Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission
Public Hearing

January 25, 2001

Commission Hearing Room
Texas Parks & Wildlife Department Headquarters Complex
4200 Smith School Road
Austin, TX 78744

             7             BE IT REMEMBERED that heretofore on the 

             8    25th day of January, 2001, there came on to be 

             9    heard matters under the regulatory authority of 

            10    the Parks and Wildlife Commission of Texas, in the 

            11    commission hearing room of the Texas Parks and 

            12    Wildlife Headquarters complex, Austin, Travis 

            13    County, Texas, beginning at 9:12 a.m., to wit:


                        Lee M. Bass, Fort Worth, Texas, Chairman
            17          Dick W. Heath, Carrollton, Texas
                        Nolan Ryan, Alvin, Texas
            18          Ernest Angelo, Jr., Midland, Texas
                        John Avila, Jr., Fort Worth, Texas (Absent)
            19          Carol E. Dinkins, Houston, Texas
                        Alvin L. Henry, Houston, Texas
            20          Katharine Armstrong Idsal, San Antonio, Texas
                        Mark E. Watson, Jr., San Antonio, Texas
            22          Andrew H. Sansom, Executive Director, and 
                  other personnel of the Parks and Wildlife 
            23    Department.



             1    OTHER APPEARANCES:
             2          ANNE OCHOA, City of Lago Vista, 20905 
                  Ridgeview Road, Lago Vista, TX  78645    
                        GILBERT ALLISON, Brookside Village Texas 
             4    6427 Clear Creek, Brookside Village, TX  77581    
             5          MARY ELLIOTT, City of Arlington Parks Dept 
                  717 West Main Street, Arlington, TX  76013 
                        JANET SIMPSON, City of Denton Parks and 
             7    Recreation Deptartment, 321 East McKinney, 
                  Denton, TX  76201 
                        BOB DUKE, Sienna Plantation MUD, 2 1815 K, 
             9    Galveston, TX  77550    
            10          DOCK JACKSON, Council member, City of 
                  Bastrop, Drawer X, Bastrop, TX  78602
                        SANDRA CHIPLEY, City of Bastrop Parks Board, 
            12    402 Cedar, Bastrop, TX  78602    
            13          HENRY WISE, USHGA, TFFA, HHGA, 915 Longview, 
                  Sugarland, TX  77478  
                        FRED BURNS, 3210 Bonita, La Porte, TX  77571  
                        ELLIS GILLELAND, Texas Animals, Post Office 
            16    Box 9001, Austin, TX  78766   
                        TOM SCOTT, City of Bastrop, Bastrop, TX  
            18    78602  
            19          JOHN JEFFERSON, 10433 Firethorn Lane, 
                  Austin, TX  78750    
            21          MEREDITH WHITTEN, Sunset Advisory Commission  
            22          KARLEN "SISU" MORRIS, Marina Association of 
                  Texas, 1717 Sycamore Creek Drive, Dripping 
            23    Springs, TX  78620 
                        DAVID WOLFE, Environmental Defense, 
            25    44 East Avenue, Austin, TX  78701


             1    OTHER APPEARANCES (Continued):
                        GORDON ROBERTSON, LCRA
                        GLENN HOLZER, City of Pflugerville, Post 
             4    Office Box 589, Pflugerville, TX  78638 
             5          AMY ATKINS, City of Pflugerville, Post 
                  Office Box 589, Pflugerville, TX  78691  
                        MATT LOPEZ, Capelo, 3506 Manchaca, Suite 
             7    193, Austin, TX  78704 
             8          DAVID ANDERSON, Texas A&M, College Station, 
                  TX  78843
                        CLYDE WOERNER, Doss Wildlife Association, 
            10    4101 East Hwy 29, Georgetown, TX  78626 
            11          BENNO ECKERT, 10837 Lower Crabapple Road, 
                  Fredericksburg, TX  78624 
                        PRESLEY ARCHELGER, Doss WMA,
            13    8752 Salt Branch Loop, Doss, TX  78618  
            14          L. REX COX, El Paso City Parks and 
                  Recreation Deptartment, 2 Livie Center, 
            15    El Paso, TX  79902 
            16          DENNIS JONES, Mayor, City of Lago Vista, 
                  5301 Thunderbird, Lago Vista, TX  78645 
                        DOROGHY LAUTERBACH, Lago Vista, Post Office 
            18    Box 4091, Lago Vista, TX  78645 
            19          HELEN BREWER, Post Office Box 393, Fort 
                  Davis, TX  79739, Big Horn Transplant Project
                        DAVID K. LANGFORD, Texas Wildlife 
            21    Association 
            22          JOE MILSTEAD, Brookside Village Texas, 12418 
                  Sunbrook Drive, Brookside Village, TX  77581 
                        LORI VILEK, LCRA, 3700 Lake Austin 
            24    Boulevard, Austin, TX  78748  


                  OTHER APPEARANCES (Continued):
                        MARGARET HARDIN, Langford Community 
             3    Management Services, 13740 Research Blvd, Suite 
                  G-1, Austin, TX  78750
                        JUDY LANGFORD, Langford Community Management 
             5    Services, 13740 Research Blvd,  Austin, TX  78750 
             6          BRIAN SYBERT, Sierra Club, Post Office Box 
                  1931, Austin, TX  78751, Shrimp Briefing
             8                         *-*-*-*-*


















             1                     JANUARY 25, 2001

             2                      MORNING SESSION:

             3                         *-*-*-*-*

             4                      PUBLIC HEARING

             5                         *-*-*-*-*

             6                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Good morning.  I'd 

             7    like to call this meeting of the Parks and 

             8    Wildlife Commission to order.  And Mr. Sansom, 

             9    would you please read our opening statement for us 

            10    today.

            11                  MR. SANSOM:  Mr. Chairman, a public 

            12    notice of this meeting containing all items on the 

            13    proposed agenda has been filed in the Office of 

            14    Secretary of State. This is required by Chapter 

            15    551 of the Government Code and referred to as the 

            16    Open Meetings Law.  I would like for this action 

            17    to be noted in the official record of the meeting.

            18                  Ladies and gentlemen, we are very 

            19    pleased to have you-all here this morning, and 

            20    welcome you and look forward to hearing your 


            22                  The Chairman is in charge of the 

            23    meeting.  And as usual, I'll be assisting him 

            24    today as kind of a sergeant at arms.  I want to 

            25    remind you that, if you'd like to speak, you need 


             1    to go outside and fill out a card because the 

             2    Chairman will use those cards to call your name 

             3    and when to come forward.

             4                  When your name is called, please 

             5    come to the podium here in front of me, state your 

             6    name and who you represent, if anyone other than 

             7    yourself.  The Chairman may also, in order to kind 

             8    of expedite the meeting, call the next person in 

             9    line.  And if you could come to the back of the 

            10    room and stand and be ready, then we could move 

            11    the meeting along more expeditiously. 

            12                  Each person who wants to address the 

            13    Commission will have three minutes to speak.  And 

            14    I'll use this little traffic light here to keep 

            15    track of the time here and notify you when your 

            16    three minutes are up.  Your time will be extended 

            17    if a Commissioner asks you a question.  That won't 

            18    count against your three minutes.  Or if they're 

            19    going to discuss something amongst themselves, 

            20    that time will not be counted against you, either. 

            21                  I would ask, as always, that you be 

            22    courteous, that you show proper respect for the 

            23    Commissioners, our staff, and other members of the 

            24    audience.  If you have materials that you would 

            25    like to submit, Ms. Estrada here on my right will 


             1    take them and distribute them to the Commission.  

             2    So please do not attempt to hand anything directly 

             3    to the board.  Once again, I welcome you here 

             4    today, and we all look forward to hearing your 


             6                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Thank you.  The 

             7    first order of business will be approval of 

             8    minutes from our previous meeting that have been 

             9    distributed to the Commission.  Are there any 

            10    comments on those?  The Chair would entertain a 

            11    motion.

            12                  COMMISSIONER ANGELO:  So move.

            13                  COMMISSIONER IDSAL:  Second.

            14                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Motion is seconded.  

            15    All in favor?  Any opposed?  Thank you.

            16                      (Motion passed unanimously.)

            17                  Secondly, the acceptance of gifts.  

            18    Since our last meeting, which has been published 

            19    as part of the public record, over a million 

            20    dollars of gifts from various -- 30 different 

            21    givers for the benefit of the Department and its 

            22    programs.  And if there's any discussion or a 

            23    motion to accept those.

            24                  COMMISSIONER ANGELO:  Move that 

            25    those be accepted.


             1                  COMMISSIONER HEATH:  Second.

             2                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Motion and a second.  

             3    All in favor?  Any opposed?  Thank you.

             4                      (Motion passed unanimously.)
             5              TPWD DONATIONS OF $500 OR MORE
             6       (Donors are listed in the following order: 
                     Donor; Description; Purpose of Donation)
                  (1)   COASTAL CONSERVATION ASSN.; 24' Boston 
             8    Whaler Rig; Law Enforcement
             9    (2)   COASTAL CONSERVATION ASSN.; 26' Boston 
                  Whaler Rig; Law Enforcement
                  (3)   COASTAL CONSERVATION ASSN.; (2) 200 Hp 
            11    Mercury Outboards; Law Enforcement
            12    (4)   WALMART FOUNDATION; CASH; To assist Marine 
                  Development Center Prgs
                  (5)   DUCKS UNLIMITED; ATV and Trailer; To assist 
            14    wetland habitat management and monitoring
            15    (6)   FRIENDS OF PERDERNALES FALLS, SP; CASH;   
                  Improve hiking/equestrian trail system
                  (7)   WEST TEXAS CHAPTER SAFARI CLUB 
            17    INTERNATIONAL; CASH; Research Study
            18    (8)   TEXAS WILDLIFE ASSOCIATION; CASH; Printing 
                  of Publication
                  (9)   WASHINGTON-ON-THE-BRAZOS SP ASSN.; (2) 
            20    Percheron Horses; To provide horse-draw
                  wagon experiences at the Republic of Texas Complex
                  (10)  WASHINGTON-ON-THE-BRAZOS  SP ASSN.; Wagon   
            22    To provide horse-drawn wagon experiences at the 
                  Republic of Texas Complex
                  (11)  WASHINGTON-ON-THE-BRAZOS SP ASSN; Harness; 
            24    to provide horse draw-wagon experiences at the 
                  Republic of Texas Complex


             1    (12)  MISSION TEJAS SP ASSN; (2) Info Max systems    
                  To transmit information about the Rice Family Log 
             2    Home and the Mission commemorative
             3    (13)  TEXAS BIGHORN SOCIETY; (4) Cameras,
                  (1) Scope (1) Binoculars; Restoration of
             4    desert bighorn sheep in Texas - Black Gap WMA
             5    (14)  TEXAS BIGHORN SOCIETY; (2) Cameras; 
                  Restoration of desert bighorn sheep in Texas - 
             6    Black Gap WMA
             7    (15)  HILLCREST FOUNDATION; Materials for an 
                  outdoor pavilion; To construct outdoor educational  
             8    pavilion for school groups and visitors
             9    (16)  ROBERT D. STUART JR.; CASH; Memorial Gift
            10    (17)  EMIL H. KASPER ESTATE; CASH; Estate Gift 
            11    (18)  MARCH FOR PARKS OF COMMERCE; Heating/air 
                  conditioning unit; To provide heating and air 
            12    conditioning in a park cottage
            13    (19)  CNG PRODUCING COMPANY/ DOMINION E&P INC.; 
                  CASH & (2) water analyzers (3) Structures; To use 
            14    as enhancement of state artificial reefs and 
                  equipment to monitor these structures for water 
            15    quality surface 
            16    (20)  BILL A. BEALL;  CASH;  Lifetime License 
                  Endowment Fund
            18    Wetland Restoration at Aquarena Springs
            19    (22)  TEMPLE-INLAND FOREST, INC.; CASH; Texas 
                  Partners in Flight printing report
            21    CASH; Rio Grande Grass Carp Program
            22    (24)  S.M.A.R.T.; CASH; Lake Livingston & Lake 
                  Raven hydrilla removal
                  (25)  THE CAIN FOUNDATION; CASH; TFFC Education
                  (26)  WAYNE ANDERSON; CASH; LBJ habitat 
            25    restoration project


                  The Great Texas Birding Classic
                  (28)  TRAVIS AUDUBON SOCIETY; CASH; The Great 
             3    Texas Birding Classic
             4    (29)  FANCY PUBLICATIONS; CASH; The Great Texas 
                  Birding Classic
                  (30)  DOW CHEMICAL COMPANY; CASH; The Great Texas 
             6    Birding Classic
             7    TOTAL:  $1,045,105.69
             8                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Mr. Sansom, would 

             9    you please proceed with the --

            10                  MR. SANSOM:  Mr. Chairman, if you 

            11    could join me at the podium, I would like at this 

            12    time to announce those who are being recognized 

            13    today of our staff of employees who are being 

            14    recognized for retirements or long years of 

            15    service to Parks and Wildlife. 

            16                  This week I was up in the Governor's 

            17    policy offices in the insurance building and 

            18    noticed that on the walls there were photographs 

            19    made by photographers from Texas Parks and 

            20    Wildlife.  If you go into virtually every capitol 

            21    office, there's somewhere in the room, there's a 

            22    picture that was taken by one of the staff here 

            23    over the many years that Parks and Wildlife 

            24    Magazine has been our flagship publication.

            25                  The person who, for all those years, 


             1    has coordinated that photographic compilation and 

             2    distribution is Susie Ayala.  Susie is retiring 

             3    today with 23 years of service, having been hired 

             4    originally by Bill Reeves, who is the current 

             5    photo editor of the magazine.  During 23 years, 

             6    Susie saw the photo department evolve from one 

             7    that had color processing and printing in-house to 

             8    a current situation where most of our pictures are 

             9    scanned and e-mailed rather than printed and 

            10    framed. 

            11                  Interestingly, Susie, and all of us 

            12    or anybody who has ever requested or had anything 

            13    to do with photography in Parks and Wildlife has 

            14    come to know very well, has the unique distinction 

            15    of also having been the model to a sculpture of a 

            16    Native American woman that is now part of the 

            17    display at Seminole Canyon.  So next time you're 

            18    there, you'll see Susie in the display case. 

            19                  This morning she's here to be 

            20    recognized for her retirement with 23 years of 

            21    service, Susie Ayala.

            22                      (Applause; photographs taken.)

            23                  MR. SANSOM:  John D. LeLeux from law 

            24    enforcement.  He's retiring today as a Game 

            25    Warden V with 28 years.  He started work in 1972 


             1    in Galveston.  He worked in Calhoun County during 

             2    the worst of the commercial fishing disputes.  And 

             3    today he is working in Kenedy in Karnes County, 

             4    where he has been for the last 22 years. 

             5                  Please recognize, retiring with 28 

             6    years of service to Texas Parks and Wildlife as a 

             7    state Game Warden, John D. LeLeux, Jr.

             8                      (Applause; photographs taken.)

             9                  MR. SANSOM:  Jim Watt, not the one 

            10    you're thinking of, is still here.  He is not 

            11    retiring, but he is being recognized today for 35 

            12    years of service.  He started working in the 

            13    Planning and Design Construction Branch which is 

            14    now our Infrastructure Division.  In that 

            15    responsibility he did the original plans for 

            16    Eisenhower State Park, he worked on Goliad, 

            17    Bentsen Rio Grande, Palo Duro, Stephen F. Austin, 

            18    Monahans Sandhills, and more. 

            19                  He was the head of the Local 

            20    Assistance Section when Tim Hogsett was hired.  So 

            21    he was the guy that brought Tim Hogsett to Parks 

            22    and Wildlife.

            23                   Jim Watt is known throughout this 

            24    state now, because during his tenure as the head 

            25    of Planning Assistance to small communities, over 


             1    567 park plans have been prepared for 549 Texas 

             2    cities and counties through his service.  Please 

             3    recognize James Watt from State Parks, with 35 

             4    years of service to Parks and Wildlife.

             5                      (Applause; photographs taken.)

             6                  MR. SANSOM:  For 30 years Tommy 

             7    Davidson has gained a reputation here that is 

             8    second to none.  Members, each day we receive 

             9    probably three to four thousand pieces of mail.  

            10    During the course of the year, we receive over 1.3 

            11    million pieces of mail.  Each one of those pieces 

            12    of mail has to be individually cataloged.  If 

            13    there's money in it, it has to be handled a 

            14    certain way.  And the guy that has developed the 

            15    reputation for thoroughness and honesty in 

            16    customer service is Tommy Davidson. 

            17                  He started as a Clerk in the License 

            18    Section in 1969.  Unfortunately, he left us for a 

            19    while, but he came back in 1982.  And he spent the 

            20    last 16 years diligently processing all that 

            21    incoming revenue and nonrevenue mail to the 

            22    Department.  Please recognize Administrative 

            23    Technician, Tommy Davidson, with 30 years of 

            24    service.

            25                      (Applause; photographs taken.)


             1                  MR. SANSOM:  We have been -- the 

             2    Texas Parks and Wildlife has been recognized 

             3    nationally for its efforts to bring diverse 

             4    communities of people into the professions 

             5    represented in this Department.  One of the most 

             6    successful programs that has been devised here for 

             7    that purpose is our internship program.  Today we 

             8    have over a hundred interns representing all 

             9    ethnicities and genders and backgrounds who work 

            10    in our department through the course of the year, 

            11    principally in the summer, and then ultimately 

            12    many of those young people end up being permanent 

            13    employees of Parks and Wildlife. 

            14                  Mary Alice Carlin, in Human 

            15    Resources assists in managing this great program.  

            16    She's worked here for 25 years.  She serves as a 

            17    Human Resource Assistant in the Employment, 

            18    Recruitment and Retention Branch.  But over her 

            19    career, she's been in Fisheries and Resource 

            20    Protection, Public Lands.  And as I said, in the 

            21    last 19 years in the Human Resources Division. 

            22                  Please recognize, with 25 years of 

            23    service to Texas Parks and Wildlife, Mary Alice 

            24    Carlin. 

            25                      (Applause; photographs taken.)


             1                  MR. SANSOM:  It has been no secret 

             2    to, I know all of the members of the Board, 

             3    certainly everyone who works on our staff, the 

             4    power of data and the power of science.  And time 

             5    and again, over the years that we've worked 

             6    together, we have seen that the principal tool 

             7    that we have in achieving conservation in Texas is 

             8    science and good information. 

             9                  One of the people who has been most 

            10    instrumental in making sure that that data was 

            11    always available to you and to I and to others is 

            12    Don McCarty.  Don became an employee with Parks 

            13    and Wildlife in October of 1975.  He's been 

            14    instrumental in the development of the vegetation 

            15    types of Texas map from satellite data and has 

            16    been the primary scientist responsible for 

            17    conducting and maintaining over 25 years of Big 

            18    Game harvest data and over 15 years of Small Game 

            19    data.

            20                  Please recognize, with 25 years of 

            21    service in the Wildlife Division, Don M. McCarty.

            22                      (Applause; photographs taken.) 

            23                  MR. SANSOM:  Finally, everybody has 

            24    probably had the experience of coming to Texas 

            25    Wildlife Expo and seeing during that event a 


             1    little lady with a lot of beautiful blonde hair 

             2    who is living in an RV right at the entrance to 

             3    the grounds.  Diane Nelson is the queen of the 

             4    warehouse.  She is the supervisor of our warehouse 

             5    operations and a major fixture both in the Texas 

             6    Game Warden Association and Wildlife Expo itself.

             7                  She started working in the warehouse 

             8    in 1980 and managed the Office Supply Section.  

             9    But very soon she began managing our uniform 

            10    operations and became known to everyone in the 

            11    state who had a uniform as part of their 

            12    responsibility. 

            13                  Today, after 20 years, she is 

            14    supervisor of the warehouse operations.  It is my 

            15    pleasure to introduce her to you today, Diane 

            16    Nelson, from the Administrative Resources 

            17    Division, with 20 years of service.

            18                      (Applause; photographs taken.) 

            19                   MR. SANSOM:  Mr. Chairman and 

            20    members, each year the Southeastern Association of 

            21    Fish and Wildlife Agencies recognizes a game 

            22    warden from each of the member states in the 

            23    southeast as officer of the year.  This year is 

            24    the 30th year that this award has been presented 

            25    to a deserving game warden from Texas. 


             1                  Our officer for the Year 2000 is 

             2    Matt Robinson who graduated from the academy in 

             3    1982.  He's worked in Kleberg County.  He's worked 

             4    in Goldthwaite, and today he is stationed in 

             5    Rivera as a Game Warden V.  Matt initiated the 

             6    teaching of hunter education in the Agriculture 

             7    Department at Rivera High School and has led his 

             8    district and his region in case quality and 

             9    production for the past seven years.  Over the 

            10    last 18 years Matt has filed in excess of 5,000 

            11    cases. 

            12                  And today we recognize him as the 

            13    Year 2000 Texas Officer of the Year for the 

            14    Southeastern Association of Fish and Wildlife 

            15    agencies.  Please recognize Matt Robinson.

            16                      (Applause; photographs taken.) 

            17                  MR. SANSOM:  Now, before we get 

            18    down, let me also announce to you that Director 

            19    Jim Robertson was recognized last week by the 

            20    Safari Club International as the Conservation 

            21    Officer of the Year. 

            22                      (Applause; photographs taken.) 

            23                   MR. SANSOM:  It gives me a great 

            24    deal of pleasure to -- now that Tim Peterson, our 

            25    new Creative Services Director has joined us, 


             1    under the guidance of Lydia Saldana, to announce 

             2    Mr. Heath that, our new annual report is off the 

             3    press.  It's got to be the most beautiful one 

             4    produced so far. 

             5                  It shows an unbelievable example of 

             6    the creativity of the people who have participated 

             7    in putting it together.  We will provide each of 

             8    you a copy, but I wanted to formally thank you for 

             9    initiating this process in our Department.  It has 

            10    become a part of our culture and a key 

            11    communication tool during the course of our year.  

            12    We have a copy for each of you, but I wanted to 

            13    particularly thank Lydia and Tim and all of the 

            14    folks in Communications who worked on this year's 

            15    annual report.  Thank you.

            16                      (Applause.) 

            17                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Thank you, 

            18    Mr. Sansom.  Thank you, Lori.

            19       AGENDA ITEM NO. 1:  ACTION - CONSENT AGENDA.

            20                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Okay.  Now I'd like 

            21    to do approval of our agenda for today.  We have 

            22    five items that are eligible to the consent 

            23    agenda, having been heard in committee and 

            24    approved at that level.  And there is no public 

            25    comment at this point on these.  It's Items 7, 8, 


             1    10, 12, and 13.  And the Chair would entertain a 

             2    motion to move those to the consent agenda.

             3                  COMMISSIONER HEATH:  So moved.

             4                  VICE-CHAIR DINKINS:  Second.

             5                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  A motion and a 

             6    second.  All in favor?  Any opposed?  Hearing 

             7    none, the Chair would entertain a motion to 

             8    approve the consent agenda for the record. 

             9                  COMMISSIONER HEATH:  Move.

            10                  VICE-CHAIR DINKINS:  Second.

            11                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  A motion and a 

            12    second.  All in favor?  Opposed?  Hearing none, 

            13    the consent agenda passes.

            14                      (Motion passed unanimously.)

            15       AGENDA ITEM NO. 2:  ACTION - LOCAL PARK 

            16       FUNDING.

            17                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Item 2, local park 

            18    funding.  Tim Hogsett, please.

            19                  MR. HOGSETT:  Good morning, 

            20    Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission.  I'm Tim 

            21    Hogsett from the Recreation Grants Program in the 

            22    State Parks Division.  Item 2 is proposed funding 

            23    for local parks outdoor recreation grants.  We 

            24    have received, as of our July 31st, 2000 deadline, 

            25    a total of 46 applications, requesting $17,322,833 


             1    in matching funds. 

             2                  You can find in Exhibit A a listing 

             3    of the projects.  All projects have been scored, 

             4    rank ordered.  Site visits have been performed on 

             5    all of these projects.  And the -- we are 

             6    recommending funding for the top 12 applications, 

             7    for $5,511,794 in matching funds.  And the 

             8    recommendation for the record is funding for 

             9    projects listed in Exhibit A in the amount of 

            10    $5,511,794 is approved as described for individual 

            11    projects in Exhibit B.  I'd be glad to answer any 

            12    questions that you might have. 

            13                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  If there are no 

            14    questions at this time, we'd take public comment.  

            15    The Chair would first like to call Anne Ochoa.  

            16    Anne, if you would come forward and please speak 

            17    to us. 

            18                  And Gilbert Allison, if you'd be 

            19    prepared to speak after Ms. Ochoa.

            20                  MS. OCHOA:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  

            21    With me today from Lago Vista -- I am a city 

            22    council member of Lago Vista.  And with me today 

            23    is two citizens, first Dorothy Louderbach, who is 

            24    a concerned citizen.  She has been involved with 

            25    our funding for our grant application since the 


             1    very beginning.  This has been going on for a 

             2    couple of years.  And also our mayor, Dennis 

             3    Jones, is here today.  And so they came, and we're 

             4    expressing interest.

             5                  I stood before you six months ago, 

             6    having not been funded, and thanking you for your 

             7    consideration.  And I do so today.  And also six 

             8    months ago we promised to do better.  Lago Vista 

             9    did do better with the help of Tim Hogsett and 

            10    Elaine Dill of your staff.  And we also thank them 

            11    for their help.  We improved in our score. 

            12                  Last July our total score was 79, 

            13    and this year it was 97, almost a 20-point 

            14    improvement.  Last July we were ranked number 26 

            15    out of 47.  This year we were number 16.  What 

            16    counts, though, to me, is in the process we 

            17    created a much better recreational facility to the 

            18    existing baseball stadium and the projects of 

            19    pool, wading pool, tennis courts and picnic area. 

            20                  We added a pavilion, trails, a wild 

            21    scape demonstration project, a play fountain, a 

            22    sand volley ball court, slide structures, and 

            23    xeroscaping.  We also included eight new civic 

            24    organizations as donors to those already 

            25    contributing.  So we did much better this time 


             1    around. 

             2                  Unfortunately, the bar was raised.  

             3    Six months ago, as you may remember, the scores 

             4    ranged from 93 to 117, and this time it was 107 to 

             5    138, so we missed the bar.  There's a lot of 

             6    numbers involved with this process, and numbers 

             7    are good.  They take bias out and level the 

             8    playing field, but they don't reflect a mandate 

             9    that drives those of us from Lago Vista and why 

            10    you'll probably be seeing me here again in six 

            11    months. 

            12                  We are located in a beautiful area 

            13    that borders on Lake Travis.  Unfortunately, you 

            14    can't really teach children how to swim in a lake.  

            15    We also don't have any public parks in our city.  

            16    They are all privately owned by the property 

            17    owners association. 

            18                  So our mandate was given to us in a 

            19    special election which was held last January.  In 

            20    a city with one of the highest tax rates in the 

            21    state -- nothing to brag about, believe me -- our 

            22    voters came out in record numbers to approve a 

            23    bond election, and the bond election was what 

            24    allocated our matching funds to this project. 

            25                  We promised during that election 


             1    that the funds would be well spent.  And we wanted 

             2    to get the biggest bang for our buck.  So they're 

             3    going to be spent for the top of the line 

             4    recreational complex.  But simply put, we need 

             5    this grant to fulfill that promise.  So we're 

             6    going to reapply.  You'll see us make an even 

             7    better project this time, and we are probably 

             8    going to be a little bit more creative in thinking 

             9    out of the box. 

            10                  Ladies and gentlemen, thank you once 

            11    again for your time and consideration.  We will be 

            12    back, and I sincerely hope we'll be back to thank 

            13    you for money well spent in Lago Vista.  Thank you 

            14    very much. 

            15                  MR. SANSOM:  Thank you. 

            16                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Appreciate your 

            17    persistence.  And I wish you every success.

            18                  Mr. Allison, if you'd come forward. 

            19                  And Mary Elliott, if you'd come 

            20    next.

            21                  MR. ALLISON:  Good morning.  I'm 

            22    Gilbert Allison from Brookside Village.  With me 

            23    is Councilman Joe Milstead.  I am a volunteer and 

            24    President of Planning and Zoning in Brookside 

            25    Village, Republican Chairman for Precinct 26. 


             1                  Brookside Village a very small town 

             2    in Northern Brazoria County.  It's 40 percent 

             3    minority and over 50 percent retired.  Since we 

             4    have no parks, private or public in our city or 

             5    recreational facilities anywhere near us without 

             6    leaving the county or driving a long-distance, a 

             7    concerted effort was made to build a park. 

             8                  Working hand in hand with Mr. Seffel 

             9    and Mr. Logan, all of Texas Parks and Wildlife, 

            10    Mr. Hansen of Brazoria County Parks and Wildlife 

            11    and Mrs. Shanklin, a grant writer on loan from 

            12    Pearland Independent School District, we've built 

            13    a ten-year master plan and worked back and forth 

            14    the application until we answered all the 

            15    questions that we were asked and added everything 

            16    to this grant to get points that they could tell 

            17    us we needed.

            18                  Based on the work that had been done 

            19    and the information given to us, our grant writer 

            20    had from the state, she scored our grant somewhere 

            21    between 87 and 92 points.  But what bothered us 

            22    more is that Mr. Logan of Texas Parks and Wildlife 

            23    had us at 89 points and showed the three of us the 

            24    numbers then told us how we could get some 

            25    additional points which were in the range from 


             1    three to eight points to add to our total, which 

             2    would bring our total to somewhere between 92 and 

             3    97.  So when we found out from Mr. Landale that we 

             4    had only scored 75 points, we were shocked and 

             5    would like to know what happened to our points.

             6                  What we would like to know, being a 

             7    small minority city in the State of Texas for over 

             8    40 years and never asking for anything from the 

             9    Texas Parks and Wildlife before, who can we work 

            10    with and can help us have a park and a place for 

            11    our seniors and our kids to have a safe place to 

            12    play outside?  Because from our end of it, we got 

            13    bad information and unreal expectations from the 

            14    people we thought knew.  Thank you. 

            15                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Thank you, 

            16    Mr. Allison.  I'm sure Mr. Hogsett and his staff 

            17    will be more than happy to work with you and help 

            18    rectify the confusion and do everything we can to 

            19    ensure your success in a future round.

            20                  MR. ALLISON:  Thank you. 

            21                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Mary Elliott. 

            22                  And Janet Simpson, if you'd be 

            23    prepared to speak after Ms. Elliot.  Good morning. 

            24                  MS. ELLIOTT:  Good morning.  I'm 

            25    Mary Elliott with the City of Arlington Parks 


             1    Department, and I'm just here to thank the 

             2    Commission and the staff of Texas Parks and 

             3    Wildlife for consideration and approval of our 

             4    grant application.  Thank you. 

             5                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Thank you, 

             6    Ms. Elliott.

             7                  Janet Simpson, City of Denton. 

             8                  Bob Duke, if you'd be prepared to 

             9    speak after Ms. Simpson. 

            10                  MS. SIMPSON:   Good morning.  My 

            11    name is Janet Simpson, and I'm the Assistant 

            12    Director of the Parks and Recreation Department 

            13    for the City of Denton.  I'm here today really 

            14    just to extend our appreciation for the funding of 

            15    the Cross Timbers Park grant.  This is really a 

            16    unique project for our community in that it's 

            17    really the first opportunity that we've had to do 

            18    some preservation/conservation in our city. 

            19                  It was really a grass roots effort 

            20    in our community.  The residents in the 

            21    subdivision next to this property initiated the 

            22    project, helped write the grant, went out and did 

            23    fund-raising, brought in support from our ISD and 

            24    universities and local businesses and 

            25    corporations. 


             1                  So we really had a broad range of 

             2    support, and it's really an important project for 

             3    our city, as we're experiencing very fast growth 

             4    at this point and watching our landscape 

             5    disappear.

             6                  I'd also like to thank the Texas 

             7    Parks and Wildlife staff, Joel Seffel, Elaine 

             8    Dill, and Tim Hogsett as always were very helpful 

             9    and very supportive to us in putting this 

            10    application together and answering questions for 

            11    us at all times.  So once again, just thank you 

            12    for your support. 

            13                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Thank you very much.  

            14    Bob Duke?  And Dock Jackson, if you'd be prepared 

            15    to speak after Mr. Duke.  Good morning. 

            16                  MR. DUKE:  Good morning.  And I'm 

            17    here on behalf of Sienna Plantation Municipal 

            18    Utility District Number 2 and Fort Bend County.  

            19    And I want to express thanks to the Commission and 

            20    to the staff of the grants program for approving 

            21    the grant that was submitted for Sienna 

            22    Plantation.  They have tried on a number of 

            23    occasions to get a grant for other projects and 

            24    were unsuccessful.  So they are thankful that they 

            25    are successful in this round.  And I would echo 


             1    appreciation for staff's efforts in helping make 

             2    this successful, as well.  Thank you. 

             3                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Thank you, Mr. Duke. 

             4                  Dock Jackson.

             5                  And Sandra Chipley, if you'd be 

             6    prepared to speak after Mr. Jackson. 

             7                  MR. JACKSON:  Good morning.  I am 

             8    Dock Jackson.  I'm a council member from the City 

             9    of Bastrop.  And I'd just like to thank the 

            10    Commission for looking at our grant and giving us 

            11    the -- hopefully, the ability to continue with the 

            12    parks system that we're developing in Bastrop.  

            13    The Bob Bryant Park is the park that we submitted 

            14    for grant.  And looking at the scores, it seems 

            15    like you agree with us that it is an excellent 

            16    project. 

            17                  We're real excited to bring more 

            18    parks to the City of Bastrop.  This is going into 

            19    a new neighborhood that it will be their first 

            20    park.

            21                  The gentleman that was really 

            22    helpful in donating some of the land and working 

            23    with us, unfortunately, passed this last year.  

            24    And it definitely will be a tribute to him.  And 

            25    we'd just like to thank you, thank your staff for 


             1    working with us, as well as the grant writers that 

             2    worked with us.  It's truly a wonderful project 

             3    that you'll be excited to participate in and, 

             4    hopefully, you'll get a chance to see it when we 

             5    complete it.

             6                  And I just want to thank you so 

             7    much.  The citizens, the mayor and council, 

             8    everyone is really excited about the project.  And 

             9    we'd just like to thank you publicly for all of 

            10    your work that you do for the local park fund and 

            11    everything else.  So thank you. 

            12                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Thank you.  

            13    Ms. Chipley? 

            14                  MS. CHIPLEY:  My name is Sandra 

            15    Chipley.  I'm with the City of Bastrop Parks 

            16    Board.  I'd like to thank the Commission and Texas 

            17    Parks and Wildlife for the consideration of our 

            18    grant.  We're thrilled that we have rated so high 

            19    on your list.  This is the first park west of the 

            20    Colorado River for Bastrop.  And we're just really 

            21    excited to think we can develop on that side of 

            22    the river now.  Thank you. 

            23                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Thank you, ma'am.  

            24    That concludes the public comment.  Are there any 

            25    questions or follow-up from Mr. Hogsett on this 


             1    from the Commission?  The Chair would entertain a 

             2    motion. 

             3                  COMMISSIONER WATSON:  So moved.

             4                  COMMISSIONER HEATH:  Second.

             5                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Motion and a second 

             6    by Commissioner Heath.  All in favor?  Opposed?  

             7    Motion carries.

             8                      (Motion passed unanimously.)

             9       "Funding for projects listed in Exhibit A in 

            10       the amount of $5,511,794.00 is approved, as 

            11       described for individual projects in Exhibit B."


            13       AGENDA ITEM NO. 3:  ACTION - INDOOR RECREATION 

            14       GRANTS.

            15                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Next item, indoor 

            16    recreation grants.  Mr. Hogsett, please.

            17                  MR. SANSOM:  Mr. Chairman, I'd like 

            18    to take the opportunity to, before we move to 

            19    indoor, to remind you and the audience that 

            20    yesterday Mr. Hogsett briefed on you a coming up 

            21    pilot program for small communities which will 

            22    have the possibility of providing a bit more of a 

            23    user friendly process for those communities which 

            24    have unfortunately sometimes fallen through the 

            25    cracks in this program.  And I think it's 


             1    particularly apropos from some of the comments 

             2    this morning.  And we would look forward to 

             3    working with these communities to put that into 

             4    place. 

             5                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Andy, I'd also like 

             6    to recognize for the record that State 

             7    Representative Judy Holly has written the 

             8    Department a letter supporting that initiative to 

             9    aid small communities.  And we'd just make that 

            10    part of the record of today's meeting, please.  

            11    Continue, please. 

            12                   MR. HOGSETT:  Item Number 3 is -- 

            13    once again for the record, I'm Tim Hogsett from 

            14    Recreation Grants Program and State Parks 

            15    Division. 

            16                  Item Number 3 is indoor recreation 

            17    grants.  We have received 14 applications by the 

            18    July 31st, 2000 deadline requesting a total of 

            19    $7,088,375 in matching funds for indoor recreation 

            20    facilities.  All those applications have been 

            21    scored and rank ordered.  And you can find the 

            22    rank ordered proposal in Exhibit A.  All 14 sites 

            23    have been visited.  We are recommending today 

            24    approval for the top six applications in the 

            25    amount of $3,325,000 in matching funds. 


             1                  And the recommendation from the 

             2    staff is that funding for projects listed in 

             3    Exhibit A in the amount of $3,325,000 is approved, 

             4    as described for individual projects in Exhibit B.  

             5    And I'd be glad to answer any questions that you 

             6    have. 

             7                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  There is no public 

             8    comment on this item today.  Any questions or 

             9    comment from the Commission? 

            10                  COMMISSIONER ANGELO:  Move approval.

            11                  COMMISSIONER IDSAL:  Second.

            12                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Motion and a second.  

            13    All in favor?  Any opposed?  Motion carries.  

            14    Thank you, Mr. Hogsett.

            15                      (Motion passed unanimously.) 

            16       "Funding for projects listed in Exhibit A in 

            17       the amount of $3,325,000.00 is approved, as 

            18       described for individual projects in Exhibit B."


            20       AGENDA ITEM NO. 4:  BRIEFING - BIG TIME TEXAS 


            22                        (WHEREUPON, a briefing

            23                        item was presented to the 

            24                        Commissioners, after which, 

            25                        the following proceedings


             1                        were had:)

             2       AGENDA ITEM NO. 5:  ACTION - LEGISLATIVE RULE 

             3       REVIEW.

             4                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Our next item is 

             5    Legislative Rule Review.  Mr. McCarty, would you 

             6    shepherd us through this one for us today?

             7                  MR. McCARTY:  Mr. Chairman, 

             8    Commissioners.  I'm Gene McCarty, Chief of Staff 

             9    with Texas Parks and Wildlife.  I'm here to 

            10    introduce the continuation of our regulatory 

            11    review process.  As you know, Senate Bill 176 of 

            12    the 76th Legislature directed all state agencies 

            13    to review existing regulations no later than every 

            14    four years after the rule becomes final. 

            15                  The review is an assessment of 

            16    whether the reasons for initially adopting the 

            17    regulations continue to exist.  Parks and Wildlife 

            18    has ten chapters in its Administrative Code.  In 

            19    November you adopted a review of four of these 

            20    chapters, Chapter 51 for executive, Chapter 52 for 

            21    fish and wildlife, Chapter 55 for law enforcement 

            22    and Chapter 61 for design and construction.

            23                  Today we bring before you for your 

            24    consideration the review of three additional 

            25    chapters, Chapter 53 for finance, Chapter 59 for 


             1    parks, and Chapter 69 for resource protection.  

             2    And I'll let Suzy Whittenton through Chapter 53 

             3    for finance. 

             4                  MS. WHITTENTON:  Thank you.  For the 

             5    record, my name is Suzy Whittenton.  I'm the Chief 

             6    Financial Officer.  Get the right screen on here.  

             7    The staff across all the divisions here at the 

             8    agency has reviewed Chapter 53 which is the 

             9    finance chapter and has recommended some minor 

            10    housekeeping type amendments.  And I'll highlight 

            11    the more significant ones here. 

            12                  Some of the -- a lot of them have to 

            13    do with updating the text to reflect the changes 

            14    in the new point of sale system.  We've updated 

            15    the fees and eliminated references to surety bonds 

            16    and letters of credit which are not included in 

            17    the new system. 

            18                  Another amendment would require the 

            19    senior Louisiana residents fishing in Texas waters 

            20    to possess a Louisiana fishing license.  The 

            21    change basically reinstates the reciprocal fishing 

            22    agreement for seniors and was something that the 

            23    Commission approved previously.  We were waiting 

            24    for Louisiana to have their reciprocal rules in 

            25    place. 


             1                  Also, eligibility requirements were 

             2    updated -- were clarified by adding a list that 

             3    specifically states who is eligible for the lower 

             4    special resident fishing licenses at a fee of $6.  

             5    We've listed those people who are eligible for the 

             6    reduced fees.  And the impact of that is that it 

             7    excludes the general commercial fishermen, the 

             8    fishing licenses because other commercial fishing 

             9    licenses are treated differently.  So those 

            10    license holders would pay a different fee.

            11                  We've also recommended adding or 

            12    removing references to license permit and transfer 

            13    fees.  This is basically for housekeeping 

            14    purposes, to more accurately reflect the statutory 

            15    authority.  We've also recommended changes to the 

            16    Lifetime License Endowment Fund investment policy 

            17    to reflect the -- to be in accordance with the 

            18    investment policy approved by the Commission.

            19                  Other changes include dealing with 

            20    Subchapter B, stamps.  The previous language 

            21    exempted nongame and endangered species stamps 

            22    from provisions regarding sale of obsolete stamps.  

            23    There are also changes dealing with the Texas 

            24    Freshwater Fisheries Center, the proposed 

            25    amendments dealing with the Fisheries Center 


             1    basically eliminate the specific fee schedule and 

             2    have replaced it with not to exceed the $6 

             3    entrance fee, as determined by the Executive 

             4    Director. 

             5                  And finally, there were other 

             6    changes for general cleanup, such as removing 

             7    redundant language, relocating text and other 

             8    minor edits.  And lastly, I just need to mention 

             9    a -- another revision to Subchapter B which was 

            10    minor.  But it was not published in the Texas 

            11    Register.  But since it is not a substantive 

            12    change, it can still be adopted today. 

            13                  This change is needed to clarify 

            14    that the individual stamps and the collectors' 

            15    edition stamp package can be sold at different 

            16    prices.  They can either be sold at face value or 

            17    at an established price for the entire package.  

            18    And that's all of the recommended changes I had.  

            19    Unless you have any other questions, I can turn it 

            20    over to Walt Dabney. 

            21                  MR. DABNEY:  Good morning, 

            22    Commissioners.  My name is Walt Dabney, State Park 

            23    Director.  We've got a few administrative changes 

            24    in 59 to go over this morning. 

            25                  The first is the -- in historic 


             1    structures, generally speaking, you would not make 

             2    modifications to such a structure for convenience 

             3    purposes.  However, we needed to clarify this 

             4    regulation, where we have a problem with health or 

             5    safety or access by handicapped populations to 

             6    that.  This gives us the opportunity to be able to 

             7    make those modifications.

             8                  In 103 it removes a reference to 

             9    automatic renewal of contracts so that we can, in 

            10    fact, at the end of a contract period go out and 

            11    solicit bids for -- competitive bids for new 

            12    concessioner certainly the existing concessioner 

            13    would compete for that.  It creates a process 

            14    also, specific process, for how we go about 

            15    selecting that concessioner -- going through a 

            16    competitive bid process. 

            17                  104 discusses types of concession 

            18    contracts.  It requires that we, in fact, put a 

            19    long-term contract together for major concessions.  

            20    It provides us an opportunity in smaller 

            21    concessions or shorter-term concessions to 

            22    actually go out for a prospectus as well. 

            23                  In 105 the contract terms 

            24    currently -- this gives us the ability in 105 to 

            25    extend the concession period.  If the concessioner 


             1    adds new facility, puts money into the facilities, 

             2    this would give us the chance to negotiate a 

             3    longer contract so that they could recoup their 

             4    investment.  In the case of short-term 

             5    contracts -- and a good example of this would be a 

             6    vending machine operation -- instead of one year, 

             7    that we could extend it to two.  We have trouble 

             8    getting somebody interested to come in for just 

             9    one year.  If we, at the end of that time, could 

            10    go out for an opportunity for someone to come in 

            11    and replace them, it's hardly worth their time.  

            12    This gives us a chance to extend that to two 

            13    years.

            14                  In the case of franchise fees, 

            15    currently we have no ability to assess a penalty 

            16    if you don't pay your  franchise fees, if you're a 

            17    concessioner, back to the state.  Currently, we 

            18    send the bill to collection, but there's no 

            19    penalty for not doing that.  This would give us 

            20    the opportunity to assess a penalty for delinquent 

            21    fees.  It also gives us the regulatory ability, if 

            22    there were, for example, a flood or something that 

            23    interrupted the concession operation -- fire would 

            24    be another example possibly, we could waive those 

            25    delinquent fees or postpone those until you got 


             1    back on your feet.  Our interest is not in 

             2    penalizing the concessioner.

             3                  I think I hit that one.  The next 

             4    one in Section 63 and 64, is the section that 

             5    actually deals with the activities that are 

             6    allowed on state park units.  And we received 16 

             7    comments that came in from the hang gliding and 

             8    paragliding community that requested that in two 

             9    locations, Enchanted Rock State Park and Elephant 

            10    Mountain Wildlife Management Area -- actually 

            11    Enchanted Rock State natural area and Elephant 

            12    Mountain Wildlife Management Area that we allow -- 

            13    that we add hang gliding as an activity that would 

            14    be permitted. 

            15                  In discussions with the staff, 

            16    several concerns.  Hang gliding did, in fact, 

            17    occur at Enchanted Rock prior to it becoming a 

            18    state park.  Now Enchanted Rock, certainly by -- 

            19    in relation to its size, is one of our most 

            20    visited areas.  We are currently turning people 

            21    away on many weekends because we simply do not 

            22    have room for them.  It's a natural area.  We 

            23    would not be going back in there to do clearings 

            24    and that kind of thing. 

            25                  The letters that we got said that 


             1    approximately one acre area is needed for a launch 

             2    area, a five-acre area would be needed to land, 

             3    assuming that the person flying is an accomplished 

             4    pilot.  We have so many people wandering around 

             5    now at Enchanted Rock, we don't have any open 

             6    spaces that we think are conducive to landing hang 

             7    gliders.  And certainly the launch site is the 

             8    primary destination for people coming to visit 

             9    that site. 

            10                  They're climbing up the side of 

            11    that, mixing hang gliders with it.  That existing 

            12    activity would not be compatible in our minds and 

            13    would be a safety concern. 

            14                  At Elephant Mountain the issue is 

            15    very different.  Visitation is not the problem 

            16    there.  Elephant Mountain, I think, beginning in 

            17    '87, with the reintroduction of the desert big 

            18    horn sheep, is now an area that has become our 

            19    primary stock location for transplant herds of the 

            20    desert big horn into other locales in Texas.  

            21    Desert big horn sheep are very secretive animals.  

            22    They like isolation. 

            23                  Their habitat, especially escape 

            24    terrain, is at the base of these cliffs.  

            25    Launching hang gliders from this could, in fact, 


             1    put a stress on that population.  You're going to 

             2    receive a briefing in a little while on big horn 

             3    sheep, coincidentally.  We feel -- the wildlife 

             4    management staff feels it would not be a 

             5    compatible use. 

             6                  In addition, you are in a very 

             7    isolated area and medical assistance and emergency 

             8    assistance on a very small staff would be tough to 

             9    provide, and there's really an access problem as 

            10    well.  There is no usable road that goes to the 

            11    top of this area.

            12                  The staff in this instance, at this 

            13    time for these locations, recommends no change in 

            14    the existing status.

            15                  The last one has to do with 

            16    Section 4263101 (sic).  Those are primarily word 

            17    changes, simply stated, changing such thing as 

            18    Indian rock art sites so to petroglyph and 

            19    pictograph sites which are accepted terminology.  

            20    If you have any questions, I'd be glad to answer 

            21    them; otherwise, I will turn the presentation over 

            22    to the next person. 

            23                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Questions?  Thank 

            24    you, Mr. Dabney. 

            25                  MR. SWEENEY:  Good morning, 


             1    Chairman, Commissioners.  I'm Bob Sweeney.  I'm 

             2    the next person.  And today we're talking about 

             3    review and readoption.

             4                  MR. SANSOM:  Thank you for 

             5    clarifying that.

             6                  MR. SWEENEY:  My strength is the 

             7    obvious.  Turning to Chapter 69, the review and 

             8    read option of Chapter 69, we've already been 

             9    through Chapters 53 and 59.  And here we're 

            10    talking about the resource protection chapter and 

            11    all the subchapters under it. 

            12                  And one I've done on this slide is 

            13    highlighted in green the subchapters that we're 

            14    proposing for readoption without any changes, and 

            15    in yellow I've highlighted the ones that we're 

            16    proposing for readoption, with some amendments.  

            17    The only section that is outside this group of 

            18    subchapters is 69.8 of Subchapter A, and that is 

            19    covered in a separate item in this commission 

            20    meeting. 

            21                  So 69.8 is out of this group, but 

            22    everything else that we're referencing here today, 

            23    all these subchapters we're proposing either for 

            24    readoption with no changes where they're green or 

            25    readoption with changes where they're yellow, 


             1    pursuant to the legislative mandate that Gene 

             2    McCarty has described. 

             3                  So with that I'll move on to the 

             4    motion, that we recommend that the Parks and 

             5    Wildlife Commission adopt.  And I'm available for 

             6    any questions. 

             7                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  If there are not any 

             8    questions, the Chair at this time will take public 

             9    comment.  We have two people that wish to speak, 

            10    Henry Wise, if you'd come forward at this time.  

            11    And Fred and Jan Burns, you'll be up after 

            12    Mr. Wise. 

            13                  MR. WISE:  Thank you, 

            14    Mr. Commissioner, Commissioners.  My name is Henry 

            15    Wise.  I represent the 311 Texas members of the 

            16    United States Hang Gliding Association, the Texas 

            17    Free Flight Association and the Hang Gliding 

            18    Association, the Houston Hang Gliding Association. 

            19                  The USHGA is the recognized national 

            20    governing body for hang gliding and paragliding 

            21    ing in the United States, coordinating with both 

            22    the Federal Aeronautic Administration and all 

            23    other international flight associations. 

            24                  We're requesting that hang gliding 

            25    and paragliding be added to the list of approved 


             1    activities on public lands in general, not just 

             2    two sites.  Hang gliding has been a sport in Texas 

             3    since the 1970s and paragliding since the 1990s 

             4    and both have enjoyed an excellent safety record.

             5                  We believe it's important that the 

             6    participants in hang gliding and paragliding be 

             7    allowed to use selected public lands for these 

             8    activities.  We used to fly at Elephant Mountain 

             9    Wildlife Management Area in West Texas and 

            10    Enchanted Rock in the Hill Country, but the 

            11    activities were stopped when the landowners sold 

            12    or gave the properties to the State of Texas. 

            13                  We have been told on numerous 

            14    occasions since then that hang gliding and 

            15    paragliding is not on the approved activities 

            16    list, and this has prevented us from trying to 

            17    seek out new sites on public lands. 

            18                  We currently have only one mountain 

            19    flying site left in Texas.  It's a historic site 

            20    with a monument on the top, and it's privately 

            21    owned.  This landowner is elderly, and if she were 

            22    to donate, sell or will the property to the State 

            23    of Texas under the current set of regulations, we 

            24    would lose this site as well. 

            25                  We have been flying this site since 


             1    the late 1970s and have an excellent safety 

             2    record.  There has never been a hang gliding or 

             3    paragliding fatality there. 

             4                  We've tried to obtain permission 

             5    from other landowners in Texas to utilize their 

             6    properties, but they either don't want us on their 

             7    property, or they set the lease fee too high.  

             8    While we understand that being on the approved 

             9    activities list does not automatically allow us to 

            10    participate in these activities on state lands, it 

            11    would give us the opportunity to discuss the 

            12    possibility of flying selected sites with the 

            13    individual park administrators. 

            14                  The United States National Park 

            15    Service, U.S. Forest Service and a number of park 

            16    departments in other states have, in conjunction 

            17    with the United States Hang Gliding Association 

            18    successfully set up maintained access and use 

            19    programs at various parks.  These sites include 

            20    Yosemite National Park in California, the Lincoln 

            21    National Forest in New Mexico, the Washington 

            22    National Forest in Oklahoma and Mount Nebo and 

            23    Mount Magazine State Parks in Arkansas.  Instead 

            24    of driving out of state, we prefer to stay in the 

            25    State of Texas to fly. 


             1                  The USHGA provides a number of 

             2    services, two of which would be utilized in any 

             3    program set up on state land.  The first is a 

             4    pilot proficiency program.  This system is used 

             5    throughout the United States to determine the 

             6    skill level of a pilot.  Each flying site is rated 

             7    according to the difficulty of the site and other 

             8    contributing factors. 

             9                  In order to fly a site, the pilot 

            10    must possess a skill rating at least as high as 

            11    that required by the flying site. 

            12                  MR. SANSOM:  Thank you, sir.  Thank 

            13    you very much. 

            14                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Actually, Mr. Wise, 

            15    since you're currently answering what was one of 

            16    my questions, would you please continue? 

            17                  MR. WISE:  Yes.  Pilots obtain their 

            18    ratings by a combination of written and flying 

            19    tests plus a required minimum number of hours 

            20    flown.  The higher the rating, the more flying 

            21    time you are required to have.  Members of the 

            22    United States Hang Gliding Association are given 

            23    rating cards and are always pleased to show them 

            24    when asked. 

            25                  Secondly, the United States Hang 


             1    Gliding Association provides both individual and 

             2    site-specific liability insurance.  This policy is 

             3    a combined single limit bodily injury and property 

             4    damaged liability insurance of $1 million. 

             5                  In addition, all USHGA rated pilots 

             6    are required to sign a waiver of liability 

             7    releasing landowners and other third parties of 

             8    liability in cases of pilot injury.  I'd be happy 

             9    to provide you with a copy of this waiver, as 

            10    well.

            11                  In addition, to the USHGA services, 

            12    hang glider and paraglider pilots are also willing 

            13    to sign additional site-specific waivers that 

            14    release landowners from all liabilities.  It would 

            15    be easy to include such a waiver as part of any 

            16    program we had to set up. 

            17                  If hang gliding and paragliding are 

            18    included in the list of approved activities on 

            19    state lands, we could then enter into discussions 

            20    with administrators at the individual areas that 

            21    are of interest to us to set up a program that 

            22    would be tailored to each site. 

            23                  We believe that there are a number 

            24    of sites in Texas where hang gliding and 

            25    paragliding could safely be performed.  However, 


             1    without the -- without being on the state's 

             2    approved activities list, we can't even begin to 

             3    think of setting up these programs.  I had a 

             4    comment that I was going to make.  But I hope that 

             5    answers all your questions. 

             6                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Any questions?   

             7                  VICE-CHAIR DINKINS:  Is what you're 

             8    saying, that you're not going to propose other 

             9    sites than Enchanted Rock or Elephant Mountain 

            10    unless hang gliding or paragliding is an activity 

            11    on the list of approved activities? 

            12                  MR. WISE:  What I'm saying is, my 

            13    understanding is that the definitions -- what has 

            14    stopped us before from going to any other site in 

            15    Texas on public lands was that we've always 

            16    stumbled on this road block that it's not on the 

            17    approved list.  And if it's not on the approved 

            18    list, they won't talk to us.  We understand that 

            19    if we go to these sites and try to get in, and 

            20    we're on the approved list, it doesn't 

            21    automatically mean we can fly there. 

            22                  Obviously, we are also interested in 

            23    public safety as well.  And we don't want to cause 

            24    any problems.

            25                  VICE-CHAIR DINKINS:  Can you give us 


             1    an example of another site or two within the state 

             2    that you do have an interest in going to? 

             3                  MR. WISE:  Well, the primary one, 

             4    obviously, for us is Elephant Mountain.  We used 

             5    to fly there, and it was a wonderful place to fly.  

             6    Another site that I had looked at very briefly was 

             7    Lost Maples State Park, which looks like it may be 

             8    interesting.  That would take more time on our 

             9    part to look at the site in more detail to see if 

            10    it is compatible. 

            11                  VICE-CHAIR DINKINS:  Thank you. 

            12                  MR. WISE:  Also, when it comes to 

            13    dealing with the big horn sheep, the concerns that 

            14    you have at Elephant Mountain with the big horn 

            15    sheep being scared off by us, we had a similar 

            16    situation back in the 1980s with the Owens Valley 

            17    in California with big horn sheep in the -- I 

            18    believe it was the White Mountains out there.  And 

            19    they found that there was no problems.  We seemed 

            20    to be compatible with them out there, as well. 

            21                  COMMISSIONER HEATH:  Where do you go 

            22    now to practice your sport? 

            23                  MR. WISE:  Well, we have a lease on 

            24    a hill out near Lake LBJ.  This is the one that I 

            25    was discussing earlier.  There's also some tow 


             1    sites that are available as well.  The towing is 

             2    another form of getting up in the air, but it's 

             3    not -- some people don't enjoy going off of a tow 

             4    as much as they do off of the mountains.  The 

             5    scenery is, obviously, just flat lands.  It's not 

             6    as scenic.

             7                  It's also -- hang gliding, when it 

             8    started off, was more of a mountain sport and 

             9    later on towing came into play.  So it's getting 

            10    back more towards the traditional form of flying 

            11    as well. 

            12                  COMMISSIONER HEATH:  Are there any 

            13    regulations, state or federal, that govern what 

            14    you do?

            15                  MR. WISE:  Well, we have to follow 

            16    all the regulations by the FAA.  The FAA does not 

            17    regulate the sport directly.  They have turned 

            18    those -- what they call a self-regulating sport.  

            19    The United States Hang Gliding Association does 

            20    all the regulations for the sport in this country.

            21                  COMMISSIONER HEATH:  So if I wanted 

            22    to go out with a hang glider tomorrow and jump off 

            23    the side of a cliff or whatever you do, I could do 

            24    so?

            25                  MR. WISE:  Within reason.


             1                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Punts.

             2                  MR. WISE:  Most sites that we fly 

             3    everybody knows about.  And if they don't know who 

             4    you are and what your capabilities are, they will 

             5    question you before they will let you go off.  A 

             6    lot of times if you're new to the area we'll look 

             7    at your rating card, as well, to make sure that 

             8    you're compatible with the flying issues that we 

             9    have at that time.

            10                  COMMISSIONER HEATH:  My comment 

            11    would just be to staff, if there's a way we can 

            12    accommodate -- and I know we've looked 

            13    specifically at these two locations.  But get 

            14    creative to support this use would be -- I'd 

            15    certainly encourage it. 

            16                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  We have another 

            17    speaker before Mr. Dabney comes back. 

            18                  COMMISSIONER IDSAL:  I have another 

            19    question.  Is an ultralight the same thing as a 

            20    hang glider?

            21                  MR. WISE:  Originally, ultralights  

            22    were nothing more than hang gliders with a small 

            23    motor put on them.  But today if you took the 

            24    motor off, they wouldn't fly properly at all.  

            25    They would be unstable and would probably crash.  


             1    So, no, they are not the same.

             2                  COMMISSIONER IDSAL:  But an 

             3    ultralight can be launched from almost anywhere?

             4                  MR. WISE:  Yes.  It's got an engine 

             5    so it can be launched anywhere that you have a 

             6    large enough field to launch it from.

             7                  COMMISSIONER IDSAL:  Do you know, 

             8    other than Lost Maples, are there any other places 

             9    in the state, that you know, either privately or 

            10    publicly, that are being used on any level at all 

            11    for hang gliding?

            12                  MR. WISE:  Public lands? 

            13                  COMMISSIONER IDSAL:  Public or 

            14    private.

            15                  MR. WISE:  There are several.  As I 

            16    said before, there are several sites around the 

            17    state where they are towing behind either 

            18    ultralights or behind cars or trucks.  There's 

            19    several very small sites 35 feet high to 50, 60 

            20    feet high that are being used as training hills.

            21                  COMMISSIONER IDSAL:  What kind of 

            22    height do you need?  I'm sure that's not the only 

            23    thing you need, but how --

            24                  MR. WISE:  Well, no.  The higher the 

            25    better, obviously.  For a training hill, in 


             1    Houston we have a site that's 35-feet high that we 

             2    use.  In Austin they have a training hill that's 

             3    about 50 to 60 feet high.  In El Paso they have a 

             4    training hill -- or they used to when I learned 

             5    back in the '70s -- that was about 150-feet high. 

             6                  Depending on the conditions, it can 

             7    be anything from -- if you're on the coast, it 

             8    could be 20 to 30 feet high, and you could stay 

             9    up; or if you're inland, you probably -- the site 

            10    out at -- out in Kingsland that we fly is 425 feet 

            11    high.  And that's considered to be kind of small. 

            12                  COMMISSIONER IDSAL:  Okay. 

            13                  COMMISSIONER ANGELO:  I'd like to 

            14    second the comments of Commissioner Heath with 

            15    respect to doing work with this to see if there 

            16    are some places they could be compatible.  I do 

            17    think that the two sites that have been discussed 

            18    today have significant liabilities that would make 

            19    it difficult for us to approve the activity in 

            20    state parks.

            21                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  My last question, I 

            22    think at this time, Mr. Wise, would be, would your 

            23    group, you think, be willing to bear some special 

            24    use fees, such as rock climbers currently pay, to 

            25    use some of our facilities?  In other words, 


             1    special use charge over and above the normal park 

             2    entry fee? 

             3                  MR. WISE:  They would if it's within 

             4    reason, yes.  There are sites that I've discussed 

             5    here where they do charge a small fee, yeah, for 

             6    the privilege of hang gliding.

             7                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  For instance, the 

             8    one that's near Lake LBJ, what would it cost a 

             9    person to go there and use it? 

            10                  MR. WISE:  Well, that's a 

            11    privately-held site.  We have a lease on the 

            12    property.  That one there, it's an annual fee 

            13    only.

            14                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  I see.  Okay.  All 

            15    right.  Thank you very much.  At this time Fred 

            16    and Jan Burns, if there's something one of you 

            17    would like to add that we haven't touched on, we'd 

            18    be interested in hearing it. 

            19                  MR. BURNS:  Mr. Chairman, I'm 

            20    Fred Burns, and I'm vice-president of Austin Air 

            21    Sports, Incorporated, a hang gliding school.  And 

            22    your question, Palo Duro Canyon looks mighty good.  

            23    I was out there this past summer. 

            24                  COMMISSIONER IDSAL:  Well, that was 

            25    in my mind.


             1                  MR. BURNS:  It's a gorgeous spot.  

             2    They have nice launches and great places to land 

             3    and wide open spaces.  And it would be fine if we 

             4    can do that.  And that's all I have to add. 

             5                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Mr. Dabney, would 

             6    you like to make some comments to the Commission? 

             7                  MR. DABNEY:  I hadn't met Mr. Wise 

             8    before, but we talked on the phone the other day.  

             9    And we talked about Enchanted Rock and Elephant 

            10    Mountain, and I told him just as you said, 

            11    Commissioner Heath, even without changing the 

            12    regulation, if there are other places out there 

            13    that you think makes sense, come forward to us.  

            14    The fact that it is not listed in the regulation 

            15    does not preclude Mr. Wise or anyone else talking 

            16    to the park manager. 

            17                  If there's some reason that it makes 

            18    sense, it's compatible, it isn't interfering with 

            19    other visitors or the safety of the place, we'll 

            20    certainly talk to him about it.  We could then 

            21    come forward if we were in agreement to this 

            22    Commission and ask for a change in that and 

            23    probably for a specific site, not opening the 

            24    whole system to this sort of thing. 

            25                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  It seems to me that 


             1    the logical sequence would be for you and your 

             2    staff to work with these groups.  They seem to be 

             3    self-regulating in establishing some liability 

             4    issues as well as competence issues.  And if we 

             5    could -- if we do find some sites that it's a 

             6    compatible use, then at that time I think changing 

             7    the verbiage of making it a compatible use would 

             8    be appropriate. 

             9                  I'm kind of putting the cart before 

            10    the horse to say it's a permitted use if, in fact, 

            11    we don't have anyplace that it works, that it is 

            12    compatible.  So I think what I'm hearing is -- 

            13    from the Commission, unless there are other 

            14    comments, is an interest in working with these 

            15    groups to see if we can find someplace they can 

            16    practice their sport and be compatible with other 

            17    facility uses and users and go from there and --

            18                  COMMISSIONER HENRY: Mr. Chairman?

            19                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Yes, sir?

            20                  COMMISSIONER HENRY:  I'd like to ask 

            21    Walt a question.  Walt, are there other areas of 

            22    activity where we ask residents or participants or 

            23    citizens to sign hold harmless agreements or 

            24    liability agreements, or lack of, in any other 

            25    areas that you can think of?  And has it -- I'm 


             1    really getting to, has it been tested? 

             2                  MR. DABNEY:  We do, but Randy, do 

             3    one of you know --

             4                  MR. RANDY:  Rock climbing areas --

             5                  MR. DABNEY:  At Enchanted Rock, does 

             6    every climber sign that?  At some places we do.  

             7    They were talking about rock climbing at Mineral 

             8    Wells.  I think, in talking to Rob Trippet, they 

             9    do that at Enchanted Rock.

            10                  COMMISSIONER HENRY:  Do you know if 

            11    the agreement has ever been tested? 

            12                  MR. DABNEY:  If the liability waiver 

            13    has ever been tested?  Bob Sweeney? 

            14                  MR. SWEENEY:  No.

            15                  MR. COOKE:  I don't believe it has. 

            16                  MR. DABNEY:  I don't know of a case.  

            17    In this particular instance, in the conversation 

            18    with Mr. Wise, I, in fact, gave him Roy Heideman, 

            19    the park manager's name at Lost Maples and 

            20    suggested that he go over there and talk.  I don't 

            21    personally -- I can't think of a five-acre cleared 

            22    place at Lost Maples that doesn't have a 

            23    campground in there or something like that, but I 

            24    suggested that he go down there and see if 

            25    something made sense there.  So I think we are not 


             1    against his sport or anybody else's if it makes 

             2    sense someplace. 

             3                  VICE-CHAIR DINKINS:  Mr. Dabney, 

             4    when you look into this, another area that I would 

             5    like to have some information about is the -- any 

             6    call there might be on the staff at a park if 

             7    there were some type of an accident. 

             8                  And what I'm saying is if there's a 

             9    small staff and a fair amount of visitation at any 

            10    given time, if the staff might be called away for 

            11    some type of emergency first-aid.  I couldn't 

            12    understand from Mr. Wise's discussion exactly what 

            13    the record is. 

            14                  I'm glad there haven't been 

            15    fatalities at certain sites in Texas, but I also 

            16    would be interested in what type of drain on the 

            17    staff personnel could be in the offing if this 

            18    were allowed.  Thanks. 

            19                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Any other comments 

            20    on this item?  The Chair would entertain a motion.

            21                  COMMISSIONER WATSON:  So moved. 

            22                  VICE-CHAIR DINKINS:  Second.

            23                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Motion to approve 

            24    the item as presented, and a second.  All in 

            25    favor?  Any opposed?  Motion carries.  Thank you. 


             1                        (Motion passed unanimously.)

             2    "The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission adopts, 

             3    with changes to the proposed text as published in 

             4    the December 22, 2000 issue of the Texas Register 

             5    (25 TexReg 12599-12626):

             6    1. Within 31 TAC Chapter 53 (Finance): Amendments 

             7       to Sections 53.1-53.10 within Subchapter A 

             8       (License Fees and Boat and Motor Fees); 

             9       amendments to Section 53.14 and 53.16 within 

            10       Subchapter B (Stamps); amendments to Section 

            11       53.17 and Section 53.18 within Subchapter C 

            12       (Authorized Vessel Registration Agent); the 

            13       repeal of Section 53.23 and an amendment to 

            14       Section 53.22 within Subchapter D (Surety Bond 

            15       Requirements); the repeal of Sections 

            16       53.31-53.33 and an amendment to Section 53.35 

            17       within Subchapter E (Selling Price of 

            18       Department Information); an amendment to 

            19       Section 53.50 within Subchapter F (Texas 

            20       Freshwater Fisheries Center Admission; Fees and 

            21       Other Entrance Requirements); the repeal of 

            22       Section 53.80 and an amendment to Sections 

            23       53.70, 51.162 within Subchapter I 

            24       (Miscellaneous Wildlife Licenses and Permits); 

            25       and the readoption of all other sections within 


             1       the chapter.


             3    2. Within 31 TAC Chapter 59 (Parks): Amendments to 

             4       Section 59.42 and Section 59.44 within 

             5       Subchapter C (Acquisition and Development of 

             6       Historic Sites, Buildings and Structures); 

             7       amendments to Section 59.63 and Section 59.64 

             8       within Subchapter D (Administration of the 

             9       State Park System); amendments to Sections 

            10       59.101 and 59.103-59.108 within Subchpater E 

            11       (Operation and Leasing of Park Concessions); an 

            12       amendment to Section 59.131 within Subchapter F 

            13       (State Park Operational Rules); and the 

            14       readoption of all other sections within the 

            15       chapter.


            17    3. Within Chapter 69 (Resource Protection): 

            18       Amendments to Section 69.47 and Section 69.51 

            19       within Subchapter C (Wildlife Rehabilitation 

            20       Permits); amendments to Section 69.91 and 

            21       Section 69.93 within Subchapter G (Compliance 

            22       With Coastal Management Plan); amendments to 

            23       Section 69.120 and Section 69.121 within 

            24       Subchapter H (Issuance of Marl, Sand and Gravel 

            25       Permits); amendments to Section 69.201 and 


             1       Section 69.203 within Subchapter I (Shell 

             2       Dredging on the Texas Gulf Coast); amendments 

             3       to Section 69.303 and Section 69.305 within 

             4       Subchapter J (Scientific, Educational, and 

             5       Zoological Permits); and the readoption of all 

             6       other sections within the chapter." 


             8       AGENDA ITEM NO. 6:  BRIEFING - BIG HORN SHEEP 

             9       TRANSPLANT PROJECT.

            10                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Dr. Jerry Cooke, big 

            11    horn sheep transplant briefing, please.

            12                        (WHEREUPON, a briefing

            13                        item was presented to the 

            14                        Commissioners, after which, 

            15                        the following proceedings

            16                        were had:)

            17       AGENDA ITEM NO. 9:  ACTION - ENDANGERED, 


            19       REGULATIONS.

            20                  COMMISSIONER HEATH:  Next item is 

            21    Item 9, endangered, threatened and protected 

            22    native plant regulations, John Herron.

            23                  MR. HERRON:  Thank you, 

            24    Mr. Chairman.  My name is John Herron.  I'm the 

            25    Branch Chief for Wildlife Diversity.  And today 


             1    I'll be briefing you on some changes we are 

             2    proposing to our threatened and endangered plant 

             3    regulations.  This is an action item, and we're 

             4    requesting that the Commission adopt regulations 

             5    today. 

             6                  As I told the Commission 

             7    yesterday -- actually, this was a repeat item.  We 

             8    did bring these changes to the commission last 

             9    August.  However, after the Commission had 

            10    reviewed this, we realized that it had not been 

            11    properly published in the Texas Register as 

            12    required to change our regulations under the 

            13    Administrative Procedures Act.  And so we have 

            14    since republished the announcement of changing 

            15    these regulations, reopened this for public 

            16    comment. 

            17                  We did hold public hearings last 

            18    summer as required.  Those were properly 

            19    announced, and at that time we received no 

            20    comment.  Since reopening this in December, we 

            21    have not received any additional public comment on 

            22    these proposed changes, either.

            23                  The changes we are proposing 

            24    basically mirror changes that were already 

            25    implemented by the Fish and Wildlife Service.  In 


             1    brief, we are proposing to remove the McKittick 

             2    pennyroyal from our list of threatened plant 

             3    species and add the Pecos Sunflower to that same 

             4    list.  We are also proposing to remove the Lloyd's 

             5    hedgehog cactus from our endangered plant list and 

             6    to list the Zapata bladderpod.

             7                  And with that, I would request that 

             8    the commission adopt this amendment to 69.8 

             9    concerning the endangered threatened and protected 

            10    native plants, with changes proposed Texas 

            11    published in the December 1st edition of the Texas 

            12    Register.  And with that, I'd be happy to answer 

            13    any questions. 

            14                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Questions?  There is 

            15    public comment.  Mr. Gilleland, would you like to 

            16    come forward and present your views to the 

            17    Commission? 

            18                  MR. GILLELAND:  My name is Ellis 

            19    Gilleland.  I am representing Texas Animals, an 

            20    organization for animal rights on the Internet. 

            21                  The first page of the handout I just 

            22    gave you is a reissue of the one I gave you on the 

            23    31st of August last year.  It is regulation taken 

            24    from the Parks and Wildlife Code and says that 

            25    publication -- it deals with publication of 


             1    regulations, specifically as applied to the 

             2    endangered species.

             3                  The next page is Rule 65.172, which 

             4    is threatened species, which is what you had 

             5    before you repealed it.  The next item is 65.180, 

             6    endangered species, which you had before you 

             7    repealed it.  I'm showing that you had a clear 

             8    distinction between the two lists according to the 

             9    Parks and Wildlife Code, endangered species your 

            10    final law until repealed. 

            11                  The next item is from your 

            12    Commission Agenda Item Number 7, 31st of August, 

            13    65.175, threatened species.  You substituted in 

            14    the threatened species list for the endangered and 

            15    the threatened.  Among the two which was really 

            16    not kosher, but you did it.  I protested, and you 

            17    did it, anyway.  And finally you published in the 

            18    Texas Register on the 10th of November 2000, the 

            19    deal with repeal of the endangered species list.  

            20    You say one commentor GILLELAND opposed adoption 

            21    of repeal of 69.190.  That's a lie.  I never 

            22    opposed 190.  190 I gave you.  190 deals with 

            23    public lands.  I said nothing about public lands. 

            24                  I opposed 65.180.  So your 

            25    publication in the Texas Register is fraudulent.   


             1    The second matter of fraud in your publication, it 

             2    says the Parks and Wildlife Code does not require 

             3    the Department to maintain a list of endangered 

             4    species by rule and by filing at the Secretary of 

             5    State.  That's a lie.  The Department's list of 

             6    endangered species is on file with the Secretary 

             7    of State.  That's a lie. 

             8                  And the list of species receive full 

             9    protection of the Parks and Wildlife Code.  That's 

            10    a lie.  You cannot protect endangered species.  

            11    Jim Robertson cannot protect endangered species, 

            12    or arrest somebody killing a warbler because you 

            13    have repealed the endangered species list.  No 

            14    changes were made as a result of the comment.  

            15    Well, how wonderful, you have the power to change 

            16    it. 

            17                  So I would ask you to go back and 

            18    not only make a regulation for your plants, but 

            19    please put the animals in there that are 

            20    endangered.  It's the animals I'm concerned with.  

            21    I think the plants are a concern, too.  But 

            22    they're not a living, breathing, warm-blooded, 

            23    sentiment being.  So I would ask you to add the 

            24    animals. 

            25                  MR. SANSOM:  Thank you, 


             1    Mr. Gilleland.  Your time is up. 

             2                  MR. GILLELAND:  Animals --

             3                  MR. SANSOM:  Thank you very much. 

             4                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Mr. Herron, would 

             5    you like to respond, please? 

             6                  MR. HERRON:  Well, Mr. Gilleland's 

             7    comments were addressing actions taken last August 

             8    concerning endangered, threatened and endangered 

             9    animals, not what we have before the Commission 

            10    today, which is limited to plants.  But in 

            11    response, I would point out that, as he mentioned, 

            12    our list of endangered animals is done by 

            13    submitting a list to the Secretary of State's 

            14    Office. 

            15                  We did take that to the Commission 

            16    in August, and we have subsequently filed that 

            17    list with the Secretary of State's Office.  And I 

            18    doubled checked that with our staff, Robert 

            19    Macdonald.  And, you know, it's been filed at the 

            20    Statutory Documents Division at the Secretary of 

            21    State's Office.  So we do have a list of 

            22    endangered animals.  Law enforcement is aware of 

            23    that. 

            24                  In fact, once it was filed, we had 

            25    that added to the regulation books that our game 


             1    wardens have, so I think we have addressed 

             2    Mr. Gilleland's concern concerning endangered 

             3    animals.  There is still a list of endangered 

             4    animals.

             5                  COMMISSIONER ANGELO:  Is this a 

             6    typographical error in reference to 190 as opposed 

             7    to 180?

             8                  MR. HERRON:  I wasn't involved in 

             9    the preparation of that.  It may well be.

            10                  COMMISSIONER ANGELO:  It looks like 

            11    it probably is.

            12                  MR. HERRON:  In regards to the 

            13    record of the last meeting? 

            14                  COMMISSIONER ANGELO:  Yeah, on 

            15    Page 289 of the Texas Register. 

            16                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Other questions, 


            18                  COMMISSIONER ANGELO:  Move approval 

            19    of the recommendation. 

            20                  COMMISSIONER WATSON:  Second.

            21                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Chair has a motion 

            22    and a second.  All in favor?  Any opposed?  The 

            23    motion is passed.  Thank you. 

            24                        (Motion passed unanimously.) 

            25       "The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission adopts 


             1       an amendment to Section 69.8, concerning 

             2       Endangered, Threatened, and protected Native 

             3       Plants, with changes to the proposed text as 

             4       published in the December 1, 2000 issue of the 

             5       Texas Register (25 TexReg 11900)."


             7       AGENDA ITEM NO. 11:  BRIEFING - SHRIMP RESOURCE 

             8       STUDY.

             9                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Hal Osburn, if you 

            10    would please come forward now and do briefing Item 

            11    Number 11, shrimp resource study, that is an 

            12    outgrowth of our actions earlier last year.  

            13                        (WHEREUPON, a briefing

            14                        item was presented to the 

            15                        Commissioners, after which, 

            16                        the following proceedings

            17                        were had:)

            18       AGENDA ITEM NO. 15 ACTION:  LAND ACQUISITION - 

            19       BREWSTER COUNTY (BIG BEND RANCH SP).

            20                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Item 14 has been 

            21    pulled from the agenda, which brings us to 15, 

            22    land acquisition of Brewster County.

            23                  MS. LESLIE:  I'm Karen Leslie with 

            24    the Land Conservation Group.  Big Bend Ranch, 

            25    Chairman and Commissioners, this item reflects a 


             1    summary of the Conservation Committee Executive 

             2    Session item that was presented to you yesterday.  

             3    The property is a bargain sale in holding and 

             4    helps to protect the natural and cultural 

             5    resources of the park.  The property is located on 

             6    the east side of the park north of Lajitas. 

             7                  Staff recommends the Commission 

             8    consider the motion to acquire the 640 acres as an 

             9    addition to Big Bend Ranch State park.

            10                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Questions or 

            11    comments?  There's no public comment on this. 

            12                  COMMISSIONER HENRY:  Move.

            13                  COMMISSIONER HEATH:  Second.

            14                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Motion by 

            15    Commissioner Henry, second by Commissioner Heath.  

            16    All in favor?  Any opposed?  Thank you, 

            17    Ms. Leslie.  The motion carries. 

            18                        (Motion passed unanimously.)

            19       "The Executive Director is authorized to take 

            20       all steps necessary to purchase Section 11, 

            21       Block G5, G.C. & S.R. Ry. Co. Survey, Brewster 

            22       County, to be part of Big Bend Ranch State 

            23       Park."

            24    AGENDA ITEM NO. 16:  ACTION - LAND ACQUISITION - 



             1                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Mr. Jack Bauer, 

             2    Nacogdoches County, please. 

             3                  MR. BAUER:  Chairman and 

             4    Commissioners, I am Jack Bauer, Director of the 

             5    Land Conservation Program.  This item reflects a 

             6    summary of the conservation Committee Executive 

             7    Session item presented yesterday.  The item 

             8    relates to land transactions at Alazan Bayou 

             9    Wildlife Management Area.  Staff is recommending 

            10    the acquisition of a 101-acre tract at Alazan to 

            11    offset habitat loss that's anticipated with road 

            12    construction at the facility. 

            13                  The tract contains very high quality 

            14    habitat.  I ask for your consideration for the 

            15    motion before you to acquire this property as a 

            16    habitat addition to Alazan.  I would be happy to 

            17    answer any questions. 

            18                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Questions? 

            19                  COMMISSIONER ANGELO:  Move approval 

            20    of the recommendation.

            21                  COMMISSIONER HENRY:   Second.

            22                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Motion and a second.  

            23    All in favor?  Any opposed?  Motion carries.  

            24    Thank you.

            25                        (Motion passed unanimously.)


             1       "The Executive Director is authorized to take 

             2       all steps necessary to acquire approximately 

             3       101.6 acres as a habitat addition to Alazan 

             4       Bayou WMA."

             5    AGENDA ITEM NO. 17:  ACTION - LAND ACQUISITION - 


             7                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Anderson County, 

             8    Mr. Bauer, please. 

             9                  MR. BAUER:  Chairman and 

            10    Commissioners, this item also reflects a summary 

            11    of the committee session yesterday.  It relates to 

            12    Big Lake Bottom, which is a rare remnant of Upper 

            13    Trinity River Bottom Habitat.  The facility has 

            14    been under development since 1992.  Staff is 

            15    recommending the acquisition of a 100-acre tract 

            16    that will provide county road access and tie 

            17    together previously noncontiguous ownership at the 

            18    facility. 

            19                  Staff recommends the Commission 

            20    consider the motion before you to acquire 

            21    approximately 100 acres as a habitat addition at 

            22    Big Lake Bottom.  And I would be happy to answer 

            23    questions. 

            24                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  No public comment.  

            25    Any questions from the Commission?  Entertain a 


             1    motion? 

             2                  COMMISSIONER HEATH:  So moved.

             3                  COMMISSIONER RYAN:   Second. 

             4                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Motion from 

             5    Mr. Heath, second by Commissioner Ryan.  All in 

             6    favor?  Any opposed?  

             7                        (Motion passed unanimously.)

             8       "The Executive Director is authorized to take 

             9       all steps necessary to acquire approximately 

            10       100 acres in Anderson County as an addition to 

            11       the Big Lake Bottom Wildlife Management Areas."

            12    AGENDA ITEM NO. 18:  ACTION - BREWSTER COUNTY - 

            13    BLACK GAP WMA.

            14                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  And lastly, 

            15    Mr. Bauer, Brewster County. 

            16                  MR. BAUER:  This item represents 

            17    land acquisition recommendations at the Black Gap 

            18    in Brewster County.  As you are aware, the 

            19    Department has been purchasing privately held in 

            20    holdings and Desert Mountain Habitat within the 

            21    boundary of Black Gap to improve facility 

            22    management and in support of the Desert Big Horn 

            23    Sheep Restoration Program. 

            24                  Staff recommends the Commission 

            25    consider the motion before you to acquire a 


             1    40-acre inholding as a habitat addition at Black 

             2    Gap.  And I would be happy to answer questions. 

             3                  COMMISSIONER HENRY:  So moved.

             4                  COMMISSIONER RYAN:  Seconded.

             5                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  So moved and 

             6    seconded by Commissioner Ryan.  All in favor?  Any 

             7    opposed?  Motion carries.  Thank you. 

             8                        (Motion passed unanimously.)

             9       "The Executive Director is authorized to take 

            10       all necessary steps to consummate the 

            11       acquisition of approximately 40 acres in 

            12       Brewster County as an addition to Black Gap 

            13       Wildlife Management Area."

            14                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Mr. Sansom, do you 

            15    know of any other business to come before this 

            16    Commission today? 

            17                  MR. SANSOM:  No, Mr. Chairman.

            18                  CHAIRMAN BASS:  Being no other 

            19    business, there's no further public comment.  And 

            20    we stand adjourned.  Thank you very much.  

            21                         *-*-*-*-*

            22                   (MEETING ADJOURNED.)

            23                         *-*-*-*-*




             1                 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

             2    STATE OF TEXAS   )

             3    COUNTY OF TRAVIS )

             4             I, MELODY RENEE DeYOUNG, a Certified 

             5    Court Reporter in and for the State of Texas, do 

             6    hereby certify that the above and foregoing 73 

             7    pages constitute a full, true and correct 

             8    transcript of the minutes of the Texas Parks and 

             9    Wildlife Commission on JANUARY 25, 2001, in the 

            10    Commission hearing room of the Texas Parks and 

            11    Wildlife Headquarters Complex, Austin, Travis 

            12    County, Texas.

            13             I FURTHER CERTIFY that a stenographic 

            14    record was made by me at the time of the public 

            15    meeting and said stenographic notes were 

            16    thereafter reduced to computerized transcription 

            17    under my supervision and control.

            18             WITNESS MY HAND this the 24th day of 

            19    February, 2001. 

            21             MELODY RENEE DeYOUNG, RPR, CSR NO. 3226
                           Expiration Date:  12-31-02
            22             3101 Bee Caves Road
                           Centre II, Suite 220
            23             Austin, Texas  78746
                           (512) 328-5557
            25    EBS NO.        


             2                      Lee M. Bass, Chairman
                                    Carol E. Dinkins, Vice Chair
             7                      Dick W. Heath
                                    Nolan Ryan
            12                      Ernest Angelo, Jr.
                                    John Avila, Jr.
            17                      Alvin L. Henry
                                    Katharine Armstrong Idsal
            22                      Mark E. Watson, Jr.