Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission
Conservation Committee

April 3, 2002

Commission Hearing Room
Texas Parks & Wildlife Department Headquarters Complex
4200 Smith School Road
Austin, TX 78744

           5            BE IT REMEMBERED, that heretofore on the 3rd day 

           6   of April, 2002, there came to be heard matters under the 

           7   regulatory authority of the Parks and Wildlife Commission of 

           8   Texas, in the Commission Hearing Room of the Texas Parks and 

           9   Wildlife Headquarters Complex, Austin, Texas, beginning at 

          10   3:00 p.m., to wit: 


          12   APPEARANCES: 




          16   CHAIR:   Katharine Armstrong Idsal, San Antonio, Texas 
                        Donato D. Ramos, Laredo, Texas 
          17            Philip Montgomery, III, Dallas, Texas 
                        Ernest Angelo, Jr., Midland, Texas 
          18            John Avila, Jr., Fort Worth, Texas 
                        Alvin L. Henry, Houston, Texas (Absent) 
          19            Mark E. Watson, Jr., San Antonio, Texas 
                        Joseph Fitzsimons, San Antonio, Texas 
          20            Kelly W. Rising, M.D., Beaumont, Texas 



               Robert L. Cook, Executive Director, and other personnel of 
          24   the Parks and Wildlife Department 


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           1                 CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  That brings us to the 

           2  Conservation Committee.  The first order of business is the 

           3  approval of the committee minutes from the previous meeting.  

           4  Is there a motion for approval? 

           5                 COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  So moved.  

           6                 CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  A second?  

           7                 COMMISSIONER RISING:  Second. 

           8                 CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  All in favor say aye.   

           9                 ("Aye.") 

          10                 CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Any opposed?  Hearing none, 

          11  motion carries.  Next order of business is the Chairman's 

          12  Charges.  Mr. Cook, will you please make your presentation. 

          13                 MR. COOK:  Yes, ma'am, I have a couple or three 

          14  of the charges I would like to cover at this time.  One, to 

          15  develop a statewide Land and Water Resources Conservation and 

          16  Recreation Plan.  Staff began work on this project immediately 

          17  after the Legislative session ended last spring.  Jeff 

          18  Francell, Emily Armintano and Jack Bauer have been doing a 

          19  great job of coordinating this effort.  The Chairman appointed 

          20  an ad hoc committee to oversee the development of the plan.  

          21  To date the committee has met three times and a draft report 

          22  is due May 1.  Two constituent feedback meetings are scheduled 

          23  for April 10th at McKinney Roughs and April 17th in the State 

          24  Capitol auditorium and I would like for you to know that you 

          25  are invited to attend either or both of those sessions and 

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           1  hear what our constituents have to think about our process and 

           2  where we are in the plan.  Another charge was to participate 

           3  in the Texas Water Advisory Council.  That came out of Senate 

           4  Bill 2.   

           5                 Chairman Idsal has appointed Commissioner 

           6  Joseph Fitzsimons as the TPWD representative on the Texas Water 

           7  Advisory Council.  The initial organizing meeting was held 

           8  January 23, 2002, and the second meeting is tentatively 

           9  scheduled in May.  Established by Senate Bill 2, the duties of 

          10  the council are to provide a forum on significant water policy 

          11  issues, and in an advisory role, strive to provide focus and 

          12  recommendations on state water policy initiatives.  The 

          13  council will also review river authority's performance 

          14  according to standards established by the Legislature and 

          15  report to state leadership by December 2002.   

          16                 Third, to negotiate with the Texas Department 

          17  of Transportation for the use of obsolete bridges, tunnels, 

          18  and causeways for the artificial reef program.  A meeting with 

          19  TxDOT was held in February during which TxDOT provided staff 

          20  with a partial list of bridges and overpasses scheduled for 

          21  demolition.  Also discussed were issues regarding the 

          22  stability of materials for artificial reefs which were 

          23  contaminated with oil, availability of funds to transport 

          24  materials offshore and costs associated with the transport of 

          25  those materials and what it would take to reef the existing 

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           1  Galveston causeway.  Personnel from both agencies are working 

           2  together to find a way to enhance the artificial reefs off the 

           3  Texas coast.  Thank you. 

           4                 CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Thank you, Mr. Cook.   

           5                 Next order of business is Item No. 2, 

           6  Nomination of Oil and Gas - Tyler State Park.  Mr. Ray, will 

           7  you make your presentation, please. 

           8                 MR. RAY:  Thank you.  Madam Chairman and 

           9  Commissioners, I'm Ronnie Ray with the Land Conservation and 

          10  Acquisition Group.  This item is to consider the nomination of 

          11  an oil and gas lease at the Tyler State Park in Smith County.  

          12  This nomination has been requested by a producer.  Tyler State 

          13  Park is comprised of 985 acres.  The proposed nominated tracts 

          14  are on the eastern side of the park depicted in this map in 

          15  the blue outline.  They total approximately 51 mineral acres.  

          16  The restriction on this lease will be no entry on TPWD lands.  

          17  The terms of the lease are standard terms of minimum bonus bid 

          18  of $150 an acre, 25 percent royalty and 10 percent -- $10 per 

          19  acre delayed rental.  This concludes my presentation.  Any 

          20  questions? 

          21                 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  Is this in a pooled 

          22  unit, you're saying they're not coming on the property? 

          23                 MR. RAY:  Right.  Yes, sir, it will be 

          24  restricted to off-site drilling.  It will be pooled. 

          25                 COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  When you say no entry, are 

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           1  you saying that they cannot have a drilling site on this 

           2  particular tract? 

           3                 MR. RAY:  Yes, sir. 

           4                 COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  In other words, we would 

           5  have -- it would have to be an off-site drilling underneath 

           6  our property? 

           7                 MR. RAY:  Right.  They'll be on our neighboring 

           8  property.   

           9                 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  As I understand it, 

          10  the 51 acres is included in an existing unit and we're pooled 

          11  in that unit. 

          12                 MR. RAY:  Yes, sir, it will be. 

          13                 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  For whatever well 

          14  they permitted, I guess.  Do you know how big? 

          15                 MR. RAY:  No, sir.  I'm pretty sure it hasn't 

          16  been done yet. 

          17                 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  Okay.   

          18                 MR. RAY:  It's just at the lease stage. 

          19                 COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  Have you discussed out of 

          20  the unit how many acres will be comprised out of our acres, in 

          21  other words, if you created a unit that at least half of the 

          22  unit would be our acreage or any limitation of that type? 

          23                 MR. RAY:  To my knowledge it hasn't been 

          24  discussed. 

          25                 COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  Or the minimum royalty per 

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           1  acre like the delayed $10 or $20. 

           2                 MR. RAY:  It will be 25 percent. 

           3                 COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  No, that the minimum 

           4  royalty -- in other words that in no event would be paid any 

           5  less than so much per acre. 

           6                 MR. RAY:  It's $150 on the lease and then a $10 

           7  delayed rental.  And then whatever amount they pool. 

           8                 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  It's in bail bonds 

           9  terms.  Those numbers aren't bad you know. 

          10                 COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  Are you still at a 

          11  negotiating point where you can negotiate how many acres would 

          12  be comprised -- in the unit would comprise our acreage to 

          13  where we could maximize our participation in that unit? 

          14                 MR. RAY:  Yes, sir, I believe we could. 

          15                 COMMISSIONER ANGELO:  Does the lease form not 

          16  have that kind of language in it?  It probably does.  I would 

          17  be surprised if it doesn't have some --  

          18                 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  No, the producer's 

          19  lease form -- (inaudible). 

          20                 COMMISSIONER ANGELO:  Well, I don't know what 

          21  we're using.  

          22                 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  It wouldn't be in our 

          23  favor, I guarantee you that.   

          24                 COMMISSIONER ANGELO:  No -- do we have our own 

          25  lease form?  Did the state provide a lease form?   

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           1                 CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Mr. Bauer? 

           2                 COMMISSIONER ANGELO:  They don't come with 

           3  their own lease form?   

           4                 MR. RAY:  General Land Office form. 

           5                 COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  It is the GLO form you 

           6  use? 

           7                 MR. RAY:  Yes, sir. 

           8                 COMMISSIONER ANGELO:  It's got every 

           9  restriction you can think of from the landowner standpoint. 

          10                 CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Did I recognize Jack Bauer? 

          11                 MR. BAUER:  Thank you.  I'm Jack Bauer with the 

          12  Land Conservation Program.  What the purpose of the Commission 

          13  would have in this is, the lease arrangements are done through 

          14  the Board for Lease for Parks and Wildlife Lands and -- at the 

          15  General Land Office.  They will prepare the lease.  They honor 

          16  our -- the Commission's recommendations for the terms of 

          17  those -- of those leases.  So if you have desires, make them 

          18  known and we will carry them forward to the Board for Lease. 

          19                 COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  My only suggestion would 

          20  be that, to the extent that there is pooling, that we maximize 

          21  our acreage position in the pool. 

          22                 MR. RAY:  I understand.  That's what I meant 

          23  when I said I believe it's still open for negotiations 

          24  whatever you-all send to them, I believe we can discuss. 

          25                 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  Madame Chair.   

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           1                 CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Commissioner Fitzsimons. 

           2                 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  May I make a 

           3  recommendation -- if we could -- you have a small ad hoc 

           4  unofficial committee of the two oil and gas lawyers to look at 

           5  our riders that we do -- traditionally have riders where it 

           6  involves our surface in surface-use provisions, in this case 

           7  it doesn't -- there won't be access to the surface, but in 

           8  cases where is it does, do we have our own special rider for 

           9  parkland or is it just straight GLO? 

          10                 MR. BAUER:  It's straight GLO, yes, sir. 

          11                 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  If maybe we could 

          12  look at that issue because if the GLO form is a good form -- 

          13  I've been on both sides of it, but it does not necessarily -- 

          14  it's not necessarily designed certainly for our surface 

          15  issues. 

          16                 COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  That's right -- plus from 

          17  the pooling perspective also. 

          18                 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  Yeah.  

          19                 CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  I think I see where you-all 

          20  are going with this and what I recommend if it's okay with 

          21  you-all, if the two of you-all could get-together and with 

          22  Jack and figure out something that might make some sense here 

          23  and then report back to us at the next Commission meeting. 

          24                 MR. BAUER:  That's great.  I really appreciate 

          25  the involvement that you're taking in this. 

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           1                 COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  Unless you have some 

           2  urgency because there's a deadline or something. 

           3                 MR. BAUER:  No, sir.  This is for a July sale.   

           4                 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  For a July sale.  

           5  Yeah. 

           6                 MR. COOK:  I would -- Jack, you and Ronnie what 

           7  do you think about moving forward with this with the direction 

           8  given here to do that or do we -- do -- would you recommend we 

           9  hold up on this one? 

          10                 MR. BAUER:  If you had some specific language 

          11  that you are used to in the oil and gas industry that we could 

          12  forward as part of the recommendation, I think that would be 

          13  the best way to do it.   

          14                 COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  I think we could meet with 

          15  him afterwards and just share a few thoughts with him. 

          16                 CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Okay.  Are there any further 

          17  questions on this item?  If not, I propose that we move this 

          18  to the Thursday Commission meeting for public comment and 

          19  action; is that correct?  Thank you.  Thank you, Jack.   

          20                 MR. BAUER:  Thank you. 

          21                 CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Item No. 3, Petroleum Pipeline 

          22  Easement, Cameron County.  Mr. Gissell, will you please make 

          23  your presentation. 

          24                 MR. GISSELL:  Madame Chairman and members of 

          25  Commission, my name is Dennis Gissell.  I'm with the Wildlife 

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           1  Division and today I'm here to request your approval to 

           2  proceed forward with the development of an easement for two 

           3  petroleum pipelines that were installed on Resaca de la Palma 

           4  State Park, which is a portion of the World Birding Center. 

           5  Resaca de la Palma State Park is about three miles west of 

           6  Brownsville in Cameron County.  In late 1999 two petroleum 

           7  pipelines were installed by a contractor of Penn Octane 

           8  Corporation on Resaca de la Palma without Park and Wildlife 

           9  permission and the pipelines were constructed under a 

          10  presidential permit to provide liquid petroleum gas, gasoline 

          11  and diesel to Mexico.  This slide shows the boundary of the 

          12  1,200-acre Resaca de la Palma and the inset shows the relative 

          13  location of the pipelines.  This is an expansion of that 

          14  inset, it shows where the two pipelines were installed just 

          15  inside the boundary of the park on the southeast corner.  This 

          16  is a slide that shows the right-of-way where the two pipelines 

          17  were installed alongside a power line easement, approximately 

          18  1,493 feet long and the easement would be about 30 feet wide.  

          19  It covers just over an acre of land.   

          20                 Once the pipelines were discovered, staff 

          21  negotiated with Penn Octane to survey a boundary of the 

          22  property as well as the pipeline locations, to have an 

          23  archaeological survey done, and to assess damage fees and 

          24  easement fees.  As I mentioned, one pipeline is currently 

          25  transporting liquid petroleum gas and the other one is sitting 

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           1  idle but could be used for either gasoline or diesel in the 

           2  near future.  Applicant and staff request permission to 

           3  proceed with an easement to the Board for Lease for action for 

           4  a ten-year easement, a total of $118,096 in damages and fees 

           5  which includes $100,000 in damages and $18,096 in easement 

           6  fees.  That concludes my presentation and I would be pleased 

           7  to answer your questions. 

           8                 COMMISSIONER AVILA:  Is the easement fees 

           9  continuing or is that a onetime fee? 

          10                 MR. GISSELL:  That is a onetime ten-year 

          11  easement fee.  And we would renegotiate at the end of that 

          12  ten-year term. 

          13                 COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  Does the easement that you 

          14  contemplate be restrictive to the existing pipelines and 

          15  nothing more? 

          16                 MR. GISSELL:  That's correct. 

          17                 COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  Or do they have the right 

          18  to lay additional lines? 

          19                 MR. GISSELL:  It would be restricted to those 

          20  two pipelines. 

          21                 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  Upon the termination 

          22  of it, it requires them to remove it and remediate. 

          23                 MR. GISSELL:  We certainly could do that. 

          24                 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  Along the lines of 

          25  our earlier discussions, there are things to put in there. 

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           1                 COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  In with the legal document 

           2  supporting that -- is that something that's generated by the 

           3  General Land Office or we will do that? 

           4                 MR. GISSELL:  The General Land Office generates 

           5  that, sir. 

           6                 COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  The width of the easement 

           7  is 30 feet? 

           8                 MR. GISSELL:  Thirty feet. 

           9                 COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  To the center line? 

          10                 MR. GISSELL:  Fifteen feet from each side of 

          11  the center line. 

          12                 COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  But the lines have been in 

          13  place already and they've been using it? 

          14                 MR. GISSELL:  That's correct. 

          15                 CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Is there any further 

          16  discussion?  The Committee Chair will place the item on the 

          17  Thursday Commission meeting agenda for public comment and 

          18  action.   

          19                 Next committee item is No. 4, Easement 

          20  Assignments in Travis County.  Jack Bauer will you make the 

          21  presentation, please. 

          22                 MR. BAUER:  My name is Jack Bauer.  I'm Land 

          23  Conservation Program Director.  This is a land cleanup item 

          24  relating to conversion of constructed -- construction permits 

          25  that came up for fiber optics on Smith School Road and we 

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           1  would like to convert them to easements.  This view is from 

           2  overhead looking south toward the headquarters from Burleson 

           3  Road and through -- from '99 to last year with all the -- all 

           4  the fiber optic construction that was going on in the county 

           5  and the city, we had -- we had several requests to lay a 

           6  conduit up Smith School Road.  There is a fiber optics 

           7  provider at the end of Smith School Road.  It's that building 

           8  there identified as Level 3.  And several providers wanted to 

           9  hook up to the infrastructure circuit that was going in around 

          10  Austin to these service providers at Level 3 Communications.  

          11  Texas Parks and Wildlife owns Smith School Road and we felt it 

          12  appropriate to benefit from rents that we could receive from 

          13  that.  We did due diligence for archaeology and also from an 

          14  operational standpoint of running our headquarters here and it 

          15  was not any significant impacts.  But we did provide an 

          16  easement to Level 3 in '99 and what we have now is -- we then 

          17  had, under really from that industry what would be considered 

          18  as urgent requests, to get two more sets of conduit in along 

          19  Smith School Road.  One was from MCI WorldCom.  We provided a 

          20  construction permit for them to construct within the same 

          21  easement area as the Level 3 right-of-way.  I'll go back and 

          22  that would be on the east side of Smith School.  And then 

          23  following that we had a request to put in, and we provided 

          24  through a permit -- construction permit and occupancy permit 

          25  to lay conduit on the west side of Smith School.  And staff 

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           1  and the applicants would like to now convert these to 

           2  easements.   

           3                 So the actions that we would ask you to 

           4  consider would be -- there would be two of them.  First would 

           5  be to assign the existing miscellaneous easement from the 

           6  Board for Lease and the number is identified there, to be 

           7  assigned to MCI WorldCom.  We have collected a fee for -- to 

           8  construct -- to lay the conduit of $25,000 and we would 

           9  suggest that the terms and conditions that came with the 

          10  permit to construct be converted to that easement.  Actually 

          11  on that one, the terms and conditions that exist with Level 3 

          12  would be converted and the same terms and conditions would 

          13  apply to MCI WorldCom.   

          14                 For -- the other fiber optics provider which is 

          15  XO Texas that's on the west side of Smith School Road we 

          16  would -- we have collected $75,000 in fees to construct 

          17  that -- to lay that conduit.  And we would propose, using the 

          18  terms and conditions that are -- that exist in that permit and 

          19  convert them to an easement for a ten-year term at -- with the 

          20  revenue that's been collected of $75,000.  Are there 

          21  questions? 

          22                 CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Commissioner Avila.   

          23                 COMMISSIONER AVILA:  WorldCom is putting in two 

          24  additional -- they have three now; is that correct, or 

          25  something like that? 

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           1                 MR. BAUER:  MCI WorldCom has one bundle of 

           2  conduit that is in an easement that has been provided by the 

           3  Board for Lease to Level 3 communications.   

           4                 COMMISSIONER AVILA:  Did we charge them for 

           5  that? 

           6                 MR. BAUER:  Yes, we did.   

           7                 COMMISSIONER AVILA:  So, is it not 75 -- 75 

           8  more or less? 

           9                 MR. BAUER:  The one to Level 3 was for $25,000.  

          10  We provided a permit to construct in that same easement to MCI 

          11  WorldCom at a rate of $25,000.  We provided a permit to 

          12  construct on the third one, the one on the west side of the 

          13  road at $75,000.  There was some logic to that in the sense 

          14  that they were actually providing capacity for three other 

          15  customers, therefore three times $25,000. 

          16                 COMMISSIONER AVILA:  Okay.  Okay. 

          17                 MR. BAUER:  As a side, we have had extensive 

          18  discussions with the Land Office about appropriate rates for 

          19  fiber optic easements and it's clear that the structure used 

          20  in the oil and gas industry which for us is atypical and for 

          21  the GLO is $10 a rod, does not fit the revenue-generating 

          22  capability of fiber optics and these fiber optics bundles are 

          23  laid with huge potential capacity.  So -- and when capacity is 

          24  added you are not aware of it and you don't have the 

          25  opportunity to take advantage of them using your land, so 

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           1  those were the basis of the fees. 

           2                 COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  And the fees that they're 

           3  paying, is that for a specific fiber optic cable that's been 

           4  laid or will be laid or is it broad enough where they could 

           5  lay more than one in the future? 

           6                 MR. BAUER:  The permit, the construction permit 

           7  identifies the laying of a group of conduit -- of conduit, of 

           8  pipe.  And the permit is for the laying of that pipe with the 

           9  acknowledgment that they will be blown full or with fiber 

          10  optic cable at some point in time.  There is more conduit 

          11  there than there is fiber cable in them right now.  They are 

          12  not filled. 

          13                 COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  So then, the actual 

          14  easement is as to a particular conduit that they in the future 

          15  can stuff, as you might say, with fiber optic cable? 

          16                 MR. BAUER:  That's correct. 

          17                 COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  But there's a limitation 

          18  as to the size of that conduit? 

          19                 MR. BAUER:  There is a capacity limitation 

          20  because there is only so much fiber cable that you can cram 

          21  through the conduit, but there is extensive capacity there. 

          22                 COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  Do we also reserve the 

          23  right in the future to grant future easements for other 

          24  conduits for other people that may be interested, which is not 

          25  exclusive as to them as to a particular area, but if we wanted 

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           1  to go, let's say, a foot higher or two feet higher and grant 

           2  another easement in the future? 

           3                 MR. BAUER:  We can. 

           4                 COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  We reserve that right. 

           5                 MR. BAUER:  That's correct.  And in fact that 

           6  was the situation between Level 3, which is the folks that 

           7  constructed first and they do have an easement from the Board 

           8  for Lease.  When MCI WorldCom came in, they are using the same 

           9  space but raised up.  They're 5-foot wide easements and we 

          10  collected the same fee for that new customer. 

          11                 COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  Okay. 

          12                 MR. COOK:  Jack Bauer is much too modest.  He 

          13  gets all he can get from them and asks for more. 

          14                 MR. BAUER:  I -- 

          15                 CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  How do you know all this? 

          16                 MR. BAUER:  I think that was Mr. Cook's number. 

          17                 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  "More" is his number. 

          18                 CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Commissioner Fitzsimons.   

          19                 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  Just as an aside, 

          20  you're absolutely right, $10 a rod is no longer anywhere close 

          21  to the market and even in the oil and gas industry.  That's 

          22  more like 50,000 and I'm sure Donato gets more.   

          23                 COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  A little bit.   

          24                 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  A little bit.  And 

          25  upwards to 350 a rod, $350 a rod in some cases.  So that has 

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           1  become a very fluid area, in other words, whoever really has 

           2  what the party requesting the easement needs, can really 

           3  negotiate a price.  The standards are out the window.  So just 

           4  for future reference. 

           5                 MR. BAUER:  I think we're quite fortunate to 

           6  have you folks willing to help us with these and we will take 

           7  all your -- you're in the industry, you work in it every day 

           8  and that's a real benefit for us.   

           9                 I would offer too that I think if these people 

          10  came to us today we probably wouldn't be getting $25,000.   

          11                 CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Is there any other discussion 

          12  from the Commission?  The committee chair will place the item 

          13  on the Thursday Commission meeting agenda for public comment 

          14  and action.   

          15                 Next committee Item No. 5 has been pulled from 

          16  the agenda.  Committee Items 6 through 11 are real estate 

          17  items that were discussed in Executive Session.  Is there any 

          18  other business to be brought before this committee, Mr. Cook? 

          19                 MR. COOK:  No, ma'am. 

          20                 CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Hearing none, this committee 

          21  has completed its business and we will move on to the next 

          22  committee.   




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                                   Austin, Texas  78746
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           1   THE STATE OF TEXAS )  

           2   COUNTY OF TRAVIS  ) 

           3        I, KIM SEIBERT, a Certified Court Reporter in and for 

           4   the State of Texas, do hereby certify that the above and 

           5   foregoing pages constitute a full, true, and correct 

           6   transcript of the minutes of the Texas Parks and Wildlife 

           7   Commission on April 3, 2002, in the Commission hearing room 

           8   of the Texas Parks and Wildlife Headquarters Complex, Austin, 

           9   Travis County, Texas.   

          10        I FURTHER CERTIFY that a stenographic record was made by 

          11   me at the time of the public meeting and said stenographic 

          12   notes were thereafter reduced to computerized transcription  

          13   under my supervision and control.   

          14        WITNESS MY HAND this ____ day of ____________________, 

          15   2002. 



          18                      ___________________________ 
                                  KIM SEIBERT, Texas CSR 4589 
          19                      Expiration Date:  12/2002 
                                  3101 Bee Caves Road 
          20                      Suite 220, Centre II 
                                  Austin, Texas  78701 
          21                      (512) 328-5557 





                                ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES
                        3101  Bee Caves Road, Suite 220, Centre II
                                   Austin, Texas  78746
                           (512) 328-5557  FAX:  (512) 328-8139
.                                                                       20




           4   ___________________________ 

           6   ___________________________ 
               PHILIP MONTGOMERY, III 

           8   ___________________________ 
               JOSEPH FITZSIMONS 

          10   ___________________________ 
               KELLY W. RISING, M.D.  

          12   ___________________________ 
               ERNEST ANGELO, JR. 

          14   ___________________________ 
               JOHN AVILA, JR. 

          16   ___________________________ 
               ALVIN L. HENRY 

          18   ___________________________ 
               DONATO D. RAMOS  

          20   ___________________________ 
               MARK E. WATSON, JR. 





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                                   Austin, Texas  78746
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