Night Vision 24 Monocular; Coastal Law Enforcement (39) Victor Emanuel Nature Tours; CASH; Great Texas 25 Birding Classic (40) Tyler Audubon Society; CASH; Prairies & Pineywoods ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 10 1 Wildlife Trail (41) Mullen Insurance Agency; Office Furnishings; Lake 2 Tawakoni State Park (42) Wildlife Research Center; Inc.; Educational Packets; 3 Hunter Education (43) Winchester Ammunition; Ammunition and Literature; 4 Hunter Education (44) Mrs. Pat Spain; Interpretive Collections; State Parks 5 (45) Haruko Sakai & Michiko Sakai Smart; Interpretive Collections; State Parks 6 (46) Howard Patton; Interpretive Collections; State Parks (47) Elizabeth Van Dorn, Sarah Smith, Frances Zehmer; 7 Interpretive Collections; State Parks (48) Michael & Elizabeth Lynott; Interpretive 8 Collections; State Parks (49) George J. Ciancio; Interpretive Collections; State 9 Parks 10 TOTAL $306,748 11 COMMISSIONER WATSON: So moved. 12 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Second. 13 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Motion by Commissioner 14 Watson, second by Commissioner Ramos. All in favor? 15 ("Aye.") 16 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Opposed? Motion 17 carries. 18 Next, we're going to make a special presentation 19 before we get into the retirement and service awards. 20 Mr. Cook, would you meet me or join me down here? 21 I have a -- I have a very special treat, 22 personal treat that I get to do today. We're here to 23 honor a great friend of Texas Parks and Wildlife 24 Department, a great friend to the State of Texas, a great 25 friend to conservation. We're here to honor George C. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 11 1 Hixon, known as Tim Hixon to all of us. 2 Tim was a Commissioner of the Texas Parks and 3 Wildlife Commission and so many of you here know Tim. I'm 4 going to go over some information on Tim to maybe many of 5 you all already know, but I think is worth going over 6 again today. Tim is married to Karen Carter Johnson, who 7 is also a great friend to conservation and a great friend 8 to Texas. He is the father of two sons, Bryan Simpson 9 Hixon and Bryan -- George Simpson Hixon and Bryan Simpson 10 Hixon. He attended Hotchkiss school in Lakeville, 11 Connecticut, Washington & Lee University in Lexington, 12 Virginia, and Trinity University in San Antonio, Texas. 13 He has received many awards. 14 The San Antonio Anglers' Club named him 15 conservationist of the year in 1984. He's been made 16 conservationist of the year by the Game Conservation 17 International. He received the Good Scout Award for the 18 Alamo Boy Scouts. He's received the Harvey Weil 19 Sportsman/Conservationist Award, the Chevron Conservation 20 award, the Boone and Crockett Club Sagamore Hill award and 21 the Hotchkiss School Alumni award. He has been a member 22 of many conservation organizations and I'll mention just a 23 few, the Parks and Wildlife Foundation of Texas as 24 chairman and member, the Texas Parks and Wildlife 25 Commission from 1989 until 1995, past president of the ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 12 1 Boone and Crockett Club, past director of Game 2 Conservation International, Trustee Emeritus of the 3 Dallas -- of the San Antonio Zoological Society. He is 4 currently on the advisory board of the Caesar-Kleberg 5 Wildlife Research Institute. He's a past director of the 6 Nature Conservancy and the Nature Conservancy of Texas. 7 Tim, in describing his tenure as Commissioner of 8 the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department says it's the best 9 job he ever had. Now that I've been on the Commission for 10 three years, I understand exactly what he's talking about. 11 I feel precisely the same way. As Commissioner, he helped 12 to establish Texas Wildlife Expo, he approved the 13 construction of Sea Center in Texas and the Texas 14 Freshwater Fisheries Center. He convinced the Commission 15 at a time when Texas Parks and Wildlife was hesitant to 16 acquire new land that there was some land just outside of 17 San Antonio that beared acquiring, and it was the 18 beginning of what has become Government Canyon. And as 19 you will hear probably today in our presentation on the 20 Land and Water Conservation Plan, Government Canyon which 21 has been such a -- a great accomplishment for both Tim and 22 Karen is going to be used as a model for our future parks. 23 When we decide whether we need to acquire in a certain 24 area and for what purposes, we will be looking to 25 Government Canyon to achieve those goals that we believe ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 13 1 the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department is charged with 2 fulfilling. So the example you've set with Government 3 Canyon will not only affect the San Antonio area but many 4 of our urban areas for many, many years to come. Thank 5 you, Tim. 6 As chairman of the Parks and Wildlife Foundation 7 of Texas, he has increased the assets to $7.5 million. In 8 the last seven years, Parks and Wildlife Foundation has 9 received over $30 million in donations. He began the Lone 10 Star Legacy campaign and with Karen committed to help fund 11 endowments for every Texas Parks and Wildlife site. Since 12 their 1996 gift of $200,000, the number of site endowments 13 has grown from three to 183. 14 I could go on and on, but there just isn't 15 enough time. So I'm going to read you a letter that we 16 received just yesterday that kind of sums it all up and 17 expressions for me at least and I'm sure for others our 18 feelings for George C. Hixon. 19 "Dear Tim, Congratulations as you retire as 20 chairman of the Parks and Wildlife Foundation of Texas. 21 Throughout your career, your hard work and determined 22 efforts have promoted the conservation of natural 23 resources in the State of Texas. In establishing the 24 Texas Wildlife Expo, promoting public and corporate 25 partnerships, supporting conservation, helping fund site ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 14 1 endowments and helping manage effectively the natural 2 resources of Texas, you have provided a model of 3 outstanding leadership. Your devotion to protecting and 4 preserving the natural beauty of Texas is an inspiration 5 to so many. We know how proud your family, friends and 6 colleagues are of your record of accomplishments. Thank 7 you for your many years of dedicated public service. We 8 send our best wishes for an enjoyable retirement. 9 Sincerely, President George W. Bush." 10 (Applause.) 11 MR. HIXON: Thanks everybody. 12 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Tim, we would love to 13 have you say a few words. 14 MR. HIXON: I will say three or four words. 15 I'm not very good as a speaker. But as Katharine said, 16 this is the best job I've ever had. I've been involved in 17 conservation for 36 years now, basically all my adult 18 life, mainly wildlife conservation. It's given me such 19 pleasure. There's almost never been a bad moment, a few 20 tense moments, yeah. Bad ones, I can't think of one. 21 I've been involved here with the Department in one fashion 22 or another for I think it's 13 years now, and I miss it 23 and I miss a lot of the friends I've made here. 24 Now, as I told the group last night, traveling 25 around the world I hear the comments time after time after ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 15 1 time, "I wish our department was like the Texas 2 Department." Everybody says this. I've never heard 3 anything else but this, and it's -- it's a special place 4 and a special bunch of people, and I'm thrilled to have 5 been part of it. And everybody knows where to find me if 6 I can ever help. Thanks. 7 (Applause.) 8 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thanks, again, Tim, 9 for everything. I think it's appropriate now for me to 10 just quickly introduce the soon-to-be Chairman of the 11 Texas Parks and Wildlife Foundation who has also come 12 today, Patrick Oles, an old friend of mine and an old 13 friend of the Department's. I don't have his bio in front 14 of me, so I'm going wing it a little bit. 15 I've known Patrick since he was -- we were both 16 very callow youngsters. He worked for my father in 17 Governor Clement's appointments office, and even at that 18 age, it was clear that Pat was one of those old souls that 19 had a sort of prenatural amount of wisdom at a very early 20 age. He went on to become the Chairman of the Lower 21 Colorado River Authority. He's been involved in various 22 conservation groups. I trust Patrick. He is a person 23 that we all rely on for guidance. I know that he cares 24 deeply about these issues, and I think he will be a 25 wonderful chairman and hopefully Patrick, you will live up ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 16 1 to the example that went before you. 2 Would you please stand. 3 (Applause) 4 MR. OLES: Following in Mr. Hixon's 5 footsteps and leadership, I'm going to keep -- I have two 6 words. Thank you for the opportunity. I look forward to 7 working with my great friend Tim, who has left a huge 8 hurdle and a big footprint for all of us to follow. I did 9 have the opportunity to serve on the original -- the 10 original board of the Foundation, and I can tell you 11 it's -- it's tremendous progress and a great deal of pride 12 to see how far you brought the foundation over the last 11 13 years, I believe now. 14 So I'm anxious to work with Tim and the other 15 trustees as well as the Commission. I have a lot of 16 friends here, just like Tim, lots of good memories from 17 our years at the LCRA working with Parks and Wildlife. So 18 I look forward to -- to getting to work, and thanks very 19 much for the opportunity. 20 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 21 (Applause.) 22 MR. COOK: Mr. Hixon, it would be -- I 23 would be remiss in not expressing something that I have 24 heard to you and Karen from all of the employees at Texas 25 Parks and Wildlife Department and all of our constituents. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 17 1 Thank you very much. We appreciate you. You're a great 2 man and have helped us so much, and we appreciate it. 3 With that, let's get down to our service -- 4 retirement certificate service awards. First of all, I 5 believe we have Mr. Terry Cody. Terry is a Manager II 6 Coastal Fisheries, Rockport, Texas. Terry's retired with 7 over 32 years of service. He has worked all these years 8 for the Coastal Division at Rockport Marine Lab, with only 9 a brief stint in Brownsville to study pink shrimp. 10 Starting as a seasonal Fish and Wildlife Technician I in 11 1969, he quickly rose through the ranks. As he gained a 12 wealth of knowledge and experience of shrimp and fish 13 management and research in the Gulf of Mexico. In May, he 14 retired as a Manager II, Ecosystem Leader for the Corpus 15 Christi Bay system. For many years, Terry served on the 16 several committees for the Gulf of Mexico Fisheries 17 Management Council and the Gulf State Marine Fisheries 18 Commission. During his tenure, he worked in almost all of 19 the bay systems on the Texas Coast. He was the lead 20 author of the 1989 Shrimp Fisheries Management Plan by 21 which TPWD received regulatory authority from the 22 legislature for shrimp management. This document, as well 23 as sound scientific data that Mr. Cody has been 24 responsible for collecting during his entire career, was a 25 backbone for our recent shrimp management recollections. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 18 1 It is the dedication and integrity of biologists like 2 Terry Cody that make the Coastal Fisheries Division and 3 this agency respected in the field of fisheries 4 management. Terry Cody. 5 (Applause.) 6 MR. COOK: The next gentleman is receiving 7 both his Retirement Certificate and Service Award. David 8 McDonald came to TPWD after having worked five years as a 9 research translator for the Texas Antiquities Committee on 10 the 1554 Spanish shipwreck project team that was 11 instrumental in locating and microfilming documents 12 pertaining to the wrecks in the Spanish and Mexican 13 archives. He subsequent served as chief translator for 14 the project and published translations of selected 15 documents pertaining the wrecks. 16 David began his employment with TPWD in 1978 as 17 a manager in park historian for Casa Navarro State 18 Historical Park in San Antonio, Texas. 19 During his tenure with the Department, he has 20 made many presentations to college classes and at 21 historical conferences in addition to translating, 22 annotating, and publishing the Historical Writings of Jose 23 Navarro, the first Tejano to write about the history of 24 Texas. 25 Most recently he has been a consultant on Fight ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 19 1 for Texas, a forthcoming PBS American Experience 2 documentary that will focus on Tejanos and the Texas 3 Revolution featuring Jose Antonio Navarro and his 4 important role in Texas history. 5 David McDonald Program Administrator II with the 6 State Parks Division, 25 years of service and his 7 retirement certificate. 8 (Applause.) 9 MR. COOK: Next, we have Nancy Ziegler in 10 Coastal Fisheries Division, Administrative Tech IV, 11 Rockport, Texas, with 21 years of service. She is 12 retiring at this time. She has served at the Coastal 13 Fisheries Division Rockport Marine Lab since starting with 14 the agency as a secretary in 1981. She has advanced up 15 the career ladder rapidly during her tenure. She has been 16 nominated for employee performance recognition and awards. 17 She is responsible for assisting the regional director and 18 regional staff with a diverse range of administrative 19 challenges, ranging from routine monthly employee time 20 sheets to the more complex purchasing regulations and 21 insurance issues. She is well known for her friendly 22 telephone voice, positive attitude and outstanding 23 helpfulness. Nancy Ziegler retiring with 22 years of 24 service. 25 (Applause.) ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 20 1 MR. COOK: Thank you very much. 2 MS. ZIEGLER: Thank you. Thank you. 3 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Congratulations. 4 MR. COOK: Now receiving service awards, 5 first we have Norman Anthony, Game Warden V in the Law 6 Enforcement Division, Falfurrias, Texas, with 35 years of 7 Texas. Norman began his employment with TPWD in July, 8 1967 as a cadet in Zapata. After completion of the 21st 9 Game Warden Academy, he was assigned to Jim Hogg County 10 and lived in Hebbronville until June of 1974 when he was 11 transferred to Brooks County and has lived in Falfurrias 12 for the last 28 years, giving us a great service and a 13 great amount of work and effort and we appreciate it. 14 Norman Anthony, 20 -- 30 -- 35 years of service. 15 (Applause.) 16 MR. COOK: Next person many of you will 17 recognize. We've all encountered Sam Center, I think, at 18 one time or the other in our careers, and it's always been 19 with a pleasure. Sam Center, Captain in our Law 20 Enforcement Division, headquartered now out of Llano, 21 Texas, with 35 years of service. Sam began his employment 22 with TPWD in June, 1967. He graduated from the Game 23 Warden Academy in February, 1968 and was Game Warden at 24 Eagle Lake until November, 1980 when he was promoted to 25 District Supervisor in Region 9, District 2. He stayed in ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 21 1 Eagle Lake until he transferred to Llano in January of 2 1994 as District Supervisor in Region 7. With 35 years of 3 service, Sam Center. 4 (Applause.) 5 MR. COOK: Another employee with 35 years 6 of service, Robert Colura, Coastal Fisheries Division, 7 Manager III at Palacios. Robert Colura began his career 8 with the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department as an Area 9 Biologist stationed in Palacios, Texas, where he was 10 responsible for sample collections in Matagorda Bay. In 11 1972, he accepted a position in the Department's Perry R. 12 Bass Marine Fisheries Research Station where he began 13 research on pond culture of red drum and spotted seatrout. 14 In 1974, he became project leader for these studies. This 15 work led to the development of the Department's stocking 16 program for these species. 17 In addition to culture research, he has also 18 been involved in studies of red drum and spotted seatrout 19 age, growth, and reproductive biology. Life history 20 studies were expanded in 1988 to include southern 21 flounder, snook, tarpon, black drum and Atlantic croaker. 22 In 1993, Bob became the Director of the Science Program at 23 the Perry R. Bass laboratory responsible for the life 24 history and genetics programs at the facility. He is 25 currently serving as Acting Science Director for Coastal ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 22 1 Fisheries Division. Robert Colura, Manager III, Palacios, 2 Texas, 35 years. 3 (Applause.) 4 MR. COOK: Thanks, Robert. 5 Lawrence Barrientes with the State Parks 6 Division, Park Ranger V in Stonewall, Texas, with 30 years 7 of service. He began his career at the LBJ State Park in 8 March of 1972 as a seasonal technician. One of his 9 initial duties was transplanting approximately 500 sapling 10 trees, the bulk of which are now mature and doing well. 11 Lawrence has been a very important contributor to the 12 development and success of the LBJ State Park. He has 13 been employed at the park almost since it's beginning in 14 1970. He wears many hats and is a multitalented 15 individual. In his capacity as a Lead Ranger, he has 16 effectively supervised other employees. His loyalty, work 17 ethic, and dedication have consistently been above 18 reproach and he has been a tremendous asset not only to 19 the park but to the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department as 20 well. Congratulations and appreciation goes to Park 21 Ranger V, Lawrence Barrientos, Sr., for 30 years of 22 dedicated service as a public servant at the LBJ State 23 Park. Lawrence Barrientes. 24 (Applause.) 25 MR. COOK: This next employee is one that ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 23 1 we all know and love, Shirley Hoes in Land Conservation 2 Division, Administration Tech II here in Austin with 30 3 years of service. Shirley began her employment with TPWD 4 in August of 1970 as a secretary in the Parks Division, 5 working for Bill Collins, George Adams and John Prater. 6 She transferred, within the Parks Divisions to Special 7 Studies working for Mark Gosdin and Mike Herring, before 8 spending 16 years as Parks Division secretary, retiring in 9 1993. Couldn't stay away, though. She returned to work 10 part-time/seasonal in the Executive Office in June of '94; 11 then in January, 1996, she began working with the Land 12 Conservation group and has been there since. Shirley 13 Hoes, Administrative Tech II in our Land Conservation 14 group with 30 years of service. Shirley. 15 (Applause.) 16 MR. COOK: Mary-Love Bigony, managing 17 editor on the Texas Parks and Wildlife Magazine has 18 enjoyed a 25-year career at the magazine. She handles 19 coordination of the production schedule with the magazine 20 staff and vendors, as well as the layouts. She writes and 21 edits manuscripts, oversees fact-checking, caption writing 22 and proofreading, and supervises the magazine interns. 23 She has won numerous writing awards from the Association 24 of Conservation Information, Regional Magazine 25 Associations, International Regional Publishers ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 24 1 Association and the National Weather Association. With 2 her many years with the agency, Mary-Love brings to the 3 magazine extensive knowledge of the mission and scope of 4 the agency and numerous personal contacts in other 5 divisions and field offices. Mary-Love Bigony, 6 Communications Division, 25 years of service. 7 (Applause.) 8 MR. COOK: Well, this next person, the 9 Commissioners know well and I have -- I have learned to 10 appreciate very much, Michelle Klaus, Executive Assistant 11 with the Executive Office with -- you're probably not 12 going to believe this, 25 years of service. She told me 13 she began her tenure here when she was, like, seven or 14 eight years old. But it says right here Michelle began 15 her employment in June of 1997 [sic] in the Inland 16 Fisheries Division as a Secretary III. In 1980, she 17 transferred to the personnel office as a personal clerk -- 18 personnel clerk and worked for the director of personnel 19 for ten years. 20 In 1990, she landed her "dream job" in the 21 Executive Office. I'm not sure that she described it that 22 way, but she currently serves as Executive Assistant to 23 the Executive Director. She enjoys working with the 24 Commission, appreciates the wonderful people she has a 25 privilege to work with in the past and looks forward to ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 25 1 more opportunities in the future. 2 As you know, Commissioners, and staff, I -- I 3 moved to the Executive Office a few months ago. And I 4 will tell you without a shadow of a doubt, there has been 5 absolutely no point in time where Michelle didn't do 6 everything she could to keep me out of trouble and to 7 assist me in every way. I really appreciate it. Michelle 8 Klaus, 25 years of service. 9 (Applause.) 10 MR. COOK: Kim Ochs, in the State Parks 11 Division, began working for TPWD during the summers of 12 1976 and '77 at the Goose Island State Park in Rockport 13 and at Brown -- Lake Brownwood State Park in Brownwood 14 while attending college at Texas A&M. He began full-time 15 employment in February, 1978, at Lake Livingston. 16 In August of 1981, Kim was promoted to the 17 Assistant Manager at Lake Corpus Christi, and in July, 18 1986, was promoted to the Manager at Dangerfield State 19 Park, where he remains today. Kim Ochs in the State Parks 20 Division, Program Administrator IV with 25 years of 21 service. Kim. 22 (Applause.) 23 MR. COOK: Thank you, Kim. Thank you very 24 much. 25 (Applause.) ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 26 1 MR. COOK: Next we have Floyd D. Randolph, 2 a Park Ranger V in the State Parks Division at Livingston, 3 Texas, with 25 years of service. Floyd began his 4 employment with TPWD in June of 1977 as a seasonal 5 part-time employee at Lake Livingston State Park. He has 6 moved up the ladder from Park Ranger I to Park Ranger V 7 and has remained at Lake Livingston throughout his tenure. 8 Floyd Randolph, State Parks Division with 25 years of 9 service. 10 (Applause.) 11 MR. COOK: Ronnie Gallagher, State Parks 12 Division, Maintenance Specialist in Lubbock, Texas, with 13 20 years of service. Ronnie began his career with TPWD in 14 June of 1982 at the Palo Duro Canyon State Park as the 15 Assistant Park Manager. He served five years at that 16 location. Then he was promoted to Park Superintendent II 17 at Matagorda Island State Park in June of 1987. While 18 there, reclassified to a Conservation Outdoor Recreation 19 Specialist VI. He is currently the Region 6 Maintenance 20 Specialist at the Lubbock office. Ronnie Gallagher, State 21 Parks Division, with 20 years of service. 22 (Applause.) 23 MR. COOK: Next we have a gentleman in our 24 Resource Protection Division that we all care a lot about, 25 John Rollin Macrae in the Resource Protection Division, 20 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 27 1 years of service, Manager III here in Austin, Texas. In 2 his 20 years at the Parks and Wildlife Department he has 3 been in the Resource Protection Division. Rollin has been 4 instrumental in establishing all of the large wetland 5 mitigation banks and other conservation initiatives across 6 Texas. His tireless efforts toward wetland conservation 7 have inspired many, inside and outside the Department. 8 And he is considered by many of the biologists as a 9 mentor. 10 He has set standards for conservation that are 11 known and respected within the Department as well as in 12 other state and federal agencies. His dedication to 13 scientific facts has led to a consistent direction toward 14 conservation that is recognized statewide. He has led the 15 team that reviews 404 permits for urban and industrial 16 development in wetlands, to assure conservation 17 regulations are satisfied. His team looks at all Corps. 18 of Engineers permits and federal projects like the Gulf 19 Intra-coastal Waterway. So far, they have resulted in 20 over 30,000 acres of mitigation land. Rollin Macrae, 21 Resource Protection Division, with 20 years of service. 22 (Applause.) 23 MR. COOK: Brent Ortego in the Wildlife 24 Division and stationed in Victoria, Texas, he's a Program 25 Specialist V. Brent began working for TPWD in 1982 in the ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 28 1 Jasper office as a Liaison to the U.S. Forest Service. 2 Then he game became the Region 3 Technical Guidance 3 Biologist in 1985 and Nongame Biologist in 1988. Brent 4 transferred to the Nongame program in Austin in 1990 and 5 the Planning Program in '91. He served as area manager at 6 Mad Island Wildlife Management Area starting in 1992, 7 moved to Guadalupe Delta Wildlife Management Area in 1996. 8 Since 1999, he has held his current position, Wildlife 9 Diversity Biologist in Region 4. He is a past president 10 of the Texas Organization of Endangered Species and the 11 current president of the Texas Ornithological Society. 12 Brent Ortego, Wildlife Division, Victoria, Texas, with 20 13 years of service. 14 (Applause.) 15 MR. COOK: Richard Adam Ott in the Inland 16 Fisheries Division joined Texas Parks and Wildlife 17 Department in 1982. His first assignment was as the 18 Assistant Project Leader in Tyler where he worked with 19 Charlie Inman. He refers to this as attending the 20 University of Inman and feels that his time with Charlie 21 was instrumental in the development of his career. 22 Following Charlie's retirement in 1988, Richard competed 23 for and was promoted to Project Leader where he has been 24 since. In addition to acting as a fisheries manager for 25 major East Texas reservoirs, Rick has also been an active ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 29 1 researcher. Rick's research has resulted in authorship 2 and co-authorship of nine scientific papers. In recent 3 years, Rick has become more interested in development of 4 aquatic plant communities for fish habitat. He has 5 assisted in the development of a statewide aquatic habitat 6 initiative and has been active in the development of an 7 on-line habitat development manual through the Southern 8 Division American Fisheries Society Reservoir Committee. 9 Since 1998, Rick has been activity pursuing his Ph.D. in 10 Environmental Science through the Forestry Program at 11 Stephen F. Austin University. Richard Ott, Inland 12 Fisheries Division with 20 years of service. 13 (Applause.) 14 MR. COOK: Ricky W. Weinheimer in State 15 Parks Division, Exhibit Technician at Stonewall, Texas, 16 has been with the agency for 20 years. He began his 17 career at LBJ State Park 1982 as Park Ranger I. In 18 December, 1984, Ricky advanced to a Park Ranger II 19 beginning his career as an interpreter at the 20 Sauer-Beckmann Living History Farm. In April of 1987, 21 Ricky was promoted to Park Ranger III, as lead interpreter 22 at the Living History Farm. Currently Ricky is an Exhibit 23 Technician III and as an interpreter at the Sauer-Beckmann 24 Living History Farm, one of the premiere historic sites in 25 this Agency. Throughout the years as an interpreter, ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 30 1 Ricky has mastered many of the historic demonstrations 2 seen on a Hill Country farm at the turn of the century. 3 His last venture is learning the art of blacksmithing and 4 has made exceptional strides in this endeavor. 5 Ricky has played an integral part in the 6 development and success of the Sauer-Beckmann Living 7 History Farm and to the overall development of LBJ State 8 Park. He has provided valuable interpretive experience to 9 literally thousands of park visitors, both on and off 10 site, skillfully sharing pertinent information about our 11 culture and natural resources. His loyalty, work ethic, 12 and dedication have been consistently above reproach and 13 he is truly an ambassador for TPWD in its mission as a 14 conservation agency. In the year 2000, Ricky received the 15 award as "Employee of the Year in Region 7," a feat that 16 he is most proud of. 17 Ricky has worked in all areas of the park, 18 including park maintenance and visitors services at the 19 front desk. He always accepts any type of assignment and 20 gives it his best. Congratulations to Ricky Weinheimer, 21 20 years of exceptional service for TPWD. Ricky. 22 (Applause.) 23 MR. COOK: Thank you, sir. 24 (Applause.) 25 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 31 1 PRESENTATION - TEXAS RIVERS 2 MR. COOK: Thank you. Madame Chairman, 3 Commissioners, in May, Communications Director Lydia 4 Saldana briefed the Commission on the water communications 5 initiative that we're calling, "Texas, the State of 6 Water." 7 The July issue of the magazine was the first 8 volley in this effort and is the most comprehensive 9 publication we've ever produced on this important topic. 10 Today, we celebrate the publication of "Texas 11 Rivers," published by the Texas Parks and Wildlife 12 Department Press, this beautiful book features the prose 13 of legendary author John Graves and the wonderful 14 photography of Texas State photographer Wyman Meinzer. 15 Outside the Commission Hearing Room in the 16 lobby -- down at this end of the lobby, is a photo 17 exhibit, which I hope everyone will have a chance to look 18 at, which will travel to such high profile locations as 19 our State Capitol, the Texas Book festival, the Houston 20 Arboretum and to similar sites across the state. The 21 exhibit has been paid for by sponsor Brazos Mutual Funds, 22 which is also underwriting a PBS documentary which will 23 air next spring. 24 Wyman Meinzer joins us today to tell us a little 25 more about the book and to make a special presentation to ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 32 1 the Commission. Wyman. 2 MR. MEINZER: I want to take this 3 opportunity to thank the members of the Commission for 4 having me here this morning, giving me the opportunity to 5 be here and speak on behalf of the book. I also - I think 6 that John couldn't be here, but I would like to say on his 7 behalf that we owe you guys everything for supporting this 8 project. This endeavor would have been completely 9 impossible without your input and your support and there 10 are so many people - I can't name them all, but Susan 11 Ebert, Larry Hodge, Dr. Larry McKinney, Lydia Saldana - 12 everyone has been so good and has really kept this ball 13 rolling. It's been a long project, I know at times it 14 probably strung out to where everyone thought it would 15 never end, but I think that in light of the water issues 16 in Texas I think this was a time when the project ended at 17 a good point. So hopefully that it will be a positive 18 influence on people of the State and how they perceive the 19 water and our natural resources in Texas. 20 I will go into some slides here and a - or power 21 point and kind of give you a rundown of some of the things 22 that happened along the way. This first image is a shot 23 that I took on the Pecos River and I couldn't devote - I 24 think - it's like seven days on the river whenever you put 25 in -- it pandale (phonetic) in a canoe so I had a friend ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 33 1 of mine fly me in the helicopter and he flew from Dallas 2 and met me there. This is sort of a bittersweet moment - 3 actually this was - the moment that I took this shot, I 4 was kind of thrilled because previous to this I thought my 5 wife and my friend, the helicopter pilot, and his wife 6 probably had been killed in a crash because they said they 7 would be back in 45 minutes and I didn't see two of them 8 for two weeks. They flew over about 10 hours later and 9 dropped a message from an aircraft and let me know that 10 they were all okay. And so for the rest of the day I was 11 very happy very elated and took a lot of good images. 12 The Sabinal River - you know - it's a very 13 small, very short in the state - only about 60 miles in 14 length, but I tell ya, it's probably the cleanest river 15 and it's lined with cypress trees, it's a gorgeous stretch 16 of water. Definitely one that's a jewel for the State. 17 And I remember on this particular shot, I was headed to a 18 ridge above the Sabinal valley that morning with a rancher 19 and as we crossed the river on his ranch, I just said stop 20 here Billy, this is the place - we'll go to the high 21 country some other time. So this particular shot is on 22 private land holdings. And I might mention also before we 23 go further that everywhere we went in the State where we 24 described the purpose -- I don't know what's happening 25 here, Lydia. It's going crazy. I'm going to put it down ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 34 1 just for a moment. But everywhere that we went - and 2 described the purpose of our endeavor that people embraced 3 us - everywhere. And they love the idea of Texas Parks 4 and Wildlife was supporting this and they thought it was 5 for a great cause because of the water issues that we're 6 faced with. And so - I felt like that John Graves and I 7 were more or less sort of like embassadors for Texas Parks 8 and Wildlife and everywhere that we encountered 9 individuals along the rivers never were we met with a 10 negative approach - no one ever considers anything but -- 11 but there for a good cause. So I just thought you might 12 be interested in that. 13 And I tell you working with John Graves was an 14 absolute pleasure. He is an icon of Texas writers, a 15 gentleman of the highest order. My wife says I didn't 16 take any of that from him, but I tried. I was with him 17 for three years up and down these rivers. Boating, and 18 flying and walking and whatever, but John is just a great 19 person and his writing style is just -- I don't know - it 20 sets a mood for the book. it just makes you - you know - 21 really appreciate it even more. I mean - I say - you know 22 -- the photographs people say well, the photographs are so 23 great. I say - read the words, the words really tell the 24 story. I mean John Graves in his voice is unparalleled. 25 So when you take the work and you flip through it, ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 35 1 visually you - I hope you'll be impressed, but take those 2 words and take them to heart because John Graves wrote 3 from the heart on this one. As we does always. 4 Here we are with Jack Scowles who is an author 5 and a rancher on the Pecos River. We're above a location 6 there way far in the outback. I might mention that I 7 wanted, in photographing the river, I wanted to cover 8 mainly private land holdings to show people that great 9 areas still exist along our rivers that's not necessarily 10 within the realm or within the parameters of the public 11 where they can actually get to them. I have a tendency to 12 believe that sometimes people say - well, all we got left 13 are the parks and that's wonderful, but beyond the parks 14 there are fabulous places and I think this might enhance 15 people's appreciation for the rivers beyond what they see 16 along the roadways. And so we sought out locations on 17 these private ranches and to show that the ranchers are 18 great stewards of the land. 19 This is a special moment on the Llano River with 20 John Graves as he's tying a fly. I savor these memories. 21 And here I am at pontoon crossing with John as he is 22 GPSing the location where there was an old stage stop and 23 an old bridge there (pointing) in the 1800s where soldiers 24 from Fort Lancaster would come often to try to protect the 25 people passing through to the gold fields in California - ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 36 1 try to protect them from Indian attacks. 2 And here is what I would call the Kit Carson de 3 Plains. That's John talking to Alvin Lynn. Alvin Lynn is 4 the geologist, an archaeologist, an educator from Amarillo 5 and one of the things I found early on in this project was 6 that - and - I wasn't familiar, except for the Canadian, I 7 wasn't familiar with any of these areas of the State - you 8 know - in-depth - you know intimately. So I had to find 9 someone in each location that knew the land and the people 10 and the river and so the first guy I came upon the 11 Canadian was Alvin Lynn and he knew every trail from the 12 1840s, Kit Carson up to the present day and he was a 13 priceless individual to have there - a source of 14 information and so my friend Kanut Millhouse offered his 15 services of the helicopter to take us to some of the 16 wilder and woollier places along the rivers and it was 17 just a tremendous experience all the way. 18 Here we are on the Neches River after checking a 19 little throw line. James Smith, he was my Kit Carson on 20 the Neches River. James, since this picture was taken, 21 has since lost his wife unfortunately and I talk to him 22 frequently. The beauty of this also, sort of an ancillary 23 positive note on this book is that I made a lot of friends 24 along the way on these rivers. Lots of friends that I'll 25 always remember and I'll keep in contact with. James so ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 37 1 graciously allowed us - John and I to stay in his river 2 house and cooked his catfish and told us some good stories 3 about the big thicket country in East Texas. And here is 4 John sharing some - or actually Greg - I don't recall his 5 last name, but on the Sabinal River he's sharing some 6 information about the river. He was our guide there on 7 the Sabinal. We were sitting at a park, their city park 8 studying maps. And Greg and John strolling down the side 9 of the river there beneath the canopy of cypress trees. 10 And then John Graves taking a little respite 11 from the canoe trip on the Llano to do a little fly 12 fishing. We had a lot of people really support us along 13 the way. Furnish canoes, food - we just had a lot of 14 support from all over the state. And it just shows that a 15 lot of people really consider this a wonderful project. 16 John writing notes - you know - I guess if I live to be 17 125 years old - I'll always regret one photograph that I 18 missed along the way and we were sitting on the banks on a 19 cliff about 300 feet above the Pecos River and it was late 20 in the afternoon and I had three cameras set up. I had 21 one on the River and two on some Indian rock art. And 22 that's all the cameras I had with me that day and I looked 23 over and John was sitting on a big boulder with his legs 24 hanging off and the river stretching in the distance at 25 sunset and I started to grab one of those cameras and I ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 38 1 didn't do it, to take a picture of that, and every time I 2 see a photograph that I've taken of John, I will always 3 regret that one that I missed. I guess that's the way we 4 photographers are, though. 5 And here's John and Susan Ebert doing a little 6 fishing, canoeing on the Sabinal. She took some time to 7 spend with us along the river there a day. Had a great 8 time. 9 And you know, it's really funny. I wanted to 10 really cover the personalities along the river - each 11 river - and believe me I saw some real neat people. And 12 especially on the Neches. I'm a plains person. I love 13 the wide open country and I was a little apprehensive 14 about going to the big thicket in East Texas, but once I 15 got there I realized that people there are Texans just 16 like they are in Presidio, just like they are in - you 17 know - Brownsville and in Amarillo. But I heard about 18 this guy who lived way out on the river about 10 miles 19 from the closest bridge and so one of the game wardens 20 there took me to this fellow's house and he lived there 21 and lived off of a trout line. And he so graciously let 22 us come into this little house here. This was what he 23 lived on besides his fish. And he let me come inside and 24 photograph him sitting at this table by his bed. I might 25 mention that the game wardens and biologists along the way ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 39 1 - helpful as they could be. Fabulous. When I couldn't 2 find the local, when I first went in to a river sometimes 3 I couldn't find a local - you know - that I could work 4 with - you know - I had to spend several days - and the 5 game warden would pick me up and say hey I can take you to 6 some places and let you meet some people. So they were 7 there at every turn and I really appreciate it. This is 8 on the Neches River. 9 Here is Mr. Lloyd Goodrich. He's a Pecos River 10 man. Lloyd - when I first drove up to his house there on 11 the Pecos - I thought my goodness - you know - I really 12 found a character here, but looking at Lloyd - you know - 13 I learned right then you don't ever underestimate anyone. 14 This man has two degrees in engineering, but he chooses to 15 live on the Pecos River in a real forbidding land - almost 16 inhospitable land. And just a gracious person spent time, 17 let me photograph all I wanted to and just shared some 18 good moments with me. I really appreciate Lloyd and all 19 the people like little Patty Brooks - 92 years old and 20 beautiful and spent an afternoon with her. She lives in 21 ______. Her life also being shaped by the Pecos River. 22 This is my wife - sometimes she accompanied me on these 23 trips. On this particular one, we were on historically 24 one of the most evil crossings on the Pecos River - Horse 25 Head crossing. So when as I was waiting for the sun to ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 40 1 set and a Comanche moon to rise and I said, "Go over there 2 and pick up that pistol and puff on that cigar for me and 3 let's get a picture of a tough woman on a tough river 4 crossing." She'll kill me when she finds out I did this. 5 I'm dead meat. But this is one of our camps also along 6 the Pecos. This is where we flew into with the 7 helicopter. Actually what happened, my friend dropped me 8 off at this camp - said, "I'll be back in 45 minutes" and 9 I saw him two weeks later. So you can imagine my 10 apprehension all night long as I lay in my sleeping bag 11 and literally cried. I cried, I prayed, the only thing I 12 could see in my mind was them piled up somewhere with a 13 buzzard in the cockpit. We saw a lot of them coming in, 14 but the next morning I heard the drum of a plane as it 15 came over and I thought - you know - no one can navigate 16 but Kanut Millhouse like that, come right to this camp and 17 sure enough came up the river, threw out a milk jug with a 18 message in it and said we're okay, we'll pick you up this 19 afternoon. So - and here's John again on the Sabinal 20 writing. Writing notes. And John and I just taking a 21 little respite on the banks of the river. 22 I'll cherish this time. Again I want to thank 23 you for making it possible for me to do this with John 24 Graves and to work with all of you people and to work with 25 the State of Texas. It was an honor that highlights my ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 41 1 career. 2 One more real neat individual, Mr. Dude 3 Fountain. Dude lives on the Angelina, but was raised on 4 the Neches. And, Dude - one of the game wardens there 5 when we drove by and saw Dude sitting on the porch and 6 said - let me go talk to Dude. He might not want anybody 7 around today and then he waved me over and said 8 everything's okay. And so we went in and shot Dude and 9 had a good visit and found out some neat things about the 10 life of Dude Fountain and the Neches River. James again 11 on the Neches. John again late in the afternoon on the 12 Pecos. Another good helper on the Pecos. 13 Thank you so much, I can't express my 14 appreciation enough. Thank you. 15 (Applause.) 16 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: On behalf of the 17 Commission, I want to thank Wyman and John Graves for this 18 spectacular effort. You've done a great honor to Texas 19 beauties - our rivers. And I also want to say that both 20 you and Mr. Graves are also Texas treasures and we're so 21 fortunate to have the two of you express this very 22 important subject matter. I don't think anyone in this 23 room doubts the importance of the water issue. We're 24 going to all have to work together. Government agencies, 25 our leaders, industry, Texas Parks and Wildlife, and ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 42 1 citizens to be sure and express with a firm and coherent 2 voice the importance of these natural treasures and the 3 importance of plentiful and clean water to the state, to 4 its citizens, and to its wildlife. Thank you, Wyman. 5 PRESENTATION - NATIONAL FISHING INSTITUTE CONSERVATION 6 AWARD 7 MR. COOK: Madame Chairman, Commissioners. 8 There are five species of sea turtle that live in the Gulf 9 of Mexico. Four of these are on the threatened species 10 list and the other - the ridley - the Kemp's ridley is 11 actually considered the most endangered seat turtle in the 12 world. The Department has a long history of active 13 conservation efforts to recover this species. Those 14 efforts include support of the "head-starting" program in 15 the late 1980's which released over 15,000 Kemp's ridleys 16 off Padre Island to help create a secondary nesting site. 17 The Commission has also adopted conservation measures to 18 balance sea turtle protection with shrimp industry needs. 19 Lastly, we have provided direct funding in support of 20 turtle nest protection on both Padre Island and Ranch 21 Nuevo, Mexico, the primary Kemp's ridley nesting site in 22 the Gulf. 23 I'm happy to introduce to you today three 24 gentlemen who have also contributed significantly to sea 25 turtle conservation efforts: Mr. Dick Gutting with the ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 43 1 National Fishing Institute in Washington, D.C., Mr. Les 2 Hodgsen with Marcos Seafood in Brownsville, and Mr. Pat 3 Burchfield with the Glady's Porter Zoo in Brownsville. 4 They are here to present the Department with an award for 5 some of our conservation efforts. I'll now ask these 6 gentlemen and Hal Osburn, the coastal Fisheries Division 7 Director, to join me at the podium. 8 MR. HODGSEN: Madame Chairman and 9 Commissioners, Texas Parks and Wildlife Department, and 10 friends. In 1983, the Kemp's ridley sea turtle hit the 11 lowest point, the fewest number of nesting females on 12 record and in that year the decision was made to do 13 everything possible to try and keep from losing this 14 magnificent species. There were times when some of the 15 laws came into direct conflict with the fishing industry. 16 As a representative of the seafood industry here in the 17 United States, we were more than concerned about what was 18 happening. We went to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife's 19 international coordinator for the project and asked him to 20 come to speak to our association which he did and he 21 explained to us that the problem with the Kemp's ridley 22 sea turtle was that there has been almost a one hundred 23 percent take of the eggs off the nesting beach in Mexico 24 and that efforts were being made worldwide to try and help 25 out that situation, but if we wanted to really recuperate ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 44 1 the species, we had to do it where the problem existed. 2 And that was on the beaches in Mexico. So the National 3 Fisheries Institute, the Texas Shrimp Association, and the 4 Commande Duestre Pescada (phonetic) actually bought land, 5 constructed a camp at Tepe Quajes (phonetic). Then we 6 went to the National Marine Fisheries here in the United 7 States and got support for building other camps on the 8 Mexican coast and what we have realized is that with the 9 success that we have enjoyed with this project also goes a 10 lot more expense and we couldn't do it alone. We have had 11 to go out and look for other partners that would help with 12 the bi-national project. The last award that we presented 13 went to Honda America for helping us with the motor breaks 14 down on the beach and this year we're very honored to 15 present our award to Texas Parks and Wildlife. To tell 16 you exactly what your money has gone to, your significant 17 contributions, I'd like to ask the U.S. Coordinator for 18 the bi-national project, Dr. Patrick Burchfield to explain 19 a little bit about what your money's gone to and how the 20 project is coming along. 21 DR. BURCHFIELD: Thank you, Les, and thank 22 you for inviting us here today. It's really an honor to 23 be here and going back to 1978 when the bi-national 24 program began, Texas Parks and Wildlife was one of those 25 agencies instrumental in creating the bi-national effort ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 45 1 to save the world's most endangered seat turtle. As 2 Mr. Hodgsen mentioned, by 1985 Kemp's ridley turtle had 3 reached a low point with only 702 nests for an entire 4 season as opposed to 40,000 plus turtles that crawled to 5 shore one day in 1947. But despite the early losses and 6 the fact that it seemed as though the turtle was in 7 absolute danger of becoming extinct, with time and 8 perseverance and more partners and more participation of 9 more agencies, we're on the road to recovery. This year 10 we protected 6,436 nests on the Mexican coast line and I 11 just got the data yesterday, we so far this year have 12 released 402,969 Kemp's ridley hatchlings back into the 13 Gulf of Mexico. And inasmuch as sea turtles know no 14 boundaries, they are a shared species. Texas and 15 Tamaluipas have been critical partners in the effort to 16 recover this species. We now have instead of the original 17 31 kilometers that we patrolled for three months, we have 18 a hundred miles of beach from La Pesca all the way into 19 Vera Cruz, six camps and for nine months out of the year, 20 we have more than 35 biologists plus volunteers working in 21 all of those camps. In large part, it's thanks to the 22 participation of the Texas Parks and Wildlife in the last 23 several years in particular that we've even been able to 24 make a beginning of the season in order to try and help 25 this species to recover. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 46 1 MR. GUTTING: Madame Chairman and members 2 of the Commission, I know you and certainly the audience 3 knows that this is a very strange moment in tome. Too 4 often when shrimp fishermen come here, people are fearful, 5 worried, angry. We know you have a very tough job. We 6 know you have to balance interests. But what we 7 unfortunately forget to do sometimes is to say thank you. 8 That's why I came from Washington, D.C., to say "thank 9 you." The destiny of our shrimp is linked to the future 10 of the turtles. And it took vision on your part to see 11 that the solution - part of the solution was on the 12 beaches in Mexico. Your support has made a real 13 difference, you have made a real difference. I travel 14 around the world and meet with many, many people, you 15 should take pride, you have done something here - reached 16 out beyond your borders, something extraordinary and you 17 have made a difference and we're very grateful and thank 18 you very much. 19 (Photographs were taken.) 20 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: You're right indeed - 21 it does feel a little strange three years ago when I first 22 came on the Commission this was - needless to say a very, 23 very contentious subject. We appreciate your kind words. 24 All too often I think - we don't recognize the success 25 stories when groups can come together and cooperate to the ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 47 1 benefit of, in this case, the turtle, and the shrimping 2 industry participating. Thank you so much for being here 3 today. It's great. Thank you. 4 (Applause.) 5 AGENDA ITEM NO. 1: ACTION - APPROVAL OF AGENDA 6 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Gene McCarty, could I 7 have clarification as to the order that we will be 8 following? 9 MR. McCARTY: We should start with the 10 Action Item - Approval of the Agenda and then move Item 6 11 to the top of the agenda and then go back in order. 12 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: All right. I don't 13 think I have that in front of me if you could get it for 14 me, please. But first I'll go ahead and ask for approval 15 of the agenda. 16 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: So moved. 17 COMMISSIONER HENRY: So moved. 18 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: All in favor? 19 ("Aye.") 20 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Opposed? Motion 21 carries. 22 We will be moving Item 6 to -- is that correct? 23 Here we go. Sorry about that. We're going to be moving 24 Item 6 which is an action item, Regional Park Grants to 25 the next item on the agenda and then we'll go back to the ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 48 1 normal order. Tim Hogsett, please. 2 AGENDA ITEM NO. 6: ACTION - REGIONAL PARK GRANT FUNDING 3 MR. HOGSETT: Good morning. Members of the 4 Commission, I'm Tim Hogsett, Director of Recreation Grants 5 Program in the State Parks Division. We're proposing 6 funding for Regional Park Grants this morning. 7 The program is designed to support 8 multijurisdictional projects of regional significance in 9 those serving Metropolitan areas. The kinds of projects 10 typically that we fund are intensive-use recreation or 11 regional conservation and recreation projects. The Vice 12 Chairman asked me yesterday in the briefing that we gave 13 to give you a little more information about the scoring 14 criteria for this program. We look first at compliance on 15 any existing grants and then additional priority is given 16 for acquisition that involves either intensive recreation, 17 linear greenways or conservation acquisitions. 18 We give additional priority when there are 19 partnerships involving the match between political 20 jurisdictions and where there are comprehensive plans in 21 place that show the need for the regional park. We give 22 additional priority for projects that involve multiple 23 jurisdictions in programming of the use of the site. 24 We give additional priority for match from the 25 private sector, where there is a partnership -- public and ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 49 1 private partnership. Dedication of publicly-owned 2 nonparkland. We give additional priority for projects 3 that involve acquisition and/or development of water 4 access, water-based recreation or aquatic habitat 5 conservation. 6 We also give additional priority to projects 7 that involve the preservation of natural resources that do 8 not involve water. Linkages between political 9 jurisdictions, such as trails or waterways and, finally, 10 we give additional priority to projects that involve 11 conservation of natural resources such as green 12 construction-type projects. 13 We received five applications for the June 1st 14 deadline requesting $7.2 million. We have scored the 15 applications using the criteria that I just showed you 16 that the Commission has adopted and we're recommending 17 funding for one project in the amount of $2 million. 18 So the recommendation I bring forward to you is 19 funding for the projects listed in Exhibit A in the amount 20 of $2 million is approved as described for individual 21 projects in Exhibit B. I think you may have some 22 testimony, and I would also be happy to answer any 23 questions. 24 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: We have some 25 testimony. Do you -- does the Commission have any ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 50 1 questions or comments of Mr. Hogsett? We'll hear the 2 testimony then. First is Greg Westmoreland. But before 3 Mr. Westmoreland comes over here -- you can come on up. I 4 want to recognize Representative Uher who is here today. 5 Thank you for coming. Would you stand up. 6 (Applause.) 7 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Would you like to make 8 a comment and we can put you on the list. 9 REPRESENTATIVE UHER: You can put me behind 10 the fine judge of Matagorda County. 11 MR. WESTMORELAND: Thank you, 12 Representative. Thank you, Madame Chairman. I'm Greg 13 Westmoreland. I'm the county judge of Matagorda County. 14 It's a pleasure to speak to you today. I will tell you 15 this project is very, very important to Matagorda County. 16 LCRA has done us a great favor by coming down and choosing 17 our county to put in this nature park. We know that this 18 grant is a very important part of that project. We're 19 here to enthusiastically support it and thank you and 20 thank the staff very much for their high scoring. I 21 congratulate them and thank them for recognizing a good 22 project when they see it. It's going to be a great 23 regional project, seriously. It's good for our county, 24 but it's good for the whole region. We unfortunately 25 suffer from flat growth in our county. We had less than 3 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 51 1 percent growth in the last census from 1990. We do have 2 double-digit unemployment. So quite frankly, we could use 3 the business. We appreciate it very much and thanks for 4 letting me talk. 5 (Applause.) 6 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Representative Uher. 7 REPRESENTATIVE UHER: Madame Chairman, I'm 8 Tom Uher. I'm the speaker pro temporary of the Texas 9 House and then the Dean of the House, and I want to tell 10 you I've spent many a year where you are, behind committee 11 hearings, knowing the effort that you put in. 12 My first term of office there was an attempt to 13 split Parks and Wildlife back to two separate agencies. I 14 was one of those that believed that the Parks and Wildlife 15 mission was important to the future of this state. So 16 1969, we didn't change that. We've kept it in place and 17 over the years, your predecessors where you sit have done 18 a wonderful job of preserving the wildlife of this state 19 and providing recreation for many, many Texans. 20 When I first got elected there were about 21 9 million Texans in this great wonderful state of ours and 22 today we're on the 22 million. Lot of changes. As a 23 result of lot of changes today, we have a different 24 mission as we approach what our role might be through this 25 agency office and what we might do to compliment your ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 52 1 efforts and your direction and your vision for the people 2 in this great state. 3 This project at the mouth of the Colorado is 4 going to be one of those exceptional projects that will 5 serve not just our immediate region, but it will also 6 serve the Metropolitan areas of Harris County, Fort Bend, 7 Brazoria, Montgomery Counties. About one-fourth of the 8 population will be within about an hour-and-a-half drive 9 to this new park site. 10 Interestingly, the Matagorda County has been the 11 number one birding center for the past four years. 12 There's an interest in birding that as a country boy I was 13 more interested in hunting and animal husbandry than 14 anything else, but I see today that we have a different 15 type of population with different interests. So the work 16 that you do and the recognition that you have for this 17 project is -- to me is very outstanding. 18 My first year or so I attempted to get the Parks 19 and Wildlife to buy some of this same land that is now 20 this LCRA 1,600-acre preserve. It will be a very positive 21 effort for our region. But it's going to do a lot for our 22 immediate area of Matagorda County. We're an interesting 23 county because we're primarily agricultural and oil and 24 gas, but we also have the nuclear plant there. We have 25 almost pristine beaches compared to other places in the ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 53 1 state that's available for this. This project will bring 2 that part of our state, that nature to people of all walks 3 of life. So this project that has been recommended by 4 your very capable and able staff will compliment that and 5 supplement that in so many ways and certainly will give to 6 young school children the opportunity to come and have 7 almost a hands-on approach to that part of our wildlife, 8 this great center of nature. It will also be a place for 9 adults to come and study what we have. 10 And so I see that it's going to do a lot for our 11 region. It will create almost $8 million in economic 12 activity. It will create over 100-plus jobs. We think 13 that over the years once it's operational that we'll see 14 anywhere from 100,000 to 200,000 visitors each year. So 15 the prospects of this and so hopefully you will approve 16 this project and help the program move along and get it 17 into operation. 18 Again, I want to thank you for your service, 19 because you spend many long hours up here, and I know it 20 sometimes gets awfully tiring, some of the challenges that 21 you have. So thank you from the bottom of my heart for 22 the years of service that you've given here, Madame 23 Chairman, and also the leadership and direction that you 24 provide for the future in this state. 25 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 54 1 (Applause.) 2 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Donna Brasher. 3 MS. BRASHER: Good morning, Madame Chair, 4 and members of the Commission. I wanted to let you now 5 how much LCRA appreciates the opportunity to work with you 6 once again on a large regional project. Just to let you 7 know, the $2 million should, you approve it today, will be 8 leveraged into a $15 million project. You know as well as 9 I do that the -- the business of providing parks and open 10 spaces for our public constituents in the State of Texas 11 is not business as usual. So it's going to take these 12 kinds of creative partnerships in order for us to provide 13 what we lack so desperately and what we're behind at 14 providing. So thank you very much for your consideration. 15 (Applause,) 16 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Commissioner Angelo, 17 do you have a question or comment? 18 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: I would like to ask 19 Tim a question. It was discussed yesterday, there's 20 been -- some of the folks that have applied for this grant 21 have at least been a little concerned about some of the 22 criteria and whether or not the -- particularly the water 23 aspect of it is totally fair since a fair part of the 24 state is not blessed with water resources. Do you -- do 25 you feel that the guidelines need to be tweaked a little ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 55 1 bit, or are you satisfied that they really give a fair 2 opportunity to everybody? 3 MR. HOGSETT: Well, we really don't have 4 enough mileage in this program for me to make a real 5 precise judgment on that. I will say that the scoring 6 system that you adopted was different from the scoring 7 system that we used in our two pilot reviews that we did, 8 two pilot awards in that as a result specifically of some 9 testimony that we heard out in Midland at our public 10 hearing, we added the criteria -- a ten-point criteria for 11 the conservation of natural resource sites that don't 12 involve water. So I hope that that will be sufficient. 13 It might be that we may need to consider raising the point 14 value there some -- somewhat. 15 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: Well, there's no 16 question that this project today that you're recommending 17 is a superb example of what the whole program is about. 18 But I think since this a fairly new program for us, we 19 need to keep on top of the scoring system and make sure 20 that you all are satisfied that it's -- that it is fair 21 and that the comments you're receiving from people that 22 are making applications, if they have some ideas that need 23 to be incorporated that we -- we look carefully at doing 24 that. 25 MR. HOGSETT: Absolutely. We will. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 56 1 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: Thank you. 2 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Are there any comments 3 or questions from any of the other Commissioners? If 4 there are not, do I have a motion? 5 COMMISSIONER AVILA: So moved. 6 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Second? 7 COMMISSIONER WATSON: Second. 8 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: All in favor? 9 ("Aye.") 10 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Motion carries. 11 MR. HOGSETT: Thank you. 12 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you, Tim. 13 "Funding for projects listed in Exhibit A in the amount of 14 $2,000,000 is approved, as described for individual 15 projects in Exhibit B." 16 AGENDA ITEM NO. 2: BRIEFING - TEXAS WILDLIFE EXPO 17 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: The next item, Item 18 No. 2 is a briefing, Texas wildlife Expo. Ernie Gammage 19 will present. 20 (Whereupon a briefing was presented to the 21 Commission, the following proceedings were 22 heard:) 23 AGENDA ITEM NO. 3: BRIEFING - TPWD/USFWS RELATIONS 24 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: The next item on the 25 agenda is also a briefing item, Texas Parks and Wildlife ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 57 1 Department and U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Relations. 2 I want to welcome Dale Hall, our Regional Director for 3 Fish and Wildlife based in Albuquerque. 4 (Whereupon a briefing was presented to the 5 Commission, the following proceedings were 6 heard:) 7 AGENDA ITEM NO. 4: ACTION - LOCAL PARK GRANT FUNDING 8 OUTDOOR RECREATION GRANTS 9 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: The next item is an 10 action item, Local Park Funding Outdoor Recreation Grants, 11 Tim Hogsett. 12 MR. HOGSETT: Good morning, again. We're 13 presenting for your consideration today grants under the 14 Outdoor Recreation Grant portion of the Texas Recreation 15 and Parks Account. 16 We received 38 applications for our January 1st 17 deadline requesting approximately $15.7 million. All the 18 applications were reviewed, site visits performed and 19 scored according to the criteria that you've adopted for 20 the program. These are rank ordered and can be found in 21 Exhibit A of this item, and we're recommending funding for 22 the top 15 projects for $6.6 million in matching funds. 23 The highest scoring project is a record high score and the 24 lowest scoring project that we're recommending is also a 25 record bar if you are -- our recommendation that we bring ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 58 1 before you is funding for the projects listed in Exhibit A 2 in the amount of $6,607,022 is approved as described for 3 individual projects in Exhibit B. And I'll be glad to 4 answer any questions that you have. 5 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: Any questions before 6 we take public testimony? Thank you, Tim. We'll maybe 7 get back to you. Jonathan Schulz, I believe, would like 8 to speak on this item. 9 MR. SCHULZ: Yes, sir, Thank you. 10 Commissioners, we're grateful to be here today. I am the 11 mayor of the City of Karnes City. We are in contention 12 for the grant today for half a million dollars to build a 13 park in our city. We haven't had a park there since I was 14 a young man, and we have quite a few business people and 15 individuals who have donated their time and their property 16 to build a beautiful 23-acre park in the City of Karnes 17 City. One that I know the City of Karnes City and Texas 18 Parks and Wildlife will be proud to be a part of, and we 19 appreciate your consideration. Thank you. 20 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: Thank you for being 21 here. Randy Truesdell. 22 MR. TRUESDELL: Good morning, 23 Commissioners. My name is Randy Truesdell. I'm the 24 Director of Parks and Recreation for the City of Lubbock. 25 I wanted to come down today and just express our ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 59 1 appreciation for your consideration of this grant funding. 2 This funding will be used to develop McAlister Park which 3 is in southwest Lubbock. It's a 270-acre park. 4 We've developed many partnerships to bring this 5 park into existence. One of those is with U.S. Fish and 6 Wildlife in developing a habitat for burrowing owls. That 7 will be a place for many people to come out and enjoy the 8 activities of the burrowing owls. I would also like to 9 recognize and thank you Hogsett and Jeff Hauff and Elaine 10 Dill for their assistance. They've been very professional 11 and they've answered all our questions and very willing to 12 work with us in this process. I want to thank you again 13 and invite you to come to Lubbock and enjoy our open 14 spaces, our parks and we would certainly welcome a visit 15 from you. Thank you. 16 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: Hollis Rutledge. I 17 should say my good friend Hollis Rutledge. 18 MR. RUTLEDGE: I wish to yield, if I may, 19 Mr. Angelo, to our mayor who will be speaking on behalf of 20 the City of Pharr, and I thank you all very much for 21 considering our application. 22 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: Very good. 23 MR. PALACIOS: Good morning, Madame 24 Chairman, members of the Board, Executive Director and 25 Staff. My name is Leo Palacios, mayor of City of Pharr. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 60 1 I'm here for the City of Pharr. I would like at this time 2 to extend a -- my most sincerest appreciation for the 3 consideration you have given to our application for a 4 project that we have been trying to get approved for the 5 last few years. We appreciate it very much. We want to 6 thank you all for taking time to consider this 7 application. This grant will help the City of Pharr, 8 change the quality of life of, many, many people in our 9 area. And again, we want to extend our appreciation for 10 allowing to us to participate in this grant and hopefully 11 that you will grant us this application, this grant, and 12 you will help us to make this project a reality. If not 13 so, we'll probably have to put it back on the back burner 14 for another couple of years. So thank you again on behalf 15 of the City of Pharr and God bless you. 16 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: Thank you. 17 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Tony McGee and Hector 18 Palacios. 19 MR. McGEE: Chairman Armstrong and members 20 of the Commission, I'm the mayor of Wimberley. With me 21 here today is our former major, Linda Hewlett, a member of 22 our City Council, Martha Niece, and chairman of our parks 23 and recreation board, Chris Kusak (phonetic), all of whom 24 have put in a tremendous amount of work on the application 25 that you're considering on behalf of Wimberley this ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 61 1 morning. I hasten to add that Linda is our former mayor, 2 because she chose not to seek re-election to the office, 3 not because the voters swept her out and swept me in. 4 Wimberley wishes to express its appreciation to 5 the staff of the Parks and Wildlife Commission that helped 6 us with this, and particularly Elaine Dill. Wimberley is 7 a newly incorporated city and this for us was an initial 8 endeavor and so we -- we appreciated it very much the help 9 that we got. We scored very high on -- from our 10 application, and I believe that our high score, while 11 there was a great deal of effort put into it, I believe 12 the reason we scored so high was because of the uniqueness 13 of this parkland that will be possible with your grant. 14 It's located in the geographic and population center of 15 Wimberley. It is a virgin stand of cypress trees along a 16 natural creek that flows from Jacob's Well, which is a 17 spring -- spring-fed creek. It will provide access to the 18 beauty and naturalness of the Hill Country to the tourists 19 that come to our area from not only the whole State of 20 Texas, but from all over the United States and, for that 21 matter, the world. 22 It -- it has a more -- I believe a more 23 significant reason for being considered for a grant. 24 Those of us that live in the Hill Country always 25 appreciate its beauty, but we sometimes don't realize that ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 62 1 most of the people that see that beauty, they see it from 2 a car kind of driving through. They see it from a 3 distance. Unless they're fortunate to be invited by a 4 private landowner, they don't get to see it up close. 5 This is a pristine area of the Hill Country that 6 has not ever been developed, and it will be made available 7 on a close inspection basis to all of the public. We 8 placed the nature -- a conservation easement on it which 9 will ensure that it will always remain in its natural 10 state for the benefit of -- of generations to come. And 11 so we would -- we would very earnestly request that -- 12 that this grant be -- be approved and that we pledge 13 ourselves to very wisely and -- and diligently to spend 14 this grant in accordance with your guidelines. Thank you. 15 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. Hector 16 Palacios. 17 MR. PALACIOS: Madame Chair, Commissioners, 18 good morning. If you see any resemblance between Mayor 19 Palacios and myself, he is my brother. 20 MR. LEO PALACIOS: I'm the old one. 21 MR. HECTOR PALACIOS: Yes, you are. I'm 22 here on behalf of Hidalgo County. We have submitted an 23 application and this is the second time we've gone through 24 the process. I certainly appreciate any consideration and 25 ask for your approval. This particular facility will sit ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 63 1 in an area that has about 40, 45 colonias within a 2 two-mile area and it's north of the City of San Juan which 3 has a population of -- of about 25, 30,000 people. Some 4 of you are familiar with Hidalgo County. It's right on 5 the border, and consequently, we have the distinction or 6 misfortune having most of the colonias in South Texas in 7 our area. This area has been grossly unserviced in the 8 past, not necessarily from your department, but I'm 9 talking local folks and we're gone a long ways, come a 10 long ways. And I think this will continue to allow to 11 improve the quality of life for a lot of people in the 12 area. And I certainly ask for your blessings and your 13 approval of this application. Thank you. 14 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 15 MR. HECTOR PALACIOS: Are there any 16 questions? 17 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Are there any 18 questions from the Commission or comments? Mr. Ramos? 19 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: The only comment that 20 I have is I admire you for coming back. This should be an 21 example, that just because you don't get your application 22 granted the first time, if you're persistent and you work 23 with staff, you have a good shot at it. And again, I 24 thank staff not only with your project, but others and 25 this should be an example of persistence and additionally ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 64 1 for taking the initiative to identify areas like what you 2 have. I'm from Laredo and I'm very sensitive to and very 3 much aware of the colonia issues, so I admire you all for 4 doing that. 5 MR. HECTOR PALACIOS: Thank you, 6 Commissioner. By the way, the staff has been great. They 7 have been very helpful. So thank you again. 8 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Are there any further 9 comments or questions from the Commission? 10 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: Excuse me. 11 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Excuse me. 12 Commissioner Fitzsimons has a comment or question. 13 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: I wanted to also, 14 after Commissioner Ramos' comments, I think more than any 15 other item I get calls on are local park grants maybe 16 that's because I'm from South Texas in a rural part of the 17 state. And like Commissioner Ramos I have a lot of 18 friends in that part of the world. And I tell them all 19 the same thing. You do a great job, Tim, and I just tell 20 them follow the guidelines of the scoring and keep on 21 keeping on. And I know it's tough, but for those of you 22 that -- that may not have it approved this time, stay with 23 it and there's just nothing more to it than following 24 those guidelines. And thank you, Tim, for doing that good 25 job. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 65 1 MR. HOGSETT: Thank you. 2 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Any further comments 3 or questions? If not, do I have a motion? 4 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: Move. 5 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Commissioner Angelo 6 has moved approval. Do I have a second? 7 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Second. 8 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Second from 9 Commissioner Ramos. All in favor. 10 ("Aye.") 11 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Opposed? Motion 12 carries. 13 "Funding for projects listed in Exhibit A in the amount of 14 $6,607,022 is approved, as described for individual 15 projects in Exhibit B." 16 AGENDA ITEM NO. 5: ACTION - SMALL COMMUNITY GRANT FUNDING 17 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: The next item, Action 18 Item No. 5, Small Community Grants. Mr. Hogsett again. 19 MR. HOGSETT: The Small Community Grant 20 Program is a new program, as you know. We did a pilot 21 test of it and received about 60 applications in just a 22 matter of a month or so. You've made this program 23 permanent recently. And once again, it was very 24 successful in -- in terms of the numbers of applications. 25 The program is designed for government -- local ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 66 1 governments of 20,000 population or less. It is a 2 50 percent matching grant program, grant ceiling of no 3 more than $50,000. And we hope that we've developed 4 what's a simple application process. It doesn't take a 5 lot of time and necessarily professional skill to put 6 together. We received 62 applications for our April 30th 7 deadline requesting $2.7 million in matching funds. We 8 have rank ordered and scored -- we've scored and rank 9 ordered all of the applications received and are 10 recommending approval for the first 22 of those 62 11 applications. 12 The staff recommendation therefore is that 13 funding for projects listed in Exhibit A in the amount of 14 $980,293 is approved as described for individual projects 15 in Exhibit B. I'll glad to answer any questions, if 16 you... 17 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Do we have any 18 questions of comments of Mr. Hogsett? We do have some 19 people signed up. Curtis Schrader and Wanda Herd. 20 MR. SCHRADER: Good morning, Madame 21 Chairman and Commissioners. I'm Curtis Schrader, the city 22 administrator for the City of Marfa, which is in West 23 Texas. And the gentleman that -- that presented the Texas 24 River said that the Pecos was in the outback. Well, Marfa 25 is west of the outback, west of the Pecos. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 67 1 I'm sorry that the staff did not recommend 2 approval for our project. The Marfa swimming pool is the 3 only public swimming pool within Presidio County and so 4 many of our -- of our kids will not be able to partake of 5 that -- what some would consider a simple pleasure. 6 A couple of years ago, the Texas Department of 7 Health came up with some new guidelines for public pools, 8 and that's the reason for our request is to meet those new 9 guidelines that the Department of Health has. I would 10 like to also comment on the -- the program itself. The 11 Small Community Grant Program is a new project, and I 12 would ask you to continue to increase the funding level 13 for this program. There were more than -- or almost 14 double the number of applications for this program than 15 any of the other programs and for -- percentage-wise, a 16 small additional amount of money, an additional 17 $2 million, all 64 of these applications would get some 18 money. Small communities are the heart and soul of Texas. 19 There are more small communities of less than 10,000 in 20 Texas than there are any other size community. 21 Fifty thousand dollars or $40,000 or $20,000 in 22 a -- in a community like Marfa with a population of 2,121 23 according to the census has a great, great impact, much 24 more so than that same 40 or $50,000 in a community of 25 even 10 or 20,000. We have a very limited tax base. We ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 68 1 have high unemployment and projects like this are really, 2 really important to us. And, again, I'm sorry that 3 there's not enough money to go around, but I would urge 4 you to apply more money to this program and continue 5 funding it. Thank you. 6 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Wanda Herd followed by 7 Dock Jackson. 8 MS. HERD: Madame Chairman and Commission, 9 good morning, and staff. I'm Wanda Herd, mayor of the 10 City of Wheeler, and I want to thank you for recommending 11 us for a small communities grant program. We have a city 12 park that is still the center of our town, which is not 13 heard of in a lot of places. We still gather every week 14 for community ice cream suppers and family reunions and 15 picnics. And what I have learned in the last few years 16 with grandmother of triplets, it is a very good place to 17 take your little young grandchildren so that they can 18 play. We just want to say thank you for recommending us 19 and for the wonderful job you all do. Thank you. 20 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Dock Jackson and 21 Sheila Childs. 22 MR. JACKSON: Good morning, Madam 23 Commissioner -- Madame Chairman, I mean, and Commissioners 24 and staff. I am Dock Jackson. I'm the Director of Parks 25 and Recreation for the City of Elgin. I have with me ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 69 1 today, I'm honored, in fact, to bring with me the mayor of 2 the City of Elgin, Mayor Eric Carlson and the mayor pro 3 tem Gladys Ward with us. And we are just thrilled at your 4 recommendation or the staff's recommendation for the small 5 parks and communities grant. We think it's a wonderful 6 program and we hope that you will continue to fund the 7 program. 8 The project that we brought forward is the 9 Thomas Memorial Park, which is a park that we have long 10 wanted to -- it's been a dream for many years to try to 11 renovate and do some work with. This funding, if it's 12 granted will allow us to bring that dream to its fruition. 13 Elgin has been known far and wide as the sausage capital 14 of Texas and now we want it to be known for its parks and 15 recreation. Thanks to your foresight and hopefully your 16 approval today, there's a new saying going around in Elgin 17 and that is that the parks and recreation, the benefits 18 are endless. We would just like to thank you for your 19 foresight and hopefully your continued support of the 20 small communities, because they are the life blood off our 21 state and without this funding we would not be able to do 22 some of the projects that we would like to do. And 23 hopefully, we will be able to move up to some of the 24 larger projects later on. We have a new department and we 25 are moving in the direction. And with your guidance and ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 70 1 the guidance of the staff, we would really appreciate your 2 support. And we thank you again. 3 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you and welcome, 4 his honor. 5 Do we have any questions from the Commission or 6 any comments? No comments, no questions. Do I have a 7 motion? 8 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: You do. 9 COMMISSIONER WATSON: Second. 10 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: All in favor? 11 ("Aye.") 12 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Opposed? Motion 13 carries. 14 "Funding for projects listed in Exhibit A in the amount of 15 $980,293 is approved, as described for individual projects 16 in Exhibit B." 17 AGENDA ITEM NO. 7: ACTION - NATIONAL RECREATIONAL TRAIL 18 GRANTS FUND AWARDS 19 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Next item is Item No. 20 7, Recreational Trails Grants, Tim Hogsett. 21 MR. HOGSETT: This is a pass-through 22 federal aid program. The Department receives funds 23 through gasoline tax on offroad vehicles. We received 83 24 applications, which is a record number of applications, 25 for this program, requesting approximately $6.6 million. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 71 1 Our State Trails Advisory Board has reviewed these 2 projects and together with staff are recommending funding 3 for 32 of the projects. And the recommendation we would 4 bring forward to you today is funding for 32 projects 5 listed in Exhibit A in the amount of $2,072,937 is 6 approved. I would be glad to answer any questions. 7 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: Any questions for 8 from the Commission? I'm not sure if we have anybody 9 registered. Yes. Jeanne Patterson. 10 MS. PATTERSON: Good morning. It's so nice 11 to come to a podium and say thank you to people for a 12 change instead of having a complaint. I'm with the Texas 13 Bicycle Coalition and one of the recommended grants this 14 year is for a Texas Trail Care Crew. We are so excited 15 about this project, because for 24 months we will be 16 traveling around the state teaching sustainable trail -- 17 natural trail construction, design and maintenance to 18 trial users. We will be meeting with equestrians, hikers, 19 even motorcycle people. So we are really thrilled about 20 this and really looking forward to the opportunity to work 21 with the Texas Parks and Wildlife as well as community 22 parks, county parks in this great state. But that's all I 23 have to say. Thank you very much. 24 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: Appreciate you being 25 here. Thank you. There's no other public comment. Do we ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 72 1 have any questions or comments from the Commission? If 2 not, do we have a motion? 3 COMMISSIONER WATSON: So moved. 4 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Second. 5 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: It's been moved and 6 seconded. All in favor say aye. 7 ("Aye.") 8 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: Motion carries. 9 Thank you, Mr. Hogsett. 10 "Funding for 32 projects recommended in Exhibit A in the 11 amount of $2,072,937 is approved." 12 AGENDA ITEM NO. 8: ACTION - TARGET RANGE PROGRAM 13 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: We have one more for 14 you, Item No. 8, Target Range Granted. 15 MR. HOGSETT: These are recommendations for 16 funding from the National Recreation Hunter Education and 17 Target Range Program. These are again pass-through 18 federal funds that are administered by the Department 19 passed through from the Wildlife Restoration Act. Those 20 are 75 percent matching grants. We are recommending 21 funding for two projects, for the total of $120,000. Two 22 projects at $60,000 each. And I would be glad to answer 23 any questions that you have. 24 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: We do not have any 25 members of the public registered to speak on this item. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 73 1 Are there any questions or comments from the Commission or 2 do we have a motion? 3 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: Motion. 4 COMMISSIONER RISING: Second. 5 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: Motion by 6 Commissioner Montgomery, second by Commissioner Rising. 7 Do we have any discussion? All in favor say aye. 8 ("Aye.") 9 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: All opposed? Motion 10 carries. Thank you Mr. Hogsett. 11 "The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission authorizes the 12 Executive Director to execute contracts funding the 13 projects at Exhibit B and C pending availability of 14 federal funds." 15 AGENDA ITEM NO. 9: ACTION - FY2003 OPERATING AND CAPITAL 16 BUDGET AND TEXAS PARKS AND WILDLIFE INVESTMENT POLICY, 17 BUDGET POLICY 18 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: Another action item 19 Fiscal '03 Operating and Capital Budget and Parks and 20 Wildlife Investment Policy and Budget Policy. It will be 21 presented by Suzy Whittenton. 22 MS. WHITTENTON: Thank you. We'll quickly 23 run through the recommended operating budget. The 24 operating budget consists of salaries, fringe benefits, 25 other operating expenses and the minor repair program and ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 74 1 state parks. Staff is recommending a $203.2 million 2 operating budget as well as $53.9 million capital budget. 3 Capital budget consists of vehicles, equipment, computers 4 and construction and repair. Construction, of course, is 5 the large item there due to the Proposition 8 bonds 6 available. 7 Grant budget is recommended at $29.5 million, 8 most of which is in the local parks. 9 Total operating budget -- total operating 10 capital and grant budget along with debt service for 11 revenue bonds is recommended at $292.2 million. The 12 budget also includes full-time equivalent employees of 13 3,148 which is about 3.7 percent higher than our 14 Legislatively mandated cap. The budget also includes an 15 allocation of overhead costs between funding sources as 16 outlined in the document and methodology. 17 Super Combo revenues are allocated to the stamp 18 funds at the same level as in the previous year. We're in 19 the second year of our data collection through surveys and 20 plan to lay out any necessary changes to the allocation 21 next August. 22 The budget policy this time includes a change 23 that will allow us to incur construction expenditures 24 related to Proposition 8 bonds prior to the issuance of 25 those bonds. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 75 1 And the investment policy which is statutorily 2 required must be reviewed by the governing body each year. 3 There are no changes recommended this year to that policy. 4 We are in the process of submitting our 5 Legislative appropriations request for the next biennium, 6 fiscal years '04 and '05. We are asking for additional 7 funding from the Legislature for that biennium. The 8 request includes $7.4 million per year for the 2002 9 unfunded pay raise as well as $4 million per year and 43 10 FTEs for state park operations. We're also asking for 11 general revenue funding for an additional game warden 12 cadet class and an exemption from the capital budget 13 limitations for land acquisitions where there's no cost to 14 the state. We're including a request for $350,000 per 15 year to replace the amounts cut last session for capital 16 budget -- capital project-related salaries and authority 17 to be reimbursed for law enforcement costs related to boat 18 sales and used tax collections derived from dealer fraud 19 investigations. 20 And finally, we're asking for clarification, 21 clean-up of technicalities on the floating cabins 22 accounts. And that concludes my presentation. I'll be 23 happy to take any questions. 24 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Do we have any 25 questions or comments from the Commission? We have -- we ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 76 1 have one person signed up to speak, Kirby Brown. Is that 2 correct? 3 MR. BROWN: I have nothing to say. Thank 4 you. 5 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. Are there 6 any comments or questions from the Commission? If not... 7 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: Move approval, 8 Madame Chairman. 9 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Do I have a second? 10 COMMISSIONER WATSON: Second. 11 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Second from 12 Commissioner Watson. All in favor? 13 ("Aye.") 14 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Opposed? Motion 15 carries. 16 "The Executive Director is authorized to expend funds to 17 operate the Parks and Wildlife Department in accordance 18 with the Proposed FY2003 Operating Budget (Exhibit A), the 19 Proposed FY2003 Capital Program (Exhibit B), and the 20 Proposed FY2003 Grant Budget (Exhibit C)." 21 AGENDA ITEM NO. 10: ACTION - LICENSE LEGIBILITY RULES 22 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Action Item No. 10, 23 License Legibility Rules. Suzy. 24 MS. WHITTENTON: Thank you. Madame 25 Chairman, Commissioners. I think we had -- before we get ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 77 1 into that some copies of the new license that we were 2 wanting to let you take a look at if you haven't seen it. 3 This is -- what the new license looks like. If you buy a 4 license off of the P.C. version of the WorldCom 5 application. If you buy it through the hypercom 6 terminals, it looks a little different, it doesn't have 7 the little pictures on it, but I wanted you to see what it 8 looks like. 9 And also, yesterday I reported that sales were 10 down about 21 percent from last year because of the 11 promotion, and as of today we're only down 19 percent, so 12 the gap is closing. We had a big day yesterday. We sold 13 over 33,000 licenses and we're expecting over 50,000 14 today, so we're getting ready for a big weekend. 15 Section 30 of the Sunset Bill, Senate Bill 305 16 requires Parks and Wildlife rules to specify standards for 17 licenses including the legibility. Proposals were laid 18 out at the May Commission meeting. The proposed changes 19 to Chapter 53 Subchapter K include that licenses must be 20 printed on durable paper, be waterproof, tear resistant 21 and that the print must be indelible. The print must be a 22 reasonable size given constraints of the overall size of 23 the license and in no case less than six-point font. The 24 print must be a color that contrasts with the background. 25 These provisions do not apply to licenses sold over the ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 78 1 Internet and printed directly by customers. 2 Also, the Executive Director may waive 3 provisions in case of unforeseeable events or emergencies. 4 These rules were posted on the Texas Register on July the 5 12th and no comments have been received to date. 6 I recommend -- staff recommends the Commission 7 adopt 31 TAC 53.100 concerning license format and 8 legibility with changes to text as published in the 9 July 12th issue of the Texas Register. 10 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Do we have any 11 comments or requests for Suzy? We have no one signed up 12 to comment no. Do I have a motion? 13 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: Motion for approval. 14 COMMISSIONER RISING: Second. 15 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: All in favor? 16 ("Aye.") 17 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Opposed? Motion 18 carries. 19 "The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission adopts new 31 TAC 20 53.100 concerning License Format and Legibility, with 21 changes to text as published in the July 12, 2002 issue of 22 the Texas Register (27 TexReg 6236)." 23 AGENDA ITEM NO. 11: ACTION - ALTERNATIVE LICENSE RULES 24 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: No. 11, Alternative 25 Licensing Rules, Jerry Cooke. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 79 1 DR. COOKE: Madame Chairman, members, my 2 name is Jerry Cooke. I'm Game Branch Chief for the 3 Wildlife Division presenting these proposed changes to the 4 statewide hunting and fishing proclamation related to 5 alternative license. A substantial fraction of the total 6 operating funds of this agency come from licensed sales. 7 While our automated point of sales system provides good 8 utility for selling licenses, monitoring revenues and 9 providing realtime access to licensed buyer information, 10 like all automated systems it is subject to catastrophic 11 failure. During the five years that we have issued 12 licenses through a POS system, we have not needed an 13 alternative to the automated system. However, there was 14 no provision in our rules should that need have arisen. 15 The proposal in essence will -- will be an optional rule 16 in the sense that it will be determined by the type of 17 license held by a hunter. A hunter who holds a license 18 from a point of sale system has no rule change at all 19 proposed in this -- in this proposal. 20 However, if one is holding the alternative paper 21 license, this rule change would remove the requirement for 22 tagging. It would broaden the use of the resource 23 documents so that it could be used in lieu of a tag and it 24 would expand the license log to include all species that 25 were tagged through the POS license. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 80 1 The recommended motion to the Commission is the 2 Texas Parks and Wildlife Department adopts 31 TAC 65.7 and 3 65.8 concerning alternative licenses and harvest log, 4 respectively, with changes to the proposed text located in 5 Exhibit A as published in the July 19, 2002, issue of the 6 Texas Register. If you have any questions, I would be 7 happy to try to answer them for you. 8 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Are there any 9 questions of Dr. Cooke? Do I have a motion. 10 COMMISSIONER WATSON: So moved. 11 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: Second. 12 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: All in favor? 13 ("Aye.") 14 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Opposed? Motion 15 carries. Thank you, Jerry. 16 DR. COOKE: Thank you, ma'am. 17 "The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission adopts 31 TAC 18 Sections 65.7 and 65.8, concerning alternative licensing 19 and harvest log, respective, with changes to the proposed 20 texas (located at Exhibit A) as published in the July 19, 21 2002, issue of the Texas Register (27 TexReg 6490)." 22 AGENDA ITEM NO. 12: ACTION - SCIENTIFIC BREEDER 23 REGULATIONS DISEASE TESTING AND MONITORING MEASURES 24 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: No. 12, Scientific 25 Breeder Regulations Disease Testing and Monitoring ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 81 1 Measures. Jerry Cooke, again. 2 DR. COOKE: Madame Chairman and members, my 3 name is Jerry Cooke, Game Branch Chief for the Wildlife 4 Division presenting you these proposed changes to the 5 Scientific Breeder Proclamation. Chronic waste and 6 disease has developed into a national issue of public 7 concern. The proposal before you was initially presented 8 during your January 2002 meeting. Action on this item was 9 postponed both at the April and the May Commission 10 meetings and was republished to allow the Texas Deer 11 Association more time to develop a voluntary program 12 adequate to address the state's concern for monitoring of 13 this disease. The goal for -- for a voluntary monitoring 14 program to detect a 2 percent prevalence of the disease in 15 Texas was 126 facilities. Since the last meeting, this 16 Department has -- our department have finalized our plans. 17 We're on the verge of completing our management plan for 18 the disease. But this plan includes testing all clinical 19 animals that are encountered in the wild. To date, we've 20 tested 11. All of them have been negative. We also plan 21 to test deer taken from our State Park and Wildlife 22 Management Area public hunts this fall which will number 23 between 500 and 1,000 animals. 24 As of yesterday morning at 8:10, and I haven't 25 bothered the lady since then, there was 170 applications ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 82 1 from scientific breeders to establish this voluntary 2 program. And certainly the Texas Wildlife Association and 3 Texas Deer Association, all of those who worked toward 4 this are to be complimented on this action. Because of 5 this, the proposal to define in a healthy condition within 6 a context of an obligatory testing and monitoring program 7 is not needed and we recommend that it not be adopted at 8 this time, nor the provisions that would establish certain 9 prohibitions for breeders who do not comply with there 10 definition. However -- and as long as the monitoring is 11 adequate in this state, we all believe that it should be a 12 voluntary program and -- and we all should work toward 13 continuing that in that context. 14 There are other provisions that are also 15 proposed in this same proclamation, but I do believe that 16 you should seriously consider adopting. One is the 17 November 1 farm report which was adopted by a previous 18 Commission, but for whatever reason we never got it 19 published with the Secretary of State. Therefore, it's 20 never really become a rule. And because -- I don't think 21 anybody sitting on this Commission actually voted on that 22 item, we thought we would bring it back to you for 23 consideration, rather than handle it as a housekeeping 24 measure. Also, we wish to clarify in the rules, that when 25 you temporary transfer an animal, the animal cannot leave ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 83 1 the state. That's not temporary as far as our 2 jurisdiction is concerned. Also to clarify that deer 3 released into the wild from a scientific breeder facility 4 would require written approval from the Department and 5 that approval can come in many forms. We didn't really 6 plan to complicate this measure very much. 7 Also, as we discussed yesterday, you adopted a 8 suspension on importation into Texas. We believe that at 9 this time that it's -- we should consider removing that 10 prohibition because the Texan Animal Health Commission has 11 completed and adopted their rules for entry requirements 12 into Texas, which has been heavily reviewed, heavily 13 complimented. I think it's one of the best in the state 14 and probably serve as the model for other states. Those 15 entry requirements are basically if an animal -- if a 16 facility that's going to be importing animals to Texas is 17 in a state where chronic waste and disease has never been 18 found and that state has a monitoring program and the 19 monitoring program is defined in their rule, then a 20 facility would have to be under that monitoring program 21 for at least three years before we would consider allowing 22 the deer to come into Texas. 23 If the state has no monitoring program, it has 24 no state-sponsored monitoring program, a facility may 25 bring their records had to the Animal Health Commission ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 84 1 for certification to show that they have, in fact, placed 2 on themselves a monitoring program that matches the 3 description in the rules, but they would have to have been 4 under that program for at least five years in order to 5 comply with their entry requirements. 6 And, finally, any state in which chronic wasting 7 and disease has ever been found would have to be part of a 8 state monitored program and have been monitoring for five 9 years successfully before they would be allowed to be 10 brought into the state. 11 So the staff's recommended motion is the Texas 12 Parks and Wildlife Commission adopts TAC 65.602, 65.608, 13 65.610, and 65.611 concerning Scientific Breeder Permits 14 with changes to the proposed text located in Exhibit A as 15 published in the July 19, 2002, issue of the Texas 16 Register. If you have any questions, I would be happy to 17 try to answer them for you. 18 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Does the Commission 19 have any questions or comments? I would like to mention 20 that Ken Waldrop from the Texas Animal Health Commission 21 is here and very generously has offered to answer any 22 questions that we might have. But do you have any 23 questions now of -- of Jerry Cooke? Commissioner Ramos? 24 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: I have a few. Jerry, 25 you mentioned the release of animals from a scientific ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 85 1 breeder facility into the wild? 2 DR. COOKE: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 3 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Can you be more 4 specific as to what exactly would happen if a breeder 5 wanted to release an animal? 6 DR. COOKE: Basically, this is done in the 7 context of our disease concerns in this state. Basically, 8 parts of this provision has been in the rules forever that 9 has actually not been exercised by us. The option of 10 making inspections beforehand. What we are proposing is 11 basically this: If there is an animal in a facility that 12 is overtly showing signs of disease, animals should not be 13 released from that facility until that disease condition 14 is clarified. Basically, we have no personal concerns if 15 the breeder chooses to use a licensed veterinarian to sign 16 a certificate of inspection certifying that no overt 17 disease is in this facility at the time release is being 18 considered. 19 Alternatively, one of our biologists or one of 20 our Game Wardens could look and say, "There's no animals 21 obviously ill here," sign the back of his own business 22 card with the date and time and say it's been inspected 23 for release and hand it to them for their records. In 24 other words, we're not talking about a huge new series of 25 permits and purchasing of permits or keeping big data ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 86 1 logs. We just want either a veterinarian or one of our 2 people to look at the facility and certify that there's no 3 animals that are overtly ill at the time of release. 4 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: So that at the point 5 that the animal were to be released into the wild you 6 would have a level of comfort as to the health of that 7 animal basically? 8 DR. COOKE: The health of the animal and 9 the fact that there's obviously not something else in that 10 facility that could have infected him at the time. 11 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Yeah. We had 12 substantial discussion yesterday, Jerry, regarding, you 13 know, the interstate regulations and the monitoring with 14 the Texan Animal Health Commission. A concern that I have 15 is in addition to that, and I think you've touched on it, 16 you're currently acquiring data that eventually will give 17 you a basis or a level of confidence that, in fact, we 18 don't have health issues with chronic waste disease within 19 the State of Texas? 20 DR. COOKE: Yes. 21 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Correct? 22 DR. COOKE: That's correct. 23 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: And I think -- what is 24 your target number of carcasses, as you might say, or 25 animals that you want to test would give you some comfort? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 87 1 DR. COOKE: We have several levels of 2 comfort. Obviously, we have 14 counties that are -- that 3 are -- have been identified as counties of high risk, 4 because lots of animals have been imported and released 5 into those counties and there's lots of deer that were 6 already there. Those identify those. And we have 7 sampling requirements for each of those counties that will 8 cover over the next several years, next two to four years 9 to get that covered. There are breeder facilities in all 10 but three of those counties. So we're going to have some 11 secondary monitoring from that facility. It's like a 12 canary in the mine sort of a thing. 13 Also, we're concerned specifically with region 14 by region and I'm talking ecoregion here, which -- 15 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Within the state? 16 DR. COOKE: Within the state. Basically we 17 have eight regulatory districts. We've kind of aimed our 18 sampling at those eight regulatory districts. We're 19 looking at between 125 and 200 deer per ecoregion 20 distributed through the region as an adequate sample to 21 cover that. 22 And additionally, we'll be taking animals from 23 our Wildlife Management Area and State Park Public Hunts 24 which will augment this to be a certain extent. But we 25 actually are using those as much to satisfy or to show the ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 88 1 breeders that we're also trying to examine our own 2 properties. That's the A part. But the B part is it 3 gives our guys an opportunity to put their hands on a lot 4 of animals in a short period of time and train our guys do 5 this right. Nothing would be worse than to have submitted 6 300 samples to the TVDML and find that they were all done 7 wrong. So we want to be sure our guys are up to speed. 8 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Is there a magical 9 percentage or an ideal percentage that you would like to 10 achieve before you would have the -- the satisfaction or 11 the comfort that, in fact, we're safe within the state, 12 and there's no obvious evidence of chronic waste disease? 13 DR. COOKE: That -- that sample size is our 14 goal. That will -- that -- according to Dan Baca who is 15 an epidemiologist and STAT person for the Animal Health 16 Commission has calculated that sample size aimed at being 17 able to detect a 2 percent prevalence of the disease in 18 Texas, which is a little tighter even than you normally 19 encounter. Most of the time across the United States when 20 they've encountered a disease, it's been about 5 percent 21 incidence. So this gives us a little bit tighter than 22 tight. And I can't say that when we get half of that 23 done, we'll be good. You know, that's our sample size. 24 And we will, as I said, be testing, clinical animal right 25 along. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 89 1 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: And from a time-wise, 2 in order for you to achieve the 2 percent level that 3 you're comfortable with, would you be able to give us any 4 idea as to how long, based on your current projections, 5 how long it will take to reach that level? 6 DR. COOKE: We will aim at two years. 7 Realistically it may be three, because as I said, we've 8 got this first year we're going to have to spin up and see 9 where -- you know, how much effort -- we're trying to 10 solve as many problems as we can. But there's two that we 11 don't want to tackle the first year. One is animals that 12 are in a locker plant or private property, just like a 13 cow. You can't just go in there and take a sample off a 14 cow without permission of the owner. And also private 15 property issues related to our confidentiality statutes. 16 Those are two complications that I think we don't need to 17 attack the first year, but we will certainly have them 18 solved by the second year. And if that's necessary -- 19 those are necessary to complete our sample size, then we 20 on could do it in two years. 21 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: It seems to me and 22 this is just my opinion, that in order to expedite the 23 gathering of the data that perhaps we ought to look at 24 other options or other procedures to where we can get to 25 the 2 percent and give us that level of comfort at a much ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 90 1 quicker time, perhaps than the time table that -- 2 DR. COOKE: I concur. I concur. 3 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Could you work on 4 something along that? 5 DR. COOKE: Absolutely. Absolutely. 6 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Madame Chair. 7 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Commissioner Fitzsimon 8 s? 9 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Jerry, thanks 10 for all your hard work on this. I know this has taken up 11 the better part the year it seems like. Two questions, 12 first, yesterday, we mentioned the Texas Veterinary 13 Diagnostic Lab at College Station. 14 DR. COOKE: Yes, sir. 15 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Do you have any 16 idea the capacity is for the number of carcasses they can 17 test? 18 DR. COOKE: We had an opportunity to talk 19 to the director of TVDML, they met with us and the Animal 20 Health Commission. He was -- of course, this was the 21 first year they've ever had it and he's making estimates 22 based on not really being overloaded yet. He estimated in 23 the neighborhood of 100 to 125 per day once the samples 24 were preserved and formalized and ready to go through the 25 process. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 91 1 When the samples were adequately preserved and 2 formalized, that's with formalin, not as in formal 3 presentation, once those samples were formalized, it would 4 take about 48 hours to do the cycle for the final 5 examination. So, you know, it depends on how high it gets 6 stacked. 7 This is also a USDA sponsored sampling site, 8 therefore USDA samples get first call if they're sent from 9 elsewhere in the United States. He said comfortable he 10 thought he could get from a raw sample into the lab 11 probably get it out in two weeks. 12 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: A two-week 13 response time? 14 DR. COOKE: Uh-huh. Even under pressure. 15 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: And the cost? 16 And the cost. 17 DR. COOKE: The cost -- all the costs that 18 we calculated was in terms of both TB and chronic wasting 19 and disease. And that -- that combination came to $55, as 20 I recall, for a single sample. I think the CWD test is 21 $25 if I'm not mistaken. I can get you the accurate 22 figures. I'm sorry I'm having to estimate here. That was 23 one of the notes I did not bring. 24 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: And in reviewing 25 the minutes from our last meeting, I noticed that we ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 92 1 discussed not only the number of breeders that the TDA and 2 the TWA would help to get signed, but also the population 3 of animals. 4 DR. COOKE: Uh-huh. 5 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: I represented 6 that and at one time we talked about that minimum of 127 7 was it representing roughly 5,000 animals? 8 DR. COOKE: Uh-huh. 9 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Could you tell me 10 where we are today? 11 DR. COOKE: The total animals held in 12 breeder facilities is between 19 and 20,000 animals. 13 Those that signed up for this program so far with the 14 Animal Health Commission is about half that number. It's 15 right at 10,000 animals in those that have signed up for 16 the voluntary program. We also looked at how they were 17 distributed across the state and the geographic 18 distribution of those who had volunteered very closely 19 matches the distribution of the composition of breeders in 20 the state. 21 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: So this may be 22 for Ken Waldrop or Dan Baca, but the Animal Health 23 Commission I would guess is more than satisfied for that 24 sample? 25 DR. COOKE: Yes. I won't speak for him, ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 93 1 but I think we can hear his head rattling. 2 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: I think that's 3 all I have. Thank you. 4 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: I would like -- I have 5 a question for Ken Waldrop please. 6 DR. WALDROP: Yes, ma'am. 7 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Ken, thanks again for 8 your help and for being here today. I would like you to 9 express to us your level of comfort with Parks and 10 Wildlife's lifting of the importation restrictions that we 11 implemented back in the spring. Could you address that 12 from the Texan Animal Health Commission point of view? 13 DR. WALDROP: Yes, ma'am, I would be glad 14 to. As Dr. Cooke has already mentioned, there were a 15 number of parties that were involved in -- in producing 16 these new entry requirements as implemented by the Texas 17 Animal Health Commission, including representatives from 18 Parks and Wildlife. We felt that it was important to go 19 ahead and maintain a level of commerce or to have door 20 open to individuals and operations that were interested in 21 that, but we certainly wanted to raise the bar. And now 22 in addition to burcilosis testing and tuberculosis 23 testing, we've added this CWD requirement. And again, 24 this was basically a unanimous agreement about -- within 25 all the groups that were involved, elk breeders, ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 94 1 scientific breeders, exotic operations, that these were 2 very workable, you know, business-type dealings that they 3 could live with. From a disease point of view, I actually 4 am very comfortable with this. There are states right now 5 that can meet that five year entry, including states that 6 have had CWD in the past. South Dakota would be the most 7 shiny example of that, and I know the program they've had 8 there. So I'm very confident, you know, with these entry 9 requirements that have been formulated. So, again, my own 10 personal level of confidence and that of the agency is 11 that this is a good thing. 12 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: So you're confident 13 that the protected afforded the state in deer herds of 14 this state based on the monitoring requirements that you 15 are now going to insist upon are equal to the total 16 suspension of importation? 17 DR. WALDROP: Well, I think, Madame 18 Chairman, there are actually two -- two different areas 19 here. There is -- one area is we want to prevent the 20 importation of this disease. If it's outside, we don't 21 want it brought in. That's where the entry requirements 22 come in. I cannot tell you that that's absolutely risk 23 free, but we do feel confident that this is certainly an 24 acceptable level of risk management. 25 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: There's no -- ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 95 1 DR. WALDROP: The other thing is -- the 2 other area would be if we have CWD within the state we 3 need to find it. We do feel like certainly the 4 participation of the scientific breeders within our 5 monitoring program has been very good and we can indeed 6 find it if it's here. 7 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Do we have they other 8 comments from the Commission? 9 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: I just have one. 10 Doctor, I don't know if you recall my questioning of 11 Jerry, but would you agree the more aggressive we can 12 become in assimilating the data to acquire the 2 percent, 13 the sooner and the better we'll know if in fact it's here 14 in the state? Otherwise, until we reach that level, 15 there's going to be some degree of uncertainty as to 16 whether it's here or not. 17 DR. WALDROP: Certainly, Commissioner 18 Ramos, I agree with that. 19 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Okay. 20 DR. WALDROP: The difficulty is in some 21 ways the logistics of it. 22 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: I guess that's our 23 problem. 24 DR. WALDROP: Well, we have some of that -- 25 own some of that problem, you know, my agency does as ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 96 1 well. 2 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Certainly, the Texas 3 Animal Health Commission would support any effort that we 4 would take in that regard to try and achieve that goal as 5 quickly as possible? 6 DR. WALDROP: Absolutely, sir. 7 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Thank you very much. 8 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 9 DR. WALDROP: Thank you. 10 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Any other questions? 11 We have some people signed up to comment on this. 12 Doctor -- okay. Kirby Brown and then Ellis Gilleland. 13 MR. BROWN: Madame Chairman, Commissioners, 14 I just want to comment on behalf of the Texas Wildlife 15 Association that we deeply appreciate the concern and the 16 hard work and involvement of the Commission as well as the 17 staff in this activity. Appreciate Ken Waldrop and the 18 Texas Animal Health Commission also in working through 19 this and in making significant progress toward determining 20 of CWD is in Texas and what we would do next if it is. 21 And I think that's important. 22 Also look forward to working with staff and 23 Commission on approaches to Triple T permitting that 24 allows reasonable transplant activities that continues to 25 protect deer herds from the disease. Thank you again for ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 97 1 your help on this and we support the recommendation. 2 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Karl Kinsel, you're up 3 after Mr. Gilleland. 4 MR. GILLELAND: I have three -- three 5 handouts. My name is Ellis Gilleland. I'm a private 6 citizen representing myself and Texas Animals which is an 7 animal rights organization on the Internet. I've given 8 you three handouts, the first of which is a copy of the 9 Texas Register from the 19th of July, 2002. This is a 10 publication that you're dealing with or the resolution 11 that you're dealing with to pass today. There are three 12 or four things I find trouble -- I have trouble with on 13 this, indicated in yellow, marked. 14 The first is you still -- you're in denial. You 15 have no testing program. You had no testing program at 16 the last meeting. You have no testing program now. 17 There's no testing in this document. There's no testing 18 program in writing. There is no testing program for 19 Wildlife Management Area, state park hunting, nothing. 20 It's just an old dream that Jerry has and some day it may 21 be reduced to writing and put into effect. There's no 22 testing program for the deer in the pens. If you believe 23 there is or you have it, will you please publish it and 24 put it out so the public can see it. You have no testing 25 program. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 98 1 The second thing you have here, prior written 2 authorization for release of the deer. They call over the 3 telephone and Jerry gives them okay over the telephone? 4 No. The deer should be inspected before they are released 5 physically by somebody. 6 The third thing is you're saying that monitoring 7 allows the health status of the captive deer to be 8 monitored or this rule does. The only thing you're 9 monitoring is the deer that exits the pen and goes out in 10 the wild. You're not monitoring the herd. The only 11 monitoring being down is being done by the Animal Health 12 people. The only thing you're monitoring are the fawns, 13 the number of fawns produced every year, they mail a 14 report to you, that's it. That's the only thing you're 15 monitoring is somebody in the office is monitoring a piece 16 of paper that comes in, 39 fawns this year. That's all 17 you're monitoring. You're in denial. You're doing all 18 this oral dreaming and some day it may come to pass. You 19 are republishing a definition of why you approved this 20 definition exactly verbatim last meeting. You're now 21 publishing it again. You published it on the 3rd of May. 22 We approved it. It was published the 1st of March. 23 You're now publishing again, 19th of July. Healthy 24 condition, exactly the same thing we had before. And the 25 last you have an ambiguous statement that says what is a ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 99 1 healthy condition of a deer? Okay. Here's your rule is 2 what's published. It says, "The deer can be released in 3 healthy condition into the wild in this state if the deer 4 are in -- not in a healthy condition." 5 That's an ambiguous statement. Which means in 6 legalese -- you lawyers, it means the deer can be released 7 whether it's in or not in a healthy condition. That's 8 what you published. You lawyers can verify whether I'm 9 lying or not. Thank you. 10 MR. KINSEL: Madame Chairman, 11 Commissioners, I'm Karl Kinsel, Executive Director of the 12 Texas Deer Association. Two issues and I'll be very brief 13 on them. One is a thank you and two is an invitation. To 14 save time I'll simply yet strongly say that I second all 15 the words and comments voiced mainly by Kirby Brown, 16 Derrick Gardner yesterday and add to that a little bit 17 that I also think the Texas Animal Health Commission and 18 Ken Waldrop. We've remained -- started out friends, 19 remained friends, we're still friends through all the 20 trials and errors and we've accomplished Mission 21 Impossible, I believe. In gratitude I would like to 22 invite and be honored if each and/or all of you could be 23 our guest at our annual membership meeting which is in San 24 Antonio on the 13th and 14th. Certainly you'll be 25 welcomed and honored free of charge, needless to say, as ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 100 1 our guests to see some great examples of some superb 2 animal husbandry that's being done by the producers and 3 exhibit of our suppliers. This is a great outdoor effort 4 that's being held under your direction. We're doing 5 great. There's no doom and gloom here as old -- sometimes 6 it seems like that's all you get to hear. I want to tell 7 you the deer industry is alive and doing well and doing 8 well to promote hunting in this great state. We're 9 expanding, we're improving the quality and the quantity of 10 the state-owned deer as well as the privately-owned deer 11 and said I want to thank you for that. 12 One special note and that is that having started 13 with this a year ago, being hit with it very early on in 14 January and looking at it in March and May, in March 15 specifically, when Chairman Idsal made a comment at the 16 Texas Cattle Raisers. I took that to heart and kind of 17 held her to her word and it proved to be extremely 18 fruitful. She said joint effort on behalf of regulatory 19 agencies that allows producers to do that what they knew 20 its best initially without having to respond to imposed 21 regulations. I felt strong about that and I think the 22 positive response of the producers especially in the 23 limited time proves that when regulatory agency provides 24 reasons and tools with which producers can operate, then 25 cooperation can exist between producers, associations, and ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 101 1 regulatory agencies. Thank you. 2 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. Thanks to 3 everybody involved in getting this done. I know it was a 4 tremendous amount of work. Another wonderful example of 5 industry groups and government and the like working 6 together to do a voluntary monitoring program which is 7 always preferred. Now let's make sure it works and we 8 keep a healthy deer herd. Thank you. 9 Do we have any other comments from the 10 Commission on this or questions? Do we have a motion? 11 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: So moved. 12 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Motion by Commissioner 13 Fitzsimons. Do I have a second? 14 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Second. 15 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Second by Commissioner 16 Ramos. All in favor? 17 ("Aye.") 18 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Opposed? Motion 19 carries. 20 "The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission adopts 31 TAC 21 Sections 65.601, 65.602, 65.608, 65.610, and 65.611, 22 concerning Scientific Breeder's Permits, with changes to 23 the proposed text as published in the July 19, 2002, issue 24 of the Texas Register (27 TexReg 6492)." 25 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 102 1 AGENDA ITEM NO. 13: ACTION - 2002-2003 MIGRATORY GAME 2 BIRD PROCLAMATION - LATE SEASON PROVISIONS 3 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Item No. 13, Migratory 4 Game Bird Proclamation - Late Season Provisions, Vernon 5 Bevill. 6 MR. BEVILL: Madame Chairman, members of 7 the Commission, my name is Vernon Bevill. I am the Game 8 Bird Program Director. We are here today to finalize the 9 regulatory cycle for migratory game birds for season of 10 2002, 2003. There are a couple of changes that I would 11 like to highlight for you very briefly. The federal Fish 12 and Wildlife Service has approved an extension of 13 frameworks from the Saturday nearest September the 24th to 14 the last Sunday in January for duck season if the -- if 15 the package is liberal or moderate. That extension goes 16 away if it's a restrictive package. 17 Canvasback breeding population this year did not 18 reach the threshold that we have established for a 19 nationwide season, so the Fish and Wildlife Service has 20 opted to close that. 21 Pintail breeding population was again below what 22 we would like to see and the Fish and Wildlife Service 23 with the support of the flyways agreed to a 39-day season 24 with a one bird bag for pintail. 25 The east goose zone of Texas we have divided ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 103 1 into northern and southern sections to accommodate the -- 2 the framework extension for ducks as well as a deal with 3 the light goose conservation order. 4 And the bag limit for Canada geese in the east 5 goose zone has been increased from one to two. 6 For duck, geese and mergansers -- I mean, for 7 ducks, mergansers and coots the High Plains Mallard 8 Management Unit will have a 98-day total regular season. 9 The other 9 days are taken up with the September teal 10 season. We're proposing a youth hunt October 19th and 11 20th. We are also proposing a little change there to take 12 advantage of early arrival of both teal and other species 13 by extending the -- the hunting opportunity immediately 14 after the special teal season closes for one week, 15 September the 23rd through the 29th when the regular first 16 segment of the duck season will begin. And that will 17 allow some additional opportunity that we've got a lot of 18 positive feedback on from the high plains hunters. 19 Then the regular long split of the duck season 20 would begin on October the 26th and extend to 21 January 22nd, which laps over into the middle of the week. 22 The north zone would have a 76-day season with 23 the youth hunt on the weekend of the 26th of October for 24 two days. Then we would have that short split that we've 25 traditionally had there November the 9th and 10th followed ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 104 1 by the long split, November the 16th, through January the 2 26th, taking advantage of the other end of the framework 3 extension for ducks. So for Texas, it's probably the only 4 state in the country that will have taken advantage of 5 both ends of this framework extension. I can't wait to 6 see what some of my friends to the north have to visit 7 with me about that. 8 The south zone we are proposing a season similar 9 to last year. The first split would run from November the 10 2nd to December the 1st. However, due to some survey work 11 we've done recently, the south zone hunters tell us very, 12 very, very vividly that they would like more of their 13 hunting days in December, so we are proposing instead of 14 having a 12-day split in early December to shorten that to 15 five days and reopen the second split on the 7th of 16 December and run it through January the 19th. And we're 17 not proposing to take advantage of the later framework in 18 the south zone because of our commitment to the snow goose 19 conservation effort to reduce that population to more 20 manageable levels. 21 For the bag limit on -- on ducks, it will be 22 similar to last year with similar restrictions with these 23 additions, again, the pintail will be a one bird bag but 24 will be reduced to a 39-day period during the season that 25 we would set basically the last 39 days of the north zone, ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 105 1 the last 39 days of the south zone and then the High 2 Plains Mallard Management Unit would be -- mirror the 3 south zone period of time for -- for pintail. 4 And again, we're opting to close the canvasback 5 season statewide. 6 For geese in the western goose zone, basically 7 it will be some similar to last year with calendar shift, 8 and so you're already familiar with that, I think. 9 For the eastern goose zone, for dark geese, 10 white-fronted geese, again a two bird bag this year, 11 October the 26th to January the 19th. Canada geese and 12 Brant we are increasing that bag to two birds October 26th 13 to January the 19th, but the aggregate bag can be 3, 2 of 14 either species, primarily Canada and we hardly ever take a 15 Brant in Texas. 16 Light geese in the eastern goose zone. That's 17 where we're splitting to the north and south segments. In 18 the north segment it will be October 26th to January 26th 19 and then in the south segment it would be October the 26th 20 to January the 19th. 21 In the south segment we then immediately go to 22 the extended light goose conservation order that would 23 begin on -- or on the 20th, Monday the 20th, and extend to 24 March the 30th. And in the north portion of that same 25 zone it would -- it would initiate after the duck season ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 106 1 closes on the 27th and run through March the 30th. High 2 Plains Mallard Management Unit would be similar to last 3 year beginning on February the 10th and running through 4 March the 30th with the extended shooting hours, no limit 5 and the use of electronic callers being available. 6 We have the opportunity for falconry -- an 7 extended falconry season in both the north and south duck 8 zones with those dates being in the north January 27th to 9 February 17th and in the south January 20th to February 10 the 10th. 11 The crane season, similar to last year, although 12 we have a potential of a 37-day crane season in Zone C, 13 because of our institution of the light goose conservation 14 order early, that restricts the number of days in that 15 crane season. We're proposing December the 21st to 16 January the 19th there, and then closure so we can go do 17 the light goose conservation rules. 18 Public comments have been pretty good this year. 19 We've had 77 total at this time. We've had support for 20 the High Plains Mallard Management Unit extension, the 21 framework. I would draw your attention to the south zone 22 where we've had the significant number of 32 commenting in 23 opposition to closing on the 19th which they had basically 24 said they wanted us to go to the end of the framework 25 opportunity there, which was the 26th. Again, our reason ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 107 1 for not -- not proposing that relates to our commitment to 2 the light goose conservation season and trying to reduce 3 that population down. We feel like that's the paramount 4 conservation issue that we must deal with, and so we're 5 not recommending that to the Commission today. 6 We've had a scattering of comments on other 7 parts of the proposal, some -- some pintail hunters, 8 enthusiasts would like to see the 39 days set at the 9 beginning of the season, but we think that -- that 10 probably the smarter approach is the end of the season, 11 which was similar to what we did last year when we had 12 that same situation with the -- the canvasback. And you 13 can look at the -- the scattering of comments there for 14 your review. 15 The adoption motion that we are recommending to 16 the Commission is that Texas Parks and Wildlife Department 17 adopts the amendments to 31 TAC 65.314, 65.317, .318, .320 18 and .321 concerning the Migratory Game Bird Proclamation 19 with changes to the proposed text (located in Exhibit A) 20 as published in the April 27, 2002 issue of the Texas 21 Register. There's a typo in that recommendation that I 22 just caught. 23 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: I have a question for 24 you. Could you go over -- I was away and I was listening 25 to this over the intercom. Could you go over the split -- ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 108 1 the mourning dove split season in the south zone real 2 quick? 3 MR. BEVILL: The mourning dove. 4 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: The mourning dove 5 south zone split season. 6 MR. BEVILL: You asked me for the dates I 7 don't have in front me of me but basically. 8 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Yeah. Let's go over 9 the basics. You said that the public comment was strong 10 that we lengthen the split season -- 11 MR. BEVILL: No, not mourning dove. For 12 the duck season. 13 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Oh, duck. 14 MR. BEVILL: Did I say mourning dove? 15 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: I thought I heard 16 mourning dove. And I thought I don't remember covering 17 this yesterday. 18 MR. BEVILL: We're done with the mourning 19 dove. I may have said mourning dove. 20 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: That's what I heard 21 and I thought I missed something. 22 MR. BEVILL: We have the opportunity to go 23 to January the 26th which is the last Sunday in January. 24 We are utilizing or proposing to utilize that opportunity 25 in the north zone. Our north zone hunters always say they ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 109 1 want the latest season possible. The south zone, we're -- 2 we're getting some comments that they also would want to 3 have -- 4 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: But they want 5 December 8th. 6 MR. BEVILL: -- that late split going to 7 the end of the framework. But we're opting not to 8 recommend that to you although it's your prerogative to 9 change that if you like because of our commitment that 10 we've consistently made to try to deal with reducing this 11 light goose population. 12 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Okay. No, it was just 13 a plan old misunderstanding. 14 MR. BEVILL: Okay. 15 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: We have -- do we have 16 any comments from the Commission? Dr. Rising? 17 COMMISSIONER RISING: Vernon, I was 18 reviewing this Exhibit A and I notice -- there's a -- in 19 the adoption for the types of ducks and the numbers, 20 there's a -- it does state one canvasback in the thing, 21 and I wanted to make sure we -- 22 MR. BEVILL: When we -- when we published 23 that exhibit back in April -- 24 COMMISSIONER RISING: Uh-huh. 25 MR. BEVILL: -- the Fish and Wildlife ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 110 1 Service had not met and reviewed all their numbers and 2 made their decisions. So basically we published what 3 we -- we brought forward what we had from last year and 4 then later in the summer they make their final rules and 5 that's when that changed. So -- 6 COMMISSIONER RISING: So this .318 is not 7 what we're adopting here -- 8 MR. BEVILL: Yeah. You're adopting the 9 proclamation with changes as proposed. 10 COMMISSIONER RISING: This exhibit is 11 not -- 12 MR. BEVILL: That exhibit is -- 13 COMMISSIONER RISING: Not exactly what -- 14 MR. BEVILL: -- goes back to the April -- 15 COMMISSIONER RISING: Got you. Okay. 16 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: We have one person 17 signed up for this one. Kirby Brown. 18 MR. BROWN: My name is Kirby Brown with 19 Texas Wildlife Association. Madame Chairman, 20 Commissioners, we support the staff proposal as it 21 is. Thank you. Wouldn't change it. 22 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you Kirby. Are 23 there any other more questions or comments or from the 24 Commission? If not, do I have a motion? 25 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: Move for approval. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 111 1 COMMISSIONER AVILA: Second. 2 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: I have a motion by 3 Commissioner Angelo, second by Commissioner Avila. All in 4 favor? 5 ("Aye.") 6 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Opposed? Motion 7 carries. 8 "The Texas parks and Wildlife Commission adopts amendments 9 to 31 TAC Sections 65.138, 65.320, and 65.321, concerning 10 the Migratory Game Bord Proclamation, with changes to the 11 proposed text (located at Exhibit A) as published in the 12 May 3, 2002, issue of the Texas Register (27 TexReg 13 3707)." 14 AGENDA ITEM NO. 14: ACTION - NONGAME REGULATIONS 15 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Action Item No. 14. 16 Nongame Commercial Permit Regulations, John 17 Herron. 18 MR. HERRON: Thank you, Madame Chairman and 19 Commission. My name is John Herron. I'm the Chief of the 20 Wildlife Diversity Branch in Wildlife Division and I'll be 21 briefing you today on two different regulatory items. The 22 first concerns a change in nongame regulations. Fairly 23 simple change. We are proposing to amend the regulation 24 to allow individuals to temporarily possess and move 25 threaten endangered species when those are threatened by ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 112 1 construction, right of way maintenance or similar 2 activities. We've had many requests for this kind of 3 authorization but do not currently have a permit that 4 covers the activity. The regulation would allow the 5 Department to authorize temporary possession and take by 6 letter rather than creating a new permit. It would also 7 allow us to determine when to issue that permit to an 8 individual based on their qualifications. 9 The second item which is, as we discussed 10 yesterday, more complex, concerns the revisions to our 11 nongame collection and sale regulations. These are 12 regulations that the Commission considered back it 1998 13 and became effective in '99. At that time we promised to 14 come back to the Commission after three years and tell you 15 how well things had worked and propose any changes that we 16 felt were necessary. 17 As I mentioned yesterday, too, we do have some 18 changes that I'll be highlighting from what was published 19 in the Texas Register during the summer based on public 20 comment and staff input. Overall, the permit system I 21 think has been a tremendous success. There was a lot of 22 trepidation when we put these in place several years ago, 23 but it seems to be humming along fairly well right now. 24 To date this table shows permits we've issued over the 25 past three years, roughly 400 collector permits each year ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 113 1 in between 120 and 174 dealer permits. Of course, the big 2 thing we were looking for with the regulation was data, 3 having some handle on what the level of commercial trade 4 and take of these species were. As this slide shows these 5 are the top three species in regards to take, black-tailed 6 prairie dogs, spiny softshell turtles and western 7 diamondback rattlesnakes. The first two takes for the 8 three years exceeded 50,000 animals and for the 9 rattlesnake we are just under 30,000 animals reported 10 taken and sold during the three-year period. Overall, we 11 had 19 species that were reported with trade exceeding 12 2,000 animals over the three-year period. And of course, 13 the data has been very helpful to us. And based on that 14 data, we've realized that we can now focus the regulations 15 more on those species that we're most interested in. 16 So the changes we're proposing, first 17 simplifying the requirements of the permit. Currently one 18 has to have this permit if one has ten or more of one 19 species, 25 in aggregate or for commercial sale. We're 20 going to simplify it and just have either sale or 21 possession of 25 or more of a listed species. Those 22 listed species we're proposing to reduce from 210 that are 23 currently in the regulation to 40. These are the 40 that 24 seem to be most common in trade and those that we feel we 25 need to monitor. We're simplify, the reporting ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 114 1 requirements requiring only dealers to submit an annual 2 permit. Collectors will no longer have to submit an 3 annual report -- I'm sorry, I meant report to us. We feel 4 we're getting the data we need from the dealers alone. 5 And then other changes we are proposing to prohibit 6 certain means and methods of take and we're clarifying 7 that anybody who collects for commercial export purposes 8 has to have a permit even if they're not selling the 9 animals within Texas. Some minor changes, we propose to 10 change the permit names, the public was having trouble 11 distinguishing between what a commercial and a dealer 12 permit were. We are proposing now just to refer to the 13 permits as a nongame permit and a dealer's nongame permit. 14 This is a change from what was published. The first 15 permit originally we were still calling a nongame 16 commercial permit. Based on a public comment we're just 17 now stating it will be a nongame permit. What we 18 published also clarifies that the difference between a 19 dealer and collector is a dealer is an individual who can 20 sell these animals to the public. The other permit, the 21 nongame permitee you can only sell to dealers, so 22 basically if someone wants to sell to the public, they'll 23 need to become a dealer. Also, there is a -- an exception 24 in the existing regulation if somebody was selling 25 processed products, for example, leather goods or other ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 115 1 things made from animals, they would not need a permit, 2 but we were missing people who were collecting animals and 3 immediately processing them. So we now require that 4 anybody who collects and then processes those animals 5 themselves must still have a permit and report to us. 6 Means and methods, we discussed this yesterday. 7 Currently what we proposed would prohibit the use of 8 vacuum-powered devices. Largely the consideration here is 9 the take of prairie dogs for the pet trade. We're 10 requiring that traps be tagged. One minor change from 11 what was published is what was published said only 12 unattended traps would have to be tagged. We are 13 proposing that all traps would now have to be tagged which 14 alleviates having to figure out if something is really 15 attended or not. Then we're proposing that turtle traps 16 must have an opening above the water so the that the 17 animals that are caught are not drowned. 18 Regarding vacuum-powered devices, as I explained 19 yesterday, the original intent that -- the reason we 20 proposed this was at the time we started this regulation 21 in draft about a year ago, the U.S. Department of 22 Agricultural was also prohibiting the use of vacuum 23 devices. We felt we should change our regulation for 24 consistency purposes. Since then, the USDA has revised 25 their policy. They are now allowing the use of vacuum ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 116 1 devices on a case-by-case basis and have authorized, I 2 think, two individuals to use these devices in Texas. We 3 have still maintained in it our proposal because one of 4 our other concerns is take of nontarget species since a 5 vacuum device is rather nonspecific and as we talked about 6 yesterday, it's very similar to the buy-catch concerns we 7 have for commercial fisheries. 8 I mentioned reporting already. As I said, some 9 changes to the reporting, as well. We're now requiring 10 dealers to record the permit number of anybody they buy 11 from. We're changing the reporting period. We have a 12 problem right now where a person has to renew their permit 13 before we've received their permit from the previous year. 14 Changing these dated will allow us to assure they've given 15 us the report before we authorizes renewal of their 16 permit. And then finally we're requiring that records be 17 maintained for two years. This is different than what was 18 proposed in the Texas Register. We said one year there, 19 but we realized with our changing and reporting we have an 20 overlap there. We really need them to retain two years of 21 records so that we can go back and check what happened 22 during that August to September time frame the year 23 before. 24 I mentioned the species effected. As I said, we 25 reduced the number of species down to 40, focusing more on ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 117 1 getting the data on commercial harvest and sale as those 2 species we're most concerned with. One thing I didn't 3 mention yesterday but I want to mention today is really 4 the success of this regulation is no small part due to the 5 cooperation we've had from permitees and the people out 6 there, their advice and their participation has been a big 7 help in making this a success. 8 And in one final note, we are removing bats from 9 the list of species and the reason we are is because they 10 are now protected by statute based of Legislative action 11 during the last Legislative session. 12 Just to quickly review the species that will 13 still on be on the list, these toads, salamander and box 14 turtles will remain on the list requiring a permit. In 15 addition, as I was mentioning yesterday one of our big 16 concerns is the take of the aquatic turtles for Asian food 17 market. They will remain on the list. The banded gecko 18 and several lizards remain on the list as well, and the 19 diamondback rattlesnake, the jackrabbit and the prairie 20 dog. Again species we've seen a lot of trade in and we 21 feel we need to continue to monitor. These six species we 22 had included on the list in what we published in the Texas 23 Register; based on public comment it was suggested we 24 could drop these. Let me have my slides catch up with me, 25 because they are just very abundant in the wild and in ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 118 1 some cases, the take of these is not really very 2 significant. There. We're caught up again. 3 In addition, due to public comment we're 4 proposing to add back several species we had thought about 5 deleting them from the regulation. Most of these for 6 aquatic turtles, as I explained yesterday. One of the 7 concerns brought up to us if we only list one or two 8 aquatic turtles, we may find a situation where trade 9 shifts to related species. So clearly it was a good 10 point, so we decided to add these species back onto the 11 regulation as well as the diamondback terrapin which is a 12 species of concern, the spade foot toad which is similar 13 to another species we already have on the list, and then 14 the other rattlesnakes, again concern being that trade may 15 shift from western diamondbacks to some of these other 16 species some of which are relatively rare. With that, I 17 would be happy to answer any questions the Commission may 18 have. 19 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: Questions before we 20 go to public comment? We have several people registered. 21 Mr. J.W. Vanderpool. 22 MR. HERRON: I don't think Mr. Vanderpool 23 heard you. 24 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: Is he here? 25 MR. HERRON: Yes. I saw him in back here. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 119 1 MR. VANDERPOOL: Am I the only one? 2 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: We have a couple 3 others. 4 MR. VANDERPOOL: I have a handout. Madame 5 Chairman and Commissioners, I'm J.W. Vanderpool from 6 southwest Kansas and I am the one that kind of originated 7 the vacuum machine method of prairie dog collection. 8 Because of the bad publicity of my competition, the USDA 9 shut down the collection of prairie dogs by water and by 10 vacuum two years ago. The water people got together and 11 threatened a lawsuit and so they turned them lose 12 individually inspected. Then the next year, I talked the 13 USDA into inspecting the vacuum machines. Dr. Elizabeth 14 Pannell (phonetic), the USDA inspector for Big Spring, 15 Texas, area came out and inspected me for two days. She 16 brought her supervisor, Dr. Hamile (phonetic) out of Fort 17 Worth. They video filmed everything from vacuuming them 18 and from the baby prairie dogs how we took care of them. 19 And took four of them down to Texas A&M for necropsies and 20 could find nothing wrong with them. So they could find 21 nothing wrong with the animals that I had collected at the 22 time they were there inspecting them. So they reversed 23 the policy on the back -- the back two pages of that 24 handout I gave you is the revised policy that is presently 25 in date. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 120 1 The vacuum method is, to my opinion, absolutely 2 the most humane way of catching prairie dogs. And the way 3 I target the young prairie dogs only instead of getting 4 other species of critters is looking with binoculars out 5 on the field and you have to see the baby pups on the 6 mound and if you see baby pups on the mouth, there's not 7 any owls or rabbits or anything else it that hole. That's 8 the den that they were born in and the mother prairie dog 9 keeps everything run off from that hole. If there's a 10 snake or something in there, the baby prairie dogs won't 11 go in there. And so it's a matter of the method and 12 experience you keep from getting other targeted species. 13 And it works so efficient and so quickly that I can catch 14 more prairie dogs. 15 The numbers you see in there, most of them are 16 from Texas Parks and Wildlife and it's just easier to 17 catch them with a vacuum, it's faster and more humane. 18 I'd like to urge you to keep the collecting methods the 19 same as they are right now. That's the reason I'm here. 20 I heard of my opposition, some of my competitors was going 21 to be here and that's the reason I'm here. Thank you. 22 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Kirby Brown. And 23 Ellis Gilleland. 24 MR. BROWN: Madame Chairman, my name is 25 Kirby Brown with Texas Wildlife Association. And we just ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 121 1 support the staff proposal as it stands. It's an 2 interesting comment by Mr. Vanderpool if there are 3 guidelines that could be incorporated, we would be 4 interested it that, because I believe there -- there are 5 occasions where the capture and transplant of prairie dog 6 populations is something we should be interested in aside 7 from the trade. 8 Also I want to echo what was said yesterday that 9 the staff has done a great job in implementing these 10 regulations and moving them forward and proving that the 11 permitting can take place that both protects the private 12 landowner and the collectors out there and gathers the 13 information in a reasonable way. Thank you. 14 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Ellis Gilleland. 15 MR. GILLELAND: I have a two handouts. My 16 name is Ellis Gilleland speaking for Texas Animals, an 17 animal rights organization on the Internet. I want to 18 refer you to the publication in the Texas Register, 19 because that's the legal presentation that we're dealing 20 with. Is the 23rd May, 2002, Texas Register which 21 publishes a list of the animals that have been removed. 22 Out of a total of 209 animals on the list, which are being 23 tracked and dealt with by Parks and Wildlife, you only 24 kept 28. So that's what has been published. There's 25 nothing about adding and subtracting all these things that ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 122 1 Mr. Herron's down up and down, up and down, up and down. 2 That's not in the Texas Register. The legal publication 3 was 209 and of the 209 you struck them all expect 28. 4 So now my request to you is if you want to do 5 this add, subtract, add, subtract, sideways, up and down, 6 diagonal, please republish it so the public can see what 7 is happening, because there's only 28 animals left on the 8 list. 9 The second thing is on your biodiversity, I feel 10 it's important to track them all. And the reason why is 11 that biodiversity is important. I've given you a real 12 short article. You can grasp -- even our corporations are 13 getting on the biodiversity. 14 And the last thing I would like to touch upon, 15 the handout I gave you is from a newspaper in Live Oak 16 County, The Progress dated the 1st of March, 2000, it 17 says, "Attention snake owners, ranchers, deer horns, began 18 3rd of March we will be making weekly stops throughout the 19 brush country in South Texas. We're buying live 20 rattlesnakes, dead rattlesnakes, rattles, exotic snakes, 21 live litters, box turtles, water turtles, centipedes, 22 vinegarones, skulls, bones, horns of ram, billy goat, wild 23 boar, et cetera, et cetera, and more," that they don't 24 list. And then it says in big bold capital letters, "If 25 it's in the woods and there is a legal market on it, we ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 123 1 buy it." 2 Ladies and gentlemen, will you please keep all 3 nine -- all 209 on the list. Add another 209, great, I 4 don't care how many you add. But please keep the 209 and 5 republish this whole can of worms so the public can know 6 what's on the list and what isn't on the list. The public 7 throughout Texas doesn't have access to all this oral 8 fantasies I hear. Thank you. 9 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Perry Hounshell? I 10 apologize if I butchered your last name. 11 MR. HOUNSHELL: Perry Hounshell. Madame 12 Chairman, staff, the USDA came and inspected my method of 13 collection, which is modified grain vacuum and found that 14 it was the most humane way that they could see of 15 collecting prairie dogs. And the only thing that I can 16 see wrong with it is people could -- people could see 17 wrong with it is my competitors saying bad things about 18 it, which aren't true. If you all have got any questions 19 about it, how it works or anything, I'd -- I'd like to 20 answer them. That's fine. 21 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Mr. Angelo, do you 22 have a question? 23 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: How does yours 24 differ from the other gentleman that spoke or does it? 25 MR. HOUNSHELL: Well, whenever I started ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 124 1 using my vacuum was the first year that he got his shut 2 down. And the way I had mine set up was different and so 3 we got them to come and look and he changed his to where 4 we can't catch adults, just the babies. 5 And as far as catching anything other than 6 prairie dogs, we don't, because like he said, you check 7 the hole, the prairie dogs are on the hole. And if they 8 go deep in the hole, you don't get them. They go down 9 about 3-foot, you'll get them. If they go on down any 10 deeper, you don't get them. I mean, you don't suck out 11 every prairie dog that you see. It's kind of like water. 12 Whenever you put water in a hole, you don't get every 13 prairie dog out of there. 14 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: What kind of 15 mortality do you have -- 16 MR. HOUNSHELL: I have zero mortality. 17 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: How much? 18 MR. HOUNSHELL: Zero. 19 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: How much -- 20 MR. HOUNSHELL: In my exports, I have in 21 seven years, I've had eight deaths and I've shipped all of 22 the world. I've had eight deaths in seven years. 23 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: If you didn't use 24 the vacuum, what other method would you catch them. 25 MR. HOUNSHELL: I wouldn't, because I go ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 125 1 behind people using water and I suck up dead prairie dogs. 2 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: When they use water, 3 if they don't get out, they drown. Is that right? 4 MR. HOUNSHELL: Right. But, you know, I 5 don't want to say anything about the way other people 6 collect them. One guy might put too much water in a hole 7 and then another guy might not. So, you know, you 8 can't -- you can't just shut down everybody because of 9 what one person does. That's like putting soap in and 10 stuff in, you know, people that love animals wouldn't do 11 that. 12 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: How many people do you 13 know that operate the vacuum machines? 14 MR. HOUNSHELL: Me and Mr. Vanderpool. 15 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: And can you address 16 the concerns about what we are calling buy-catch. 17 MR. HOUNSHELL: The burrowing owl? 18 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Well, the burrowing 19 owl or snakes, rabbits, things that go into the vacuum 20 that you're not looking for. 21 MR. HOUNSHELL: Well, the first time 22 Mr. Vanderpool was -- they came and inspected him; the man 23 came up and said, "I want you to get prairie dogs out of 24 this hole right here." And he said," Well, that's not the 25 way I do it." And he said, "Well, that's the way I want ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 126 1 you to do it so I can watch how you do it." Well, you 2 don't do it that way. You look through binoculars, you 3 see the pups at about 100 yards, you drive up to the hole, 4 you suck on it for a few seconds and either you get them 5 or you don't. But there wouldn't be any burrowing owls or 6 snakes or rabbits in that hole because that's where the 7 babies are living and the mama keeps everything run out of 8 there. And the burrowing owl doesn't stay in the holes 9 with babies. 10 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. Do you 11 have any questions? Commissioner Ramos. 12 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: I just have a couple. 13 How does the design of your machine differ from the other 14 one to where it can distinguish between a baby and an 15 adult. 16 MR. HOUNSHELL: Well, it's -- we use a 17 bigger hose, a six-inch hose. It's bigger, and the 18 suction is not that great. And whenever the pups come up 19 out of the hole, they don't come up fast. They float into 20 a holding. Those pictures that you had of my machine are 21 from four years ago. Last year I spent $70,000 redoing my 22 whole operation. So, you know, I've got a lot of money 23 invested. 24 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: So it's not the size 25 of the hose as much as the amount of suction that you're ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 127 1 applying? 2 MR. HOUNSHELL: Well, it's both. It's the 3 size of hole and amount of suction. The bigger the hole, 4 the less suction you get. 5 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: But what I'm saying is 6 if a larger -- if an adult for example, were to come up, 7 would it go through your system? 8 MR. HOUNSHELL: It would go up just like 9 the babies do, but you don't have the suction on the hole 10 in order to get the adults up. You're dealing with a 11 little bitty baby that doesn't weigh hardly anything. 12 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: No, I understand that. 13 The only distinction you have is the amount of suction -- 14 you're saying you don't apply enough suction to where the 15 large ones can't float out. 16 MR. HOUNSHELL: Exactly. 17 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Have these pups been 18 weaned? 19 MR. HOUNSHELL: Oh, yes, ma'am. 20 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Well, what about the 21 very small pups that -- do you pull them up by mistake 22 or -- 23 MR. HOUNSHELL: No. The very small ones 24 are still in the nest down in the hole. 25 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Deep down? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 128 1 MR. HOUNSHELL: Yeah. And the suction -- 2 the vacuum won't suck them up. You don't get pups that -- 3 unless their yea eight deep (indicating). They go any 4 deeper than that, you won't get them. 5 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: I think I would like 6 to have Mr. Herron answer some of these questions if you 7 don't mind? 8 MR. HOUNSHELL: Uh-huh. 9 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Do you have any other 10 questions of -- 11 COMMISSIONER RISING: How deep are the 12 nests where the small left babies are? 13 MR. HOUNSHELL: Well, they'll go on down 14 and there might be two or three different chambers, but 15 they go down and then turn and then go way back and then 16 down again, so. 17 COMMISSIONER RISING: When they get a 18 little older they go higher up closer to the surface. 19 MR. HOUNSHELL: Well, what they do is when 20 they wean them, they're not getting milk from that mama, 21 so their out eating. 22 COMMISSIONER RISING: So you can see them 23 out on the mound? 24 MR. HOUNSHELL: Yes. 25 COMMISSIONER RISING: That's what you're ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 129 1 talking about. You're spotting the babies on the mound 2 with the mother. 3 MR. HOUNSHELL: Yes. After they're weaned. 4 COMMISSIONER RISING: But the little bitty 5 ones are down in the nest. 6 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: At what age do they 7 leave the nest totally? 8 MR. HOUNSHELL: Well, after six weeks the 9 mama kicks them out. And then a bunch of them will all go 10 to one hole and sometimes there will be 15 or 16 in a hole 11 and then they spread out and that's how the town grows. 12 They kick them out and they push them all to the outside 13 and then they start having babies there and then they push 14 them out. And that's how it grows. And the big -- like 15 Big Springs we collect the babies from that every year. 16 And they have a big problem with it, digging under the 17 airports and that's all -- only place that I -- I collect 18 from is the airport there. And they have a big problem. 19 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: Pretty prolific. 20 MR. HOUNSHELL: If it wasn't for me and 21 Mr. Vanderpool, they would have to shut don't the Big 22 Spring Airport or go in and kill all the prairie dogs. 23 It's just that -- they're there by the tens of thousands. 24 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: I would like to hear 25 from Mr. Herron. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 130 1 MR. HOUNSHELL: Okay. 2 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 3 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: Thank you. 4 MR. HERRON: Thank you, Madame Chairman. 5 Yes. As we're learning, we continue to learn in this 6 whole process. And I do not doubt the fact that both 7 Mr. Hounshell and Mr. Vanderpool are telling -- they know 8 more about catching these animals probably than anybody 9 else in this room. Just to get some perspective, you 10 know, as I recollect, I think we have anywhere between 11 eight and ten individuals -- you all have a handout that 12 Mr. Vanderpool gave you from our data that are actually 13 involved in the collection of prairie dogs. Two of those 14 individuals use vacuums, the others are using other means. 15 And so as I was saying, this has been a learning 16 experience for us as well. I think what's been described 17 to you in regards to that life habits and the fact that 18 the vacuum is apparently only effective for those that are 19 really in the first part of the tunnel, there's usually a 20 couple small side chambers there, as well, is undoubtedly 21 correct. And honestly, you know, in regards to the 22 regulation, this is not a -- there is certainly not the 23 most important part of this regulation. I did not mention 24 to you before that we have had other public comment asking 25 us to address other means and methods which we chose not ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 131 1 to bring to the Commission at this time; such things as 2 the use of gasoline in rattlesnake roundups, the use of 3 not just water in prairie dogs but also the additives of 4 soap, ammonia and other things to get animals out of 5 there. I think it's an issue we're going to have to come 6 back and look at again in regards to means and methods of 7 take. Certainly, if it's the Commission's preference, we 8 can come back and revisit the vacuum issue at another time 9 as well. 10 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: I would move 11 approval of the recommendations made by Mr. Herron with 12 the exception that the vacuum method be continued to be 13 approved and monitored. 14 COMMISSIONER AVILA: I would second that. 15 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: All in favor? 16 ("Aye.") 17 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Opposed? Motion 18 carries. 19 MR. HERRON: Thank you very much. 20 "The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission adopts 31 TAC 21 Sections 65.173 and 325-65.331, concerning Nongame permits 22 and Special Provisions, with changes to the proposed text 23 as published in the May 3, 2002, issue of the Texas 24 Register (27 TexReg 3710)." 25 AGENDA ITEM NO. 15: ACTION - LAND AND WATER RESOURCE ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 132 1 CONSERVATION AND RECREATION PLAN RESOLUTION 2 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Action No. 15, Land 3 and Water Resources Conservation and Recreation Plan 4 Resolution, Emily Armitano and Jeff Francell. Is that 5 everyone? 6 MR. FRANCELL: Chairman Armstrong, 7 Commissioners, I promise this is the final presentation on 8 the land and water plan. We'll be able to move on after 9 today. We're here today to present the plan. You have 10 copies of it. There were some red line changes this week 11 that have you copies of. And the presentation we're going 12 to run through quickly, but there is a little bit of new 13 information here from the plan. The plan was a 14 requirement of our Sunset Bill. We were required to 15 develop a ten-year statewide strategic plan. The 16 Commission is required to adopt this plan by October 15 of 17 this year. It's important to know that this plan will 18 also serve as the Texas Outdoor Recreation Plan required 19 by the National Park Service for land and water 20 conservation funds. This is a strategic plan that 21 analyzes conservation and recreation needs, identifies 22 threatened land and water resources and establishes 23 priorities. The Department will use this plan in 24 decisions on acquisitions, divestiture, private landowner 25 programs, local park grants and other conservation ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 133 1 partnerships and programs. 2 We analyzed Texas from an ecoregion standpoint 3 looking at threats, looking at conserved lands, lands 4 under wildlife management plans, and biodiversity and 5 prioritized the South Texas Plains, the Gulf Coast and the 6 Black Land Prairies as our highest priority ecoregions. 7 This is a map that you probably haven't seen 8 before. It's a map that we can use to locate State Parks 9 or Wildlife Management Areas in the future. Shaded in the 10 light green up in the High Plains and the cross timbers 11 are on the two ecoregions that do not have adequate 12 wildlife management areas. This plan recommends that we 13 create wildlife management areas in those two ecoregions. 14 The areas around Dallas, Fort Worth, Houston, San Antonio 15 and the Lower Rio Grande Valley are highlighted. That 16 will be the acquisition or partnership approach to 17 developing these larger parks over the next ten years. 18 Other important data to be factored in will be 19 rivers. The plan recommends that state parks, wildlife 20 management areas wherever possible be located on major 21 waterways. We also named some priority state parks and 22 wildlife management areas for expansion in the plan. The 23 criteria involved was the location of the site for state 24 parks, natural and cultural recreational resource value, 25 the ability to expand the site, whether there's ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 134 1 undeveloped land around it or whether it's surrounded by 2 an urban area, the current size of the site, whether it is 3 relatively large already or whether the site had proven 4 through visitation to be a destination. We also have 5 prioritized some wildlife management areas for expansion. 6 The criteria we used was the natural and recreational 7 value, the ability to expand again, its current size and 8 whether or not acquiring more land would improve access. 9 These are the wildlife management areas listed in the 10 plan. We also dealt with a tough issue in this plan of 11 divestiture of state parks and wildlife management areas. 12 This was required by the Sunset Bill. We developed 13 criteria for state parks, whether the site functioned more 14 as a local park than a state park, whether it was small, 15 whether it was undeveloped, or whether it was adjacent to 16 another entity who might manage it better. We also listed 17 criteria for divestiture of wildlife management areas 18 slightly different, whether it was adjacent to another 19 organization who can manage this site, whether it was too 20 small for research and demonstration, whether it was 21 isolated or presented other management issues. It's very 22 important to know and to let all the public know that 23 parks and wildlife will operate all the open state parks 24 and wildlife management areas and historic sites listed in 25 this plan until an appropriate owner can be found. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 135 1 On our historic sites list, I presented that 2 list yesterday of low and high priorities. Just to let 3 you know the criteria that went into that evaluation, 4 whether it was important to cultural themes in Texas or 5 our national heritage. Probably the thing that was 6 weighted the most was interpretive value of the site, 7 whether somebody could go there and learn something about 8 history. The integrity of the site was a factor, whether 9 it was important to Texas history or an outstanding person 10 or event was there, whether it had significant 11 architecture, archeology or scientific value as well as 12 other factors. This all went into that ranking process. 13 We also did a gap analysis in the plan. The main 14 recommendation here is that we need to work with the 15 Historic Sites Advisory Committee, the Texas Historical 16 Commission and other experts, academics to further refine 17 this process and give us strategies for selecting new 18 historic sites in the future. 19 You've seen this slide before. I won't spend 20 much time on it, but it is important that rivers are a 21 focus in this plan. We talk about how we've -- Parks and 22 Wildlife has had an effort over the last 12 years to 23 determine the water needs of our bay and estuary systems. 24 The focus of this plan is really to take that to our 25 rivers, our 15 major river basins in Texas. And over the ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 136 1 next ten years determine their water flow needs for fish 2 and wildlife and recreation. We also looked at all our 3 major bay and estuary systems on the coast. All our major 4 bay and estuary systems are important but we did 5 prioritize them and rank them one through nine. The 6 Galveston Bay system was at the top. The key priorities 7 from this plan, the key goals that we set, were to provide 8 more large recreation areas within 90 minutes of our your 9 major metropolitan areas. That we need to expand our 10 efforts with landowners to include water quality and 11 quantity, to continue to conserve wildlife habitat and 12 also to increase our efforts to provide public recreation 13 on private land with those landowners what are willing to 14 enter into those kinds of agreements. We also talked 15 strongly in this plan about how we need to effective 16 communicate to state leaders, to citizens and to 17 regulatory agencies the value of ensuring that there's 18 adequate fresh water in Texas rivers and bays not only for 19 fish and wildlife but also for humans. And one final note 20 much the plan does talk about how the longer we wait to 21 act, the more of an impact all of these issues will have 22 on Texas' quality of life and also its economy. 23 Public comment was taken the plan, the draft has 24 to been on the with web site since June 20th. Eight 25 public meetings were held across the state, we've had ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 137 1 1,200 e-mails, 200 letters and a petition drive. The 2 draft that's on the Internet now was placed there Friday 3 and then you have some small changes in red lined with you 4 now. 5 So the staff recommends to the Texas Parks and 6 Wildlife Commission that they adopt the following motion 7 that the Parks and Wildlife Commission adopt by resolution 8 which is in an exhibit the land and water resources 9 conservation and recreation plan. 10 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you, Jeff. It 11 indeed has been a tremendous effort and a great 12 accomplishment. I'm very proud of the staff and you and 13 Emily and all the others involved in this great effort. 14 As I said yesterday, I'll say it again today, there will 15 be those who say that this plan does not go far enough and 16 those that will say that this plan goes too far in some 17 instances. I asked you all and the ad hoc committee to 18 come up with a plan of achievable goals. I think the plan 19 does that. The good intentions or nice, but achievement 20 is better. And I think that going forward we have a solid 21 plan that we can -- that can guide us for the next ten 22 years and I want to thank the entire department, because 23 everybody got involved in this, for this tremendous 24 effort. And I think we've got some comments and that some 25 people on the Commission would like to ask questions and ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 138 1 comment, as well. 2 Our first person is David Langford. And that 3 followed by Kirby Brown. 4 MR. LANGFORD: Madame Chairman, members of 5 the Commission, I'm David Langford, Texas Wildlife 6 Association. I would like to comment on the plan and make 7 sure it's on the record here at this particular hearing. 8 In the plan, it calls -- mainly because I want to 9 emphasize a couple things. In the plan, it calls for 10 getting together with the Private Lands Advisory Committee 11 to brainstorm ideas and to come up with new ideas and I 12 wanted to briefly talk about one of those ideas that we've 13 mentioned in comments and at the public hearing, but I 14 sure want to make sure that I enlist your help in this. 15 And two things happened in the last couple weeks that I 16 think exemplify the need for this. And it's a 17 clearinghouse for information about landowners who are 18 willing to provide access and those people who want 19 access, which is an awful lot. 20 A couple weeks ago, or every year, I participate 21 in the Prop 11 seminars where the people who are trying to 22 either get or keep the wildlife management tax valuation, 23 they put on seminars three Saturdays in a row at the 24 Cibolo Wilderness Area in Boerne. This time there were 18 25 landowners and you know, these people, everyone of them ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 139 1 had -- they owned property in northern Bexar County and 2 southern Kendall County. So there they are trying to hold 3 off asphalt from covering them up. And they are all 4 interested in wildlife. I think only two of them had 5 houses on the property. The rest of it was, you know, 6 places for reflection and to get away. And then yesterday 7 at this hearing there was a couple right here. The 8 gentleman had a very strong accent and then I think it was 9 his wife testified right after that and they talked about 10 needing and wanting to find places where they could go 11 read a book, just be quiet and still for a while. 12 Well, you know, there's 18 landowners that are 13 wanting to do that and then here's a lot of people that 14 also want to do that and they've got no way to find each 15 other. So I understand the devils and the details. How 16 do we work that out? There's got to be, especially now 17 with the digital age and, you know, it seems to be we can 18 work out a way where a lot of these nonconsumptive, 19 nonhunting recreational opportunities can be provided if 20 people can but find one another. So I want to commit that 21 we'll definitely help you all work with that. 22 Listen, I am to close by saying I was very 23 interested in the comments from Mr. Hall of the Fish and 24 Wildlife Service a minute ago. I think there's only two 25 or three people in the room that sat here and listened to ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 140 1 Dave Frederick when he came here and he said the exact 2 same things. And it didn't work out that way. Nobody 3 wants to see it work out, as Mr. Hall said, more than the 4 Texas Wildlife Association and more than me. But we've 5 heard it before, and I would ask everybody, once again the 6 devils and the details. Let's see what happens. And I 7 certainly hope it happens this time. Nobody would be 8 happier than me. Thank you. 9 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Ellis Gilleland, you 10 will be after Kirby Brown. 11 MR. BROWN: Madame Chairman, Commissioners, 12 my name is Kirby Brown with the Texas Wildlife 13 Association. We want to thank you for the opportunity to 14 provide input on the land and water conservation plan. It 15 looks like a very good plan. I think this is a great 16 step. It's a dynamic document. As we get into it if we 17 see problems it gives us an opportunity to change those 18 things. I think that's good too. I applaud you on this 19 approach and applaud the staff for the tremendous amount 20 of work they've done pulling that together. I think it's 21 going to be a good plan and we support the process that 22 was involved in it. Thanks so much. 23 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Brian Sybert you will 24 follow Mr. Gilleland. 25 MR. GILLELAND: My name is Ellis Gilleland ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 141 1 speaking for Texas Animals. I've given you four handouts. 2 The first one is Hunting Declines as Social Landscape 3 Shifts. And the reason why I've submitted this to you is 4 because the emphasis in your plan on the Internet is 5 hunting. It does not show up in these slides that were 6 presented today. 7 The hunting is declining because your sales 8 yesterday we saw because of the social landscape. Even 9 your Mr. Doodo (phonetic) says the trend has been taking 10 place for the last 20 years. It reminds me of the wet 11 noodle and water running upstream. You are not going to 12 win it. And then the other underlined, losing licenses 13 has a revenue impact is one of the reasons I would have 14 been very interested in exploring avenues of other 15 funding. Your emphasis on hunting, I give you a clipping 16 from The Progress newspaper again, entitled, "Texas Parks 17 and Wildlife Working to Build More Support for Hunting." 18 And this goes in the future of hunting in Texas and so 19 forth. 20 You've done a multiplicity of studies over the 21 last five years. I don't know how many millions of 22 dollars have been spent. The A&M study in '98, Texas 23 Outdoors, '98, Future Hunting, A&M 2000, Ms. Dinkins 24 Taking Care of Texas, Smidley Texas Tech, Texas Parks and 25 Wildlife 21st Century. You've probably got about 4 or ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 142 1 $5 million worth of surveys here. Now, none of them have 2 an emphasis on hunting. They're almost void. They're all 3 on parks near the urban areas. That's what it boils down 4 to. People don't want to hunt, folks. I've given you a 5 printout. This is from your own future of hunting. A&M, 6 Hunting is way down at the bottom of the list. Close to 7 home, fishing, walking, park visits, hiking, camping. Far 8 away from home fishing, camping, hiking and then hunting 9 down at the bottom with boating 6 percent and 5 percent. 10 You're forcing hunting. Look at your wall. Are there any 11 fish out there on the wall, ATVs on the wall, bird 12 watching on the wall, no. It's all big rack deer. Those 13 are your deer because you make your money off of them. 14 You're pushing deer on the public. The public doesn't 15 want them. 16 I've given you a deal -- alternate funding. 17 There's alternate funding. These people here this is a 18 Houston Chronicle Monday 17 June, 2002, City Wants 19 Visitors to Flock there Naturally. There are alternate 20 means of funding, Ms. Madame Chairman, if you open your 21 eyes and look for them and stop looking at the big racks. 22 There's dollars out there and there are people that want 23 to spend them and they want to go and get green. They'll 24 love you and they'll go with you, but you're not going to 25 push big racks on them because they're thinking people, ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 143 1 they're intelligent people. Thank you. 2 MR. SYBERT: Madame Chairman, members of 3 the Commission, my name is Brian Sybert. I'm representing 4 the Lone Star Chapter of the Sierra Club. Thank you for 5 the opportunity to speak. Before my comments I would like 6 to just take the opportunity to thank Jeff and Emily and 7 everybody who put a lot of work into the plan. A lot of 8 time went into it and definitely they deserve our thanks. 9 In terms of the plan itself we would have liked to have 10 seen -- more -- seen the recommendation include more 11 acquisition of park land in those recommendations. But 12 having said that, we feel that the plan makes many 13 important recommendations for meeting both conservation 14 and recreation needs in the state. So we do think there's 15 a lot of important things that the plan addresses. And 16 it's a very important starting point. At this point, once 17 the plan is adopted, we really need to make implementation 18 of the plan a top priority and securing the financial 19 resources to make the plan a reality, a top priority and 20 that's for the Commission, for the citizens of the state 21 and everybody. That's going to be extremely important as 22 we go obviously into these upcoming session and sessions 23 after that. And I would also want to point out that the 24 Commission and the Department on the emphasis that's been 25 placed on water and we need to continue to keep a large ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 144 1 focus on water especially going into the Legislative 2 sessions where there's going to be a lot of hard decisions 3 made on the water issue and that's going to be extremely 4 important. 5 Again, I would just like to say thank you. And 6 that concludes my comments. 7 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 8 MS. LEHMANN: Thank you for this 9 opportunity to speak. I'm just a private citizen and I do 10 agree very much with what Brian Sybert said about the 11 importance of water. As a matter of fact, the very report 12 says that the most common concern no matter what our level 13 of income, no matter where we live in Texas is the quality 14 and quantity of water. So I looked through this plan, got 15 some things off of the web -- your web site last night and 16 I have some suggestions. 17 First, I read on Page 61, "Strategies for 18 meeting the conservation and recreation needs on water as 19 follows: The Texas Parks and Wildlife Department has 20 responsibility for maintaining healthy bays, adequate fish 21 populations, productive commercial fisheries and excellent 22 recreational fisheries." 23 In this same report I read our bays are getting 24 saltier, our fish populations, some of them have dropped 25 drastically, some of them are in danger of extinction. I ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 145 1 read that the shrimp fishery has overfished. And as far 2 as excellent recreational fishing, when you need inflows I 3 read even the Colorado River can't make it to Gulf of 4 Mexico. Something is not right, and I don't think we're 5 addressing this. 6 I wish we could have some teeth. You're 7 responsible. You've listed the responsibilities and 8 you've listed your failures, but you haven't asked for 9 some kind of teeth so you can carry out your 10 responsibilities. I've heard very great accounts of how 11 well you are doing in so many fields, but in this one of 12 water this is vital. We have wrangled over land, over oil 13 and more and more we'll be wrangling over water and this 14 will rest with you, because what fish need, people need. 15 Please put this at the top of your priority. Please. 16 And I thought that not only demand teeth but as 17 the environmentalists have asked you, please buy land 18 connected with the sources of pure water. It's going to 19 be a fight more and more over the whole globe and in this 20 state. Please get the sources of water protected over our 21 aquifers, our springs, our head waters. Please do this. 22 Put it at the top of the list, because whatever else you 23 do in recreation, it's very important and you're doing a 24 fine job, if you don't protect our water, same as the 25 fish, it's going to be at your door. So I'm just asking ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 146 1 you as a private citizen please to put this condition of 2 water, it's quality and quantity at the very top of your 3 program. Thank you very much. 4 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. Do we have 5 any comments or questions from the Commission regarding 6 the land and water conservation plan? 7 COMMISSIONER AVILA: I do. 8 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Commission Avila. 9 COMMISSIONER AVILA: I just want to say 10 that -- commend both Jeff and Emily an outstanding job and 11 they certainly represent the next generation of our 12 department for young people and did a tremendous job as we 13 all reminded them as we get to talk to them. And for the 14 public, we look to divest ourselves of properties that 15 we've had in the inventory for a long, long time that over 16 time have become nothing more than small parks in some of 17 our rural cities or lessor historical sites that take 18 money from the Department to operate to maintain and to 19 have staff on -- on location and -- and as we give these 20 things to the local governments, that helps us do -- it 21 will help us do in the future the mission that they've 22 outlined in their program. 23 Small acreage, undeveloped land holdings, we 24 receive because we have purchased over years, they've been 25 bequeathed to us in Wills, they come to us as gifts or we ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 147 1 just simply horse trade with other agencies or entities in 2 the state that do not fit what this plan now describes. I 3 just ask that we do the study to see what the best usage 4 is as we look to administer the disposition and -- and 5 that's all I have, Madame Chairman. 6 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you, 7 Commissioner Avila. Do we have any questions or comments? 8 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: I do. 9 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Commissioner 10 Fitzsimons. 11 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: I want to join 12 the Chairman and the other members of the Commission in 13 commending Jeff and Emily on their work. There is a very 14 tough, big job. As Bob Cook said yesterday, when it 15 started it looked really insurmountable, impossible. You 16 pulled it off, did a great job. We have information now 17 we've simply never had before to make some decisions that 18 will be tough, but I would like to respond to the comments 19 regarding, I think, primarily water. 20 I represent the Commission on the Texas Water 21 Advisory Council which the last session of the Legislature 22 created to identify water issues during the interim and to 23 make recommendations to the next Legislature and to the 24 leadership. 25 I don't think there's any coincidence that two ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 148 1 of the three stated priorities in the conclusion of our 2 land and water conservation plan deal directly and 3 precisely with water. That's at Page 71. The only real 4 difference of opinion that I think I have, and I can't 5 speak for all of the Commission, but it's certainly my 6 philosophy, is that to protect something does not mean 7 that it is owned by the public. We learn today from 8 Mr. Hall, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service what many of us 9 already knew, that private stewardship is why we have so 10 many of our natural resources in the good shape they're 11 in, and that's where some of the final remnants that 12 Mr. Hall talked about are. And there is -- it is 13 hydrologically, practically impossible for the public 14 like -- for the Parks and Wildlife Department surely, to 15 buy every acre of recharge, every acre of watershed that's 16 necessary to protect our water. It has to be done through 17 partnerships with the private landowners that own those 18 watersheds. The watershed; if you will look at the 19 millions of acres of watershed in our various streams, 20 it's just -- it's huge. And that's where we're directing 21 a lot of our interests in this plan. And the plan very 22 specifically sets out goals. For instance, not to belabor 23 by pet issue of watershed management, but the wildlife 24 management plans if they're going to be doubled in the 25 next ten years to include watershed management, that's ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 149 1 clearly a specific monitorable goal. So I want to commend 2 the team, the ad hoc committee. I was not on the ad hoc 3 committee. But I can tell you every Commissioner had an 4 opportunity to participate and I certainly took mine. So 5 don't think there's any doubt that water is at the top of 6 the priority list. Matter of fact, it is mentioned as two 7 of the three priorities on Page 71. Thank you. 8 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: For the record, I 9 would like to thank the ad hoc committee. They -- the 10 committee was made up of myself, Commissioner Henry, 11 Commissioner Montgomery, Commissioner Ramos, Dealey 12 Herndon, Barry Miller and Chairman Emeritus Bass. Did I 13 get everyone? They did a tremendous job. We met 14 regularly and wrestled with all these issues and we're 15 proud of the work that's been accomplished here. Now 16 let's go out and implement this plan and see what the 17 results are. We're very, very pleased. Are there any 18 other questions regarding this? If not, do I have a 19 motion? 20 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Move for approval. 21 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Second? 22 COMMISSIONER AVILA: Second. 23 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: I have a motion by 24 Commissioner Ramos, second by Commissioner Avila. All in 25 favor? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 150 1 ("Aye.") 2 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Opposed? Motion 3 carries. 4 "The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission adopts by 5 resolution (Exhibit A) the Land and Water Resources 6 Conservation and Recreation Plan." 7 AGENDA ITEM NO. 16: ACTION - NOMINATION FOR OIL AND GAS 8 LEASE - HARRIS COUNTY 9 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: No. 16, Nomination of 10 Oil and Gas Lease Harris County, Ronnie Ray. 11 MR. RAY: Madame Chairman and 12 Commissioners, my name is Ronnie Ray. I'm with the Land 13 Conservation Program. This item is the recommend -- 14 consideration of the nomination for oil and gas lease at 15 Sheldon Lake State Park in Harris County. The nominated 16 acres is 1,303 acres. Minimum bid would be $150 per acre, 17 the royalties would be 25 percent with a $10 per acre 18 delayed annual rental. The restrictions would be 19 offshore -- I mean, I'm sorry, off site operations only. 20 The motion recommended is "The Executive Director is 21 authorized to nominate for oil and gas lease to the board 22 for lease for Parks and Wildlife lands, four tracts of 23 property consisting of 1,303.31 mineral acres out of the 24 Sheldon Lake State Park at $150 per acre with a 25 percent 25 royalty, $10 per acre rental, and a three-year term, ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 151 1 incorporating the restrictions set out in Exhibit A. The 2 income from the bonus bid and delayed rentals will be 3 dedicated to Sheldon Lake State Park. This action will 4 not be considered a precedent." 5 Any questions? 6 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: We have -- do we have 7 any questions or comments from the Commission? Because we 8 have one person signed up on this issue, Mr. Gilleland. 9 MR. GILLELAND: There's one handout. My 10 name is Ellis Gilleland speaking for Texas Animals. If 11 water is so important, why do you keep drilling oil wells 12 in the middle of them -- middle of it. I beseeched you 13 last meeting to please not drill oil in Sea Rim State 14 Park, marshlands, wetlands, practically on my knees, 15 begging you. Oh, water is so important. Hollow words. 16 Hollow words. Your actions do not match your words. 17 You're now going to drill in another wetlands area, 18 Sheldon Lake. It's not alligators this time. It's 19 people. It's young people, little guys we're talking 20 about, because it is an environmental education center. 21 Those of you from Houston know it to be a popular place 22 for school kids. Teachers take bus loads of kids out 23 there. I've given you an article on it. It's published 24 in the Amarillo Globe News about this fantastic 25 educational facility next to Houston 16 miles from ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 152 1 downtown Houston. It's an outdoors classroom, a teaching 2 vehicle for all the kids in Houston. Texas voters 3 approved -- on the second page, "Texas voters approved the 4 $2.5 million bond issue for Sheldon Lake to begin the 5 first phase of multiphase development plan that would 6 include construction and offloading plaza for school, 7 scout groups, new interests, new park complex, classrooms, 8 additional nature trails, et cetera, et cetera." 9 That's where you want to drill your next oil 10 well. It seems like ever since we got a petroleum 11 engineer on the Commission, we seem to be having a 12 plethora of oil drilling projects in State Parks. Oh, 13 it's okay. We're going to do directional drilling. Well, 14 it isn't okay, because accidents happen, pipelines cross 15 wetlands, dry lands, everything else. And once those 16 lands are soiled and sullied we ought to ship a bottle of 17 water to Mr. Fitzsimons and let him drink his oily water. 18 Thank you. 19 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Are there any comments 20 or questions from the Commission? We have a motion by 21 Commissioner Angelo and a second by Commissioner Henry. 22 All in favor? 23 ("Aye.") 24 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Opposed. Motion 25 carries. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 153 1 "The Executive Director is authorized to nominate for oil 2 and gast lease to the Board for Lease for Parks and 3 Wildlife Lands, four tracts of property consistent of 4 1303.31 mineral acres out of Sheldon Lake State Park, at 5 $150.00 per acre with a 25 percent royalty, $10.00 per 6 acre rental, and a 3-year term, incorporating the 7 restrictions set out in Exhibit A. The income from the 8 bonus bid and delay rental will be dedicated to Sheldon 9 Lake Stare Park. This action will not be considered a 10 precedent." 11 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Let me mention for the 12 general public, this particular lease does not give the 13 operator the right to access the surface for drilling 14 purposes, so it's clearly a -- it has an express 15 restriction and we've been very careful to preserve the 16 surface in all these state parks and sites for oil and gas 17 purposes. 18 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you, 19 Commissioner Ramos. 20 AGENDA ITEM NO. 17: ACTION - LAND SALE - TARRANT COUNTY, 21 HARRIS COUNTY, AUSTIN COUNTY 22 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Item No. 17, land 23 sale, Jack Bauer. 24 MR. BAUER: Good afternoon, Madame Chairman 25 and Commissioners. My name is Jack Bauer, Director of ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 154 1 Land Conservation. As follow-up from yesterday's 2 Executive Session, we have land sale proposals that was 3 heard in the Conservation Committee Executive Session. 4 And I have them summarized for your consideration today. 5 They will include the sale or proposed sale of 400 acres 6 in Tarrant County of Eagle Mountain Lake State Park. 7 Revenue from this presumably would go for the -- for the 8 purchase of other lands that could be converted to 9 available park lands for the public. 10 Also under consideration is the sale of 11 facilities on four lots in Seabrook, the Seabrook Marine 12 Lab. It's excess property now. Staff that use these 13 facilities is now at the Dickinson site. 14 And we have the lands associated with a golf 15 course at Stephen F. Austin proposed for sale to the 16 Stephen F. Austin Golf Association. 17 And the proposal that we are recommending would 18 read, "The Executive Director is authorized to take all 19 necessary steps to sell, at or above fair market value the 20 400-acre Eagle Mountain Lake State Park in Tarrant County, 21 property associated with the Seabrook Marine Lab to the 22 City of Seabrook in Harris County and approximately 95 23 acres associated with the golf course at Stephen F. Austin 24 State Park in Austin County to the Stephen F. Austin Golf 25 Association. In the case of Eagle Mountain Lake State ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 155 1 Park, preference will be given to accommodate sale of the 2 property to a local governmental entity." 3 I would be happy to answer any questions. 4 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Do we have any 5 comments from the Commission? 6 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: Madame Chairman, I 7 might ask, we mentioned yesterday that we had 8 correspondence from the comptroller's office concerning 9 the golf course at the Austin park. And I'm sure there 10 was some misunderstanding there and I know that that's 11 going to be clarified with her office if this action is 12 taken today, but I wanted to make sure there that was a 13 matter of record that we're going to take care of that. 14 MR. BAUER: Yes, sir. 15 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Do we have any other 16 questions. 17 COMMISSIONER HENRY: Just one. We also 18 indicated that we may want to ask the general counsel to 19 take a look at this overall issue with regard to accepted 20 bids and whether or not we are required in all instances 21 to accept the high bid or higher price. 22 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Commissioner Avila. 23 COMMISSIONER AVILA: With regards to the 24 Eagle Mountain Lake and Jack you can answer this, do we 25 need to add to that property to a local government entity ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 156 1 or a public privatization entity that would use it as a 2 park? 3 MR. BAUER: I think that certainly takes 4 the sentiment of staff and obviously of the Commission. 5 So if you wanted the motion expanded further, I would -- 6 you know, whatever recommendation you would have. 7 COMMISSIONER AVILA: I think we may very 8 well see some of that together. It might be 9 public/private. 10 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Are you saying that we 11 should add to the language something about public, private 12 or some combination thereof type thing? 13 COMMISSIONER AVILA: Yes, ma'am. 14 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Can we do that? 15 MR. BAUER: Yes, ma'am. 16 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: I agree. 17 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Did I -- Commissioner 18 Fitzsimons did you want to make a comment? No. We have 19 two people signed up to speak on this one. Ellis 20 Gilleland, Wesley Stripling. 21 MR. GILLELAND: Who's going first? 22 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: You go first, 23 Mr. Gilleland. 24 MR. GILLELAND: I don't have a handout. 25 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Old habits. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 157 1 MR. GILLELAND: Ellis Gilleland speaking 2 here from Texas Animals. I am very much opposed to the 3 400 acres of Tarrant County being sold off to the highest 4 bidder. That's a beautiful spot on the lake, and why are 5 you selling it, oh, it's 400 and not 4,000. How big is 6 Central Park? Madame Chairman probably knows. I venture 7 to guess off the top of my head, it's probably 400 acres. 8 Okay. Let's get rid of it. It's not 4,000. Do you see 9 the absurdity of that? Do you see the absurdity of your 10 thinking? 400 acres in Tarrant County is gold, because in 11 your lifetime, not in mine, because in your lifetime 12 Tarrant County will be all concrete, Dallas county and 13 Tarrant County and you'll benefit from it, but you'll die 14 with a load on your heart if you get rid of that 15 400 acres. Save that for the people on the lake. The let 16 400 acres go around that lake. That's -- let's make a 17 Central Park in Tarrant County. All your studies -- all 18 your studies say metropolitan areas and parks. Now you 19 want to sell this one off. No justification given, no 20 reason. Oh, let's hit sale. We don't need a reason. You 21 need a reason with me. 22 Item C, sale of 95 acres of golf course. Do not 23 sell the golf course. Make a contract like you did at 24 Bastrop. Bastrop State Park contract is in this 25 gentleman, Cook's office, go look at it. You can grab ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 158 1 that contract, ring them, twist them, move them, eject 2 them, shake them down, anything you want to do, kick them 3 out on the contract, but if you sell that -- if you sell 4 that golf court in the middle -- in the middle of the 5 Stephen F. Austin State Park, you've had it forever and 6 you're probably throwing the mineral rights to boot, 7 knowing you folks. Do not sell the golf course. Make a 8 contract like you did at Bastrop. Get some money out of 9 it. You want money. You're after money. Make a high 10 buck contract. That ought to appeal to you. Do not sell 11 the land. That will -- the ladies that just testified, 12 she'll love that. The old folks are smart enough to see 13 that, see the concrete coming. You young folks are not. 14 Hold onto the land. Thank you. 15 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: We have a Lon Burnam 16 signed up to speak. And Jon Robinson. 17 MR. BREEDING: Yeah. Actually it's Les 18 Breeding for Lon Burnam, sorry. 19 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Okay. Go ahead. 20 MR. BREEDING: My name is Les Breeding. 21 I'm the Legislative Director for State Representative Lon 22 Burnam and I have a letter from him that I would like to 23 read and then just a couple of quick comments. And this 24 is from the Representative, "I would like to join my 25 colleague, Representative Charlie Geren in expressing ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 159 1 concerns regarding the proposed sale of the Eagle Mountain 2 Lake State Park by the State Parks and Wildlife. The park 3 has the potential of providing recreational opportunities 4 for my constituents in District 90 -- Representative 5 Burnam represents a district within the confines of the 6 City of Fort Worth -- because it's location is so near the 7 City of Fort Worth. Other options at a greater distance 8 from the city, such as 90 miles, for instance, would not 9 be nearly as useful for them. Additionally the value of 10 preserving this park cannot be underestimated. I 11 appreciate the work of the Texas Parks and Wildlife 12 Conservation Committee in responding to their charge to 13 maximize efficient use of public land. Although the Eagle 14 Mountain Lake State Park would likely be a valuable piece 15 of property on the market, it's even more valuable to the 16 citizens of Texas from a recreational and conservation 17 standpoint. In light of these thoughts, I urge the 18 Commission to develop the Eagle Mountain Lake State Park 19 as part of the TPWD system or transfer it to another 20 governmental entity for local management as recommended by 21 your Land and Water Resources Conservation Plan. And 22 thanks for your time and assistance, and we look forward 23 to working with you." 24 And I think that we're generally going in the 25 right direction. I think the many thing that causes us ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 160 1 concern is just a straight sale to a private entity. That 2 situation I think would really be difficult for us to -- 3 to contemplate. If you are able to find a local entity 4 that is able -- that you're able to transfer to, you know, 5 those options make sense. I think that we have a little 6 bit of concern in being careful that that time line is not 7 too expedited, though. You know, if we are thinking that 8 this is going to turn over fairly quickly and the private 9 market would really love, I'm sure, for that land to turn 10 over quickly. It's valuable property. And it -- if that 11 forces you all to move too quickly, it will be quicker 12 than what the local entities can move. They need to think 13 about making the decision. It's a commitment on their 14 part. They need to raise monies. All of those things are 15 going to take time as we all know. And the private sector 16 can move a lot more quickly than what they can. So I hope 17 that you all are planning on, you know, this being a good 18 long-term decision that's going to be the best for the 19 state and particularly for the folks there in Tarrant 20 County. If you all could keep us informed, our office, 21 and I'm sure that Representative Geren's office would like 22 that too, of any progress that's happening on the 23 particular site, that would really be helpful. And if we 24 can do anything for you, we would want to do that. 25 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 161 1 MR. BREEDING: Sure. 2 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Jon Ed Robbins. 3 MR. ROBBINS: Madame Chair, Commissioners. 4 I'm Jon Ed Robbins. I'm Precinct Administrator for 5 Tarrant County Precinct 4 Commissioner, J.D. Johnson. I'm 6 here this afternoon representing the Commissioner's Court 7 of Tarrant County. Only after signing up to speak this 8 morning did I become aware of yesterday's actions and 9 certainly the Commission's Court will applaud the 10 opportunity that you're providing for our local 11 governments to acquire this -- this park. The park is 12 located in Precinct 4, and it is a very beautiful piece of 13 land. The -- I guess in a perfect world, we might be 14 allowed a little bit more time. This -- I understand the 15 appraised value of this park is in excess of $6 million 16 and as Mr. Gilleland commented I think it's already turned 17 to gold, that's land in Tarrant County. Fort Worth and 18 Tarrant County, we're all but have our final budgets 19 approved, so it's going to be rough getting that $6 20 million together in such a short time. We might be back 21 asking for a brief extension if we get close. But we 22 appreciate your thoughts. Thank you. 23 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. Do we have 24 any comments or questions from the Commission? 25 Commissioner Fitzsimons? I'm sorry. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 162 1 MR. STRIPLING: I'm Wes Stripling and I was 2 signed up to speak. 3 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Oh, my goodness. I'm 4 so sorry. Yes, sir. Wesley Stripling. So sorry. 5 MR. STRIPLING: Madame Chairman, 6 Commissioners, my name is Wes Stripling. I'm an attorney. 7 I'm here today representing Lloyd, Walsh -- that would be 8 William Lloyd Walsh and Richard Walsh. William Lloyd 9 Walsh was the original owner of approximately 100 acres of 10 the for 400-acre property in Tarrant County. He sold that 11 property to the Parks and Wildlife approximately in 1980, 12 retained 50 percent of the minerals. Richard Walsh is an 13 adjoining landowner. We're here today to oppose any type 14 of sale to a private development. I would echo 15 Commissioner Avila's sentiments of that. You all reflect 16 carefully on the proper disposition of these properties. 17 The purpose of the acquisition originally was for public 18 convenience, necessity and other purposes, and it was 19 acquired under threat of eminent domain. And I have a 20 letter from the Commission that will confirm that. And 21 certainly an eminent domain, the only purpose for eminent 22 domain is indeed the public convenience and necessity or 23 other public purpose. I would suggest that sale to a 24 private enterprise would not satisfy that. 25 I would also suggest that a sale of a property ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 163 1 of this size would be in conflict with the mission 2 statement of the Commission, and that is to conserve and 3 manage natural resources and to provide outdoor recreation 4 and manage historical sites. 5 In the overall conservation water plan, this 6 area is a Tier 2 priority and I would suggest that to sell 7 this to a private developer, simply would be more 8 condominiums, more boat ramps, more boat traffic and in an 9 area that is already widely overdeveloped in the Eagle 10 Mountain area. I also suggest that there has been 11 insufficient public information on the impact that this 12 sale would have on the area and that that's something that 13 I would think that you all would want to consider. 14 The only public notice regarding the sale of 15 this property pertained to the public notice and public 16 comment on the plan in its entirety and those hearings 17 were conducted in Plano and -- Plano north of Dallas and 18 in Amarillo. And so I would say that the Commission has 19 been deprived of any meaningful comment from the people 20 who would be most impacted from the sale. And so, 21 therefore, we would respectfully request that you deny the 22 approval of the sale today until you get -- put some 23 safeguards in place to assure that this would not fall 24 into the hands of a private developer. Thank you very 25 much. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 164 1 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. Do we have 2 any comments or questions from the Commission? 3 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: I do. Sir, counsel, 4 Mr. Stripling. 5 MR. STRIPLING: I'm sorry. 6 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: I just have a 7 question. Have you looked at the deed to determine 8 whether or not there's any express restrictions or 9 limitations in the deed? 10 MR. STRIPLING: I have. There is not. 11 There's a reservation of 50 percent of the minerals. 12 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: And that's it? 13 MR. STRIPLING: Uh-huh. 14 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: But there is no 15 limitation on sale or for future use or anything? 16 MR. STRIPLING: There is no restriction. I 17 do have, however, the letter from the Texas Parks and 18 Wildlife Commission which I would be happy to make a copy 19 available to the Commission which indicates -- I can read 20 it to you. It's quite brief. 21 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Do you know if that 22 letter was incorporated into the deed? 23 MR. STRIPLING: I do not know the answer to 24 that question. The truth of the matter is my clients 25 had -- only became aware of this issue just a few days ago ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 165 1 and really have had insufficient time to properly evaluate 2 it. Would you like for me to read the letter? 3 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: If you would like to. 4 MR. STRIPLING: This is from the Executive 5 Director, Charles Travis, to Mr. Walsh, "I wish to advise 6 you that the Parks and Wildlife Commission authorized 7 acquisition of your 99.66 acres in Tarrant County for 8 public convenience necessity and other purposes. Although 9 the property was acquired by negotiation, it was 10 negotiated and acquired under the threat of the 11 Department's power of eminent domain. Sincerely," and 12 then it's not only signed by the Executive Director but 13 also approved by Les King, who was at that time Assistant 14 Attorney General. 15 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Okay. Thank you. 16 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Do we have any 17 comments from any of the other Commissioners? 18 Commissioner Avila? 19 COMMISSIONER AVILA: The only comment I 20 would add to this and obviously I think everybody knows 21 this, it's been very well and thoroughly discussed. In 22 regards to moving forward, I would bow to the sentiments 23 of my fellow Commissioners as such action is, you know, 24 commensurate with what our plan is in terms of acquiring 25 land in larger amounts within a 90-minute area and so ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 166 1 forth. Yesterday we talked about a time frame and 2 deliberately didn't put this in Jack's motion, because it 3 actually gave more time. I mean, so the way I'm 4 interpreting this is we're going do give every preference 5 to the local government, local communities in putting this 6 together assuming we move forward in some steadfast way 7 and that there is no time frame. Am I right on that, 8 Jack? 9 MR. BAUER: I think in my interpretation of 10 being a land person, I think that that in general is true. 11 I think the other factors that would be involved in this 12 from a decision of all of us would be, of course, we're 13 trying to find a suitable replacement and so there are 14 other lands and other components of the transaction in 15 general that would be in consideration, but I think, yeah 16 you have heard from staff and certainly the sentiment of 17 staff is that the opportunity for this facility to stay 18 available and open to the public for the people of Fort 19 Worth is what everyone would like to have. And to the 20 extent that we can use the values that we have invested in 21 this property convert to another place also for the people 22 of Fort Worth, could very possibly create a situation 23 where everybody comes out of this in a very positive way. 24 COMMISSIONER AVILA: I think that's 25 important for everybody to realize, that this is a -- the ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 167 1 direction we're talking here is we're going to get a 2 two-fer out of this. We're looking for nondeveloper 3 public privatization use of that area and still get an 4 area of 4 or 5,000 acres within 90 minutes is what you're 5 saying. 6 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Madame Chairman. 7 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Commissioner Ramos? 8 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Just for the record, 9 Jack, if we were to pass this motion we would be 10 authorizing staff to sell it, but obviously staff will 11 make the decision as to whether it should be sold at some 12 point? You're really asking for the authority to pursue 13 the sale of these tracts. Correct? 14 MR. BAUER: Yes, sir, that's correct. 15 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: But if for whatever 16 reason the price or for whatever reason it does not 17 happen, you're not mandated to sell it, in other words, 18 and you're not asking that it be mandated for sale; you're 19 just asking for authority to sell. 20 MR. BAUER: Yes, sir, that's correct. 21 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: That's fine. Thank 22 you. 23 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Commissioner Avila, do 24 you have any more further questions or comments? Do we 25 have any further questions or comments? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 168 1 MR. STRIPLING: This is the only property 2 of three properties that are being proposed for sale right 3 now where even though the Commission is expressing good 4 intentions as to what the disposition of that is, there 5 actually is no restriction on who that would be sold to 6 and indeed there -- if the staff is authorized to sell 7 that, then the way that I understand the resolution that 8 is a cart blanche to sell it and if they determine at that 9 time that they can raise the money to sell it to a private 10 enterprise that it could therefore be sold to a private 11 enterprise without further comment. Would that be 12 correct? 13 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: I don't believe that's 14 correct. I believe that they would have to come to us for 15 approval for the sale before that sale could be 16 consummated. Is that correct? 17 MR. BAUER: That would be the way that we 18 would feel a comfort level in doing it. We might have 19 greater authority than that, but I don't think we would 20 have the comfort level to do that without assuring that 21 the Commission knew what the -- what the technical 22 components of the transaction were to be. 23 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Donato? 24 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: I want to suggest in 25 view of that statement that we amend your proposed ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 169 1 recommendation and that the staff as it relates only to 2 the Eagle Mountain Lake State Park that you come back to 3 the Commission for express authority to consummate the 4 sale. In other words, you have the authority to proceed 5 with it, but before that sale would be consummated that 6 would you come back to the Commission with the details and 7 subject to Commission approval. 8 COMMISSIONER HENRY: I second that. 9 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Only as to that with 10 one Eagle Mountain Lake State Park. 11 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Commissioner Angelo? 12 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: Is that a motion to 13 adopt it with that change? 14 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Yes. 15 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: I would second that 16 motion. 17 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: All in favor? 18 ("Aye.") 19 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Opposed? Motion 20 carries. 21 "The Executive Director is authorized to take all 22 necessary steps to sell, at or above fair market value, 23 the 400-acre Eagle Mount Lake State Park in Tarrant 24 County, property associated with the Seabrook Marine Lab 25 to the City of Seabrook in Harris County, and ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 170 1 approximately 95 acres associated with the golf course at 2 Stephen F. Austin State Park in Austin County to the 3 Stephen F. Austin Golf Association. In the case of Eagle 4 Mountain Lake State Park, preference will be given to 5 accommodate sale of the property to a local governmental 6 entity or governmental/private partnership and the 7 Executive Director is directed to bring a sale 8 recommendation before the Texas Parks and Wildlife 9 Commission for final approval." 10 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you. Okay. 11 Thank you. Mr. Cook, do we have any further business? 12 MR BAUER: Ma'am, we have one more item. 13 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Oh, I'm sorry. Oh, my 14 goodness. Go ahead. Sorry. Yeah, but do it quickly. 15 AGENDA ITEM NO. 18: ACTION - LAND ACQUISITION - CAMERON 16 COUNTY, SMITH COUNTY, WILLACY COUNTY 17 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Action Item No. 18 18 Land Acquisition. 19 MR. BAUER: We're obviously all quite ready 20 to be done. 21 COMMISSIONER AVILA: Move approval. 22 MR. BAUER: The other component of land 23 actions is -- are the proposals for land acquisitions and 24 we have three. This is again a very brief summary from 25 discussions yesterday in Executive Session. The lands are ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 171 1 that are considered for acquisition include a 600-acre 2 habitat tract in Smith County as a habitat addition to Old 3 Sabine Bottom Wildlife Management Area and the purchase of 4 a perpetual lease on 40 acres of land in Willacy County 5 that would be, again, a habitat addition to the Arroyo 6 Colorado Unit of the Las Palomas Wildlife Management Area 7 and at the Longoria Unit of Las Palomas in Cameron County 8 a habitat addiction of farmland adjacent to that tract. 9 And the motion that we have before you would 10 give staff authority to take the actions to acquire these 11 three tracts as briefed. And I would be happy to answer 12 any questions on this item. 13 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: Are there any 14 questions or comments from the Commission? Do we have a 15 motion? 16 COMMISSIONER AVILA: Moved. 17 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Second. 18 COMMISSIONER HENRY: Second. 19 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: Discussion? All in 20 favor say aye. 21 ("Aye.") 22 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: Opposed? Motion is 23 adopted. 24 "The Executive Director is authorized to take all 25 necessary steps to acquire approximately 600 acres in ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 172 1 Smith County as an addition to Old Sabine Bottom Wildlife 2 Management Area, approximately 40 acres in Willacy County 3 as a perpetual lease addition to the Arroyo Colorado Unit 4 of the Las Palomas Wildlife Manage Area, and approximately 5 117 acres in Cameron County as habitat additions to the 6 Longoria Unit of the Las Palomas Wildlife Management 7 Area." 8 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: Is there any other 9 business before the Commission? 10 MR. COOK: No, sir. 11 VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO: If not, this meeting 12 is adjourned. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 173 1 THE STATE OF TEXAS ) 2 COUNTY OF TRAVIS ) 3 I, Rhonda Howard, a Certified Court Reporter in and 4 for the State of Texas, do hereby certify that the above 5 and foregoing pages constitute a full, true, and correct 6 transcript of the minutes of the Texas Parks and Wildlife 7 Commission on August 29, 2002, in the Commission hearing 8 room of the Texas Parks and Wildlife Headquarters Complex, 9 Austin, Travis County, Texas. 10 I FURTHER CERTIFY that a stenographic record was made 11 by me at the time of the public meeting and said 12 stenographic notes were thereafter reduced to computerized 13 transcription under my supervision and control. 14 WITNESS MY HAND this ____ day of 15 ____________________, 2002. 16 17 18 ___________________________ Rhonda Howard, Texas CSR 4136 19 Expiration Date: 12/31/2002 3101 Bee Caves Road 20 Suite 220, Centre II Austin, Texas 78701 21 (512) 328-5557 22 23 24 25 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139 . 174 1 2 3 4 ___________________________ KATHARINE ARMSTRONG, CHAIRMAN 5 6 ___________________________ ERNEST ANGELO, JR, VICE-CHAIRMAN 7 8 ___________________________ JOSEPH FITZSIMONS 9 10 ___________________________ KELLY W. RISING, M.D. 11 12 ___________________________ PHIL MONTGOMERY 13 14 ___________________________ JOHN AVILA, JR. 15 16 ___________________________ ALVIN L. HENRY 17 18 ___________________________ DONATO D. RAMOS 19 20 ___________________________ MARK E. WATSON, JR. 21 22 23 24 25 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 3101 BEE CAVES ROAD, SUITE 220 AUSTIN, TEXAS 78746 PH (512) 328-5557 FAX (512) 328-8139