Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission
Outreach and Education Committee

November 6, 2002

Commission Hearing Room
Texas Parks & Wildlife Department Headquarters Complex
4200 Smith School Road
Austin, TX 78744

           7        BE IT REMEMBERED, that heretofore on  the 6th day of

           8   November, 2002, there came on to be heard matters under the

           9   regulatory authority of the Parks and Wildlife Commission

          10   of Texas, in the Commission Hearing Room of the Texas Parks

          11   and Wildlife Headquarters Complex, beginning at 2:27 p.m.

          12   to wit:

          13   APPEARANCES:


          16             Katharine Armstrong, Austin, Texas, Commission
          17             Chair
          18             Joseph B.C. Fitzsimons, San Antonio, Texas
          19             Ernest Angelo, Jr., Midland, Texas
          20             John Avila, Jr., Fort Worth, Texas
          21             Alvin L. Henry, Houston, Texas, Committee
          22             Chair
          23             Philip Montgomery, Dallas, Texas
          24             Donato D. Ramos, Laredo, Texas
          25             Kelly W. Rising, M.D., Beaumont, Texas
          26             Mark W. Watson, Jr., San Antonio, Texas

          28   Robert L. Cook, Executive Director, and other personnel of
          29   the Parks and Wildlife Department

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           1             CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG:  Commissioner Henry, would

           2   you convene the Outreach and Education Committee meeting,

           3   please?

           4             COMMISSIONER HENRY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

           5             We're convening the Outreach and Education

           6   Committee.

           7             I would ask for approval of the minutes from

           8   our prior meeting, and that would be the meeting of May

           9   29.  There was no meeting in August.  Do I have a motion

          10   for approval?

          11             MR. WATSON:  So move.

          12             COMMISSIONER HENRY:  Is there a second?

          13             COMMISSIONER RISING:  Second.

          14             COMMISSIONER HENRY:  Thank you.  The minutes

          15   are approved.

          16             Chairman's charges, Mr. Cook?

          17             MR. COOK:  Thank you, Mr. Henry.

          18             The charge up for comment today is the

          19   implementation of the provisions of our sunset bill.  You

          20   may remember that Senate Bill 305, our sunset bill,

          21   required the Department to evaluate our outreach and

          22   education efforts and to report the findings to the

          23   commission.  Scott Boruff's presentation is the executive

          24   summary of that report.

          25             COMMISSIONER HENRY:  Mr. Boruff?

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           1             MR. BORUFF:  Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, my

           2   name is Scott Boruff, Deputy Executive Director of

           3   Operations.  Steve Hall is with me; he's the Director of

           4   our Education and Outreach program.

           5             I'd like to start out by saying first of all

           6   that we've been taking a pretty hard look at our outreach

           7   and education efforts for really the last year or so in

           8   light of Senate Bill 305, which required us to do so.  In

           9   particular, in the last two or three months in my new

          10   role and in the role that I served in as an interim

          11   position over the administrative sections, we really have

          12   taken an aggressive approach to developing a project plan

          13   for this project much like we did the business

          14   implementation plan relative to our other management

          15   reviews.

          16             One of the things that started early on after

          17   SB 305, was an analysis of what we had.  As you may or

          18   may not know, one of the problems that was identified was

          19   that it's hard to kind of get our hands around what we

          20   actually do in this Agency relative to outreach and

          21   education.

          22             The good news from my perspective is that

          23   there's a lot of it going on out there and that most of

          24   it's appropriate, and we'll talk about that in a minute. 

          25   There were some things that we -- as we went forward, we

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           1   identified some needs to tighten up and re-look at the

           2   way we do things, and that's what we'll be talking about

           3   here as we move forward.

           4             Many of the outreach and education activities

           5   that we participate in are small, and many of them are

           6   pretty significant.  As Commissioner Henry knows -- and

           7   many of the rest of you -- we are currently involved in

           8   the Sheldon Lake Environmental Education Center, which is

           9   a tremendous agency-wide, multi-divisional effort to put

          10   together a pilot educational state park that will really

          11   serve as the prototype for both the state and the rest of

          12   the country in terms of a significant outreach and

          13   education effort.

          14             Even more interesting to me in my new role:  As

          15   I've been out and around the state working with the real

          16   people that do the real work for this Agency, I've been

          17   quite struck by the fact that almost everybody I've been

          18   out there with does education and outreach.

          19             I spent a couple of days riding around with the

          20   game warden a couple of months ago, and I was really

          21   pleasantly surprised at how much time that particular

          22   individual took to talk to people about our mission and

          23   what we do.  And it was the same with the state park

          24   staff when I visited with them -- and the wildlife staff.

          25             So what has become apparent to me that has

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           1   probably been apparent to many people in this Agency for

           2   a long time is that education and outreach is really a

           3   part of this culture; it's not confined to one division,

           4   nor is it confined to one branch.  It really is something

           5   that this Agency does and every person out there should

           6   be encouraged to do.  And that was one of the basic

           7   findings that we found as we moved forward.

           8             Specifically, though, in the last three months,

           9   we have put together a project plan and are moving down

          10   the road to try to get the plan formalized and to get our

          11   ducks in a row, if you will, to kind of move forward in

          12   the new methodologies that we're going to describe here

          13   in a minute.  In an effort to do that, a couple of things

          14   have happened.

          15             First of all, Chairman Armstrong has put

          16   together an advisory group that's going to be advising us

          17   of our constituents and friends that will come in and

          18   work with the staff to try to pull together what we do in

          19   a more cohesive fashion.

          20             Second of all, internally, we have put together

          21   an education and outreach task force, which -- by the

          22   way, we're excited about the fact that it also is broad

          23   based.  It has members from all seven resource divisions,

          24   all of whom do outreach and education activities.  And we

          25   have liaisons with a couple of the administrative

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           1   divisions.  So this is genuinely an Agency-wide task

           2   force that's looking at education and outreach issues.

           3             The two primary deliverables that we charged

           4   that group with were, first of all, response to sunset. 

           5   We were required to come up with a specific response to

           6   three or four specific issues that sunset had charged us

           7   with, and those were primarily issues of coordination and

           8   analysis to ensure that we were not redundant or poorly

           9   managing the costs of those programs and to look at where

          10   the coordination effort internal to the Agency should be

          11   located:  Which division should it be housed in.

          12             So the first deliverable was the sunset

          13   response, which went out last week, and I'm confident

          14   that it addresses the issues that sunset asked us to

          15   address.  We will be glad to forward to you or share with

          16   you the detailed document.  It's quite lengthy, and I'm

          17   not going to -- since this is a briefing, I'm not going

          18   to spend a lot of time with that today.

          19             But the bottom line is:  We looked at things

          20   like, Are the outreach and education activities that we

          21   do here in the Department consistent with the mission. 

          22   That was one of the charges from the sunset, and the

          23   answer was, By and large, yes, they are consistent with

          24   the mission.  In fact, we found virtually no outreach and

          25   education programs that we deemed to be inappropriate or

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           1   aimed at something that the Agency would not see as part

           2   of its mission.

           3             We were also charged to look at coordination. 

           4   This is an area where we probably were the weakest.  And

           5   it probably represents the area of our outreach and

           6   education that puts us at risk from a perception

           7   perspective out there in the community.

           8             Really, the bottom line is that the programs

           9   are doing what they're supposed to do by and large --

          10   that's not to say they can't be done better -- and that

          11   we may need to refocus our efforts in some areas.  The

          12   problem really was that the business model that was used

          13   to track, create, report on and monitor what we do are

          14   very diverse out there; there is no standard model or

          15   there was not a standard model at the point we were

          16   looking at it.

          17             So programs were borne differently.  Some of

          18   them were borne at very low levels, and some of them were

          19   borne at very high levels.  There were different

          20   reporting mechanisms.  Some of the programs reviewed

          21   themselves regularly, and some of the programs didn't

          22   review themselves in many, many years.  Some programs had

          23   strong evaluation components that looked at their

          24   effectiveness and issues like that, and some did not.

          25             So the real focus for us as we looked at this

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           1   report that we were putting together is:  How can we pull

           2   together a business system that allows us to do the right

           3   thing and report on it in a way that makes us look

           4   credible to the people that we need to report to.

           5             So the first thing was the sunset response,

           6   which I think we've complied with.  Secondary to that is

           7   what we are calling an education and outreach plan, which

           8   is going to be the comprehensive plan that we try to --

           9   we'll have at least the initial draft ready in January.

          10             This will be the entire document which comes

          11   out of the effort of -- the hand-in-hand effort between

          12   the internal group task force and the advisory group as

          13   we go forward, and it will lay the groundwork and set us

          14   a road map, if you will, to move down the street towards

          15   where we want to be with outreach and education.

          16             Back to the assessment, this was an important

          17   piece for us.  I think that Steve's shop looked at some

          18   34 major programs and did a complete analysis of those

          19   programs in terms of what they do, "Is it appropriate,"

          20   and so forth and so on.  And that detail's available.

          21             We -- obviously, we've put together the team. 

          22   One of the major decisions we have made -- and it was

          23   accomplished last Friday -- is moving Steve's shop,

          24   Outreach and Education, to the Communications Division

          25   within the Agency.  As we looked at what education and

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           1   outreach does and the importance of that and the

           2   importance of reaching out to our constituents as a

           3   whole, we felt like it was a natural fit for Lydia's shop

           4   in Communications.

           5             So that has happened.  As of November 1, Steve

           6   reports to Lydia.  Lydia, of course, reports to Drew

           7   Thigpen.  So the next time we do this, Mr. Thigpen will

           8   get to get up here and give you this presentation.

           9             As I said, we really essentially asked Steve to

          10   put together what in the industry is known as a PMO, a

          11   Project Management Office, specifically for the task of

          12   managing these things like a project.  And by that, I'll

          13   share with you a couple of things that we want to happen. 

          14   First of all, we would like the plan to have clearly

          15   identifiable milestones and deliverables, and that is: 

          16   What are we supposed to be getting out of the activities

          17   that we do.

          18             In order to assure that but not take away the

          19   flexibility of the different divisions to identify what's

          20   an appropriate outreach and education for them, what we

          21   are going to do is require every major outreach and

          22   education effort to be chartered.  It's a formal

          23   document, it's recommended by the Project Management

          24   Institute, it's usually a one-pager, and it identifies

          25   the authority to move forward.  And it would have to be

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           1   signed off on at a relatively high level, probably a

           2   division director level, in the Agency so that we won't

           3   just have folks out there creating education projects

           4   because they think it's the right thing to do.

           5             There will, however, be a process for them to

           6   send forth their ideas, have those float up the chain of

           7   command, and they will be officially recognized once the

           8   charter is approved.  The charter will also help us to

           9   address issues like redundancy.

          10             Obviously, as the charters come up to Steve's

          11   shop, we'll be looking at those and analyzing those.  And

          12   if there's already a charter that says, "We're going to

          13   do this," then we won't charter another activity that

          14   does it unless there's some very good reason to do so. 

          15   So we will create essentially a central registry through

          16   the Outreach and Education Branch, where every authorized

          17   outreach and education project is registered, if you

          18   will, and has a charter.

          19             Along with the charter, each outreach and

          20   education activity will be required to have a plan, and

          21   the plan will include things like timelines,

          22   deliverables, frequencies of review and those kinds of

          23   items -- and these are fairly standard in the project

          24   management industry -- which is going to standardize

          25   essentially all of these activities across the Agency.

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           1             Obviously, we have some activities going on in

           2   the Agency, like our national leaders groups, that have

           3   given us information about how we might do this better. 

           4   And we will continue to look for those kinds of

           5   information as we move forward.

           6             I'm going to stop there and see if you've got

           7   any questions for myself or Mr. Hall.

           8             COMMISSIONER HENRY:  Any questions or comments?

           9             COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  I guess I wonder

          10   what -- how we sort of approach this from a policy

          11   standpoint when you say, Go get them.  Is there a budget

          12   and a series of objectives that we have that will come

          13   back up to the Commission to say, This is where we want

          14   to go with this area?  Or how we -- it sounds like we

          15   have great management tools aimed at it.  How do we react

          16   from a policy standpoint?

          17             MR. BORUFF:  Well, of course, that's at your

          18   discretion to tell us how you would like that to work,

          19   but, clearly, I guess what we want is -- by early January

          20   is to have a plan in place that we can either move

          21   forward on or bring back for Commission approval. 

          22   Whatever you direct us to do we're certainly willing to

          23   do.

          24             COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  And so --

          25             MR. BORUFF:  There are --

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           1             COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  Go ahead.  I'm sorry.

           2             MR. BORUFF:  There are generally, Mr.

           3   Commissioner, pretty good goals and objectives for most

           4   of these activities.  I will tell you, I mean, there was

           5   a perception that there might not be, because we didn't

           6   have a system in place -- a business system -- to track

           7   them and make sure that they were demonstrable.  But by

           8   and large, we didn't see many outreach and education

           9   activities kind of going off willy-nilly.  So I'm not --

          10   I mean, we're certainly willing to do whatever policy

          11   approach you're --

          12             COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  Well, I just thought

          13   as part of sunset that we'd sort of somewhere have some

          14   sort of sit-down and say, "Okay, here's what we want to

          15   do with this," or, "Here's where we're going, and here

          16   are our goals."  That methodology certainly gives you a

          17   way to execute it.  Because I wasn't there at the

          18   beginning of some of these, I'm a little ignorant of all

          19   the things that we're doing, and I couldn't tell you

          20   exactly other than in a very broad sense what our goals

          21   and objectives are.

          22             (Simultaneous discussion.)

          23             COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  I was hoping to learn

          24   more about what we're doing and why we're doing it and

          25   where we're going as part of the sunset review process.

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           1             COMMISSIONER HENRY:  Will this plan list the

           2   goals and objectives of the various entities?

           3             MR. BORUFF:  Absolutely.  In fact, the charter

           4   and the plan would be very detailed in terms of what the

           5   goals and the objectives --

           6             COMMISSIONER HENRY:  So --

           7             MR. BORUFF:  -- and the deliverables would be.

           8             COMMISSIONER HENRY:  -- I think what you're

           9   asking is that those should be made available to the

          10   Commission at possibly the January meeting that he's

          11   talking about?

          12             COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  Yes, sir.  But it's a

          13   little late to react if we're going to submit it in

          14   January.

          15             MR. BORUFF:  January might be a little early,

          16   because we may not be through with the plan early enough

          17   in January to present.  So my --

          18             COMMISSIONER HENRY:  Well, you can come let us

          19   know what you're doing or in what direction you're going.

          20             MR. BORUFF:  Sure.  We can do that.

          21             COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  I would like as a

          22   Commission to ask for the broad direction -- sunset's

          23   direction.

          24             COMMISSIONER HENRY:  That's what I'm

          25   suggesting.  That --

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           1             COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  You know, in a broad

           2   term, policy -- that's our job to set policy.  But

           3   what -- is it all hunting?  Is it all fishing?  Is it all

           4   conservation?  Is it children oriented?  Is it -- you

           5   know, what really -- of all of the choices we've got in

           6   education and outreach, how are we weighting them?  What

           7   are -- what is the balance we're trying to strike in

           8   where we're headed here?

           9             CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG:  Phil, let me try to at

          10   least answer part of that question as I see it.  We've

          11   got a new advisory board that is taking shape right now. 

          12   Some -- we've got quite a few people that have agreed to

          13   serve on it, and we will be asking some more.  And these

          14   will be experts in the field of education.  They will be

          15   landowners; they will be people that are interested in

          16   this subject and have some experience in it that, I hope,

          17   will help us in formulating some of our policies.

          18             I use a lot of the advisory -- we all do rely

          19   on our advisory boards to those ends, but I think -- one

          20   of the ideas that have -- I've toyed with is, for

          21   instance, if it is a policy of the Commission to ensure

          22   that hunting and fishing have a future in this state, how

          23   do we communicate the desire to increase hunting and

          24   fishing recruitment into our education and outreach area

          25   in a way that results in more hunting and fishing?

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           1             If we believe that our urban populations are

           2   not receiving sufficient educational instruction in the

           3   area of water conservation or land conservation or the

           4   like:  What kind of programs do we have in place so that

           5   we could help in educating our children properly so they

           6   can, hopefully, become good and responsible citizens.

           7             And I'm also interested in education and

           8   outreach with help from the advisory group to review what

           9   we are teaching, the actual curriculum that's out there,

          10   and to be sure that what it is we are teaching can be

          11   supported by sound science and the like.

          12             And so I think that what staff has done an

          13   excellent job doing is getting our ducks in order so that

          14   we can effectively implement the policies of education

          15   and outreach.

          16             COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  I agree.  I mean, to

          17   me, those are a number of the major questions.  I just

          18   would like to see the Commission as a group get together,

          19   debate that out and balance it out and decide as a group

          20   how we're going to do it and turn to the advisory board

          21   for advice and additional ideas and use the

          22   methodology -- management methodology.  But I didn't hear

          23   in there where we were going to do that as a group.  I

          24   think that's something sunset calls for us to do and we

          25   ought to do.

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           1             CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG:  I believe all our

           2   Commissioners are invited to advisory group meetings.  I

           3   would encourage all of you all to participate in those. 

           4   And any other format that we can participate in, I sure

           5   would encourage all the Commission to do that.

           6             This is a very important task for us; it's

           7   something that's going to endure much longer than we do,

           8   and I hope we've got it or are attempting to set it up in

           9   a way that we can make a real difference.

          10             COMMISSIONER ANGELO:  One of the concerns that

          11   I've had every time we've talked about education and

          12   outreach is some measure of accountability so that at

          13   some point in time, we know if a particular program,

          14   whatever it is, is actually delivering results, somewhat

          15   as the Chairman mentioned.  So it looks to me like you've

          16   set up a really good framework here for getting us in a

          17   position to be able to do that.

          18             MR. BORUFF:  Yes, sir.

          19             COMMISSIONER ANGELO:  That -- in the areas that

          20   I've worked in in the past, in other situations where

          21   outreach particularly was a function of the organization,

          22   the biggest problem we've always had is measuring success

          23   or failure of the effort and not just making it a

          24   bottomless pit for money or time.  So to the extent that

          25   what you are proposing here can deliver on that, I think

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           1   it will be a tremendous advancement for the Agency, and I

           2   hope that that's where we can go with it.

           3             MR. BORUFF:  I do, too, Commissioner.  I would

           4   like to say one thing, though.  I do think that this

           5   branch has been trying to be all things to all people

           6   many times, and that's something that I don't think we

           7   can continue to do and be successful at anything.  And so

           8   one of the things we do need is some direction from the

           9   Commission about, What are those high-priority things

          10   that we want to use these limited resources to do.

          11             Some of those, as you know, are statutorily

          12   mandated.  Our boater education and our hunter education

          13   are things that we have to do unless the law changes. 

          14   However, on the rest of the things, we have pretty

          15   discretion about where we're going to go, but we don't

          16   have many resources.

          17             And one of the reasons -- at least, my

          18   perception is -- that we're kind of fragmented out there

          19   now is because we've been trying to do too much with too

          20   little without good direction from the Commission.  So

          21   anything you could do to help give this shop clear

          22   direction about what those priorities are, if we match it

          23   with good management, I think we'll get good results.

          24             COMMISSIONER HENRY:  Okay.  We won't keep this

          25   going too long -- oh.

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           1             Excuse me, Commissioner.

           2             COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  Well, I appreciate

           3   what you're saying.

           4             Madam Chairman, what I'd like to do, though, is

           5   have a session where management will come up and say,

           6   "Here's the range of options; Here's the range of

           7   policies, and here are the dollars attached to them," and

           8   set some priorities and say, "Okay, we understand you

           9   can't do everything, but here are the major objectives we

          10   think you ought to; Now take that and implement it."  So

          11   just -- I still would like to see us have that kind of

          12   session.

          13             One thought about this.  To me, it's a great

          14   methodology.  Depending on the tone you all set, it can

          15   be very intimidating for people doing forward projects. 

          16   And I hope the tone is that we are -- at least, speaking

          17   for myself on the Commission, I'm perfectly happy for us

          18   to fail in a lot of things that we try because, if you

          19   don't fail, you're not going to try things.

          20             So to me, failure is not and should not be a

          21   stigma; it should be the quality of the conception and

          22   the effort and intent.  If through measurability it's not

          23   succeeding, then you cut and move to the next thing.  But

          24   I think we ought to have the attitude that we're willing

          25   to try a lot of things and we're willing to get out there

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           1   and innovate maybe with some cheap experiments but not

           2   have this be so intimidating a procedure that people

           3   won't try and won't succeed.

           4             MR. HALL:  I think, internally, it has been a

           5   hand-in-hand type of a procedure.  So I would think the

           6   tone is -- always has been good and will continue in that

           7   vein.  But from an internal perspective, you know, we do

           8   assessments.

           9             And Mr. Angelo said it right in that sometimes

          10   in an educational sense, your benefits or your measures

          11   appear ten and 20 years later, and it has always been a

          12   tough one to get your -- a handle on.  And I think that's

          13   why I respect this PMO process because I think us -- as

          14   educators, we've really actually failed to look at the

          15   business side of what we do because we're more into it

          16   from the program side.

          17             And so it will -- I think it will give us the

          18   model that we've actually needed to fine-tune or, at

          19   least, try to get a handle on these cats in terms of --

          20   you know, you've got 34 programs out there, and some of

          21   them permeate the whole Department.  In some programs,

          22   biologists are involved and game wardens are involved.

          23             Expo is a fine example, I mean, and just

          24   knowing the dollar figures that are involved in the --

          25   you know, the staff time and the dollar figures is quite

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           1   an effort in some of these areas and some of these

           2   programs.  Some of them are fairly well defined and good

           3   programs.

           4             But I will remind the Commission, too, that you

           5   have a book out there for -- a publication entitled

           6   "Recreation Program Opportunities."  That's a good place

           7   to start in terms of figuring out what the programs are

           8   and what they accomplish, and then we can go from there

           9   in terms of with this education and outreach plan as far

          10   as, you know, the more specific dollar figures associated

          11   with the programs, and things like that.

          12             COMMISSIONER HENRY:  I was going to suggest

          13   that possibly at the January meeting, even though you may

          14   not have a plan formalized, you could give us an updated

          15   report on where things are at that moment and where you

          16   see them moving.  And that would give the Commissioners

          17   an opportunity to have some input based on not only their

          18   thinking but the other meetings and things that have

          19   taken place.

          20             I'm encouraged with the developments that are

          21   taking place so far.  I was delighted that there is a

          22   home for Outreach at this point and even more delighted,

          23   in all honesty, that it was in Communications, because of

          24   the good work that we've done so far with that department

          25   and Lydia.

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           1             I don't know, Mr. Thigpen; I'm just assuming

           2   that since Bob brought him on board, he's okay.  But --

           3             (Laughter.)

           4             COMMISSIONER ANGELO:  He's a great guy.

           5             CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG:  He'll do.

           6             COMMISSIONER HENRY:  So I mean I'm hopeful that

           7   everything will turn out there.  But I wanted to say

           8   particularly to the staff team that has been working on

           9   this that I think they've done some very good work.  And

          10   like Phil and others, I'm interested in, you know, the

          11   pop, pop, pop and seeing what we get, you know, for our

          12   money.  And we'll know what's working right and what's

          13   working wrong.

          14             But so far, I'd like to commend you guys for

          15   the work that you've done.  I think it's very good.

          16             MR. BORUFF:  Thank you.  And I would like to

          17   say that, you know, I have the highest regard for Mr.

          18   Thigpen.  I've only worked with him for two months, and I

          19   think it's going to be an exciting opportunity for the

          20   two of us to be able to demonstrate to the rest of the

          21   Agency that these don't have to be turf issues, that

          22   these can be shared issues and that all of these

          23   divisions can come together and benefit and value from

          24   these kinds of exercises.

          25             COMMISSIONER HENRY:  Are there any other

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           1   questions from the Committee?

           2             CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG:  One suggestion, Mr.

           3   Commissioner, that I would like to make or just mention.

           4             There will be a meeting set of the Education

           5   and Outreach Advisory Group, which will be the first

           6   meeting since Scott and the group completed their work. 

           7   We were -- we started out to have that meeting first but

           8   then realized that we had to comply with sunset and that

           9   that was going to kind of give us some direction in and

          10   of itself and, having completed that, get sort of a

          11   system set-up that we could agree was a good one.

          12             And now we will have a meeting of the Education

          13   and Outreach Advisory Board sometime, hopefully, before

          14   Thanksgiving; if not, in early December.  And I feel

          15   certain that we'll get some more direction from them, and

          16   I do encourage all the Commissioners to attend that would

          17   like to.  I'll be sure that you're made aware of the

          18   date.

          19             And then, at the January meeting, we'll

          20   continue this discussion and get us on down the road to

          21   getting it all melded together and moving forward.

          22             COMMISSIONER HENRY:  Any other questions?

          23             (No response.)

          24             COMMISSIONER HENRY:  Thank you, gentlemen.

          25             MR. BORUFF:  Thank you.

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           1             MR. HALL:  Thank you.

           2             COMMISSIONER HENRY:  That concludes the meeting

           3   of the Education and Outreach Committee, Madam Chair.

           4             CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG:  That concludes the meeting

           5   for today.  Do I need to make any other statements?

           6             COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  That's it.

           7             CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG:  All right.  I'll see you 

           8   tomorrow.

           9             (Whereupon, at 3:00 p.m., the meeting was

          10   concluded.)

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           1                     C E R T I F I C A T E

           2   MEETING OF:     Texas Parks and Wildlife Department
           3                   Outreach and Education Committee

           4   LOCATION:      Austin, Texas

           5   DATE:          November 6, 2002

           6             I do hereby certify that the foregoing pages,
           7   numbers 1 through 24, inclusive, are the true, accurate,
           8   and complete transcript prepared from the verbal
           9   recording made by electronic recording by Penny Bynum
          10   before the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department.

          11                                             12/10/02

          12                       (Transcriber)         (Date)

          13                        On the Record Reporting, Inc.
          14                        3307 Northland, Suite 315
          15                        Austin, Texas 78731

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