Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission
Regulations Committee
Aug. 28, 2002
Commission Hearing RoomTexas Parks & Wildlife Department Headquarters Complex
4200 Smith School Road
Austin, TX 78744
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6 BE IT REMEMBERED, that heretofore on the 28th day of
7 August, 2002, there came to be heard matters under the
8 regulatory authority of the Parks and Wildlife
9 Commission of Texas, in the Commission Hearing Room of
10 the Texas Parks and Wildlife Headquarters Complex,
11 Austin, Texas, beginning at 9:00 a.m. to wit:
12
APPEARANCES:
13 THE TEXAS PARKS AND WILDLIFE COMMISSION:
14 REGULATIONS COMMITTEE:
15 CHAIRMAN: Katharine Armstrong, Austin, Texas
Ernest Angelo, Jr., Vice Chairman, Midland,
16 Texas
John Avila, Jr., Fort Worth, Texas
17 Joseph B.C. Fitzsimons, San Antonio, Texas,
Committee Chair
18 Alvin L. Henry, Houston, Texas
Philip Montgomery, Dallas, Texas
19 Donato D. Ramos, Laredo, Texas
Kelly W. Rising, M.D., Beaumont, Texas
20 Mark E. Watson, Jr., San Antonio, Texas
21 THE TEXAS PARKS AND WILDLIFE DEPARTMENT:
Robert L. Cook, Executive Director, and other personnel
22 of the Parks and Wildlife Department
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25
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1 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Good morning. This
2 meeting is called to order. Before proceeding with any
3 business, I believe Mr. Cook has a statement to make.
4 MR. COOK: Madam Chairman, a public
5 notice of this meeting containing all items on the
6 proposed agenda has been filed in the office of the
7 Secretary of State, as required by Chapter 551
8 Government Code, referred to as the Open Meetings Law.
9 I would like for this action to be noted in the official
10 record of this meeting.
11 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you, Mr. Cook.
12 We will begin today with the regulations committee.
13 Commissioner Fitzsimons will call your committee to
14 order.
15 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Thank you,
16 Madam Chair. The regulations committee will come to
17 order at 9:00 a.m., August 28th. And the first order of
18 business is the approval of the committee minutes from
19 the previous meeting. If anyone has any comments or
20 changes to the minutes?
21 Hearing none, the committee approves the
22 minutes and the motion carries. And, Bob, the first
23 item in the chairman's charge.
24 MR. COOK: Thank you, sir. In June, the
25 participants in our natural leaders program presented
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1 their project completion reports. Two of these reports
2 addressed provisions of Senate Bill 305. They were a
3 part of this committee's charge. These include creating
4 a training program for new Commission members and
5 development of a complaint management policy and process
6 for the maintenance of complaint information.
7 In addition, the coastal fisheries
8 division has completed the required comprehensive study
9 of the shrimp resources of the state, and a copy of the
10 report will be provided to you by mail.
11 Mr. Chairman, if I might, I'd like to --
12 as we -- as we get this meeting started, I'd like to
13 introduce a couple of new people and a -- and a new
14 selection that I've recently made to the audience and to
15 the Commission. It is -- it is with great pride and
16 honor that I introduce to you Ann Bright.
17 Ann, if you would, we'll -- we'll ask you
18 to stand up. Y'all just remain standing. Ann is -- has
19 hired on and come as our general counsel. This is her
20 first week, so we're proud to have her and appreciate
21 her being here.
22 Drew Thigpen is our deputy executive
23 director for administration divisions. Drew will be
24 working primarily with Suzy Whittenton's division,
25 Annette's division, and Lydia's division, in those
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1 administrative areas.
2 And just the most recent, I hope you have
3 noticed that we now have a new deputy executive director
4 for our field operation group. Scott Boruff has been
5 selected for that job. All three of these jobs are
6 obviously huge -- have huge responsibilities and will
7 play major roles in the -- in the department. I am -- I
8 am very appreciative of having these folks on our team.
9 I think they'll be a great asset to us and will -- and
10 will fill many of the -- of the goals and objectives
11 that we have. Thank you, very much.
12 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: On behalf of the
13 Commission, I want to compliment Bob Cook for the
14 excellent job he did in recruiting these wonderful
15 people. The Commission is -- is indeed happy to have
16 all three of you on board. I think you'll help make
17 Bob's job easier. And it certainly will help make our
18 job easier. Thank you all for being here.
19 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Thank you, Bob.
20 Our next item on our agenda for the regulations
21 committee is the Game Bird Proclamation, late season.
22 Vernon?
23 MR. BEVILL: I see they've got the screen
24 up here where I can read it today. That's good.
25 Mr. Chairman, my name is Vernon Bevill,
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1 and I am the game bird program director. And we're here
2 today to talk about the -- if I can get it to work.
3 There we go. -- the Late Season Migratory Bird
4 Proclamation primarily dealing with ducks, geese, and
5 the sandhill cranes. There are a number of proposed
6 changes this year, and this is a summary of these
7 changes.
8 We have extension frameworks on each end
9 of the duck season for about -- about a week. In other
10 words, the duck season can begin a little earlier, back
11 into September. And it can end a little later, the last
12 Sunday in January. Canvasback population dropped below
13 the triggering threshold for a season. And the Fish and
14 Wildlife Service opted to close that season.
15 The population of pintails is below the
16 long-term average substantially and have not responded
17 to habitat condition recovery back when -- when things
18 were a lot wetter up north. And we are looking at a
19 39-day restricted season on taking canvasback.
20 We've made a little division in the
21 eastern goose zone to accommodate our light goose
22 conservation rules, as well as deal with the extension
23 of the duck season framework. And we are proposing a
24 change in the east goose zone bag limit.
25 For ducks, in the High Plains Mallard
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1 Management Unit, the significant change that I would
2 call to your attention is that you -- you remember that
3 we were reduced to a nine-day teal season this -- this
4 spring, which starts in September. But since we now
5 have the opportunity to open the regular duck season on
6 the Saturday nearest the 24th of September. And our
7 teal season actually closes on the 22nd.
8 With a lot of feedback from the High
9 Plains Mallard Management Unit, we're going to go into
10 that first split of the regular duck season the day
11 after material season closes, which would be a Monday.
12 And let me see if I can back this up. And that would
13 allow a week of the regular duck season, which in effect
14 would give us a 16-day teal season with bonus other
15 ducks. So that should work very well. And we've gotten
16 a lot of support from the -- from the people that hunt
17 in that part of the state. So we're recommending that.
18 And then the regular season would open on
19 the 26th of October and would end on the 22nd of
20 January, which is a Wednesday. We -- this allowed us to
21 take the full 107-day opportunity for hunting migratory
22 birds in that -- in that unit.
23 For the -- for the north zone, we have a
24 total of 76 days to utilize. And, of course, in each
25 zone we're proposing a two-day youth season. And that
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1 uses two of those days. The -- the regular duck season,
2 we're proposing that first short split, that we have in
3 the past, on the 9th and 10th of November. It's a
4 two-day split. And then we reopen the following
5 Saturday. And this year we are proposing to run that
6 season until the last day of opportunity, which is
7 January the 26th.
8 North Zone hunters have consistently told
9 us they want most of their days late. The extension
10 framework allows us to do that and provides them an
11 extra week, when hopefully the weather will be cold
12 enough to move some mallards into the state of Texas.
13 In the South Zone, again, we have 76
14 days. We are proposing to open the first split on
15 November the 2nd and end it on December the 1st. Our
16 South Zone hunters in a recent survey told us that
17 December is -- is the month that they want more days in.
18 And so instead of having a 12-day split in early
19 December, we're only proposing a five-day split and
20 reopening on December the 7th. And then end the season
21 on January the 19th, which is a week earlier than we
22 could end it, but that is to continue to address the
23 Light Goose Conservation Order and to try to provide the
24 same opportunity for light geese. That's so that we can
25 manage that population back down to an acceptable level,
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1 so the habitat destruction on the breeding ground will
2 be subdued.
3 This year, again, we have a six-bird bag
4 with the two exceptions, I mentioned earlier. We will
5 establish a 39-day canvasback season with a one-bird
6 bag. And I mean -- I'm sorry. Pintail season with a
7 one-bird bag. And then the canvasback season is closed
8 statewide this year.
9 In the western goose zone, the -- the --
10 we're proposing again the same basic season as last
11 year, October the 26th to February the 9th, with a
12 20-bird bag for light geese. Same season dates for dark
13 geese with a five-bird bag, no more than one of which
14 can be a white-front.
15 In the eastern goose zone, we're
16 proposing a white-front season that would run from
17 October the 26th to January the 19th with a two-bird
18 bag. And then the Canada goose/brant season, that would
19 be the same dates, also with a two-bird bag. And the
20 hunter could have an aggregate three, no more than two
21 of which could be a white front. So that gives them a
22 little more to work with than we had last year, that
23 we're actually adding a Canada goose to that bag limit.
24 In the -- in the north segment of the
25 eastern goose zone, we're proposing to -- to run the
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1 season from October the 26th to January the 26th. But
2 in the south segment, October the 26th to January the
3 19th. That allows us south of I-10 to go into the Light
4 Goose Conservation Order the day after the duck and
5 goose season closes.
6 So this gives us some opportunity to
7 begin the light goose season while there's still plenty
8 of light geese that's south of I-10. And there will be
9 an extra week of hunting above I-10 for the regular
10 goose season and the duck season. And then that
11 following week, they would then go into the light
12 goose -- goose season, as well.
13 And, again, that light goose season is
14 unchanged from last year, except for calendar dates.
15 We're still working with the federal law on that,
16 although the Environmental Impact Statement hasn't been
17 written. It has not been implemented yet. We
18 anticipate that it will not be implemented until
19 probably later this winter.
20 We do have some opportunity for an
21 extended falconry season in our north and south duck
22 zones, since we do not use all 107 days available to us
23 for duck hunting with gun. So the extended falconry
24 season would be January 27th to February 17th in the
25 north zone and January the 20th to February the 10th in
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1 the south zone with a 3-bird bag.
2 For sandhill cranes, the main point I
3 would make that in zone C -- again, we have to close
4 that zone early, a little earlier than we could run the
5 season because of the Light Goose Conservation Order.
6 So that season would be closing on January the 19th.
7 Other than that, we had the basic season same as last
8 year in the other two zones.
9 Public comments, we have a total of 77 to
10 date. I would say that the thing I would like to bring
11 your attention to is, in the south duck zone, we have
12 had 32 comments so far requesting the extension of the
13 framework to the last possible day, which would be the
14 26th of September. We have chosen not to -- to react to
15 that series of public comments because of our commitment
16 to the Light Goose Conservation Order and feel that is
17 the paramount conservation issue that we're dealing with
18 and need to stay committed to that. So we're not
19 recommending changing the south zone framework dates.
20 High Plains Mallard Management Unit, you
21 can see we've had 17 comments in favor of that early
22 duck season. So we -- and we feel like that's going to
23 be a good opportunity for the High Plains Mallard
24 Management Unit duck hunters.
25 And then there's a scattering of other
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1 comments. There's been 13 comments preferring that we
2 set the pintail -- the 39-day pintail season a little
3 earlier. There has been a small group of comments
4 requesting that we have a one-week split in the north
5 goose zone in December. But the preponderance of people
6 that talked to us about north goose zone dates still
7 want a -- as many days of opportunity as late as they
8 can get. So I feel that we've accommodated that, then
9 we'd hear from all the other folks that thought it was
10 okay the way it was.
11 So -- but that's just, you know, a
12 general review of the public comments. And we'll be
13 coming before the Commission tomorrow with the formal
14 presentation. If there's any questions, I'd be happy to
15 answer them. Or try.
16 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: When is the 39 days
17 for pintails only? What -- the only pintail season of
18 39 days, when does that come in the season?
19 MR. BEVILL: Basically, in the north and
20 south zone, it will be the last 39 days of the season.
21 In the High Plains Mallard Management Unit, since that
22 season is going to end on Wednesday, we felt like more
23 opportunity would be afforded the hunters if we backed
24 that date up to end it on the 19th and then count back
25 39 days, which will start it on a Saturday. I want to
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1 say it's the 12th of December, if my memory serves me
2 correctly.
3 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Vernon, there
4 was quite a bit of discussion last year when we were
5 talking about the Light Goose Conservation Order on the
6 status of the snow goose and the habitat destruction
7 issue resulting from overpopulation in the breeding
8 grounds. What's the status of that problem?
9 MR. BEVILL: We -- we are bringing the
10 population down, according to the information that I'm
11 getting. Frankly, it's coming down slower than we would
12 all like to see. We just got the report from our
13 statistician group just a couple of weeks ago, indicated
14 that our harvest during that segment in Texas was about
15 87,000 additional light geese last winter. I don't know
16 what that number is floyway-wide or between the
17 Mississippi and the central flyway, but it is coming
18 down. There is continuing habitat destruction because
19 it's still way too high.
20 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: So the
21 habitat -- there hasn't been any habitat improvement?
22 MR. BEVILL: No.
23 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Too soon to
24 tell.
25 MR. BEVILL: No. And I wouldn't
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1 anticipate much habitat improvement for a decade or more
2 after you get that population down to a more manageable
3 level because it's such a slow recovery process in that
4 kind of environment.
5 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: And we're in
6 the beginning of a long haul in the snow goose problem.
7 MR. BEVILL: Whoever -- whoever is
8 sitting in front of the Commission 30 years from now
9 will still be talking about this issue, I'm afraid.
10 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Thank you.
11 Anybody -- anyone have any further questions for --
12 Vernon, thank you.
13 MR. BEVILL: Thank you.
14 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: If there's no
15 further questions or discussion, without objection, I'll
16 place this item on the Thursday Commission meeting
17 agenda for public comment and action.
18 Next, Scientific Breeder Regulations
19 Disease Testing and Monitoring Measures, Jerry Cooke.
20 MR. COOKE: Mr. Chairman and members, my
21 name is Jerry Cooke. I'm Game Branch chief of the
22 wildlife division. I'll be presenting you these
23 proposed changes to the scientific breeder regulations.
24 As you know, chronic wasting disease has
25 developed into a national issue of public concern. The
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1 proposal before you was initiated in the January meeting
2 of 2002. Action on this item was postponed at both the
3 April and May Commission meetings and was republished to
4 allow the Texas Deer Association more time to develop a
5 voluntary program adequate to address the state's
6 concerns for monitoring this disease.
7 126 facilities was the monitoring goal,
8 as established by the Animal Health Commission. Since
9 the last meeting, Parks and Wildlife Department has
10 approached the completion of our -- of our plan to deal
11 with this disease. We have strong grasp -- we've had
12 comments back from the Animal Health Commission. It
13 includes many things, not the least of which is to test
14 clinical animals as they are encountered in the wild.
15 To date, we tested 11. All have been negative, which is
16 a positive.
17 And we also plan to test animals taken
18 from our wildlife management area hunts and state park
19 hunts this year, which will range between 500 and 1,000
20 animals, as is expected.
21 As of this morning, at 8:06, there have
22 been 170 applications to the Texas Animal Commission
23 from scientific breeder holders to participate in the
24 CWD Monitoring Program.
25 As our proposals were laid out, because
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1 of this response by the efforts of both the
2 Texas Wildlife Association and the Texas Deer
3 Association and our chairman, specifically, I think is
4 very effective. I don't believe that our adoption of a
5 definition of "in healthy condition" or the prohibitions
6 associated with that definition are really needed at
7 this time. And as long as the monitoring is adequate in
8 the state, I believe that it should be a voluntary
9 program.
10 But there are other proposals that were
11 published at the same time that I'd like to bring before
12 you, also. Previously, in our meetings with breeders as
13 a group, we had kind of reached a compromise arrangement
14 of -- concerning marking fawns in the scientific
15 breeding facility. And in lieu of having all animals
16 marked by a certain date, which required handling
17 animals, which was not always easy and not always safe,
18 we simply requested a fawn report. How many fawns do
19 you have in your facility, period, provided by November
20 1. And this was adopted by a previous Commission.
21 Unfortunately, we also had a lot of other
22 proposed changes at that time. And that -- that
23 adoption was never posted. We never published that
24 proposed change -- or that adopted change with the
25 Secretary of State because virtually no one who adopted
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1 that is still here. We didn't want you to think that we
2 were doing it as a housekeeping measure and not bringing
3 it to your attention. I believe it is a housekeeping
4 issue, if you all still agree that this is a good thing
5 for us to do.
6 Also, there were several provisions for
7 temporary transfer of animals from a facility to -- for
8 nursing purposes, for veterinary purposes, for breeding
9 purposes, those kinds of things, which is still cool.
10 Unfortunately, a thing came up in the last year which we
11 need to clarify, that we didn't mean that you could move
12 them outside of the jurisdiction of the state
13 temporarily and bring them back in. If you're going to
14 temporarily transfer them, it needs to be within Texas.
15 If you're going to move them out of Texas, that's a
16 different matter.
17 And third, part of the proclamation is
18 very clear on this issue. Not all of it is, and we
19 would like to clarify. We would like to have the issue
20 clarified by you, if you would. And that is the issue
21 of permission -- written permission required for release
22 of animals from a facility into the wild. It has never
23 been a big issue in the past. But then CWD has never
24 been a big issue in the past. Nor have our monitoring
25 efforts been an issue in the past. And that is one of
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1 the proposals that we would like to have clarified. And
2 we'd like to hear from you on.
3 Another issue that's not directly related
4 to this -- the proposal that's before you -- with the
5 fact that the Texas Animal Health Commission has
6 established their entry requirements in Texas, they have
7 removed their import suspension animals under their
8 jurisdiction, which only leaves our import suspension
9 still in place for white tail and mule deer. And I
10 believe that it would be appropriate for us to publish a
11 proposal to change that, to remove our prohibition on
12 importation for consideration at the November meeting.
13 We can't do it at this meeting because the appropriate
14 sections are not open.
15 But that's basically the end of my
16 discussion here. If you have any questions, I would be
17 happy to entertain them.
18 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: And the reason
19 your recommendation of removing that prohibition is that
20 it's no longer necessary now that the Animal Health
21 Commission has promulgated their rules?
22 MR. COOKE: Absolutely. From the very
23 first day that we discussed import suspension, it was
24 for the purpose of providing adequate cover for the
25 Animal Health Commission to complete their rule-making
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1 process. And that rule-making process is now complete.
2 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: What does that --
3 what does their rule entail?
4 MR. COOKE: Their rule entails a
5 monitoring requirement of animals coming into the state,
6 which varies. If animals are coming from a state that
7 has no chronic waste disease, has not found any chronic
8 waste disease, and has a state-sponsored monitoring
9 program, the facility would have to be under that
10 program for three years before an animal could be
11 approved to come in.
12 If it is from a state that has not had
13 any chronic wasting disease reportedly from it but does
14 not have a state-sponsored monitoring program, and they
15 enumerate in their rule what an adequate monitoring
16 program is, then five years in a -- a facility would
17 have to demonstrate to the Animal Health Commission that
18 they've been doing it all by themselves. And they've
19 been doing it based on the definition of a monitoring
20 program for five years in order to come in.
21 And if an animal is coming from a state
22 that has had chronic wasting disease reported and has a
23 state monitoring program, it has to be in the monitoring
24 program for five years to come in. Everyone involved in
25 the discussion - and lots of people were involved in the
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1 discussion - all nodded. This is a good entry
2 requirement to protect the states and still allow
3 commerce to take place and minimizing risk.
4 COMMISSIONER COOK: I want to make sure
5 to mention, you said, as of 8:00 a.m. this morning, they
6 have 170 volunteer breeders signed to participate in
7 this voluntary testing program. As I recall the number,
8 that kind of our floor was 120 --
9 MR. COOKE: 126 was the goal. 170 as of
10 this morning. They have considerable momentum. I still
11 have calls on my voice mail right now talking about it.
12 Virtually everyone who has talked to me about the
13 program has gone ahead and signed up. So I expect this
14 number to rise, to be very frank with you. As I said,
15 the main point is, as long as testing is adequate in
16 this state, it should be a voluntary program. And we
17 should all work toward quit and maintaining a voluntary
18 program that works for us -- for us all.
19 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Bob, if I could
20 follow up on that, according to the minutes from our
21 last meeting, the number was 11. The confirmed number
22 was 11, and 30 was the possible. And we've gone from
23 that to 170?
24 MR. COOKE: Correct.
25 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Pretty
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1 impressive, the change in totals up there.
2 MR. COOKE: There's 480 in the state.
3 Montana. Now -- now, 480 -- that's everybody that's got
4 a permit right now. And then there's quite a few new
5 ones in there. There's 427 that reported -- that gave
6 us an annual report from last year. So that's how many
7 really functional facilities we have.
8 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: What you're
9 outlining is a ban on importation and substituting the
10 voluntary procedure?
11 MR. COOKE: Well, our rules -- our rules
12 are to require that an animal coming into this state
13 under our program be in compliance with all the Animal
14 Health Commission rules. So, in other words, all of
15 those entry requirements that the Animal Health
16 Commission adopted are required from their perspective,
17 but it's also required from our proclamation, which
18 means our people can enforce those -- those entry
19 requirements, as well. So -- so they'll be coming in
20 under those -- under those stipulations.
21 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: For everybody,
22 not just people in the voluntary program?
23 MR. COOKE: For everybody.
24 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: Yeah.
25 MR. COOKE: Everybody in Texas.
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1 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Jerry, is it
2 fair to say -- this may be simplistic. But is it fair
3 to say that our proclamation at the emergency meeting
4 where we prohibited the importation was necessary until
5 the Animal Health Commission promulgated these new rules
6 that you just described?
7 MR. COOKE: I agree, Bob.
8 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Okay.
9 MR. COOKE: Yes, I do agree.
10 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: I know that's
11 boiling it down a little bit.
12 MR. COOKE: That there was no protection
13 at that time. There is adequate protection at this
14 time.
15 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: And one other
16 question. The 170 -- I know this is -- these are
17 numbers that have been coming in within the last hour.
18 But any indication of the number of animals that
19 represents?
20 MR. COOKE: No. Not until -- not until
21 the herd health plans are promulgated by the Animal
22 Health Commission will we really know. Let's put it
23 this way. If we got a list of who they were, we would
24 know. But I don't know what that is.
25 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: But we will
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1 know that in a -- in time, we'll know?
2 MR. COOKE: If you're asking, yes, is the
3 answer.
4 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Okay.
5 Commissioner Ramos, it's your...
6 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: You mentioned that
7 there may be different standards for the deer coming in
8 from -- from out of state. How are animals traced? For
9 example, an animal may have been in Colorado for two
10 years, and then it ends up in Louisiana or in Oklahoma
11 and eventually works its way. Do you know whether the
12 system has protection to be able to identify an animal
13 as having originated -- been maybe 18 months in Colorado
14 and 12 months --
15 MR. COOKE: Yes. Because when an animal
16 comes into a facility, the facility takes on the
17 monitoring status of the facility from which that animal
18 came. So if I have a five-year status and you have a
19 three-year status and I buy a deer from you, I have a
20 three-year status. So, in other words, those monitoring
21 programs in the various states look at that very
22 closely, because it affects the status of the facility
23 itself.
24 COMMISSIONER COOK: In other words, that
25 seniority or that lack of seniority carries with -- when
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1 a deer comes into a herd, if it's below the standard, it
2 drops the entire herd?
3 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: The herd
4 assumes the status of the lowest animal.
5 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: The data that we're
6 assimilating and we're accumulating -- Jerry, in your
7 opinion, how long will it take before we really will
8 have the true results of that data? In other words, is
9 that something we should expect in 60 days or 90 days or
10 six months?
11 MR. COOKE: As far as --
12 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Results.
13 MR. COOKE: For an animal coming in?
14 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: No. An animal
15 that's killed within the state.
16 MR. COOKE: Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't
17 understand your question. That has a lot to do with the
18 volume that's going into the facility. These animals
19 are going to be tested through TDML over in College
20 Station. They expect -- if -- if they are presented
21 with formalized brain stem, they can turn the test
22 around in 48 hours. However, that's -- that's very
23 optimistic. You know, walking in and putting it in
24 through the -- through the program.
25 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: And your thoughts,
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1 Jerry, with regards to how long we should assimilate
2 data for internal purposes? I mean, what do you -- what
3 would you like to see in that regard? Is that something
4 that we should keep for a year, two years, six months,
5 or...
6 MR. COOKE: As far as our monitoring
7 program?
8 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: The monitoring and
9 actually being able to have enough data from within the
10 state to make an evaluation as to whether or not we may
11 have some problems within the state that we're not aware
12 of.
13 MR. COOKE: Our evaluation will be
14 ongoing. In other words, next week we'll have more
15 information than we have next week. And it's a
16 cumulative thing. And because we're -- you know, Texas
17 is a big place and there's lots of animals around, we're
18 going to be testing. We're going to be testing animals
19 this hunting season with the goal of spending our guys
20 up and getting them trained, getting equipment in their
21 hands, getting them really into the sampling frame.
22 But we're -- the plan goal is to acquire
23 from 2,000 to 3,500 animals across the state over the
24 next several years. This is going to be a cumulative
25 thing. So it's not going to be like this hunting season
.
25
1 and, oh, yeah, we're through, because it's not going to
2 be that way.
3 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: I know that we've
4 taken action from an interstate standpoint with regards
5 to the movement of deer. Have we at all considered the
6 impact of the intrastate movement of deer, in other
7 words, the movement of deer from west Texas to south
8 Texas or vice versa as -- in other words, it seems to me
9 that until we have a high level of comfort that we don't
10 have a problem, the intrastate movement of deer is as
11 significant as an interstate movement of deer.
12 MR. COOKE: Well, again, you know, one
13 could argue, well, we haven't found it yet. You know,
14 what's the problem? But on the other side of the coin,
15 once you've found it, if you just aggravated the issue,
16 then obviously that's a problem.
17 I mean, for instance, as an example, if
18 we spend this hunting season acquiring samples from our
19 state parks and wildlife management areas, and because
20 there's a backlog over the hunting season, lots of
21 animals going to the lab, let's say it's March before we
22 get a response on some of those animals and, oh, my, you
23 know, X Y Z state park is found to have chronic wasting
24 disease, and then we've found that we've just trapped
25 100 deer out of that county, scattered them over Texas.
.
26
1 That could be a very confounding issue.
2 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: It seems to me that
3 as valuable as the deer are in this state and to the
4 extent that we don't have clear-cut data at this point,
5 that we may not have it in the state. But even if we
6 take measures to keep it coming in interstate from
7 outside the state, there's still the risk that we may
8 be, or potentially, spreading it within the state in our
9 own movement.
10 MR. COOKE: Yes. That is a possibility,
11 and a concern. And a confounding element on our
12 monitoring, as well.
13 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Now, let's take the
14 Texas Animal Health Commission. Do you know whether
15 they've taken any steps at all with regards to the
16 intrastate movement of deer.
17 MR. COOKE: Not that I'm aware of.
18 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Or focused on that
19 issue.
20 MR. COOKE: There's been some discussion
21 of it. But as far as CWD is concerned, I'm not really
22 sure where they are on it to be very frank with you. I
23 have -- don't know of any rules that relate to
24 intrastate movement of animals or change of ownership of
25 animals or anything that even remotely relates to that.
.
27
1 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: I'm just saying from
2 a personal perspective, it seems to me that we've taken
3 the measures to control, or prevent and control, the
4 interstate movement of deer that might be unhealthy.
5 But we really haven't focused on within the state
6 movement of deer. And to the extent -- and I'm not
7 saying we do, but to the extent that there's a
8 potential, we may be aggravating the condition within
9 the state. Although we're protecting against out. I
10 just think we ought to look at that. I'm -- I'm not
11 convinced that's appropriate at this time. But I think
12 that should be a concern.
13 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: How much -- if
14 we're going to -- you're going to ask us to make a
15 decision in November, how much data will we have at that
16 time from what he says?
17 MR. COOKE: As far as...
18 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: Test data at
19 the November Commission meeting. Are we going to have
20 much at all?
21 MR. COOKE: No.
22 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: How much will
23 we have by January?
24 MR. COOKE: Well, in my -- in the years
25 that I was on the wildlife disease project, we would
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28
1 spend most of the year getting no calls and hearing
2 nothing. And, as soon as the hunters hit the field, you
3 found out a lot of things was going on.
4 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: That's what I'm
5 asking.
6 MR. COOK: So, basically, when the
7 opening day of hunting season comes, this is an issue
8 before lots of hunters' eyes. Clinical or suspicious
9 beasties I'm sure will be reported in considerably
10 better volume than they are today. Also, as you move
11 into winter, dwindling nutrition also begins to impact
12 animals that otherwise may not be succumbing to things.
13 So it would surprise me if we had a lot of information
14 by November. We'll have some by the January Commission
15 meeting. But to be very frank with you, it would shock
16 me if we had even most of our information in hand before
17 the April meeting.
18 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: Then I've got a
19 separate line of questioning if you want to --
20 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Well, I was just
21 going to follow up on that. Would you be able -- or --
22 and this may be a very unfair and very difficult
23 question for you, Jerry, but -- but that's all right,
24 you can still answer it. What volume of data -- in
25 looking at the current inventory of deer that we have in
.
29
1 this state, what current -- what volume of data would
2 you like to see us have before we are mentally satisfied
3 that we don't have a health issue within our state?
4 MR. COOKE: I've worked with Dr. Ken
5 Waldrup and Dr. Dan Baca of the Animal Health
6 Commission. Dan is their epidemiology stat jock. He's
7 the one who comes up with these sample sizes for
8 adequate testing. And to encounter -- to actually find
9 a disease that has a two-percent prevalence in the
10 population. Ecoregion by ecoregion, we would need at
11 least 125 to 150 animals from each region, which is
12 essentially our regulatory districts. We have eight
13 districts in Texas. Obviously, some of those wouldn't
14 necessarily apply, you know, because they're not
15 white-tail counties. But, by the same token, that's
16 basically what we're looking for. So if we could
17 acquire -- if we could acquire in the neighborhood of
18 2000, 2500 animals well distributed across the state
19 sampling all the eco-regions in Texas and we don't find
20 it in that, as Ken Waldrup will say, it's going to prove
21 beyond all reasonable doubt that God is a Texan.
22 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: You answered it
23 extremely well. From a time perspective, how long do
24 you think it would take us within the state to reach
25 that level to where we could have that comfort that,
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30
1 forgetting the external influence, internally we are
2 healthy?
3 MR. COOKE: We won't get it done in one
4 year. That's for sure. Baca, et al., at Animal Health
5 Commission would be comfortable if we acquired that much
6 information in three years. But we're going to aim at
7 two. We're going to try to get it done in two years if
8 we possibly can. And that will include clinicals and,
9 that's a very important issue.
10 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Obviously, if we
11 became more aggressive in our approach we could expedite
12 that. From a time perspective, in other words, if we
13 implemented procedures or something to where we can
14 gather more data we could shorten that time span and
15 give the state a greater level of comfort at a much
16 sooner date.
17 MR. COOK: That is absolutely correct.
18 And, as I said, our goal here is to get our sampling
19 started and get as many of our guys trained in taking
20 the samples as we possibly can. And believe -- and in my
21 opinion, having well trained individuals for making the
22 sampling and doing the sampling correctly is almost more
23 important to me this year than how many we get this
24 year. Because if we -- if we do it wrong, you know,
25 we're going to be losing ground.
.
31
1 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: When did you think
2 you're going to reach the level to where you feel you'll
3 have the adequate staff that you think will be necessary
4 to accomplish that?
5 MR. COOKE: We'll have -- we'll have the
6 staff spun up this year.
7 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: By the end of year?
8 MR. COOKE: Oh, yeah. Exactly. In other
9 words, we're already -- we've already had individuals
10 trained in region three of the wildlife division. We
11 already have plans made to have one of the
12 epidemiologists for Animal Health Commission take from
13 two from two to three guys from each region. These are
14 key guys. Our covers, you know, guys -- that's the
15 leaders and already have the interest in that area will
16 be trained in this sampling. And they're going to go
17 back and train their own folks. So we're focusing on
18 WMAs because they're going to have their hands on a lot
19 of animals, but also key field individuals within the
20 regulatory districts, as well.
21 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Have you looked at
22 all into TTT permits and whether we will be able to
23 obtain data or perhaps some monitoring system that
24 would, perhaps, assist you? I guess my concern is two
25 things. One, to make sure that we're clean within
.
32
1 Texas. And then, two, that we reach that level as
2 quickly as possible. And I guess what I'm trying to get
3 from you -- I think you've answered it, Jerry -- is what
4 can we do to expedite both sides, you know. You've
5 addressed the issue of more samples, staff, geo -- from
6 a geographic standpoint, you feel we've identified the
7 geographical areas that you have concern?
8 MR. COOKE: Oh, I see. Yes. Ken Waldrup
9 at the Animal Health Commission working with
10 Doug Humphreys and others clearly identified the
11 counties of risk, of highest risk. I believe that
12 there's 13 counties. There may be as many as 19
13 counties. And this was based on releases within the
14 county from outside the state of both elk and deer,
15 white tail. And also the population size in those
16 counties.
17 So whatever we sample this year aside
18 from our management area and public hunts, we're
19 obviously going to be looking for in those counties with
20 highest risk. In other words, we're really going to be
21 trying in those counties to focus on those risk areas.
22 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Okay. Thank you.
23 MR. COOKE: Also, as I mentioned, we do
24 have a draft of our CWD management plan. It's not
25 complete. We still have some goodies to add at the end,
.
33
1 actual procedures object some of these things. But that
2 draft is available for your review, if you so chose.
3 We're still calling it a draft because until -- until
4 Animal Health Commission and Bob and the chairman say
5 okay, this is what we expected to see, we're not going
6 to call it a plan yet.
7 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Thank you,
8 Jerry. I understand that Commissioner Wood from the
9 Animal Health Commission is in the audience today.
10 MR. COOKE: She is.
11 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Correct? And I
12 want to thank you for your help and Animal Health
13 Commission's help for getting us through this difficult
14 problem. And it's not over yet, as we point out. I
15 would like to make one note, Madam Chair.
16 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Are we almost
17 finished with this issue?
18 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: I think so.
19 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Then, I want to say
20 something. One of my best parts of my job is getting to
21 go pass out kudos when they are due. And they are
22 certainly due here. And I know several of the people
23 that have put in a great deal of effort on this issue
24 are here today. And I would like to acknowledge Karl
25 Kinsel. Karl, I saw you walking in with a big smile on
.
34
1 your face. And a 170-plus -- I -- is a terrific
2 accomplishment. I know just ten to 14 days ago, we were
3 wringing our hands and our nerves were getting a
4 little -- little prickly. But all is well that ends
5 well, and this has ended very well indeed. Kirby Brown
6 has put in a tremendous amount of effort here. Thank
7 you, Kirby and the TWA. I want to thank members of the
8 Texas Deer Association that also helped, Gary Machin,
9 Slim Crapp, Jerry Johnston, Marty Berry, and many
10 others. I want to thank the members of the Texas Animal
11 Health Commission. Please -- my come complements to
12 Commissioner Traylor and Commissioner Sharon and
13 Commissioner Wood, who is here today, Ken Waldrup,
14 Max Coats, Dr. Baca, and many, many others who have
15 helped us get to a voluntary monitoring program, which
16 is always the better way to go. Thanks to everyone.
17 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Please, Madam
18 Chair, I would echo that. I talked to Karl a few weeks
19 ago. You proved me wrong. I didn't think you could get
20 it done. But you all -- TWA and the TDA must have
21 worked night and day. And you stepped up to the plate,
22 and I appreciate it. One final note, if you want what I
23 think is the best explanation of the Animal Health
24 Commission regulations on this matter, there's an
25 article in the August 15th Livestock Weekly which tells
.
35
1 you all you ever need to know about that. And, so, if
2 you're interested in exactly how those regs work, that's
3 a good synopsis.
4 Thank you, Jerry. If there are no
5 further comments on this item of the agenda, without
6 objection, I'll place this item on the Thursday
7 Commission agenda for public comment and action.
8 MR. COOKE: Could I ask a question of
9 clarification, if I may?
10 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Yes, sir.
11 MR. COOKE: So I know what I need to do.
12 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Yes, sir.
13 MR. COOKE: Is it my -- it is my
14 understanding that you're asking me also to publish the
15 issue of importation.
16 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: For the --
17 MR. COOKE: For the November meeting.
18 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Yes, sir.
19 MR. COOKE: That's correct?
20 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Yes, sir.
21 MR. COOKE: In the discussion related to
22 movement of animals within the state, is there
23 instruction to --
24 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Further
25 briefing, I believe. Is that --
.
36
1 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: I would like to see
2 that.
3 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Further
4 briefing?
5 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: I can't see how that
6 can hurt this state and the resource. I think it's a
7 vital concern. I'd like to see staff pursue that.
8 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Is that the
9 understanding that further briefing on that issue?
10 MR. COOKE: Your call. If we publish it
11 this time, we'll be able to have a public debate on the
12 issue through public hearing and come back to you in the
13 November meeting with a possibility of making a decision
14 one way or the other, rather than briefing it and trying
15 to do it for January. But it's your call. You can
16 always say, no, in November.
17 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: I'd suggest we do it
18 in November.
19 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Yes, sir.
20 MR. COOKE: Thank you.
21 MR. COOK: I think that is important
22 because that gives everybody -- clearly say what it is
23 we're talking about. Gives everybody a chance to
24 discuss and comment on the issue. Plus, it, by action
25 in the January meeting, would precede the basic trapping
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37
1 season which occurred this winter and -- you know, the
2 latter part of this winter, if y'all make a decision
3 along that line. So it's important. It's an important
4 issue at this time. And, like I say, we can -- we can
5 review it, have some input on it, and work on it
6 November.
7 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Is that clear,
8 Jerry?
9 MR. COOKE: Yes.
10 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: All right.
11 We'll handle that for you.
12 And we'll place this item on the Thursday
13 Commission meeting agenda for public comment and action.
14 No further questions on that. Thank you, Jerry. And
15 you're up again for alternative licensing rules.
16 MR. COOKE: Once again, Mr. Chairman and
17 members, my name is Jerry Cooke, Game Ranch Chief of the
18 Wildlife Division presenting you the public rules of
19 alternative licenses. A substantial fraction of the
20 total operating funds of this agency comes through
21 license sales. While our automated point of sale system
22 provides great utility for selling licenses, monitoring
23 revenues, and providing real-time access to license
24 buyer information. Like all automated systems, it is
25 subject to catastrophic failure. During the five years
.
38
1 that we have issued licenses through the POS system,
2 we've not needed an alternative to the automated system.
3 However, there was no provision or rules, should that
4 need actually have arisen. So what we are proposing is
5 to modify the statewide Hunting and Fishing Proclamation
6 to accommodate an alternative license, should it be
7 needed. And the way this would be accomplished is
8 basically, if a hunter is holding a license from an
9 automated system, there would be no rule change for that
10 individual at all. However, if a hunter was holding a
11 hunting license that was the alternative paper license,
12 alternative to the POS system, the rules would change in
13 such a way that tagging would not be required. Tags
14 from a license would not be a required. It would
15 broaden the log on back to license to include all
16 species that previously were tagged under other rules.
17 And it would also broaden the use of the resource
18 document filled out by the hunters to act in lieu of a
19 tag. And basically that is the proposed change.
20 Yes, sir?
21 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Does that open the
22 door to thinking that we might be able to go to a
23 tagless system overall, at some point, that we have
24 talked about several times in the past?
25 MR. COOKE: It must. I mean, the
.
39
1 discussion is done.
2 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Obviously it
3 appears from that recommendation that the staff that's
4 involved in this decision believes that it can be done
5 without tags.
6 MR. COOKE: The issue has always been
7 what does a biologist or game warden do with an
8 unattended carcass. Basically, for a game warden, it
9 means we're talking long investigation. For a
10 biologist, it means, I can't collect data from that
11 animal. Because I don't know where it's from with a
12 tag.
13 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Without a physical
14 tag.
15 MR. COOKE: The resource document
16 actually takes care of that. It accommodates those
17 concerns from both aspects and actually strengthens, in
18 my opinion -- you know, you may get law enforcement
19 opinions also. But, in my opinion, it also strengthens
20 the enforceability of bag limits in areas by using the
21 log on the back of the license.
22 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: So --
23 MR. COOKE: So that's why they
24 implemented it.
25 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: -- we might think
.
40
1 that this could be considered as an alternative approach
2 for the whole system?
3 MR. COOKE: Certainly -- certainly is a
4 discussion point. Our -- my comfort -- my personal
5 comfort zone is good.
6 MR. COOK: You know, this was an
7 interesting process that we went through this year with
8 developing kind of an emergency back up licensing
9 system. And this of course was one of the issues
10 that -- to be able to pull, to rapidly print, and get a
11 turnaround on, say, a million or two million licenses or
12 some variety while, on the other hand, not waste money
13 in doing so. We evolved to this system with a lot of
14 input from all the divisions of the log -- heavy duty
15 log on the back and some other options. You will notice
16 we actually made a step in that direction earlier this
17 year in the design and development of your automated
18 license, which also now has, in addition to the tags,
19 also has a log on the back. So we're thinking about,
20 you know, getting people to think about, getting people
21 to utilize that method of record keeping, of reference.
22 So when, you know, a warden wants to check the entire
23 camp or the truck or the whatever, that we've got that
24 system in place.
25 The advantage -- of course, there are
.
41
1 pros and cons. The advantage makes a system available a
2 much simpler system available, like to go -- for
3 internet sales. Tagging, having tags, via the internet
4 is almost impossible. But we can -- we can sell
5 individual licenses, individually numbered licenses via
6 the internet effectively if we don't have a tagging
7 requirement. Again, I think it's -- I think it's one of
8 those things that we're in. As we know, we're in the
9 second year of our Worldcom contract, and right now that
10 system is working well for us. And it's certainly
11 something we want to look at in the future, get prepared
12 for, get people thinking about. There's a comfort
13 level, I think, with land owners and that tag. It's a
14 tradition that we'll -- that we'll have to cross. But
15 it's a good process, and we've got -- the nice thing
16 about it is, is that we've got the log in place on your
17 current license that you will be issued by Worldcom.
18 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: But does that
19 satisfy the data gap, so to speak, if we were to go
20 tagless?
21 MR. COOK: I don't think -- I don't think
22 the log on the back necessarily satisfies the data gap.
23 The -- some sort of resource document would have to do
24 that to satisfy the data gap. There are other ways to
25 get that same data.
.
42
1 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: I'm sold on the
2 convenience of the tagless. I'm just concerned about
3 the data gap and the --
4 MR. COOKE: I understand.
5 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: -- on the
6 enforcement.
7 MR. COOK: We will have to enforce
8 it.
9 MR. COOKE: Great. As I said, the use of
10 the resource document satisfied our concerns for being
11 able to identify an unattended carcass.
12 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: I think it's
13 progress in the right direction.
14 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Thank you,
15 Jerry. Any other questions or comments on the issue of
16 alternative licensing rules? If there are no further
17 questions, without objection, I will place this item on
18 the Thursday Commission meeting agenda for public
19 comment and action. Thank you, Jerry.
20 Next, John Herron up with nongame
21 commercial permit regulation.
22 MR. HERRON: Good morning. Madam
23 Chairman and Commissioners, my name is John Herron, and
24 I am the branch chief for the Wildlife Diversity Branch
25 and Wildlife Division. Pleased to be here today to
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43
1 brief the Commission on two different regulatory actions
2 that are combined under this one agenda item. The
3 first -- there we go. The first item is a relatively
4 simple one. We are proposing to change our regulations
5 to allow individuals to temporarily possess and move
6 threatened and endangered species when those species are
7 threatened by construction, right-of-way maintenance, or
8 similar activities. We've had many requests for this
9 kind of authorization but currently do not have a permit
10 that covers the activity. The amendment that we're
11 proposing would allow the department to authorize
12 possession and temporary -- temporary possession and
13 transport of these animals by letter, avoiding the need
14 for a permit. And it would also give us the discretion
15 to determine when to issue that letter based on the
16 qualification of the individual at hand.
17 One thing I would note, too, is this is
18 really only a state permit we'd be doing. If the
19 individual is involved in relocating a federally
20 endangered species, it would also have to have the
21 appropriate federal permit, as well. In any event,
22 fairly simple proposal.
23 The second proposal, I wish it was as
24 simple. This one is going to be more complex and it
25 concerns our nongame commercial permits. These are
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44
1 regulations that were approved back in 1998 and became
2 effect in 1999. And we are proposing -- well, we've
3 committed to that time to come to the Commission three
4 years later and to revise these regulations as needed.
5 It was really a pilot, seeing if we could get a handle
6 on the collection and commercial sell of a number of
7 nongame species. My briefing today to you also includes
8 some changes we're recommending from what was originally
9 published in the Texas Register.
10 There we go. Overall, the permitting
11 system we have in place for nongame has been a
12 tremendous success. We had a lot of controversy, and we
13 established this three years ago. I think everybody
14 we're permitting now is very much in support of the
15 system. And the concerns they all have did not come to
16 pass. We now have a better handle on how many people
17 are involved in the collection and sale of these nongame
18 species, as this table shows. And numbers have remained
19 fairly constant, although we are seeing an increased
20 number of dealers who are purchasing permits.
21 We also better understand what species
22 are now commonly on trade. On this slide, I'm showing
23 the top three species that were reported to us over the
24 past three years, Black-tailed Prairie Dog, Texas spiny
25 soft-shell turtle, and the Western diamondback
.
45
1 rattlesnakes. All three of these species, we had
2 reported sales, for the first two, of between 50 and 60
3 thousand animals in the three-year period. For
4 rattlesnakes, somewhere around 30,000 animals during the
5 three year period. So a significant occurring in these.
6 And each case is different. We have the pet trade for
7 the first, the Asian food market in the second, and then
8 the Rattlesnake Roundup phenomena for the third. We had
9 19 species overall where there were reports of
10 collection and sale of 2000 or more individuals during
11 that three-year period. So, as I said, we have a much
12 better handle. And it has helped us address the
13 concerns the public has expressed on commercial take.
14 Particularly, turtle trade, rattlesnake roundups, and
15 the pet prairie doing trade.
16 The changes we're proposing from our
17 current regulation, basically, is, currently we require
18 people to have a permit if they possess ten or more of a
19 species, we're going to increase that to 25 specimens.
20 Basically, the requirement would be that, if you are
21 taking any of the listed animals for commercial purposes
22 or possessing 25 or more, you would have to have one of
23 these permits. We're reducing the number of species
24 affected by this regulation from 210 nongame species to
25 40, which we think is a significant simplification. The
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46
1 data we collected has allowed us to see where trade is
2 significant and to reduce the scope of this regulation
3 to really where we think we need to focus.
4 We're reducing the reporting requirement.
5 Now requiring only dealers to submit an annual report
6 rather than both collectors and dealers. We found that
7 we're really getting the information we need from the
8 dealers alone. There's no sense to inconvenience the
9 collectors just to basically collect what's duplicate
10 data. We're also proposing for the first time to
11 prohibit certain means and methods of take. I'll go
12 into that in more detail shortly. Then we're also
13 clarifying that anybody who collects for commercial
14 export also needs a permit, even if they're not selling
15 within Texas. If they're collecting in Texas with the
16 intent to sell out of state, they have to have this
17 permit.
18 A few minor changes, too. There's been
19 some public confusion about the way the regulation was
20 worded. We're going to try and simplify our
21 terminology, basically, referring to the two permits.
22 The first is the nongame permit, the second the dealer's
23 nongame permit. This is a minor change from what was
24 published in Texas register where we proposed the first
25 one to be called a nongame commercial permit. That
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47
1 still seemed to be causing confusion, so we've just
2 eliminated the word commercial from it. We're
3 clarifying what the two -- differences are between the
4 two permits. Basically, only dealers can sell these
5 animals to the public. And people have the nongame can
6 only sell to dealers, kind of a tiered system. We're
7 also clarifying the fact that individuals who collect --
8 we currently have an exemption for processed products.
9 We're saying now that individuals who collect and
10 process those animals themselves before a sell would
11 still need a permit. In the case of someone, for
12 example, collecting rattlesnakes, turning them into hat
13 fans and leather products. They would still have to
14 have a permit.
15 In regards to means and methods, we're
16 proposing to prohibit the use of vacuum-powered devices,
17 and, specifically, this addresses little prairie dogs
18 for the pet trade. As the picture shows -- my picture
19 changed. Anyway, on the left, it basically shows a
20 vacuum device on a tractor. And the reason we propose
21 this initially was that this was originally prohibited
22 by the U.S. Department of Agriculture as means of take.
23 And we had some inconsistencies between state law and
24 federal law. We proposed this in order to be
25 consistent. But since then, the USDA has changed their
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48
1 rules and are now allowing the use of vacuum devices in
2 a case-by-case basis. Nonetheless, our concern really
3 with this is the fact that it's a nonspecific means of
4 take. Not only are they taking prairie dogs out of
5 those burrows, but they are potentially taking protected
6 burrowing owls and other species. Basically, there's
7 nontarget effects or, as we were talking in a meeting a
8 few days, bycatch might be the proper term to use here.
9 So that's really what our concern is. I will point out,
10 we've had a lot of public comment on this issue. And I
11 expect we will have people showing up tomorrow to
12 testify on this. I've had about 45 e-mails supporting
13 the ban on vacuum devices. And one dealer who uses
14 vacuum devices who opposes that change.
15 Other changes we're also now requiring
16 that traps must be tagged. In our draft regulation that
17 we published we proposed this only be on unattended
18 traps. Since then, based on public comment, we're
19 proposing that all traps must be tagged, not just
20 unattended trapping nongame species. Also, we're
21 requiring that turtle traps must be have an opening
22 above the water in order to prevent the drowning of
23 turtles that are caught.
24 I mentioned we're changing reporting
25 requirements. We are now requiring dealers to include
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1 the permit number of the individual that they buy from.
2 We're changing the reporting period because we were
3 having a problem with the overlapping of the reporting
4 period ending after people had to renew their permits.
5 So we're now moving up the period of reporting, making
6 them due August 15th.
7 We're also going to require that people
8 maintain their records for two years. Again, this is a
9 minor change from what we published in the draft. We
10 had originally said one year. But then we realized
11 that, by moving up the reporting data, there is some
12 overlap and we really need dealers to keep two years of
13 records so we can be certain what happened during that
14 August/September time period.
15 As I mentioned the number of species
16 affected, we're reducing from 210 to 40, really focusing
17 on those species that we think we need data on
18 concerning commercial collection and sale. And one note
19 I wanted to make in terms of the species list is we have
20 removed bats from the list. They were on the list
21 before. But at the last legislative session, the
22 legislature passed a law protecting bats. So we can now
23 remove them from this list because take is no longer
24 allowed for commercial purposes.
25 Okay. I've got some long, several slides
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1 here, but I just want to sure the Commission was aware
2 of what species we are proposing to keep on this list.
3 I won't go over this in great detail. Basically, we are
4 seeing significant trade in toads and box turtles, as
5 well as a number of aquatic turtles. And these being
6 largely collected for sale overseas as part of the food
7 market. Several lizards, as well as rattlesnakes, Jack
8 rabbits and prairie dogs. We are proposing some changes
9 to the list that we published in the Texas Register
10 based on public comment. We are proposing to drop these
11 species from the list, as well. They're abundant
12 species, and we felt there really was no -- no need for
13 us to track collection of them.
14 Also, based on public comment, we
15 requested to retain some species on the list.
16 Basically, it was suggested to us that, if we're going
17 to keep a few -- the major aquatic turtles on the list,
18 that we should also keep those turtles on the list that
19 are similar to them in order to avoid people shifting
20 from harvesting one species going to an unregulated
21 species. And so, basically, these are closely related
22 species. It would just allow us some consistency in
23 making sure there's no shift in commercial trade or
24 reporting. And, again, these are all aquatic turtles.
25 Also, the diamondback terrapin, which is a species of
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1 concern. The spadefoot toad, again, similarity to
2 another toad we have on the list. And then, similarly,
3 it was recommend that if we're keeping diamondback --
4 Western diamondback rattlesnakes on the list, that we
5 should keep all the rattlesnakes on the list. Again, in
6 order to assure that there is not a shift in harvest
7 from one species group to another.
8 With this, I'd be happy to answer any
9 questions the Commission may have.
10 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Mr. Herron, has the
11 data that you've been able to obtain so far given you
12 any cause for concern about the numbers of any of these
13 species that are being trapped and traded and sold or
14 whatever.
15 MR. HERRON: Well, the challenge we have
16 in the nongame business is unlike the game management.
17 Unfortunately, we don't have good population data on
18 most of these species. So we're now getting good
19 harvest area. At least, human harvest. It doesn't tell
20 us what other mortality factors are. But, yeah, I think
21 so. And I think the one group of -- species group of
22 concern we've talked about the most are the box turtles.
23 Most other states prohibit the sale of box turtles. If
24 you go to most of the eastern states, their populations
25 have been decimated to the fact the situation where many
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1 of these states now list them as threatened and
2 endangered species. Our best guess is that we still
3 have abundant numbers of box turtles. But I think if we
4 were going to come at some point and request further
5 restriction on the take, box turtles would probably be
6 the first category we would.
7 We even debated this with -- I do have an
8 ad hoc advisory committee of permittees that assisted me
9 with this. And we had some discussions of this over the
10 past months. Well, if we were going to do it, how would
11 we do it? Would we have a slot limit? Would it be
12 prohibiting sell? Adults versus young? We really
13 didn't figure out a way to do it effectively, and we're
14 not that concerned at this point. But I would think
15 that's going to be the first species group. Secondly,
16 it would probably be the aquatic turtles. But, again,
17 they seem to be an abundant species. We're a big state
18 with a lot of public waters. We're not overly concerned
19 about the take of those, but we think it still merits us
20 to monitor harvest.
21 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: I want to also take
22 this opportunity to, John, to complement you and your
23 staff on the way you've handled this. I remember the
24 '98 meeting, and there was a lot of controversy about
25 it. There were a lot of unhappy people. You've done a
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1 good job of getting the constituency satisfied with what
2 you're doing. And you've also done what you promised,
3 and that's coming back and simplifying it and reducing
4 it. And I think you and your group need to be
5 complemented for that.
6 MR. HERRON: I appreciate that.
7 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: A job well done.
8 MR. HERRON: I'll pass it on to them.
9 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Commissioner
10 Ramos?
11 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: This may be a very
12 insignificant point, but on proposal one where you issue
13 the permit for the relocation of the species, do we
14 dictate, or do we control where that animal will then be
15 released?
16 MR. HERRON: Yes, sir. As part of that,
17 one of the conditions we basically have is that they can
18 only move them a short distance. The intent is that,
19 for example, if a power line right-of-way is going
20 through or a pipeline, that they be able to take those
21 animals and relocate them. Generally, we're talking in
22 the order of a few hundred yards. So it's not like
23 moving them from one county to another. The fact of the
24 matter is, you know, those people -- that construction
25 foreman, as soon as he or she goes and picks up a Texas
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1 tortoise and picks it up to move it, really they're in
2 violation of the law. So, yes, we do have that
3 condition included in the letter that we're proposing.
4 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: So that -- in other
5 words, they would be prohibited from taking it, let's
6 say, home or whatever.
7 MR. HERRON: Yes, sir.
8 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Okay. Thank you.
9 John, to follow up on
10 Commissioner Angelo's comments, I also wanted to
11 complement you. I remember -- I was not on commission
12 at the time, but I remember the hearings on this. And
13 you handled a difficult situation well. It seems that
14 now we're finally get something data on some of these
15 species. Can you make a distinction between those that
16 are being harvested for the hobby trade, if that's the
17 right term, and those for food, commercial food
18 purposes?
19 MR. HERRON: Yes. And I think the way
20 we've been able to distinguish that is actually -- a
21 benefit of this permitting system has been we're having
22 much better dialogue with those people who are involved
23 in the commercial business. And I don't want to call it
24 hearsay because it's more than that. But in that
25 dialogue, you know, we do have people telling us -- for
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1 example, we were just talking to about the yellow mud
2 turtle, which is a pet animal, not a food trade. And
3 although numbers are low, basically, the dealers are
4 telling us, this is becoming a very popular animal.
5 Fortunately, it's a very abundant animal, as well.
6 Stock tanks and stuff. So through that dialogue, we are
7 getting an idea of which of these are collected for food
8 and which of these are collected for pets. And, again,
9 you know, really it's the turtles that -- the aquatic
10 turtles that are being sought in large numbers to
11 satisfy that food market for turtle meat, turtle soup,
12 and those types of things.
13 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Do you feel
14 like you have good idea about compliance if -- with the
15 regs because that follow-up --
16 MR. HERRON: That's a very good question.
17 We have seen -- we have had concerns, minor concerns
18 over reporting. Generally, we're seeing anywhere from,
19 oh, 90 percent compliance. And we have people who buy
20 permits who neglect to send a report. Through
21 discussion, generally, it appears that these are people
22 who bought the permit but ended up never dealing or
23 collecting. And one of the reasons we wanted to
24 simplify this is to make it more worth our while to
25 actually do follow up on them. Because we now know if
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1 this regulation passes that these are species we are
2 vitally interested in, and that it would be appropriate
3 to go do some more follow up with them. We have had
4 discussions with people who are doing this without the
5 proper permits. I think we have very good compliance
6 with the dealers, because much like a lot of this
7 business, our best policing comes internally. And if
8 one dealer is aware of somebody else who is in the
9 business and doesn't have a permit, they will report
10 them. I think our compliance -- the reason we're seeing
11 more dealer permits being bought is because compliance
12 is increasing. Overall, it seems pretty good.
13 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Good. Thank
14 you. Any other questions? Comments?
15 Thank you, John.
16 If there are no further questions or
17 discussion, without objection, I'll place this item on
18 the Thursday Commission meeting agenda for public
19 comments and action. And that being our final item on
20 the agenda, is there any other business to come before
21 the regulations committee? There being none, we will
22 adjourn at 10:10. Madam Chair?
23 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Thank you,
24 Commissioner Fitzsimons.
25 (HEARING ADJOURNED)
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1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
2 STATE OF TEXAS )
3 COUNTY OF TRAVIS )
4
5 I, SHANA R. WISE, a Certified Court Reporter in and
6 for the State of Texas, do hereby certify that the
7 foregoing pages constitute a full, true, and correct
8 transcript of the minutes of the Texas Parks and
9 Wildlife Commission on August 28, 2002 in the Commission
10 Hearing Room of the Texas Parks and Wildlife
11 Headquarters Complex, Austin, Travis County, Texas.
12 I FURTHER CERTIFY that the proceedings of said
13 public meeting were reported by me and accurately
14 reduced to typewriting under my supervision and control.
15 WITNESS MY HAND this the 21st day of October, 2002.
16
17
18 SHANA R. WISE, CSR NO. 6642
Expiration Date: 12-31-02
19 7800 IH 10 West
Suite 100
20 San Antonio, Texas 78230
(210) 377-3027
21
22 EBS NO. 133345
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