Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission
Outreach and Education Committee
November 7, 2001
Commission Hearing RoomTexas Parks & Wildlife Department Headquarters Complex
4200 Smith School Road
Austin, TX 78744
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6
7 BE IT REMEMBERED that heretofore on the
8 7TH day of NOVEMBER 2001, there came on to be
9 heard matters under the regulatory authority of
10 the Parks and Wildlife Commission of Texas, in
11 the commission hearing room of the Texas Parks and
12 Wildlife Headquarters complex, Austin, Travis
13 County, Texas, beginning at 4:36 p.m., to wit:
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15
16
APPEARANCES:
17 THE PARKS AND WILDLIFE COMMISSION:
OUTREACH AND EDUCATION COMMITTEE:
18 Chair: Katharine Armstrong Idsal, San Antonio, Texas
Ernest Angelo, Jr., Midland, Texas
19 John Avila, Jr., Fort Worth, Texas
Carol E. Dinkins, Houston, Texas (absent)
20 Joseph Fitzsimons, San Antonio, Texas
Alvin L. Henry, Houston, Texas
21 (Committee Chair)
Philip Montgomery, III, Dallas, Texas
22 Donato D. Ramos, Laredo, Texas
Mark E. Watson, Jr., San Antonio, Texas
23 (absent)
24 THE PARKS AND WILDLIFE DEPARTMENT:
Andrew H. Sansom, Executive Director, and
25 other personnel of the Parks and Wildlife
Department.
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1 NOVEMBER 7, 2001
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3 OUTREACH AND EDUCATION COMMITTEE MEETING
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5 CHAIRMAN HENRY: We would like to
6 get approval for the main minutes that were not
7 approved at our last meeting. All for those for
8 approval.
9 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Move approval.
10 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Second.
11 CHAIRMAN HENRY: All in favor?
12 Opposed? Thank you. Andy, chairman's charges.
13 AGENDA ITEM NO. 1: BRIEFING - CHAIRMAN'S
14 CHARGES.
15 MR. SANSOM: Mr. Chairman, I have no
16 comments on the charges at this time.
17 CHAIRMAN HENRY: Thank you very
18 much. Steve, are you going to kick us off --
19 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Are we on the
20 chairman's charges yet? Have we just done that?
21 CHAIRMAN HENRY: Yes.
22 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Can I make a -- Mr.
23 Chairman?
24 CHAIRMAN HENRY: Yes.
25 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: I wanted to make a
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1 note at this point that I have formed an advisory
2 committee, education and outreach advisory
3 committee, to assist Mr. Henry in his full
4 committee of education and outreach. And we are
5 currently appointing members to that. And with
6 Mr. Henry's help and others, I think, you know,
7 within a very short period of time we'll have a
8 strong committee to help in his efforts and the
9 efforts of the full commission.
10 CHAIRMAN HENRY: Thank you.
11 AGENDA ITEM NO. 2: BRIEFING - OUTDOOR KIDS
12 ADVENTURE AND OUTDOOR KIDS CHALLENGE.
13 MR. HALL: Mr. Chairman and members
14 of the committee, my name is Steve Hall. I'm the
15 education and outreach director. And today I've
16 got a couple of short briefings, mostly to
17 describe different programs, education and
18 outreach programs that are going on for your
19 information and for your benefit, and to highlight
20 some of the best practices of education and
21 outreach as we go forth with the sunset committee
22 charges.
23 The first is the Outdoor Kids
24 Adventure and Outdoor Kids Challenge. This was a
25 project that we brought to Expo 2001. The
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1 challenge and -- or the adventure and the
2 challenge were two pilot projects of trying to get
3 more inner city kids involved at Expo, at least
4 bring them to Expo. And this was from a statewide
5 perspective.
6 The result was over 2000 visitors,
7 most from Houston, but also from Dallas,
8 San Antonio, and Laredo. And some of them were
9 long-standing partners, especially from Houston,
10 such as the Nature Heritage Society and Buffalo
11 Soldiers Hunting and Fishing Club and Stephen F.
12 Austin High School, long-standing partners. But
13 what was also exciting was some of the new
14 partners that we were able to reach for this
15 effort, certainly church groups in this outreach
16 center. And one of the more exciting ones was the
17 Monica Lamb Wellness Foundation. She personally
18 brought 38 individuals from Houston. And I'll
19 describe that a little bit later on.
20 Some of the San Antonio partners
21 certainly included the parks and rec departments;
22 again, schools, churches, and different other
23 entities that are certainly new groups that we've
24 reached with outreach just in this short pilot
25 project.
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1 Dallas partners, same schools, parks
2 and rec. And thanks to Commissioner Ramos, a
3 Laredo partner, the Laredo Parks and Rec
4 Department also attended. I'd like to thank
5 certainly Chairman Henry and also Commissioner
6 Ramos and the rest of you that personally
7 contributed to this. Without the sponsorships
8 that you raised, this obviously wouldn't have been
9 possible.
10 The supporting partners were the big
11 three of Parks and Wildlife Foundation of Texas,
12 Monica Lamb Wellness Foundation certainly helped
13 out in Houston, and then the Parks and Wildlife
14 Department education and outreach efforts.
15 The promotional event held in
16 Houston was the Outdoor Kids Expo with Monica
17 Lamb. It was a pre-Expo event that we had two
18 missions there. One was to promote Texas wildlife
19 expo in the statewide effort, but also to create a
20 local expo, if you will, to interest, obviously,
21 inner city kids at MacGregor Park.
22 We estimate about 800 participated,
23 and this was with a huge rainstorm the morning,
24 that Saturday. So I think we were successful in
25 at least attracting crowds despite the weather
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1 conditions.
2 You can see the five types of
3 activities that were the main events held. And
4 certainly these were a taster of what they
5 experienced at Texas Wildlife Expo. It costs
6 quite a bit to get 2,000 kids and family members
7 to Expo, most of which was transportation cost --
8 half of which was transportation cost, and the
9 rest in food and tee shirts. I think tee shirts
10 was important. If you saw the kids at Expo, it
11 kind of gives them identity, and obviously some
12 excitement to bring back to their local community
13 that wouldn't otherwise be there, when they wear
14 their shirts around the community.
15 The direct cost was figured at $18
16 per individual. And based on other outreach types
17 of models and projects, this is actually very
18 reasonable cost. And it's going to be that kind
19 of cost to get down and dirty and to really reach
20 customers that we know otherwise do not reach.
21 The challenge we held at Expo
22 also -- and this combined several of the last
23 activities of Expo, the poster poetry and essay
24 contest, kind of with the scout activities check
25 list. It combined the benefits or the aspects of
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1 both of those projects. And we created
2 essentially an opportunity for kids to participate
3 in a well-rounded group of activities, get
4 signatures from different folks that sponsored the
5 different events at Expo, and then essentially rip
6 off this card and throw it in one of three
7 buckets; the camping, the hunting, and the fishing
8 bucket. This is where we were able to award them
9 a grand prize -- grand prizes following Expo.
10 The camping included camping gear,
11 TCP passport for five years, and waived fees at
12 state parks. And then the hunting and fishing
13 also included a lifetime hunting and fishing
14 license, the gear, and guided trips. We selected
15 individuals after Expo's 200 -- 2,230 participants
16 threw their name in the buckets, of which about
17 half were camping and the other half hunting and
18 fishing. And we awarded six lucky winners the
19 camping, hunting, and fishing prizes. And all can
20 partake in those prizes. And I think it's going
21 to be kind of a nice little recognition of the
22 outdoor kids challenge.
23 Our future plans are to certainly go
24 after and really pursue local outdoor kid
25 adventures similar to the one we held in Houston.
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1 I think bringing outdoor expo to the inner cities
2 is one strategy, and then certainly recognizing
3 those partners at our main expo. And that's the
4 strategy that we'd like to undertake in the
5 future. Continue the outdoor kids challenge, just
6 to grow that one out.
7 As you know, expo is one of those
8 growth projects, you start small and you grow it
9 out. And I think outdoor kids challenge certainly
10 has a potential for reaching an enormous amount of
11 kids, up to ten to 12,000 kids at Expo 2001.
12 And with that, I'd handle any
13 questions on these two mini outreach events.
14 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: What's
15 your goal on timetable for rolling out the outdoor
16 challenge to other cities?
17 MR. HALL: The outdoor adventure or
18 the -- I would think that's ongoing. We --
19 actually, now we participate in numerous outreach
20 events all over the state, and I think it's just
21 the way we package it. We come as divisions or we
22 come as programs or we come as entities, like Sea
23 Center Texas. But we don't come as the outdoor
24 kids adventure.
25 I think one strategy is to package
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1 ourselves as an agency at already existing events,
2 such as we attend a lot of festivals, boat shows.
3 You know, anything that we go to, we could
4 probably package ourselves a whole lot better as
5 outdoor kids or outdoor kids adventures. We
6 participate in Safety Days, Bandera Fest for
7 Hunters last Friday night. Casts for Teachers.
8 So these are ongoing activities. That's one
9 strategy.
10 And the next one is to create these
11 outdoor expos through our regional coordinators in
12 Dallas, San Antonio, and Houston, initially.
13 Houston gave us the start on that. I think we can
14 easily do one in San Antonio and Dallas, kind of a
15 pre-fall promotion of wildlife expo, but certainly
16 to host this mini expo in those three cities next
17 year, and then grow it out from there.
18 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: I just
19 think Dallas and Houston are both so far from
20 here, it's hard to get -- in spite of super human
21 effort, to get future numbers here, and then
22 you've got Lubbock, Amarillo, and El Paso all with
23 fairly large populations. And to me, it would be
24 nice to have a goal, get whatever -- however
25 you're going to target, whether it's participating
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1 in other events or doing one of our own.
2 Something like that.
3 MR. HALL: We're poised right now to
4 certainly do the big three cities, but certainly
5 will try to investigate Laredo and Lubbock, as
6 well. To try to get a little bit more statewide
7 exposure but we're definitely poised to do the
8 three big cities for the next expo.
9 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Have any of
10 these programs focused on the disadvantaged
11 specifically the handicapped and people that may
12 not have the physical ability, perhaps, to travel
13 to where we go out to them?
14 MR. HALL: Not with the Outdoor Kids
15 Adventure, but certainly that would be a nice
16 goal. We've done certainly a lot of efforts with
17 P.O.I.N.T., and we've undertaken an agreement also
18 with the National Wild Turkey Federation's wheel
19 and sportsmans program. And we're going to get
20 better at dealing with -- or targeting groups,
21 people with disabilities and these kinds of
22 things.
23 And we've worked on trails that
24 Scott mentioned, specifically the Brazos Bend
25 State Park Trail, with, you know, interpretive
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1 services, including for the blind and for the
2 deaf, et cetera. But I think we could probably do
3 a little better job at the adventure in trying to
4 attract people with disabilities by simply working
5 with our known partners; like P.O.I.N.T. and also
6 trying to scrape and scratch out new partners.
7 And I can think of three; St. David's, Houston
8 Rehabilitation Center -- and these are already
9 partners of ours, but we probably need to
10 aggressively ask them to participate in something
11 like an adventure.
12 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Like in Laredo,
13 I know the -- we, as attorneys in the Laredo Bar
14 Association, would sponsor a fishing outing for
15 those with disabilities there at Lake Casa Blanca.
16 It's a very, very big success.
17 CHAIRMAN HENRY: There were a few
18 kids, if I may, with various disabilities who came
19 in with these groups. I know San Antonio, for
20 example, with Bobby Barrera, when I got on the
21 bus, there were several kids there who had some
22 disabilities. I noticed a couple from Houston,
23 even -- although that was not, as far as I know --
24 and I'm sure it wasn't -- the intent to go out and
25 seek out handicapped kids. It's an excellent
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1 idea.
2 One of the things that has been
3 mentioned in the advisory -- Expo advisory
4 committee has to do with the questions that you're
5 raising relative to the spreading of these
6 efforts. And it looks like initially it -- in the
7 near future, it will probably be in terms of mini
8 expos.
9 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: I can't
10 imagine --
11 CHAIRMAN HENRY: This one is just
12 too big to move around and get all the sponsors
13 together. Let me just -- Madam Chairman, just say
14 one other -- make one other comment. This was an
15 effort that really got steamrolled. A lot of
16 people have given me the credit for the idea. The
17 idea wasn't mine. I picked up on it very quickly.
18 And I want to thank Ernie Angelo
19 publicly for his advice and support. Ernie was
20 one of the people who mentioned the whole idea of
21 packaging support for the kids to get them here.
22 And that turned out to be very successful, Ernie
23 and Phil and Lee and Perry Bass and Tim Hixon and
24 several others contributed to it.
25 But already that day of Expo, as I
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1 was moving around, a number of people said to me
2 that they thought this was worthy of duplicating
3 and growing next year, and have already said that
4 they plan to assist in making it bigger in other
5 areas.
6 There's one thing -- and I -- I hope
7 you won't tell them. It will embarrass them. As
8 we were greeting the buses, Andy and I, that were
9 coming with kids, when the San Antonio group came
10 with Bobby Barrera, that's something I'll never
11 forget as long as I live, Bobby got off the bus.
12 And he said come and welcome the kids, and we did.
13 I saw him reach into a bag and take
14 out a big package of $10 bills. And we couldn't
15 imagine -- I know somebody said, "Bobby, you
16 getting ready to have a crap game or something?"
17 90 kids got off those two buses. And as each kid
18 sat on the expo bus, he said, "No, I'm going to
19 give this to the kids." I said, "Bobby, you know,
20 we're paying for the tee shirts and the lunch, so
21 you don't need to." He said, "Well, you know, we
22 just decided we would give the kids a little
23 something extra so they would have some money to
24 spend during the day." He gave each one of those
25 kids a brand-new $10 bill. And I just sat there
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1 amazed.
2 And I saw Roy the following Monday,
3 and said, "Thank you, old man, for submitting the
4 money." But I saw other acts of generosity and
5 kindness like that during the day that were very
6 encouraging, and already the wheels in motion, I
7 know in some cases, to duplicate and magnify that
8 effort in different ways next time around.
9 And I'm very grateful for it and I
10 appreciate everyone's help.
11 MR. HALL: I would also like to
12 recognize Bob Murphy, the outreach coordinator for
13 coordinating the event and working with Mr. Henry
14 on that.
15 CHAIRMAN HENRY: Where is Bob? I
16 was going to ask that.
17 MR. HALL: Bob had a sick child and
18 had to scoot home. He would have been here.
19 CHAIRMAN HENRY: He did a fine job
20 of coordinating, in particular, our regional
21 coordinators.
22 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: How do you
23 strategically link the kids' program with the
24 flattened growth in hunting and fishing license
25 sales? Do we have a kind of measure or objective
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1 there of how we're treating this also, not only as
2 a education device but a marking device in trying
3 to build our consumer population, build our
4 constituency? Can we measure it in any way?
5 MR. HALL: Well, that's a really
6 great question because I would have to say we
7 really don't effectively. We're going to try to
8 get at that in terms of the sunset charges. I've
9 appointed Nancy Herron of my staff to try to
10 figure out the effectiveness, not only of our
11 programs in our outreach efforts, which is a huge
12 task because no one has nationally had really
13 gotten a great handle on that, but certainly I
14 think we've got some tools and people and programs
15 in place to do it. But more toward your question,
16 I think that linking with our license databases.
17 For example, I mean, for the first time, we've
18 linked hunter education with our hunting license
19 sales.
20 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: So the
21 hunter safety course, you can link to that --
22 MR. HALL: Yeah, for the first time
23 we have the capability. And I think that's what
24 the key is, is all that infrastructure of hooking
25 up databases. I think that we've operated by and
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1 large separate databases in terms of education and
2 outreach efforts.
3 And I think the key will be to link
4 with the rest of our agency or the rest of our
5 divisions to try to get at just even the
6 demography of how many kids are interested in the
7 outdoors or -- you know, you heard about how many
8 kids think whitetail deer species are endangered.
9 Of course, there's a trick in that question. But
10 nonetheless, we've participated with like Billy
11 Higginbotham with this whitetail deer module that
12 goes around to the schools. And that's probably
13 one of the best tools that I know of to get at
14 attitudes of kids and then their interest in the
15 outdoors.
16 But it's kind of a pre and a post
17 situation, and it's only a short term. Certainly,
18 Robert Denton and some of the guys that did
19 long-term studies of anglers, that methodology
20 ought to be used in education and outreach
21 efforts, as well.
22 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: As a
23 matter of strategy, I would like to see us somehow
24 define some of the goals as being a catalyst to
25 cause kids to go out and pursue these activities
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1 in a continuing way, not just in a one-time great
2 event way, but not to demean them. You've got to
3 start there. But just to kind of take a strategic
4 view of it, and then to be able to quantify that
5 over time.
6 But I think if we set the objective
7 on how to get them and induce the activity, we
8 start focusing on the parents, you know, how do
9 you go fishing, you know, six steps to go fishing
10 that the parents can take. Just I'm sure there's
11 a lot of things we'll start thinking of or you've
12 probably thought of, but I'm just not aware of,
13 but --
14 MR. HALL: Yeah. I think what's
15 exciting is for the first time, I think we have a
16 lot of components in place as an agency and we can
17 begin to do some of those kinds of things.
18 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: And also
19 being in the liaison of the foundation, I
20 encourage you not to feel limited by money. I
21 think there's a lot of sponsorship money for the
22 kind of thing you're doing. I mean, it's just
23 wildly successful.
24 And so I would encourage you to
25 think in terms of objectives and target markets of
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1 targeted activity, and let's -- we'll have so
2 money to spend, but I think if we lay out a plan
3 and a strategy and a goal, we can probably raise a
4 fair amount of money to support and expand those
5 activities, if we put our minds to it and we have
6 a clear goal.
7 I think we've got -- you know, we
8 all know we've got to address the lack of growth
9 of our constituencies during the lack of
10 connection, people have an increasing lack of
11 connection for the outdoors. So you've got a big
12 job.
13 MR. HALL: Well, that whole outdoor
14 kids -- and I have to thank our marketing efforts,
15 as well. The outdoor kids logo, the icon, the
16 excitement around outdoor kids, I think, helps us
17 package our agency a lot better with respect to
18 youth. So we're going to jump behind that one and
19 hopefully steamroll.
20 CHAIRMAN HENRY: Why don't you just
21 continue, since you're there.
22 AGENDA ITEM NO. 3: BRIEFING - HUNTER
23 EDUCATION.
24 MR. HALL: Okay. Next, I'd like to
25 call up Terry Erwin, who is our hunter education
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1 coordinator. I want to introduce you all to
2 Terry. He does the hunter education program
3 coordination day to day. And the next briefing is
4 about hunter education, the 30 years, kind of
5 where we've been, where we are, and where we're
6 heading. I'll try to make it quick as possible so
7 we don't run out of too much time here.
8 Again, the program in Texas is 30
9 years and growing. I'd like to mention that
10 hunter education in North America, the first
11 mandatory program was actually in 1949, so the
12 institution of hunter education is well over 50
13 years old. The purpose is to promote safe,
14 responsible, knowledgeable involved hunting and
15 shooting practices. And the benefits, of course,
16 are things like reduced hunting accidents, reduced
17 violations, the improved image of hunters and
18 hunting, which is all too important, and then
19 certainly increased hunting opportunities,
20 especially for you.
21 We work under an umbrella of the
22 International Hunter Education Association.
23 That's a professional organization comprised of
24 all states, provinces, and even Mexico, and a few
25 foreign countries. They operate under IHA
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1 standards that they developed for hunter
2 education. And most of today's standards are a
3 minimum two-day, ten-hour curriculum; but mostly
4 they are based on learning objectives and
5 knowledges and skills.
6 The course topics that are covered
7 in hunter education are vast and varied.
8 Certainly hunter safety and responsibilities are
9 the core, but things like outdoor skills and
10 ethics and wildlife management, those kinds of
11 things certainly bring the package together in a
12 nice way for this agency.
13 Some of the highlights over the 30
14 years that we've been in existence, we did start
15 the voluntary effort in 1971. This was primarily
16 to certify Texans going out of state to try to
17 comply with other states' laws. Passage of the
18 mandatory statute in 1987 which gave it the zeal
19 to get kids into the -- at that time into the
20 courses.
21 To date, we've certified 600,000
22 students. That's, you know, a lot of effort
23 obviously with an average 14-hour course. And we
24 are in the high schools in the ag science
25 curriculum, which has been a great thing for both
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1 of us. They improved their -- they upped their
2 enrollment. And we were able to get into the
3 school system with what we feel obviously is a
4 valuable program. We have trained about 10,000
5 instructors since 1972, and obviously that takes a
6 lot of effort, as well. The effort that they give
7 back as volunteers is well over $500,000 of in
8 kind service each year; and that can't be taken
9 lightly, obviously.
10 The mandatory law, Texas is unique.
11 We're the most flexible law in the country. We're
12 the only one to give a five-year window of
13 opportunity for somebody to find, take, and pass
14 the course. That's been a real -- in retrospect,
15 that's been a real great thing. In fact, other
16 states are now clamoring to figure out how they
17 can re-invent their statutes to give it a phase-in
18 approach.
19 When I worked in Colorado, to work
20 behind the desk before the hunting season, was
21 like holding a gun to your head. I mean, there
22 were those pressures. I think Texas has
23 proactively gotten away from those kind of
24 pressures. Still, we have our challenges and I'll
25 go over those a little bit later on.
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1 But I think we're also a recruitment
2 tool. I think that we promote the fact that a
3 ten-year-old can go hunting, but has to be in the
4 guidance of that parent or mentor; and that's been
5 a good thing for us. But the law does affect
6 everyone born on or after September 2nd, 1971.
7 Over the years, the student numbers
8 have climbed. In fact, we've reached record
9 years, the last couple of years which is the good
10 news. There are some variables that are probably
11 factors in that, but I think things like marketing
12 and awareness have certainly helped us, but also
13 the hunting numbers and maybe even the increased
14 license sales and those kind of things. But we're
15 up to about an average of 34,000 students
16 annually.
17 And the hunting accident picture has
18 also reduced since the '60s. We've cut hunting
19 accidents in half, and that's both the injuries
20 and the fatalities. We've got some ways to go
21 yet. We feel that certainly that's a success
22 story in North America, the program.
23 Texas has taken the lead and Terry
24 has certainly taken the lead on several things, is
25 to try to improve the convenience and fun of
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1 courses, like developing home study and Internet
2 materials where they could receive the knowledge
3 objectives. And then to follow up the home study
4 and Internet materials with a hunter skills
5 course, which is a fun hands-on opportunity not
6 only to shoot firearms or sporting arms, but also
7 to be tested in the likes of a simulation trail,
8 which we call the "hunters safety trail."
9 We developed a brochure that helps
10 instructors to set those trails up. And certainly
11 we'd have our home study package that, in
12 partnership with Outdoor Life and Nevada Game and
13 Fish, that is being sold in Wal-Marts and the
14 point of sales in the main stores. These two
15 items have changed the face of hunter education
16 North America. And Terry and Nancy Herron on our
17 staff are leading a group internationally to
18 develop the same model in North America. So I
19 feel like we've got some leadership obviously
20 working at international level in that respect.
21 And certainly we want to tie it in
22 with our youth hunting program efforts with Texas
23 Wildlife Association and Jerry Warden, and we are
24 certainly well connected with their efforts in
25 trying to combine the two processes. And that's
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1 been, in our eyes, a large success.
2 Some added successes really quick.
3 Terry has submitted and has received for the
4 volunteer instructors in Texas nine runner-ups and
5 two winners of the North American Volunteer
6 Instructor of the Year. Obviously, that shows the
7 dedication and commitment and quality of the
8 instructors that we have here in Texas. We've
9 hosted two international conferences. We've been
10 president, vice-president of the international
11 association.
12 And Terry is -- departs tomorrow for
13 his 11th national dream hunt that he helps Wayne
14 Pearson host on ESPN. So that reaches a million
15 viewers at minimum. And certainly that's given
16 the program national exposure. He's also started
17 four Texas -- he's held four Texas dream hunts in
18 the model that the national produces. And, again,
19 those are kind of recognition opportunities,
20 whether they be in front of the media or on TV,
21 that gives the hunter education some exposure.
22 Our challenges and certainly our --
23 I think, our continued challenge has always been
24 and will probably be the course availability,
25 where and when people want hunter education. I
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1 mean, that's always a challenge, even if it's
2 somebody like last week getting on a plane heading
3 out and then needing the course at that point. We
4 also had an individual, believe it or not, fly a
5 jet plane to Houston this week from Nevada who
6 needed the course to hunt in New Mexico.
7 In Texas, I mean, it's kind of
8 bizarre, but that's the kind of pressures that we
9 deal with internationally, but also in Texas. So
10 our goal is to make it so convenient and so
11 accessible and available by county, and that's a
12 lofty goal and we're going it aim for that.
13 The big push this year will be the
14 increase of minorities and women as instructors,
15 as role models. I think our outdoor woman program
16 has given us a huge boost there. And certainly
17 working with P.O.I.N.T., our regional outreach
18 efforts are going to be big; these mini expos, if
19 you will, will be big to help us kind of reach
20 those people, anybody that is interested or takes
21 a keen interest in kids, but also has some kind of
22 a hunting prowess and educational mind-set.
23 And finally, the increased
24 recruitment into youth hunting opportunities. I
25 think we play a valuable role there. And I don't
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1 want to let that pass.
2 That's 30 years in a nutshell. I
3 know that went pretty quick. Certainly if Terry
4 or I can answer any questions, we would be happy
5 to do so.
6 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: One of the
7 details I've been amazed since coming on the
8 commission are the number of people that come up
9 to me and tell me they don't take their kids
10 hunting because of the time it takes for the
11 course. And it's no reflection on you, I think
12 it's an outstanding program. Sometime in the
13 first half of next year, can we have a briefing
14 from the point of view of the consumer of all the
15 ways you're going to hit that goal and make it
16 easy and convenient and still meet the legislative
17 objectives. Because the dramatic antidote, I'll
18 tell you very quickly, are a young woman who falls
19 under the deadline. She came up to me and said,
20 "Can I go out with my boyfriend when he is
21 hunting?" I said, "Yeah, but don't carry two
22 guns." I said, "Why don't you have a license?"
23 She said, "I'm getting married. I'm working. I
24 don't have this." She came to us from the CIA and
25 doesn't have a hunting license. But my point is,
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1 just story after story I've heard since coming on
2 the commission, I think we've got a real
3 challenge. I'd like to understand it better and
4 have the commission understand it better. And
5 really challenge you-all to find every way
6 conceivable to make this easy, quick and
7 deliverable. I know you're working on it and it's
8 not an easy one, but I think we've got to attack
9 that real hard. So you can add that to --
10 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: All you have to
11 do is go hunting with somebody with their son or
12 daughter that hasn't been through the course and
13 you don't want to do it again.
14 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: That is
15 the challenge. I've been on both sides. I get
16 the same complaints.
17 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: I mean, ten
18 hours isn't that long. I mean, really --
19 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Two days.
20 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: I'm for
21 the course. I just think we've got a real --
22 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Mr. Chairman, could
23 I ask Steve something?
24 CHAIRMAN HENRY: Please.
25 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: If I understand it
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1 correctly, we go through a two-day program in
2 order that our hunters can be certified in the
3 states, the adjoining states and other states. Is
4 there -- and I've heard this complaint myself.
5 All of a sudden this year, maybe the
6 things have kicked in, and all of a sudden
7 everybody is having to rush off to get their
8 children certified. And the complaints are just
9 pouring in, that try as you might to make this
10 subject matter scintillating, two days is a
11 hardship to a lot of people. And it seems to me
12 that with these anecdotal reports from friends and
13 whatnot that we may be, in fact, discouraging
14 hunting. I hope we don't do that.
15 Is there any way that you can report
16 back to us at the next meeting what kind of
17 options we might explore that would allow, for
18 instance -- this was a proposal a friend put forth
19 that I said sounded okay, it sounded reasonable.
20 Why can't we have a two-tier system, where if you
21 don't have any intention of going elk hunting in
22 New Mexico, that you can take a course in Texas
23 that would only certify you in Texas and not in
24 other states. But if you were a hunter that liked
25 to hunt all over the United States, that you go
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1 ahead and submit to the two-day course and
2 therefore are eligible for certification in other
3 states. Is that an option or a possibility or
4 worth exploring?
5 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Or a class
6 1 and class 2.
7 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: Well, to
8 make it a little dramatic -- well, go ahead.
9 MR. HALL: Well, certainly we've
10 scratched our heads at the options. And I -- it
11 sounds easy, but it can be complicated. For
12 example, to receive federal funding, for example,
13 you know, the scrutiny of the other states is when
14 you drop those whatever standards they set -- I
15 mean, they look at you hard. And Georgia was the
16 case in point where states began to turn down any
17 card from Georgia that appeared in their state
18 because of their substandard six-hour type of a
19 course. And those are kind of the peer-type
20 pressures. With that said, though, I think that
21 proactively we've taken this home study and
22 Internet materials, and that's a four- to six-hour
23 course so we aren't -- we are at the point of
24 trying to make this two-tier. I think we've
25 already got that, where they attend a four- to
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1 six-hour course and can get certification.
2 However, that's preceded by the Internet workbook
3 or this workbook in the home study --
4 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Having done a home
5 study on driver's ed, it's not any better. It's
6 worse.
7 MR. HALL: I understand. There's
8 lots of objectives. Certainly we'll look at the
9 options. And I, for one -- you know, you've got
10 both of these scales. You want to get as much
11 knowledge and skills imparted as possible to avert
12 what Mr. Angelo said in terms of the downside of
13 hunting, you know, the ethics or the bad ethics,
14 the bad safety habits, those kind of things.
15 But on the other hand, you want to
16 make it convenient and fun. I think this skills
17 course has got instructors that have been involved
18 in 30 years, some of the most boring classes that
19 you could probably sit through re-energized. And
20 now they're outdoors and they're not in the
21 classroom anymore. And those are the kinds of
22 successes I think we need to try to pursue. But,
23 yeah, we'll look at all the options and continue
24 to.
25 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: How many schools
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1 are teaching it through the ag programs?
2 MR. TERRY: Approximately 900.
3 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: That's quite a
4 few. But are we making an effort to expand that?
5 If any people are hunting in Midland, I bet we're
6 not doing it in any of the Midland schools.
7 MR. TERRY: I beg to differ with you
8 there because there's a gentleman named Jim
9 Phillips who is in Midland High School that
10 teaches it.
11 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: Great. I hadn't
12 even heard about it. That's good.
13 MR. TERRY: But fortunately it is in
14 a lot more schools than we actually know about.
15 We've trained probably over a thousand ag teachers
16 and we have about between 850 and 900 right now.
17 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: That would be a
18 terrific way to make it easier and get more
19 involved people involved in it, I would think.
20 MR. TERRY: One of the things that
21 we deal with like that is the fact that that is an
22 elective course at high school level called
23 "Agriculture Science 381," which is wildlife
24 management and recreation. And it being an
25 elective course, not everybody gets to take it.
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1 And unfortunately, not everybody can take it. But
2 fortunately some of the ag teachers do provide
3 classes outside the curriculum of their school and
4 they'll provide classes for their community, which
5 is a real benefit. Just as a matter of fact, we
6 looked yesterday to see how many counties actually
7 provided classes throughout the state. And out of
8 254 counties, 240 had classes throughout the
9 State. And I looked at those counties, the 14
10 counties that didn't have them, and they were
11 either very remotely sparsely populated or they
12 lied adjacent to another county with a major city
13 where the people drove to that city, like Amarillo
14 is part of Randall County on both sides. And they
15 went to those other classes there. So we're going
16 to try to cover a class in every county as
17 requested. And we're doing a pretty good job of
18 that right now.
19 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: Madam
20 chairman, I would like to see, though, a
21 presentation of all the options we have for making
22 this easy, simple, and some numbers behind how
23 many kids we're reaching, if that's -- whenever
24 y'all choose to put it on the committee agenda. I
25 just get so many comments. I know it's a tough
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1 one, it's hard to balance. It's a lot of issues.
2 That's what we're supposed to deal with, to me, is
3 policy in this area.
4 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Mr. Chairman --
5 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Mr.
6 Chairman -- I'm sorry.
7 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Go ahead.
8 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: I heard a
9 comment -- I'm not sure I made the connection.
10 One was that if we go to two-tier, Texas and to
11 cornerphrase, multistate, it's only at the
12 multistate where you have the issue of reciprocity
13 and having enough hours on the curriculum standard
14 of meeting the requirements of being recognized by
15 the other states. Right?
16 MR. HALL: Yes and no. I think
17 there's a pressure that if Texas has a substandard
18 course, and even though --
19 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: I'm
20 talking about having two courses. One is just to
21 qualify the person to hunt in Texas, and the other
22 is to be recognized. Is that not practical, to
23 have those two?
24 MR. HALL: The complication comes
25 when you have a student that, for all practical
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1 purposes, thinks they're just going to hunt in
2 Texas and five years later they decide to go to
3 Colorado.
4 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Well, then
5 they have to take the other course.
6 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: They have to take
7 the second half of the course.
8 MR. HALL: Okay. Then the two
9 certification cards is what you're talking about?
10 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Yeah,
11 that's what I'm talking about. Two classes. I
12 mean, I look at it as a pilot in terms of -- you
13 know, you have a private, then you get your
14 instrument. You know when you don't have the
15 other.
16 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Mr. Chairman, I
17 think time is pressing on us, but I want to ask
18 Mr. Hall another question.
19 Is there any way that we -- or any
20 forum where we will be meeting with other states
21 in the near future to discuss this kind of thing?
22 MR. HALL: We have two forums with
23 all the coordinators, a list, and then the annual
24 conference which comes up in May of 2002.
25 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Well, it might be
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1 something to look out going down the road. I've
2 talked to members of the hunting advisory
3 committee off the record and over cocktails. This
4 is a subject that keeps coming up as an issue.
5 And I think we ought to take it seriously and see
6 if we can't get creative and figure out a good way
7 to deal with it.
8 MR. HALL: There's also a voucher
9 approach -- just an FYI, a voucher approach where
10 you can hunt for a day or weekend to try it out
11 type of thing.
12 CHAIRMAN HENRY: Any other
13 questions? Thank you, gentlemen.
14 We had another report coming from
15 Dr. McKinney, but I'm going to ask that we can
16 hold that until the next meeting. It has to do
17 with status report on outreach and plans for the
18 near future. So if you don't mind, Dr. McKinney,
19 would you mind holding out?
20 MR. McKINNEY: That's fine.
21 CHAIRMAN HENRY: Is there anything
22 else that needs to come before the committee?
23 Thank you, Madam Chairman. We have finished.
24 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: I believe that
25 concludes all the committee meetings, so this
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1 meeting is adjourned.
2 *-*-*-*-*
3 (MEETING ADJOURNED.)
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1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
2 STATE OF TEXAS )
3 COUNTY OF TRAVIS )
4 I, MELODY RENEE DeYOUNG, a Certified
5 Court Reporter in and for the State of Texas, do
6 hereby certify that the above and foregoing 35
7 pages constitute a full, true and correct
8 transcript of the minutes of the Texas Parks &
9 Wildlife Commission on NOVEMBER 7, 2001, in the
10 commission hearing room of the Texas Parks &
11 Wildlife Headquarters Complex, Austin, Travis
12 County, Texas.
13 I FURTHER CERTIFY that a stenographic
14 record was made by me at the time of the public
15 meeting and said stenographic notes were
16 thereafter reduced to computerized transcription
17 under my supervision and control.
18 WITNESS MY HAND this the 9th day of
19 January, 2002.
20
21
MELODY RENEE DeYOUNG, RPR, CSR NO. 3226
22 Expiration Date: 12-31-02
3101 Bee Caves Road
23 Centre II, Suite 220
Austin, Texas 78746
24 (512) 328-5557
25