Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission
Public Hearing
April 4, 2002
Commission Hearing RoomTexas Parks & Wildlife Department Headquarters Complex
4200 Smith School Road
Austin, TX 78744
1
6 BE IT REMEMBERED that heretofore on the
7 4th day of April, 2002, there came on to be heard
8 matters under the regulatory authority of the
9 Parks and Wildlife Commission of Texas, in the
10 commission hearing room of the Texas Parks and
11 Wildlife Headquarters complex, Austin, Travis
12 County, Texas, beginning at 9:00 a.m., to wit:
13
14
APPEARANCES:
15 THE PARKS AND WILDLIFE COMMISSION:
16 Katharine Armstrong Idsal, San Antonio, Texas,
Chairman
17 Ernest Angelo, Jr., Vice Chairman, Midland,
Texas
18 John Avila, Jr., Fort Worth, Texas
Joseph B.C. Fitzsimons, San Antonio, Texas
19 Alvin L. Henry, Houston, Texas (Absent)
Philip Montgomery, III, Dallas, Texas
20 Donato D. Ramos, Laredo, Texas
Kelly W. Rising, M.D., Beaumont, Texas
21 Mark E. Watson, Jr., San Antonio, Texas
22 THE PARKS AND WILDLIFE DEPARTMENT:
Robert L. Cook, Executive Director, and other
23 personnel of the Parks and Wildlife Department.
24
25
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2
1 OTHERS PRESENT:
2 Mr. Greg Duggan, City of Dalhart
3 Mr. Gene Riser, Texas Deer Association
4 Mr. Ellis Gilleland, "Texas Animals"
5 Mr. Karl Kinsel, Texas Deer Association
6 Mr. Kirby Brown, Texas Wildlife Association
7 Mr. Jerry Johnston, Texas Deer Association
8 Mr. Wesley Blevins, Calhoun County Shrimpers
9 Mr. James Davenport, Calhoun County Shrimpers
10 Mr. Skip James, (Petitioners Representative)
11 Mr. Albert Fumuso, (Sportsman)
12 Mr. Walt Glasscock, Texas Sportsmen Association
13 Mr. Roy Callais, (Sport Fisherman)
14 Mr. Larry Whigham, TOMA
15 Mr. Jerry Norris, (Petitioners Representative)
16 Mr. Greg Schomburg, Washington County Wildlife
17 Society
18 Mr. Richard Moore, (Self)
19 Mr. Ronald Hornbeck, Hornbeck Seafood Company
20 Mr. Walter W. Zimmerman, Texas Shrimp Association
21 Ms. Muriel Tipps, Matagorda County Seafood
22 Representative
23 Mr. George Wilkinson, C-dontal Pipeline Company
24
25
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3
1 APRIL 4, 2002
2 MORNING SESSION:
3 *-*-*-*-*
4 PUBLIC HEARING
5 *-*-*-*-*
6
7 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Good morning,
8 everyone. The meeting is called to order. Before
9 proceeding with any business, I believe Mr. Cook
10 has a statement to make.
11 MR. COOK: Madame Chairman,
12 Commissioners, a public notice of this meeting
13 containing all items on the proposed agenda has
14 been filed in the office of Secretary of State, as
15 required by Chapter 551 of the Government Code,
16 referred to as the Open Meetings Law. I would
17 like for this action to be noted in the official
18 record of this meeting.
19 To touch on some of our ground rules
20 today very quickly so that everyone will have a
21 chance to address the Commission in an orderly
22 fashion, the following ground rules will be
23 followed. The Chairman is in charge of the
24 meeting, and by law it is her duty to preserve
25 order, direct the order of the hearing, and
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4
1 recognize persons to be heard. I will be
2 assisting the Chairman today as sergeant-at-arms.
3 We have sign-up cards for everyone
4 wishing to speak, and the Chairman will call names
5 from those cards one at a time. Each person will
6 be allowed to speak from the podium one at a time.
7 When your name is called, please come to the
8 podium, state your name and who you represent, if
9 anyone other than yourself. Then state your
10 position on the agenda item under consideration
11 and add supporting facts that will help the
12 Commission understand your concern.
13 Please limit your remarks to the
14 specific agenda item under consideration. Each
15 person who wants to address the Commission will
16 have three minutes to speak. I will keep track of
17 the time and will notify you when your three
18 minutes is up with this handy little clock right
19 here. When your time is up, please resume your
20 seat so that others may speak.
21 Your time may be extended if a
22 commissioner has a question for you. If the
23 Commissioners ask you a question or discuss
24 something among themselves, that time will not be
25 counted against your time. Statements that are
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5
1 merely argumentative or critical of others will
2 not be tolerated. There is a microphone at the
3 podium, so it is not necessary to raise your
4 voice.
5 I also ask that you show proper
6 respect for the Commissioners, as well as other
7 members of the audience. Disruptive or offensive
8 behavior will be grounds for immediate ejection
9 from the meeting. If you have written materials
10 to submit to the Commission, please give them to
11 Ms. Lori Estrada here on my right. Ms. Estrada
12 will pass the written materials to the
13 commissioners. Thank you.
14 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Thank you,
15 Mr. Cook.
16 AGENDA ITEM NO. 1: APPROVAL OF AGENDA
17 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Next is the
18 approval of the minutes, January, February, and
19 March meetings, which have already been
20 distributed. Is there a motion for approval?
21 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: So moved.
22 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: So moved
23 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Motion by
24 Commissioner Fitzsimons, second by Commissioner
25 Ramos. All in favor say aye.
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6
1 ("Aye").
2 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: All opposed.
3 Hearing none, motion carries.
4 (Motion passes.)
5 Next is the acceptance of gifts,
6 which has also been distributed. Is there a
7 motion for approval?
8
9 TPWD DONATIONS OF $500 OR MORE
10 (Donors are listed in the following order:
11 Donor; Description; Purpose of Donation)
12
13 (1) Coastal Bend Bays and Estuary Program; 200
traps; 2002 Abandoned Crab Trap Removal
14 Program
(2) HEB; CASH; 2002 Abandoned Crab Trap
15 Removal
(3) Texas State Council, Quail Unlimited;
16 Herbicide; Matador WMA brush control
project
17 (4) Wal-Mart; CASH; CCA/CPL
(5) Friends of Garner SP; Construction of
18 multi-use recreation court; Garner SP
(6) Octagon; Computer equipment; Cedar Hill SP
19 (7) Texas Bighorn Society; food; Texas Grand
Slam Hunt
20 (8) Mr. Thomas Wilson; electronic equipment;
Lake Whitney SP
21 (9) Coastal Conservation Association; radar
unit; Law Enforcement Region X
22 (10) Saltwater Fisheries Enhancement
Association; bullet-proof vests; Law
23 Enforcement Region X
(11) Mrs. Lyndon B. Johnson (LBJ Company);
24 CASH; repair and renovation of existing
trails
25 (12) Bike Lane; bikes; bike race at park
(13) Titus County Freshwater Supply District
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7
1 #1; T-shirts; 11th Annual Kids Fishing Day
(14) DOW Chemical Company; CASH; The Great
2 Texas Birding Classic
(15) Aransas Pass Chamber of Commerce; CASH;
3 The Great Texas Birding Classic
(16) Houghton Mifflin Company; field guides;
4 The Great Texas Birding Classic
(17) Whataburger; coupons; The Great Texas
5 Birding Classic
(18) DOW Chemical Company; CASH; The Great
6 Texas Birding Classic
(19) Fermata, Inc.; CASH; The Great Texas
7 Birding Classic
(20) Bushnell Performance Optics; CASH and
8 Scopes; The Great Texas Birding Classic
(21) Simpson Optics; CASH; The Great Texas
9 Birding Classic
(22) Parks and Wildlife Foundation, Inc.; CASH;
10 The Great Texas Birding Classic
(23) Brownsville CVB; CASH; The Great Texas
11 Birding Classic
(24) Rockport Fulton Area COC; CASH; The Great
12 Texas Birding Classic
TOTAL: $94,046.49
13
14
15 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: Move
16 approval.
17 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Second.
18 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Motion by
19 Commissioner Montgomery. Second by
20 Commissioner Ramos. All in favor, please say
21 aye.
22 ("Aye.")
23 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Any opposed?
24 Hearing none, motion carries.
25 (Motion passes.)
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8
1 Next are the retirement certificates
2 and service awards. Mr. Cook, would you please
3 make the presentations.
4 MR. COOK: Madame Chairman,
5 Commissioners, we have an unusual group of
6 folks here today. I ran into a couple of them
7 in the hall, and some of them have more years
8 of service in this business than I do. So I
9 think it's a real treat for us to see many of
10 these people today, and I hope you'll join me
11 in welcoming them.
12 First, a retirement certificate for
13 Joe Kraai, conservation scientist for Inland
14 Fisheries in Canyon, Texas with 31 years of
15 service. I was fortunate enough recently to
16 attend Joe Kraai's retirement party at
17 San Angelo, and I will tell you I wish you had
18 all been there. It was very nice and very
19 enjoyable, and it was an honor for me to be
20 there. Joe began his career in 1971 as a fish
21 and wildlife technician at the Sheldon Wildlife
22 Management Area. In 1972, Joe was promoted to
23 biologist. In 1973, he moved to Canyon as the
24 leader of the district fisheries management
25 team. He served in that role for 24 years,
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9
1 until in 1977, when he became the Inland
2 Fisheries regional director in San Angelo.
3 Joe is a respected professional
4 fisheries manager, both in Texas and in the
5 United States, and has numerous professional
6 and popular publications to his credit. He's
7 played a major role in the division's
8 reputation as a national leader in innovative,
9 aggressive Fisheries Management. His work in
10 the Panhandle with walleye and small mouth bass
11 have forever changed fishing in that area.
12 However, his lasting contribution to
13 this agency, to each of us and to his
14 profession, is the impact he has had on the
15 development of Fisheries personnel. He has
16 ensured that his work ethic, his philosophies,
17 his loyalties to his constituents and his
18 integrity was passed along to all of his staff
19 and many of his peers. And this is a good
20 thing for Texas and a good thing for Texas
21 Parks & Wildlife. With 31 years of service in
22 Inland Fisheries Division, Joe Kraai has really
23 made a difference. Joe Kraai.
24 (Photographs taken; applause.)
25 MR. COOK: Thank you. Next,
.
10
1 Johnnie B. Freeman, in the State Parks
2 Division, an administrative tech II at Jasper,
3 Texas with 26 years of service is retiring.
4 Johnnie began her employment at Martin Dies,
5 Jr. State Park in June of 1974 as a seasonal
6 employee. In 1977, she became a full-time
7 employee and has worked at that state park
8 throughout her entire career and done us a
9 great job. Johnnie B. Freeman.
10 (Photographs taken; applause.)
11 MR. COOK: Before I go through this
12 next one, is Bob Carroll here? I think they
13 would have to drag him in on a stretcher if he
14 were, so I'm going to skip over this one.
15 We'll catch him next time. I'm not going to
16 let him off the hook, I just want y'all to
17 know. We're going to have some fun with him.
18 In the service awards group, again,
19 like I said, I ran into some of these guys. I
20 ran into this first gentleman this morning and
21 we had a nice visit. Mac Caudle in the Law
22 Enforcement Division, Captain Game Warden at
23 Fort Stockton, Texas. I've known Mac forever,
24 since he was a little kid, as you would say.
25 Mac entered the 20th game warden academy on
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11
1 February the 1st, 1967; and upon completion was
2 assigned to Del Rio. In 1971, he transferred
3 to Eldorado and served in Schleicher County
4 until 1975, when he moved to Midland. After
5 serving there for over five years, he moved to
6 San Angelo. In 1991, he was promoted to
7 lieutenant. And in 1994, returned to Del Rio
8 as a district supervisor. In 1999, he moved to
9 Fort Stockton as District III Supervisor and
10 has been there since. Mac Caudle.
11 (Photographs taken; applause.)
12 MR. COOK: Mac said this morning
13 that he had noticed -- he said this morning
14 that he had noticed that everybody else around
15 him was getting old but that he was still the
16 same. I think he's right.
17 Another gentleman that I've known a
18 long time and many of us have known, Robert Wes
19 Clogston, Jr., Law Enforcement Division, Major
20 Game Warden in Houston, Texas, with 35 years of
21 service. On February the 1st, 1967, Wes
22 Clogston entered the 20th Game Warden Academy
23 held at Texas A&M University. Upon
24 successfully completing the course studies, Wes
25 was stationed at High Island, Texas for a
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12
1 period of just over four years. When I see
2 that, I figure he got in some kind of trouble
3 while he was at the academy. He then was
4 reassigned to Huntsville, Walker County, Texas
5 where in the year of 1978, Wes was honored with
6 a Shikar Safari Wildlife Officer of the Year
7 award. In November of 1986, Wes was promoted
8 to the position of District Supervisor based in
9 Kingsville, Texas. After approximately six
10 years, Wes then transferred to the District
11 Supervisor's position located in Tyler.
12 November 1, 1996, Wes was promoted to his
13 present position of Major Game Warden, Region
14 IV, based in the North Houston Regional Office.
15 Wes Clogston, 35 years of service, Law
16 Enforcement Division.
17 (Photographs taken; applause.)
18 MR. COOK: I said that for all these
19 young cadets that we've got here today. Keep
20 an eye on this guy. Thank you, Wes.
21 I tell you, the 20th Game Warden
22 Class must have been quite a group. I -- Terry
23 Joy, another graduate of the 20th Game Warden
24 Class in the Law Enforcement Division, Captain
25 Game Warden, Brownwood, Texas, 35 years of
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13
1 service. Graduated from the academy in
2 February 1967, was assigned to Llano County.
3 He was a game warden in Llano County for 18
4 years, and that's where I first got to know
5 Terry; and what a fine gentleman he is. In
6 December 1985, he was assigned to District 1,
7 Region 1, as a district supervisor and moved to
8 San Angelo. He was there until January of 1992
9 and transferred to District I, Region 7 as
10 District Supervisor of the Brownwood District,
11 where he remains today. My friend, Terry Joy.
12 (Photographs taken; applause.)
13 MR. COOK: Preston Miculka, Law
14 Enforcement Division, Captain Game Warden,
15 La Marque, Texas, 35 years of service. Another
16 graduate of the 20th Game Warden Academy,
17 Preston was employed with the TPWD on February
18 the 1st, 1967 and stationed in Galveston. In
19 1971, he transferred to Alvin in
20 Brazoria County. In 1974, he was promoted to
21 District Supervisor of the Galveston District
22 and remains there today. Preston Miculka, Law
23 Enforcement Division, 35 years of service.
24 Preston.
25 (Photographs taken; applause.)
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14
1 MR. COOK: Yeah, Stinebaugh was also
2 in that class. You young cadets really pay
3 attention here. This is important.
4 Richard E. Thomas, Law Enforcement
5 Division, Game Warden V, Corsicana, Texas. 35
6 years of service. Richard Thomas began his
7 career with TPWD in February 1967 after
8 graduating from the 20th Game Warden Academy at
9 Texas A&M University. His first duty
10 assignment was at George West in Live Oak,
11 County, Texas. In June 1979, he promoted to
12 District Supervisor in Nueces County and
13 transferred to Uvalde, Texas. Richard's final
14 transfer takes him to Navarro County at
15 Corsicana, Texas, where he remains today.
16 Richard E Thomas, Game Warden V, 35 years of
17 service.
18 (Photographs taken; applause.)
19 MR. COOK: Well, here is another
20 one. Carl D. Frentress, Wildlife Division,
21 Program Specialist, Athens, Texas, with 30
22 years of service. Carl began his career with
23 TPWD in February 1972 as a wildlife technician
24 to assist our old friend, Bob West, on the
25 Lower Coast waterfowl project stationed in
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15
1 Corpus Christi. In 1973, he was promoted to
2 wildlife biologist for the first team of our
3 nongame staff. In 1975, he was assigned as
4 project leader for the statewide
5 habitat-mapping project. In 1977, he
6 transferred to Athens as a wildlife biologist
7 for the middle counties of the Trinity-Brazos
8 wildlife regulatory district.
9 A career goal and life dream to work
10 as a waterfowl biologist in his native East
11 Texas was realized in 1982, when Carl became
12 the regional waterfowl biologist for North
13 Central and Northeast Texas. Carl still holds
14 this position today in Athens, Texas.
15 His major career accomplishments
16 include: providing technical consultation
17 regarding legislation leading to the wildlife
18 tax valuation in Texas; assisting with the
19 Tarrant Regional Water District construction
20 and operation of a water-treatment wetlands on
21 the Richland Creek Wildlife Management Area;
22 and contributing to the four-state partnership
23 in integrated bird conservation on the West
24 Gulf Coast Plain Initiative of the Lower
25 Mississippi Valley Joint Venture. Carl
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16
1 Frentress, 30 years of service, Wildlife
2 Division, Athens, Texas.
3 (Photographs taken; applause.)
4 MR. COOK: Michael H. Gaddis, in the
5 State Parks Division with 30 years of service,
6 Manager II, Denison, Texas. Mike Gaddis began
7 his employment with TPWD as an intern in the
8 summers of 1970 and 1971. His career
9 assignments include Park Ranger III at Lake
10 Livingston State Park, Park Manager at
11 Daingerfield State Park, Park Manager at Caddo
12 Lake State Park, and Park Manager in the
13 Eisenhower Complex today. Mike Gaddis has done
14 us a great job in State Parks, 30 years of
15 service.
16 (Photographs taken; applause.)
17 MR. COOK: Another 30-year employee,
18 Hayden Haucke in the Wildlife Division, Manager
19 II, Tennessee Colony, Texas. Hayden began
20 employment with TPWD's Wildlife Division in
21 February 1972 as a wildlife technician in Paris
22 after obtaining a master's degree in wildlife
23 science at Texas A&M University. Two years
24 later, he was promoted to wildlife biologist
25 and became a regulatory biologist for those
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17
1 northeast Texas Counties that were not under
2 regulatory law regulations at the time.
3 He transferred to the 11,000-acre
4 Gus Engeling Wildlife Management Area as a
5 wildlife biologist in 1983 and became the area
6 manager there in 1984. He assumed
7 responsibility for the newly acquired
8 13,800-acre Richland Creek Wildlife Management
9 Area in 1987. In 2001, he was named the
10 project manager of the Middle Trinity River
11 Ecosystems Project, which include the Gus
12 Engeling Wildlife Management Area, Richland
13 Creek Wildlife Management Area, Big Lake
14 Bottom, Cedar Creek Islands, and Keechi Creek
15 Wildlife Management Area. And this is his
16 current position.
17 Highlights of his career included
18 liberalizing all of our public use activities
19 on our wildlife management areas; establishing
20 a livestock grazing system on these areas;
21 implementing interpretive walking and driving
22 nature tours; expanding prescribed burning on
23 our wildlife management areas and in
24 association with our private lands program;
25 expanding research activities; establishing 200
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18
1 acres of shallow water-treatment wetlands on
2 Richland Creek Wildlife Management Area; and
3 establishing a productive partnership with TDCJ
4 to use inmate labor on our wildlife management
5 areas, including on-site camps for 400 inmates
6 in 1994 and 200 inmates in 1995. Hayden
7 Haucke, Wildlife Division, 30 years of service.
8 (Photographs taken; applause.)
9 MR. COOK: Betty Simms in the Law
10 Enforcement Division is getting her 30 years
11 service award this -- today. She's an
12 Administrative Technician III at Beaumont,
13 Texas. Betty began working for the department
14 in July of 1971 at the Lufkin Law Enforcement
15 Office and retired there in September 1998.
16 She moved back to -- she moved to Beaumont and
17 went back to work for the Beaumont Law
18 Enforcement District Office in March of 1999,
19 where she serves us today. Betty Sims, 30
20 years of service, Law Enforcement Division.
21 (Photographs taken; applause.)
22 MR. COOK: I had to look at this one
23 twice. I didn't know for sure who Robert L.
24 Singleton, Jr., was, but it turns out it's Bob
25 Singleton, Infrastructure Division, Manager IV,
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19
1 here in Austin, Texas with 30 years of service.
2 And we all know Bob Singleton.
3 Bob began his career with TPWD in
4 March of 1972, when the Master Planning Program
5 was under the State Parks Division. As a
6 licensed architect, he has served in various
7 positions over the years, such as park planner,
8 project manager, and acting head of the Master
9 Planning Program in the Infrastructure
10 Division.
11 Bob has been responsible for
12 preparing environmentally sensitive park
13 development plans for numerous State Parks
14 during his 30-year tenure, including Mustang
15 Island, Guadalupe River, Brazos Bend, Caprock
16 Canyons, Lake Ray Roberts, Mustang Island,
17 Choke Canyon, Franklin Mountains, and Big Bend
18 Ranch and many more.
19 Bob is currently our TxDOT program
20 coordinator in the Infrastructure Division.
21 The TxDOT program is a $5-million a year
22 program to develop and maintain our roads and
23 parking areas throughout the sites within Texas
24 Parks & Wildlife Department. Bob Singleton,
25 Infrastructure Division, with 30 years of
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20
1 service.
2 (Photographs taken; applause.)
3 MR. COOK: All right. Danny
4 Swepston in the Wildlife Division, Manager II
5 in Canyon, Texas with 30 years of service.
6 Danny began his career in 1972 in Nacogdoches
7 as a Wildlife Technician II working on
8 endangered species and habitat acquisition.
9 After about a year and a half, he transferred
10 to Austin as a Biologist I when the nongame
11 program was expanded. He was promoted to a
12 Biologist II while in Austin; and after three
13 years, he transferred to Alpine where he was
14 responsible for nongame activities in the
15 Trans-Pecos area of Texas. After three years,
16 he was reassigned to the Trans-Pecos Regulatory
17 District where he worked on the district's
18 various projects, wildlife management areas,
19 and was also in charge of the Octillo Wildlife
20 Management Area. In 1990, he was selected for
21 the district leader position, which he holds
22 today in the Texas Panhandle and also serves as
23 our coordinator for the Texas State Bison Herd.
24 Danny Swepston, 30 years of service in the
25 Wildlife Division.
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21
1 (Photographs taken; applause.)
2 MR. COOK: Robert M. Comstock in the
3 State Park Division with 25 years of service,
4 Program Administrator III, Houston, Texas.
5 Rob Comstock started his career with TPWD as a
6 seasonal part-time employee at Galveston Island
7 State Park. During his seven years there, he
8 worked his way through the park ranger ranks,
9 including serving as a park manager of Bryan
10 Beach. In 1984, he became the first Parks
11 Superintendent of Sheldon Lake State Park and
12 Wildlife Management Area, a position he has
13 held since.
14 Rob says he wouldn't trade for his
15 years at Sheldon for any other position in the
16 department, and I don't much blame him. Over
17 the past 18 years, it has allowed him to work
18 with employees from Law Enforcement, Resource
19 Protection, Wildlife, inland and Coastal
20 Fisheries divisions, and last but not least,
21 the Communications division. All have played a
22 role in helping make the Sheldon State Park
23 Wildlife Management Area a special place for
24 all Texans.
25 He looks forward to implementation
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22
1 of the newly completed Master Plan for the
2 park. Rob Comstock, 25 years of service,
3 Houston, Texas.
4 (Photographs taken; applause.)
5 MR. COOK: Robert E. Carlson in the
6 Law Enforcement Division with 20 years of
7 service, Captain Game Warden in Rusk, Texas.
8 Robert graduated from the Game Warden Academy
9 in May of 1982. His duty assignments include
10 Rains County, Gregg County, the Game Warden
11 Training Academy in Austin. He is currently
12 the Captain Game Warden in Rusk, Texas.
13 Robert E. Carlson, 20 years of service, Law
14 Enforcement Division.
15 (Photographs taken; applause.)
16 MR. COOK: Josephine A. Cherry,
17 Accountant IV in the Administrative Resource
18 Division, Austin, Texas, with 20 years of
19 service. Josephine has been employed with TPWD
20 since February of 1982. She currently serves
21 as one of the boat registration supervisors,
22 where she is the State's Technical Advisor for
23 processing vessel and outboard motor documents.
24 Josephine also serves as custodian of records
25 for boat registration. Her TPWD services
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23
1 include trainer and leader of the Natural
2 Quality Team, participant in several strategic
3 planning and public hearings, a member and
4 facilitator for HR Training Team, CFO
5 Certificate Team; CFO Problem Solving Team,
6 participant of TPWD Volunteer Outreach Weekend
7 Program and Big Sister Lunch Hour Volunteer for
8 TPWD and Palm Elementary. Josephine also
9 serves, in her spare time, as Girl Scout Leader
10 for Brownie Troop Number 1149 in South Austin.
11 Josephine Cherry, Administrative Resources, 20
12 years of service.
13 (Photographs taken; applause.)
14 MR. COOK: Fred Churchill, Game
15 Warden, Law Enforcement Division in Belton,
16 Texas has 20 years of service. Fred graduated
17 from the Texas Game Warden Training Academy in
18 May of 1982. His first duty station was
19 Groveton in Trinity County. In 1984, he
20 transferred to Marlin in Falls County. He
21 remained in Falls County until February 1987,
22 when he referred to Georgetown in
23 Williamson County. In May of 1996, he
24 transferred to Belton in Bell County, where he
25 remains today. And in March 2002, he was
.
24
1 promoted to Sergeant Investigator with the
2 newly created Marine Theft Unit. Fred E.
3 Churchill, Law Enforcement Division, with 20
4 years of service.
5 (Photographs taken; applause.)
6 MR. COOK: Gary Wayne Dugan, Law
7 Enforcement Division, Lieutenant Game Warden,
8 Austin, Texas, with 20 years of service. Gary
9 graduated from the 36th Game Warden Training
10 Academy in May of 1982. He was stationed in
11 Marion County. In March of 1987, he
12 transferred to Rains County. And in June 2001,
13 he was promoted to Lieutenant at the Game
14 Warden Training Academy. He is a recipient of
15 the 1999 Marine Safety Officer of the Year
16 Award. Gary Wayne Dugan, Law Enforcement
17 Division, 20 years of service.
18 (Photographs taken; applause.)
19 MR. COOK: Michael E. Keeney, in the
20 Law Enforcement Division at Orange, Game
21 Warden V, has 20 years of service. Mike
22 entered the Game Warden Academy in January of
23 1982. His first duty assignment was in
24 Galveston County. After permission was granted
25 for transfer to Orange, he remains there today.
.
25
1 Mike has survived four supervisors and one
2 alligator bite. I don't know if I want to know
3 that story or not. He has received recognition
4 from Mothers Against Drunk Drivers for his work
5 in BWI enforcement. Everyone in the area knows
6 him as "Big Mike." Mike Keeney, Law
7 Enforcement Division, 20 years of service.
8 (Photographs taken; applause.)
9 MR. COOK: Stinebaugh said to get
10 out of the academy, all the cadets gotta go
11 through him. I'm afraid we may have lost them
12 there, Jim.
13 Leroy Polnick in the Law Enforcement
14 Division with 20 years of service. Leroy is a
15 Game Warden V in Brownwood, Texas. Leroy
16 graduated from the 36th Game Warden Academy in
17 May of 1982. His first duty station was in
18 Silsbee in Hardin, County. In June of 1985, he
19 transferred to Brownwood, Texas and has been in
20 Brown County since that time.
21 Leroy's accomplishments include
22 recognition for water-related life saving
23 efforts on numerous occasions during his career
24 in Hardin, Brown, and Coleman Counties, both on
25 the local and national level. In 1990, he was
.
26
1 recognized by the Brown County Police Officers
2 Association for his outstanding leadership and
3 service. Leroy has also been recognized by the
4 Texas Adjutant General's Office for support
5 given to the Military Forces of Texas. Leroy
6 Polnick, Law Enforcement Division, Brownwood,
7 Texas with 20 years of service.
8 (Photographs taken; applause.)
9 MR. COOK: I believe that concludes
10 our service awards and retirements. Thank you.
11 AGENDA ITEM NO. 1: APPROVAL OF AGENDA
12 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: The first order of
13 the business is the approval of the agenda
14 which we have before us. Is there a motion for
15 approval?
16 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: Move.
17 COMMISSIONER WATSON: Second.
18 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Have a motion by
19 Commissioner Montgomery, a second by
20 Commissioner Watson. All in favor please say
21 aye?
22 ("Aye.")
23 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Any opposed?
24 Hearing none, motion carries.
25 (Motion passes.)
.
27
1 AGENDA ITEM NO. 2: ACTION - LOCAL PARK FUNDING.
2 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: This brings us to
3 Agenda Item Number 2. It's an action item,
4 Urban Park and Recreation Recovery Program.
5 Mr. Hogsett, would you please make your
6 presentation.
7 MR. HOGSETT: Madame Chairman,
8 members of the Commission, I'm Tim Hoggset from
9 the Recreation Grants branch of the State Parks
10 Division. The Urban Parks and Recreation
11 Recovery Program is a program -- grant program
12 of the National Parks Service. And it provides
13 assistance on a matching basis to local
14 governments for the rehabilitation of primarily
15 inner city recreation facilities.
16 All the funding decisions are made
17 by the federal government, and the federal
18 share can range anywhere from 70 to 85 percent
19 match, depending on whether the states make a
20 contribution. A state contribution towards the
21 match makes our projects in Texas that would be
22 submitted more competitive.
23 There is approximately $29 million
24 available nationally for the program for a --
25 under a national competition. And we are
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28
1 eligible for approximately 15 percent or 4.3
2 million of that in Texas communities. In the
3 past, Parks & Wildlife has participated at a
4 10-percent match level, leaving a 5-percent
5 match requirement for the local governments,
6 the idea being that there needs -- should be
7 some participation at the local level.
8 Any of the funds that we would set
9 aside for potential Texas-approved projects
10 that are not successful or not used would be
11 returned to the Texas Recreation and Parks
12 account.
13 Therefore, the staff is making the
14 following recommendation, that funding in the
15 amount of $433,500 is reserved to be used at
16 the discretion of the executive director to
17 match 10 percent of the costs of any UPARR
18 projects approved by the National Park Service
19 for Texas local governments. I'd be glad to
20 answer your questions.
21 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Is there any
22 discussion by the Commissioners? There is no
23 one, I believe, signed up to speak on this.
24 Does the staff have any comments? Are there
25 any comments at all from the Commission?
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29
1 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: Move approval of
2 the recommendation.
3 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: Second.
4 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: I have a motion by
5 Commissioner Angelo, a second by Commissioner
6 Montgomery. All in favor, please say aye.
7 ("Aye.")
8 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Any opposed?
9 Hearing none, motion carries.
10 (Motion passes.)
11 "Funding in the amount of up to $433,500 is
12 reserved to be used, at the direction of the
13 Executive Director, to match 10% of the cost
14 for UPARR projects approved by the National
15 Park Service for Texas local governments."
16 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Thank you, Tim.
17 AGENDA ITEM NO. 3: ACTION - TPWD FACILITY
18 TRANSFERS.
19 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: The next item is
20 Agenda Item No. 3. It's an action item. The
21 Lake Rita State Park transfer. Mr. Dabney,
22 will you make your presentation. Well, Mr.
23 Dabney is not here.
24 MR. BUNN: Madame Chairman and
25 Commissioners, I'm Bruce Bunn. I'm the
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30
1 regional director headquartered in Lubbock.
2 The item before you concerns an approval of
3 facility transfer of Lake Rita Blanca State
4 Park. Lake Rita Blanca State Park is the
5 northernmost park in our system. It's located
6 in Dalhart, and it consists of approximately
7 1666 -- 68 acres. It was acquired in 1990
8 through 101-year lease with Dallam and Hartley
9 Counties. It opened to the public in 1994 as a
10 wildlife management area and became a state
11 park in 1995. It's currently a day-use park.
12 We don't have any overnight facilities. And we
13 also don't charge a fee for this park. The
14 authority for this transfer comes from the
15 76th Legislature. House Bill 2108 authorized
16 grants for interim operation and maintenance of
17 Texas Parks & Wildlife sites being transferred
18 to a political subdivision such as the City of
19 Dalhart. A total of $2 million is available
20 each year for the fiscal year 2002/2003
21 biennium. These grants must be based upon a
22 proposal from the political subdivision. The
23 City of Dalhart has submitted just such a
24 proposal for Lake Rita Blanca that the staff
25 finds acceptable.
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31
1 And today, we do have the city
2 manager of Dalhart, Greg Duggan, with us. I
3 believe he'll speak. The grant the City of
4 Dalhart has requested is for $397,286. This
5 will be used for various park repairs and
6 enhancements. It will include three lookouts
7 for birding, hiking and trail improvements.
8 They're going to build two restrooms and a
9 large group pavilion and a playground, as well.
10 Staff's recommendation is the
11 executive director is authorized to execute the
12 necessary agreements to effect the transfer of
13 Lake Rita Blanca State Park for operations to
14 the City of Dalhart as a city park site. All
15 state park references will be removed. The
16 executive director is authorized to execute a
17 grant agreement in the amount of $397,286,
18 using fund from the Texas Recreation and Parks
19 account to effect the orderly transfer of this
20 site. Questions?
21 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Is there any
22 discussion from the Commission?
23 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: I'm happy
24 to make a motion.
25 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: No, we've got
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32
1 someone signed up to speak today. We have one
2 speaker, Greg Duggan from Dalhart.
3 MR. DUGGAN: Madame Chairman and
4 Commissioners, I just wanted to thank you on
5 behalf of the Dalhart City Council and Mayor
6 for this opportunity. I know it's going to be
7 in the best interest of our citizens and the
8 state as a whole. Just thanks very much.
9 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Thank you. Are
10 there any further comments from the Commission?
11 Is there a motion on this item?
12 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: I move we
13 accept the recommendation and move approval.
14 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Second.
15 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Motion by
16 Commissioner Montgomery, second by Commissioner
17 Ramos. All in favor, please say aye.
18 ("Aye.")
19 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Any opposed?
20 Motion carries.
21 (Motion passes.)
22 "The Executive Director is authorized to
23 execute the necessary agreements to effect the
24 transfer of Lake Rita Blanca State Park for
25 operations to the City of Dalhart as a city
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33
1 park site. All 'state park' references to the
2 site shall be removed. The Executive Director
3 is authorized to execute a grant agreement in
4 the amount of $397,286 using funds from the
5 Texas Recreation and Parks Account to effect
6 the orderly transfer of this site."
7 AGENDA NO. 4: ACTION - CERVID
8 DISEASE-SCIENTIFIC BREEDER REGULATIONS
9 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Agenda No. 4 is an
10 action item dealing with cervid disease issues.
11 Mr. Cooke, would you please make your
12 presentation.
13 DR. COOKE: Madame Chairman, and
14 members, my name is Jerry Cooke, Game Branch
15 Chief of the Wildlife Division. I'll be
16 presenting to you this issue related to the
17 cervid diseases in less detail than we covered
18 yesterday, but I'll be happy to do the
19 questions as we get through them.
20 Since the emergency action
21 March 11th, I told you yesterday that six
22 states had actually closed their borders to
23 importation. I was incorrect at that time.
24 That was actually seven states because I had
25 missed Arkansas in my listing. Also, the Texas
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34
1 Animal Health Commission has suspended
2 importation -- importation permits for elk,
3 which effectively closes importation of those,
4 as well. And we've had many, many meetings
5 with the Texas Animal Health Commission to work
6 out protocols and procedures for dealing with
7 the illegal animals as they come to the state,
8 if they come to the state.
9 In response to that, Operation Game
10 Thief Committee has also established the
11 largest reward I think they've ever assessed
12 for information leading to the conviction of
13 anyone who would illegally bring white tail or
14 mule deer into this state.
15 Also, there are a couple of pending
16 actions of the Texas Animal Health Commission,
17 as I understand them, from their last meeting.
18 One would be to effectively provide the
19 executive director of the authority to embargo
20 a state that she feels -- finds at risk of
21 infecting Texas. Also, there's -- they're
22 establishing -- or I believe they will be
23 establishing entry requirements for elk, white
24 tail deer, or mule deer and black tail deer in
25 Texas.
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35
1 This action item includes an
2 adoption of an importation suspension in Texas
3 for white tail deer and mule deer, which would
4 supersede and replace your emergency action of
5 March 11th, if you so choose. Also, in
6 January, we discussed the definition of a
7 healthy condition, which is described in the
8 statute but not defined in statute. And we
9 proposed at that time that our rules reflect a
10 definition that is simply says that a deer from
11 a facility having a chronic wasting disease
12 monitoring program and a tuberculosis herd
13 accreditation status or has an approved herd
14 health management plan from the Texas Animal
15 Health Commission would, in fact, be in healthy
16 condition by definition.
17 We also propose to link that
18 definition to a regulation which clarified the
19 statute in saying that unless an animal were in
20 a healthy condition based on this definition,
21 they could not be sold, offered for sale,
22 transported anywhere except to a veterinarian
23 for health reasons, temporarily transferred, or
24 released into the wild.
25 In several meetings with the Texas
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36
1 Deer Association, they proposed to us a
2 possible action which they have been following
3 up on. And I believe someone from the Texas
4 Deer Association may speak today on this issue.
5 They basically offered to take the lead, both
6 in effort and finances, to bring the BTB blood
7 tests back into Texas, which would be good for
8 everyone if that happened; and also to put
9 significant pressure onto their membership to
10 enter a voluntary testing and monitoring
11 program with the Animal Health Commission if we
12 would postpone actually adopting the definition
13 that I just described for you. And our staff
14 recommendation is that we, in fact, do that;
15 that we adopt the importation suspension but
16 postpone taking any action on the testing and
17 monitoring program at this time, to allow the
18 Texas Deer Association an opportunity to move
19 forward on their offer.
20 The recommended motion would be the
21 Texas Parks & Wildlife Commission adopts 31
22 TAC -- and this would not be accurate. We
23 would only be adopting 65.609 and 65.610
24 concerning cervid diseases in the Scientific
25 Breeder Proclamation with changes to the
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37
1 proposed text as published in the Texas
2 Register, if you choose to take that action.
3 Otherwise, we would be adopting all of the
4 sections proposed. Do we have any questions?
5 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Do we have any
6 questions from the Commission?
7 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: Well, I think
8 I've got a couple of questions but I'd like to
9 wait and hear from those registered to speak.
10 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: I do. I have quite
11 a few people registered to speak. Why don't --
12 DR. COOKE: Madame Chairman, I also
13 failed to recognize that Doctor Linda Logan,
14 executive director of the Animal Health
15 Commission, is present at the meeting. I don't
16 know if she intends to speak or not. But I
17 wanted you to know that she was here providing
18 moral support that we provide them when they
19 have their meetings, as well.
20 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: I saw that
21 Doctor Logan was here. Would you please stand,
22 Doctor Logan? Thank you.
23 (Applause.)
24 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: We will now hear
25 from those who signed up to speak. I'd like to
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38
1 remind you that you have three minutes. I will
2 announce the two people that are in line to
3 speak so that the second person can get ready
4 and so forth.
5 The first person is Gene Riser of
6 the Texas Deer Association. Following him,
7 Ellis Gilleland.
8 MR. RISER: Madame Chairman and
9 esteemed Commissioners, I've enjoyed the
10 meeting very much this morning. It's good
11 could to be with you. I especially enjoyed all
12 those introductions and recognitions of all
13 those valuable and dedicated employees. It was
14 impressive. It was worth the time. Thank you
15 very much.
16 I really came for something else,
17 but that was good to see as I sat here. And
18 Karl saved us a real nice place there on the
19 second row. I appreciate that.
20 My comments had to do with this
21 cervid disease, but I will defer to Karl, who I
22 had hoped would talk ahead and explain what our
23 position will be and what we offer to do with
24 our members to help move this along and get
25 control of these diseases as well as we can.
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39
1 Thank you very much.
2 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Thank you. Ellis
3 Gilleland and then Karl Kinsel.
4 MR. GILLELAND: I'll give you a
5 second handout at the end of the -- my name is
6 Ellis Gilleland. I'm a private citizen. I'm
7 representing Texas Animals, which is an animal
8 rights organization on the Internet.
9 There are three items on the table,
10 ladies and gentlemen, not one. The first item
11 is -- we can dispense with real fast. I've
12 given you copies of all three. The first one
13 is, you've answered yourself the motion that
14 Jerry put up here. The motion is -- or the
15 recommendation of the staff was postponed
16 adoption of mandatory testing, monitoring
17 proposal to determine if the Texas Deer
18 Association can be successful. That has never
19 been published in the Texas Register;
20 therefore, it has no validity. And you,
21 yourself, said it's fraudulent by -- in your
22 statement here of the notice to the Secretary
23 of State, you say, "However, the Department
24 cannot foresee that importation would reach
25 unprecedented rates as persons sought to
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40
1 acquire cervid from out-of-state sources in
2 anticipation of the pending regulatory
3 suspension." I.e., in January, you imported in
4 the State 95; in February, these yahoos
5 imported 253. They have no good faith. Cut
6 them off at the pass, ladies and gentlemen.
7 The second item you have that's
8 published on the 1st of March was the proposal,
9 the foundation motion, which is on the screen.
10 It has at the end of it -- the beginning of it
11 has a definition, which emergency rule did not
12 have. Also, this most proposed rule has INJ at
13 the end, which the emergency rule didn't have.
14 And you'll notice that the emergency rule
15 published on the 29th, whereas your regular
16 motion was published on the 1st. So I hardly
17 concur with the first -- the one published on
18 the 1st. I think it shows good faith on the
19 part of your staff and a lot of good staff work
20 and it's tight. It's not tight as far as the
21 scientific breeder because it's handled
22 passively. It's tight as far as the individual
23 got, buying and selling deer and moving them
24 down the road in a livestock trailer. There's
25 nothing passive. It's no good. You lawyers
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41
1 know that. Possession of an animal. The guy
2 sees the game warden coming up the road, so he
3 opens the gate. He has no more possession, the
4 deer are gone. You've got to put it in there
5 thou shalt not, please. So you get him thou
6 shalt not import. And then you get him on the
7 passive side with possession. I dropped a
8 crack pipe between my feet. I'm innocent
9 because that cop can't handcuff me because the
10 crack pipe is on the ground. I've got no
11 possession. The second thing I want to give
12 you is the handout.
13 MR. COOK: Mr. Gilleland, your time
14 is up, sir.
15 MR. GILLELAND: Okay. My time is
16 up, I'm going to give you the handout anyway.
17 Thank you very much for listening.
18 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Karl Kinsel and
19 then Kirby Brown.
20 MR. KINSEL: Madame Chairman,
21 Commission members and Executive Director Cook,
22 I am Karl Kinsel, executive director of the
23 Texas Deer Association. I am speaking today on
24 Item No. 4, the cervid disease issue. Over the
25 past few months, we've enjoyed working with you
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42
1 on CWD problems. It's our extreme desire to
2 continue working very diligently with you and
3 your staff and the Texas Animal Health
4 Commission regarding these important disease
5 issues. We truly are here and want to help.
6 It is our industry and we're very proud of it
7 in working with you and TAHC is mandatory for
8 us. I assure you that we take these issues
9 very seriously. And we request development of
10 a comprehensive plan for monitoring and dealing
11 with CWD and other wildlife issues. The TDA
12 will commit to a sound CWD monitoring program
13 and plan with well-defined goals in regards to
14 the extent of participation by our members,
15 time lines, and evaluation criteria.
16 We propose a goal of 20 percent of
17 our deer breeders apportionately distributed
18 geographically in all regions of our
19 association. We propose a presentation for
20 this commitment to coincide with your May
21 commission meeting. We propose a monitoring
22 period of two years, followed by an evaluation
23 of the results according to the criteria
24 contained in the plan developed cooperatively
25 between TDA and TPWD.
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43
1 An important component of this plan
2 would be contingencies and actions for dealing
3 with CWD in the event that CWD is found within
4 our borders. If it is endemic in our wildlife
5 or within our privately-owned white-tailed
6 deer, nevertheless, we must have a plan that
7 deals with the contingencies of these actions.
8 Included in this plan should also be clear
9 provisions for the indemnification of
10 scientific breeder deer against loss, through a
11 standard class action process.
12 Since increasing wild deer
13 populations throughout the U.S. do constitute a
14 potential hazard to the future of hunting, we
15 further urge and propose that the TPWD
16 Commission take appropriate actions to evaluate
17 reinstating the Wildlife Disease Unit.
18 I, unfortunately, am too young to
19 remember a lot of it, but I hear tremendously
20 good compliments about it. If there is any
21 possibility of that, we really stress to see
22 the reinstatement of the Wildlife Disease Unit
23 within the department for the purpose of
24 monitoring on a statewide basis prevalence of
25 various disease -- prevalent various wildlife
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44
1 vector diseases.
2 MR. COOK: Mr. Kinsel --
3 MR. KINSEL: For your use --
4 MR. COOK: Your time is up, sir.
5 MR. KINSEL: I appreciate your
6 concerns.
7 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Thank you, Karl. I
8 appreciate you being here. And I would like to
9 comment that it has been, indeed a pleasure
10 working with you-all. We're going to have some
11 questions, I feel sure, so if you'll bear with
12 us. Commissioner Angelo has a question for
13 you.
14 MR. KINSEL: Yes, sir.
15 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: One of the -- a
16 basic question, I guess, would be, what your
17 group sees as the problems with the Department
18 defining what a healthy animal is and what the
19 objection would be to a mandatory position
20 like -- such as that.
21 MR. KINSEL: Very good. I'll do my
22 best to answer that. The problems we see with
23 the definition of healthy herd is there isn't a
24 specific definition of healthy herd. We would
25 like to work on that, and that will be within
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45
1 the plan. So what we're doing is actually what
2 you're asking. We're just asking for the time
3 in which to complete that.
4 As far as the -- not having the
5 healthy herd plan and going to the levels of
6 testing for CWD and TB, we do not see that
7 there is a warrant for such at this time. We
8 have not found that within scientific breeder
9 deer. We do hold them in an esteemed situation
10 in which we take more care, place more
11 integrity and more inspection of those animals
12 than anyone, including the State.
13 So we are just asking that that
14 small entity of scientific breeder deer not be
15 overregulated. And given the time that we can
16 provide a means and a method that is not
17 detrimental to us, yet is surveillance
18 adequate.
19 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: And you believe
20 that the -- a 20-percent commitment -- explain
21 exactly what you mean by that.
22 MR. KINSEL: We are -- that's a
23 number that's very arbitrary. But I'll tell
24 you a way we come up with it, in discussions
25 with Ken Waldrup and others -- Doctor Ken
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46
1 Waldrup and others, 9 percent seemed to be a
2 sufficient number. We more than doubled it,
3 just to put it on this piece of paper.
4 I truly believe we will see almost
5 unanimous cooperation from the members that are
6 scientific breeders. Along with that, may I
7 add that we are looking very wholeheartedly
8 into the sentinel animal program, both
9 monetarily and cooperatively with Doctor Jensen
10 at A&M.
11 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: Could you
12 explain exactly, though, what the 20 percent --
13 if 20 percent of the members commit to do
14 exactly what? What will they be committing to
15 do?
16 MR. KINSEL: To follow that plan,
17 the plan that we will develop prior to the next
18 commission meeting and as soon as possible. It
19 is utmost of importance for us to have it
20 yesterday, if not tomorrow. So we will do
21 the -- we will work as fast as you-all can to
22 develop that plan, to have that plan, and
23 hopefully before the commission meeting, not
24 only will the plan be in place, but we will
25 also have some start of some results.
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47
1 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Commissioner
2 Montgomery has a question.
3 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: Well, I
4 was trying to understand this 20-percent issue.
5 Are you -- I'm going to ask the dumb obvious
6 question. But are you suggesting in lieu of
7 what Jerry was discussing, which is a
8 definition of healthy deer in which the Animal
9 Health Commission has an approved plan, which I
10 assume would be a hundred percent compliance in
11 order to define a healthy deer, that you're
12 only proposing 20 percent of the members comply
13 with some other definition of what a healthy
14 animal is?
15 MR. KINSEL: No, sir. We're looking
16 at the 20 percent being in compliance,
17 including the sentinel animal program that we
18 have not brought up but we believe is very
19 advantageous to --
20 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: Could you
21 explain that to me? Because I don't know what
22 that is.
23 MR. KINSEL: Sentinel animal program
24 is taking a animal that is clinically free of
25 any disease, let's call it a goat of under six
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48
1 months of age, born on concrete, put into the
2 pens, it will -- or should contact any variety
3 of diseases, including any internal parasites,
4 et cetera. Postmortem testing that animal or
5 an animal of like kind within the pens at least
6 annually to determine two things: if there is
7 any prevalence of disease; and secondarily, any
8 advantageous things that are going to be to the
9 breeder for their own animals' health. It is a
10 dual purpose, win/win situation, if in fact it
11 can be. To answer your question, we are
12 looking at going above and beyond what's even
13 asked for in the recommendations.
14 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: Jerry, can
15 you help me with the compliance question? I'm
16 trying to understand which way we get better
17 compliance. And I really don't understand the
18 difference here.
19 DR. COOKE: To clarify the sentinel
20 animal thing, first, because that's a good
21 point that he was bringing up. You take an
22 animal that's susceptible to the kinds of
23 diseases you're concerned about, put him in a
24 pen, expose him for a period of time that they
25 can contract it, and then sacrifice that
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49
1 animal. It's a $15 goat as opposed to a $1500
2 deer. That's the advantage of that. What he
3 was proposing is for 20 percent of the
4 permit -- of the scientific breeder permit
5 holders entering into this kind of monitoring
6 testing program with the Animal Health
7 Commission. And I discussed this in some
8 detail with Doctor Baca, who is their, you
9 know, international guru on how to keep track
10 of TB and everything else. And together we did
11 the calculations, you know, the real
12 statistical calculations on how many animals --
13 excuse me, how many facilities you would have
14 to have in a testing program in order to be
15 able to detect a 2-percent prevalence of the
16 disease, which is low. Okay.
17 When you look at the fact that there
18 is like 19,000 animals currently in breeder
19 facilities, there's 467 breeders, and their
20 normal mortality rate is from 12 to 13 percent.
21 That calculated into a monitoring program which
22 suggests that you only had to have 32.5 percent
23 of the facilities actually being monitored to
24 detect this 2 percent level. And this would be
25 150 animals. As Karl was talking about, we
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50
1 were talking arbitrarily about 20 to 30 percent
2 as a number. When it calculates out, it's
3 32.5.
4 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: It's just
5 a number that gives you statistical validity,
6 that's all.
7 DR. COOKE: Statistical validity
8 and --
9 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: Okay.
10 DR. COOKE: -- the highest
11 probability of being able to take that
12 2-percent prevalence.
13 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: But it
14 doesn't take place of the definition you're
15 recommending, which is that healthy animals in
16 a --
17 DR. COOKE: Correct, correct.
18 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: -- Animal
19 Health Commission approved program?
20 DR. COOKE: Absolutely. We're doing
21 separate -- if 32.5 percent of the facilities
22 are not in a monitoring program, we can't
23 detect it, and then we're talking about
24 let's -- we're going to have to go to a
25 mandatory system. I mean, that's what the
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51
1 postponement is all about.
2 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: But we
3 need their goal to be 32 percent, not 20
4 percent.
5 DR. COOKE: Let's put it this way.
6 If they hit 20 percent by May, they're on their
7 way to 32. Let's put it that way.
8 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Commissioner Ramos
9 has a question.
10 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Karl -- and
11 that was -- that's what was bothering me a
12 little bit -- do you anticipate that between
13 now and May you could get it up higher than 32
14 percent? It's obvious to me that the more
15 participants that you have, the better it is
16 for everyone. And you used the word
17 "unanimous" a little while ago. Do you
18 anticipate that if we defer action on defining
19 healthy condition or otherwise that you will
20 have more than 32 percent of the scientific
21 breeders in this program?
22 MR. KINSEL: Let me ask this in
23 conjunction with Jerry, I think the number
24 we're talking about, 32 percent, is number of
25 animals? Breeders?
.
52
1 DR. COOKE: 32 percent of breeders.
2 MR. KINSEL: Okay. If we look at
3 that both on an animal basis numbers wise, I
4 think we're gonna have well over 32 percent of
5 the animals. Because the 20 percent of the
6 breeders are gonna be the larger number
7 breeders. But we can also probably comply very
8 easily with the 32 percent of the breeders. I
9 do not see that being a problem at all. We've
10 been unanimous in the three out of eight region
11 meetings we've had just in the last 15 days
12 regarding such.
13 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: It seems to me
14 that the 32 should be a minimum, but ideally we
15 ought to get as my as high as 80 or 90 percent.
16 I mean, do you agree with that?
17 MR. KINSEL: I do agree with that.
18 I do not see a problem with that. All we
19 really are is we're premature in a lot of the
20 evaluation of what this disease is, how this
21 disease is, and how we circumvent this disease.
22 So as we learn more and do more, we'll be
23 involved more in that area. The sentinel
24 animal program and a few other programs that
25 we're looking at will probably make it
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53
1 unanimous that all breeders are utilizing some
2 type of herd management plan. It is only
3 sensible.
4 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Yeah. If you
5 do that, I'm very compelled to defer the
6 definition of healthy condition. But at the
7 present time, do you-all have a proposed
8 definition of healthy condition?
9 MR. KINSEL: No, sir. That is what
10 we're asking, is the time to develop that,
11 because we --
12 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: How quickly do
13 you feel you can develop that?
14 MR. KINSEL: Same answer. We're
15 looking at yesterday or tomorrow, as soon as
16 possible, working with TPWD on that and TAHC as
17 soon as possible.
18 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: And do you feel
19 that if we defer the definition of healthy
20 condition until the next commission meeting,
21 that that would be more than adequate time
22 for -- to come up with a definition that would
23 be palatable, as you might say, to your
24 breeders?
25 MR. KINSEL: Not only do I feel
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54
1 comfortable with it, it is only common sense.
2 It has to happen.
3 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Okay. Great.
4 Thank you.
5 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Karl, I have a
6 couple of questions. First question -- but
7 first I want to say something, that I think
8 it's clear to you and to your organization that
9 although we all have to take this very, very
10 seriously, this is a precious resource that we
11 have, both as a wildlife resource and as an
12 economic resource, but that folks like you
13 stand to lose probably more than anybody else
14 if we don't deal with this.
15 With that in mind, I'm a little
16 bit -- I'd like to know the percentage of your
17 membership that is currently monitoring. And
18 you say you want to get it to 20 percent.
19 Given the seriousness of this situation, I'm
20 surprised you're not there already.
21 MR. KINSEL: We've not known what
22 plan to monitor under, per se. There are six
23 different operations right now that have been
24 doing this monitoring program even before now,
25 for their own benefits. We all realize how
.
55
1 fast this has come up on us. So I understand
2 your question and I -- and I respect it. And I
3 think if you ask it two or three weeks from
4 now, I could answer it greater better. We're
5 moving as fast -- or hopefully faster than the
6 disease itself.
7 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: I'll ask it in
8 three weeks.
9 MR. KINSEL: You got it.
10 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: I like your time
11 line.
12 MR. KINSEL: Yes, ma'am.
13 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: The second question
14 I have -- and I've got to say, I'm no expert in
15 this, but I have learned a lot in recent
16 times -- is concern with the BTB test that
17 is -- that I believe you have been working to
18 secure from Doctor Frank Griffin in New
19 Zealand.
20 MR. KINSEL: Correct.
21 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: One, I would like
22 to know what the latest is on that; and
23 secondly, I want you to explain why an improved
24 test, which I understand is soon in coming --
25 or might be soon in coming, that would not
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56
1 involve a skin patch test to get the
2 sensitivity level to where it needs to be in
3 order to make the BTB test ethical. Is that
4 right? Could you address those two questions?
5 MR. KINSEL: I sure can. But you
6 just explained probably as much as I know in
7 layman's terms with regards to it, other than
8 that I did get to work extensively with the
9 skin test and the comparative. And then
10 working with Scott Petty's organization and
11 with the fallow deer, we utilize the BTB very
12 successfully. The improvements to that, I
13 believe the ELISA, which is now the LT, will
14 allow us to utilize the BTB without having to
15 inject antigen first.
16 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: How significant is
17 that to your people?
18 MR. KINSEL: It's very significant.
19 There isn't anyone that raises deer even
20 extensively, and certainly not intensively,
21 that does not want to clarify if there is
22 anything within the pens or not. Means and
23 methods has been our only problem, not desire.
24 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Do we have any
25 other questions from the Commission? Joseph
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57
1 Fitzsimons.
2 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:
3 Mr. Kinsel, I want to thank you for your
4 cooperation. We've met various times in our
5 organization. And the commitment is clear, and
6 I want to thank you also for your unconditional
7 support on the suspension of importation. That
8 was very important to us.
9 MR. KINSEL: Thank you.
10 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: And I join
11 the rest of the commissioners, I think, in
12 looking forward to your progress.
13 MR. KINSEL: That will be done.
14 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: And I would
15 like to echo the same thing Joe said. I think
16 this is an extremely sensitive issue that has
17 great implications for the State. And to the
18 extent that you-all can a hundred percent
19 cooperate, it would make our job a lot easier.
20 It's nice to have the rapport and be able to
21 reconcile differences and come up with
22 definitions. So, again, I commend you and your
23 group. Thank you.
24 MR. KINSEL: Thank you.
25 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Kirby Brown. Then
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58
1 Jerry Johnson.
2 MR. BROWN: Madame Chairman,
3 members, my name is Kirby Brown. I'm with the
4 Texas Wildlife Association. And it's very
5 strange to be before you with the TWA instead
6 of with Parks & Wildlife, but I'm glad to do
7 that. It's a great group. Texas Wildlife
8 Association is a conservation organization that
9 owns or controls approximately 40 million acres
10 of wildlife habitat in Texas.
11 We want to thank you for your due
12 deliberation and your work, especially in terms
13 of your work to get to this point. And in the
14 emergency proclamation when the CWD issue
15 became very critical with the Wisconsin deer,
16 we think that's very good. All we want to say
17 today is that we support the staff
18 recommendation. We think it's a good one. We
19 think this will work. And we, too, want to see
20 a rapid time line on the development of the
21 health herd plan. Thank you.
22 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Thank you, Kirby.
23 Jerry Johnston.
24 MR. JOHNSTON: Madame Chairman,
25 Commissioners, I just want to say that I'm real
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59
1 happy with what I'm seeing. And what I mean by
2 that is, is that rather than the Commission and
3 the people with Animal Health Commission, that
4 this thing has been looked at from a scientific
5 standpoint and a fact standpoint and that
6 hysteria hasn't entered into all the kids
7 getting clogged up when the fire bell rings.
8 And one other thing that I'm just so
9 happy about is that, as you know, I had offered
10 to try to come up with some sort of an
11 option -- a reward fund or whatever
12 specifically ear-marked for someone that's
13 doing night hauling. And I was so happy when I
14 got my copy of the release that was sent out.
15 Operation Game Thief has now upped their ante
16 to $25,000, and that means to me that we're
17 serious about this and it also means that I
18 don't have to do a lot of work. So I'm real
19 happy about both those things. And thank you
20 very much.
21 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Thank you very
22 much. Oh, wait a second, we've got some
23 questions here.
24 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Mr. Johnston, I
25 wanted to -- there is no doubt that your
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60
1 organization and all the readers recognize the
2 seriousness of this issue. I mean, it's a no
3 brainer. And we appreciate your support. And
4 we also, at least -- and I think I can speak
5 for the Commission -- we encourage you to
6 advise the general public of the significance
7 of this issue. And --
8 MR. JOHNSTON: Well, as a matter of
9 fact, I didn't point that out. Our website,
10 ttha.com, they have a ranking system on the
11 Internet of what rank you are in terms of
12 visits. And our site fluctuates between about
13 17 and 30 something, in terms of popularity in
14 the hunting -- those that are searching the
15 Internet for hunting-related type things. And
16 we went ahead and added a link that flashes in
17 red on the home page of trophy hunters that
18 includes the entire press release that was sent
19 out about the $25,000 reward. And which -- I'd
20 like to add this, too, Buddy Turner had the
21 foresight to basically plant the seed or the
22 ideas of what and where to look for. In other
23 words, a person working in a truck stop,
24 wherever, you look for these type things. And
25 I mean, if it's going to work, I don't know
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1 much else we can do.
2 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Thank you very
3 much for your support.
4 MR. JOHNSTON: You bet.
5 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Are there any
6 further discussions on this very important
7 subject from the Commission? Joseph
8 Fitzsimons.
9 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: I would
10 move that we adopt the staff's recommendation
11 on Item 4, Madame Chair.
12 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: Second.
13 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: All in favor?
14 ("Aye.")
15 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Opposed? Hearing
16 none, motion carries. Thank you.
17 (Motion passes.)
18 "The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission adopts
19 31 TAC Sections 65.601 and 65.609-65.611,
20 concerning cervid diseases in the Scientific
21 Breeder Proclamation, with changes to the
22 proposed text as published in the March 1, 2002
23 issue of the Texas Register (27 TexReg 1463)."
24 AGENDA ITEM NO. 5: BRIEFING - STATUS OF CRAB
25 TRAP REMOVAL PROGRAM
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62
1 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Agenda item No. 5
2 is a briefing item, crab trap cleanup.
3 Mr. Osborne (sic), will you please make your
4 presentation.
5 (Whereupon a briefing was presented
6 to the Commission, the following proceedings
7 were heard:)
8 AGENDA ITEM NO. 6: ACTION - 2002-2003
9 STATEWIDE HUNTING AND FISHING PROCLAMATION
10 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Item Number 6 is
11 action item, statewide hunting and fishing
12 proclamation. We begin with Mr. Durocher, then
13 Hal, and then Dr. Graham. Will you please make
14 your presentations.
15 MR. DUROCHER: Madame Chairman,
16 members of the Commission, I'm Phil Durocher,
17 the director of the Inland Fisheries Divisions.
18 The proposals that I'm going to bring to you
19 today from Inland Fisheries are really the
20 culmination of a year-long process, where we --
21 our staff biologists make recommendations and
22 they go through an extensive scoping, both
23 internally and externally.
24 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Phil, I hate to do
25 this to you, but I'm going to anyway. We had
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63
1 some speakers that I failed to acknowledge from
2 the last item. If you'd just leave that up on
3 the screen, I think it'd be appropriate to go
4 ahead and get that done. And this was for
5 Agenda Item No. 5, the crab trap cleanup that
6 we just discussed. And I do apologize. We
7 have James Davenport, Wesley Blevins here to
8 speak. Are they here?
9 Mr. Davenport, I had a piece of
10 paper over your card. I apologize. Are there
11 any questions?
12 Now we go back to the regular order
13 of things, Mr. Durocher, the statewide hunting
14 and fishing proclamation.
15 MR. DUROCHER: Thank you, Madame
16 Chairman. For the record, again, I'm Phil
17 Durocher, the director of Inland Fisheries. As
18 I said earlier, these regulation proposals that
19 we bring to you today are the culmination of a
20 year-long process.
21 The public comments that you're
22 going to see here are primarily from our Web
23 survey that we conducted, taking comments on
24 these proposals.
25 The first proposal that we have this
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64
1 year is at Purtis Creek State Park in Henderson
2 County. We're asking to change the regulation
3 on sunfish from the seven-inch minimum and the
4 25-fish daily bag to a no minimum and no daily
5 bag. Our goal here is to simplify the
6 regulations. This was an experimental
7 regulation that we put in place on Purtis Creek
8 several years ago. And we really haven't
9 reached a goals that we set for that
10 regulation, so we're asking that this lake be
11 brought back to the statewide standard.
12 Comments on this regulation from the
13 Web survey, we had 74 people who indicated they
14 were for it and no one indicated they were
15 against it.
16 The second proposal is for Coleto
17 Creek reservoir in Goliad and Victoria County.
18 We're asking here to change the regulation on
19 red drum from the 20- to 28-inch reverse slot,
20 which is the regulation that's in place in
21 coastal waters, to a 20-inch minimum. Daily
22 bag limit would remain at three fish. This is
23 the regulation that's in place on all the
24 freshwater lakes that contain red drum. And
25 we're asking that this be placed on Coleto
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65
1 Creek also because it is a freshwater lake.
2 And the red drum will not spawn in here. The
3 only red drum in this lake are the ones that we
4 and coastal fisheries stock in this lake. And
5 our goal here, again, is to maximize the angler
6 potential for the recently stocked red drum.
7 The next -- let me go back. From
8 the Web survey, again, we had 61 people
9 indicated they were for this regulation and
10 four were against it. And those that were
11 against it primarily didn't understand that the
12 red drum would not be spawning in this
13 reservoir.
14 At Gibbons Creek Reservoir in Grimes
15 County, we're asking to change the limit on
16 large mouth bass from the current catch and
17 release to a 14- to 24-inch slot limit. Our
18 goal here is to allow some harvest, hopefully
19 boosting angler interest in this reservoir.
20 This regulation was asked -- we were asked to
21 implement this regulation by the Texas
22 Municipal Power Agency who owns this reservoir.
23 They're trying to increase interest on here,
24 and we agreed with them.
25 Again, from the survey, 70 people
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66
1 indicated they were for this regulation, and we
2 had nine that were against it. And these were
3 primarily from a bass club people who are
4 concerned about slot limits and higher minimums
5 and their impact on tournaments.
6 The next proposal is for Brushy
7 Creek Lake in Williamson County. This is a new
8 39-acre lake that will be opening sometime in
9 the next year. What we're proposing here is to
10 enact -- to open the reservoir and an 18-inch
11 minimum length limit for large mouth bass. Our
12 goal here is to protect the bass from
13 overharvest, from initial overharvest, which we
14 see on almost every reservoir that's open.
15 Again, from the Web survey, we had
16 60 people indicated they were for it and 10
17 people indicated they were against the
18 proposal. Again, most of those against were
19 from tournament people.
20 At Lake Alan Henry in Garza County,
21 we're asking to change the limit on large mouth
22 bass from an 18-inch minimum, the current
23 limit, to a no minimum five fish bag. Only
24 one -- only two fish can be less than 18
25 inches. This is a regulation that we
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67
1 implemented on O.H. Ivie several years ago.
2 It's something that we think will have the same
3 impact that we have with slot limits and it's
4 an experimental regulation. And so far what
5 we've done at Ivie's has worked.
6 Well, at Lake Alan Henry we have a
7 really good fish population, but we're getting
8 an overpopulation of small fish. And we need
9 to get some of these fish removed and hopefully
10 this regulation will get us there. Comments
11 from the Web survey, again, 54 for and 12
12 indicated they were against it.
13 At Lake Proctor in Comanche County,
14 we're asking to change the limit on large mouth
15 bass from 14-inch minimum to a 16-inch minimum.
16 This lake was -- we had real low water levels
17 for several years at Lake Proctor. Last
18 spring, we caught a lot of water and the lake
19 has filled up with young bass. And what we're
20 asking this regulation, hopefully, it will
21 protect those bass for at least another year
22 and maintain some kind of fishery there for a
23 longer period than we normally do. Again, from
24 the public comments from the Web survey, we had
25 59 for and 11 were against.
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68
1 The last two regulations are for
2 Possum Kingdom Reservoir in Palo Pinto County.
3 And these are related to our efforts to speed
4 up the recovery of this lake, which was hit
5 fairly hard with the golden algae two years
6 ago. The first regulation that we're -- the
7 first change that we're proposing is to change
8 the limit on large mouth bass from a 14-inch
9 minimum to a 16-inch minimum.
10 The lake is recovering. We've
11 had -- we have a tremendous year class of young
12 fish coming on, not a lot of adults in the
13 population. So we're asking that we protect
14 these fish at least for another year or year
15 and a half to allow us to build up the
16 population of adult fish. And we have told the
17 anglers in the area that once we get the
18 population built up to where it was before the
19 golden algae outbreak, that we will certainly
20 look at changing these regulations back to what
21 they were previously.
22 And from the public hearings, we had
23 three people that testified against this. And
24 these, again, were tournament people who were
25 concerned on what impact this regulation would
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69
1 have on tournaments. And from the Web survey,
2 we had 65 who spoke for it -- who indicated
3 they were for it and 17 against.
4 Also at Possum Kingdom, we're asking
5 to change the daily bag limit for striped bass
6 from five to two fish per day. The 18-inch
7 minimum length limit, which is in effect
8 statewide, will be retained. Our goal here,
9 again, is to assist the recovery of the
10 population of striped bass that was impacted by
11 the golden algae. The only striped bass in
12 this reservoir are what we stocked. There's no
13 reproduction here. And last year we were
14 unsuccessful in our stocking, so we don't have
15 a lot of fish available. And we think this
16 regulation will allow the population to recover
17 and also allow the guides on the lake who have
18 been working there for many years to continue
19 to fish even if it's at a lower level.
20 And those are our, the proposals
21 from Inland Fisheries for 2002. I'd be glad to
22 answer any questions.
23 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: Any questions
24 from the Commission at this time?
25 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: I'll move
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70
1 approval.
2 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: This will just
3 be part of it. We'll get the others. Thank
4 you, Phil. Hal, you're up next.
5 MR. OSBURN: I'm Hal Osborne,
6 Coastal Fisheries Division Director. I'll be
7 briefing you on the coastal fisheries portion
8 of the changes to the statewide hunting and
9 fishing proclamation.
10 Texas currently has a reciprocal
11 license agreement with Louisiana that allows
12 anglers to legally fish in common border waters
13 such as Toledo Bend Reservoir and Sabine Lake.
14 You can do that with either a Texas or a
15 Louisiana license. And I want to make it clear
16 that there are no proposals that would change
17 that long-standing agreement.
18 The only proposed rule change is to
19 clarify that all fish landed in Texas or
20 possessed on Texas waters must conform to Texas
21 size and bag limits. In fact, Louisiana also
22 has an identical regulation respective to their
23 state limits.
24 One of the concerns that has
25 developed with the reciprocal agreement,
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71
1 particularly in Sabine lake, is that it has
2 been interpreted to allow anglers to take in
3 the same day, both a Texas and a Louisiana
4 limit of fish. This can obviously lead to
5 excessive harvest and is certainly an equity
6 with all other Texas anglers who are restricted
7 to one Texas bag limit.
8 Our survey data indicate this is
9 currently not a high level of this double
10 tripping, but there is a definite upward trend,
11 particularly when we note that the fishing
12 pressure in Sabine Lake for both guides and
13 private boats has escalated to all time highs.
14 Staff believes the proposed rule
15 would benefit the State by reestablishing
16 equity among all Texas anglers and guides and
17 by improving the marine fish populations. In
18 addition, law enforcement would be enhanced,
19 anglers would be less confused about landing
20 limits, and Texas would be consistent with not
21 only Louisiana, but also Mississippi, Alabama,
22 and Florida, all of whom have similar landing
23 laws.
24 Our initial scoping of this issue
25 last year indicated strong support from folks
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72
1 that we interviewed at boat ramps as they
2 finished their fishing trips. Since then, we
3 have received petitions with numerous
4 signatures, both for and against. Public
5 hearings were held and produced a majority of
6 opposition comments. But other sources from
7 emails and telephone calls and letters were
8 mostly in favor.
9 Based on staff's findings of facts,
10 we recommend no changes to the proposed rule,
11 except for some minor wording changes in the
12 proclamation to clarify the original intent.
13 That concludes the coastal portion, if there's
14 any questions.
15 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Are there any
16 questions of Hal from the Commission?
17 COMMISSIONER RISING: Hal, do you
18 happen to know what percentage of anglers in
19 Sabine are actually from Texas or from
20 Louisiana?
21 MR. OSBURN: Yes. We get -- we
22 actually have an agreement with Louisiana that
23 allows us to survey anglers from Louisiana boat
24 ramps as well as the Texas boat ramps. So we
25 have surveyed from all users. And about 97
.
73
1 percent of the anglers in Sabine Lake are
2 actually Texas residents.
3 COMMISSIONER RISING: So this won't
4 effect -- Louisiana anglers, this will not
5 affect them in any way and Texas anglers who
6 want to launch in Louisiana will still be able
7 to, with a Louisiana license, be able to retain
8 a Louisiana limit. Is that right?
9 MR. OSBURN: That's correct.
10 Actually, Texas anglers who launch and land in
11 Louisiana ramp can retain a Louisiana limit
12 even if they only have a Texas license. So
13 that's the privilege that we have developed
14 between us and Louisiana for all the folks that
15 live around there, is you can fish with either
16 license. But we're just asking that if you
17 land in Louisiana, you -- they ask that you
18 land their limits. And when we're asking with
19 this proposal if you land in Texas, you land
20 the Texas limit.
21 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Commissioner
22 Angelo?
23 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: How could you,
24 for clarification, go through what the Texas
25 limit -- how the Texas limit differs from the
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74
1 Louisiana limit on the various fish?
2 MR. OSBURN: Yes, sir. I had a
3 slide yesterday. I'm sorry I didn't put it in
4 there. The red drum, we have a three-fish bag
5 limit and they have a five-fish bag limit. We
6 have a 20- to 28-inch minimum and maximum size.
7 They -- their size limits starts at 16, so they
8 would be harvesting smaller and more numerous
9 fish, red drum. Spotted sea trout is probably
10 the most well-known sought after. We have a
11 ten-fish bag limit, 15-inch minimum. Louisiana
12 has a 25-fish bag limit at 12-inch minimum.
13 Flounder is another area of concern. We have a
14 ten-fish bag and a 14-inch size limit.
15 Louisiana does have a ten-fish bag, but they
16 have no minimum size limit. So there is a
17 significant harvest of small flounder. They do
18 have -- we actually are more liberal on our
19 black drum, which is the last one I'll mention,
20 is they allow only up to a 27-inch black drum
21 to be landed. Ours goes to 30 inches. So if
22 you were to land in Louisiana ramp today with a
23 28-inch black drum that was legal in Texas, it
24 would be illegal in Louisiana. And that's an
25 ongoing policy from Louisiana game wardens.
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75
1 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: Thank you.
2 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Commissioner
3 Fitzsimons.
4 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Hal, what
5 impact does the no minimum on flounder have on
6 that resource?
7 MR. OSBURN: Flounder is one of the
8 species that we -- we don't think we've fully
9 turned the corner on yet in our coastal waters.
10 Certainly we've addressed it in the last half
11 decade with the commission action, where they
12 raised the minimum size, lowered the bag limit,
13 established the first ever commercial bag
14 limit.
15 We believe we also addressed it with
16 the shrimping rules for the requirement of a
17 buy-catch reduction device in some nursery
18 areas that will help that species. But we
19 still have a lot of significant harvest. We
20 are seeing fish being recruited into the
21 fishery faster, but they're not staying there
22 very long. Once they get up to that 14 inches.
23 Our concern with the no size limit
24 in Louisiana is that the flounder are not able
25 to spawn until they're close to that 14-inch
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76
1 size limit. And with the -- about 23 percent
2 of the flounder in Sabine Lake are actually
3 under 14 inches. So you're talking about
4 almost a quarter of the harvest of the fish
5 that have not had a chance to spawn yet.
6 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Thank you.
7 That answers my question.
8 COMMISSIONER RISING: I believe
9 yesterday we had talked about -- or I had seen
10 a chart as relates to other bays as far as our
11 small flounder. Would you expound upon that
12 just a bit, as far as how our flounder
13 populations compare to other bay systems in
14 Texas?
15 MR. OSBURN: Yes, sir. And I need
16 to point out, the great benefit of having a
17 long-standing monitoring program in all the bay
18 systems. We appreciate your support for that.
19 We're able to compare the flounder
20 length frequencies from Sabine Lake to all the
21 other bays. And it's the harvest of small
22 flounder under the 14-inch size limit is 200
23 percent higher in Sabine Lake than all the
24 other bays.
25 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: Madame Chairman?
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77
1 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Commissioner Avila.
2 COMMISSIONER AVILA: Hal, have we
3 ever tried collaborative efforts with -- I'm
4 sure we have, with Louisiana about raising, you
5 know, the size of their flounder bag limit?
6 MR. OSBURN: Yes, we have. We've
7 tried to establish -- well, we've had a number
8 of meetings, we've shared our data with them.
9 They have not seen the need to press it in
10 their legislature, which is really where the
11 rule change would have to come from, although
12 some significant constituent groups over there
13 have continued to lobby for Louisiana to match
14 at least our spotted sea trout limits. And
15 we're not going to give up on those efforts.
16 We've got a number of forms where we engage the
17 Louisiana managers, and we're hopeful that we
18 can convince them of the wisdom of that.
19 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: Okay.
20 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Thank you, Hal. We
21 have quite a few people signed up to speak on
22 this. Oh, we're going to -- I'm sorry. I'm
23 going to get this right eventually. Go ahead.
24 MR. GRAHAM: I'm Gary Graham,
25 director of the wildlife division, and I'm one
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78
1 of the ones that would like to speak on this
2 topic in depth about the proposals in the
3 wildlife division.
4 We have ten proposals this year,
5 seven of those deal with deer, two with turkey,
6 and one with the wildlife -- or with the
7 hunting license in general.
8 The first proposal is for an
9 experimental regulation that will sunset after
10 three years. With this proposal, we would
11 define what a legal buck is in order to address
12 the high harvest pressure and undesirable age
13 structure in these six counties in yellow.
14 This special regulation would not apply to
15 properties that have been issued level 2 or
16 level 3 managed-land deer permits.
17 In this proposal, a legal buck is a
18 deer that's defined as having a hardened antler
19 protruding through the skin and at least one
20 unbranched antler or an inside spread
21 measurement between the main beams of 13 inches
22 or greater, or six or more points on one
23 antler.
24 The majority of the public comment
25 on this proposal has been in favor of 684 in
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79
1 support, 166 in opposition. As I have
2 mentioned to you before, we've developed this
3 proposal with many of the sportsmen in these
4 six counties, some of whom are represented here
5 today and I anticipate will have some comments
6 at the end.
7 Should this -- should you choose to
8 pass this proposal, it would protect about 65
9 percent of the buck portion of the herd.
10 It is illegal to use dogs to hunt
11 anywhere in Texas, to hunt -- illegal to use
12 dogs to hunt deer anywhere in Texas.
13 Currently, however, up to two dogs can be used
14 to trail wounded deer in all parts of Texas
15 except for the far eastern counties where the
16 trailing use is prohibited. Because we are
17 confident that the trailing prohibition is no
18 longer needed in these 11 counties in yellow,
19 we propose that you allow the use of no more
20 than two dogs to trail wounded deer in
21 northeast Texas. 97 of the public comments
22 were supportive of this; 77 were against it.
23 When we revised the managed-land
24 deer permits a year ago, we created two
25 unintended and undesirable conditions on
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80
1 level 2 properties. We precluded the harvest,
2 with guns, of spike deer during the early
3 season and we precluded archers from being able
4 to harvest any buck during the early season,
5 which is archery only in surrounding
6 properties. Not being able to harvest spikes
7 when hunting does with guns is a problem
8 because some spikes are almost always
9 mistakenly harvested. And this proposal to
10 allow spikes to be taken in the early season
11 will correct that problem. 140 of the comments
12 were supportive; 33 were opposed.
13 Allowing bucks to be harvested by
14 archers on these same level 2 properties would
15 make those properties consistent with other
16 adjacent properties. And the comments here
17 were 148 in support; 20 in opposition. The
18 current regs for these counties in yellow allow
19 for the harvest of does for 16 days, starting
20 with the beginning of the general season. Doe
21 harvest in this region, however, remains fairly
22 conservative and we've determined that the
23 populations could sustain more harvest in all
24 of these counties except for Hall County in
25 red, which was added to this list by mistake.
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1 Consequently, we propose to extend
2 the number of doe days in the 16 counties by
3 establishing the season to run from opening day
4 through the Sunday following Thanksgiving. 135
5 people were in support of this and 32 were
6 opposed to it.
7 When we created the youth only
8 season last year, we incorrectly allowed
9 unrestricted anterless harvest during the late
10 youth only season in some counties where
11 anterless harvest had been and should continue
12 to be restricted by issuance of doe permits.
13 Deleting the phrase and -- let's see. Let me
14 read it up here. And no TPWD issued permits is
15 required would correct this oversight.
16 We would like to remove the
17 requirement that an unskinned head must be
18 retained for white-tailed deer. Note that a
19 skinned head would still be required.
20 Originally this reg was created to be
21 consistent with antelope regs, where it was
22 required to distinguish the sex -- sexes
23 between harvested animals. But because the
24 pelage differences don't exist for white-tailed
25 deer is part of the reason why we make this
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1 recommendation. 159 people were -- commented
2 in support of this and 29 were opposed to it.
3 The first of the turkey proposals is
4 to provide a fall season in Hill County, where
5 there is a spring season currently. 146
6 comments were supportive; only 10 were opposed
7 to it. And the second one is to provide a
8 spring season for eastern wild turkey in these
9 four counties in yellow, where the populations
10 are strong and we believe sufficient enough to
11 sustain hunting harvest. 139 comments came in
12 in favor of this and nine were opposed to it.
13 The last statewide proposal is one
14 from the law enforcement, and it would require
15 hunters to fill out a tag log on the back of
16 the hunting license, and the tag log pertains
17 to white-tailed deer only. This requirement is
18 designed to help wardens enforce bag limits for
19 deer and to simplify the language on the deer
20 tags that would be found on our new and
21 improved license. 156 comments were in support
22 of this and 51 were opposed to it.
23 Our collective recommended motion is
24 as follows: the Texas Parks and Wildlife
25 Commission adopts the 2002-2003 Statewide
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1 Hunting and Fishing Proclamation, with changes
2 to the proposal as published in the
3 February 22nd, 2002 issue of the Texas Register
4 and the rule review of 31 TAC Chapter 65,
5 located as Exhibit B, with changes to the
6 proposal pertaining to the season closures that
7 we presented yesterday and as published in the
8 February 22nd, 2002 issue of the Texas
9 Register.
10 That concludes my presentation.
11 I'll be glad to answer any of your questions.
12 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Are there any
13 questions from the Commission of Mr. Graham?
14 MR. GRAHAM: Thank you.
15 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Now, we will hear
16 from the people signed up to speak. We have
17 quite a few. I want to remind you that you
18 have three minutes. First we have -- the first
19 person signed up to speak on Item 6 is
20 Ellis Gilleland, followed by Kirby Brown.
21 Mr. Gilleland.
22 MR. GILLELAND: My name is Ellis
23 Gilleland, speaking for Texas Animal Rights
24 Organization on the Internet. I'm sorry. I
25 only have a one-page handout to give you. It
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1 is a publication which you may already be
2 familiar with. It's Parks and Wildlife State
3 Parks Division, Operating Instruction
4 Number 024, subject, wildlife feeding
5 limitation and guidelines, dated May 2001.
6 This is an 11-page document and I just gave you
7 the first page because I'm sure you're familiar
8 with it and you can reproduce it a lot cheaper
9 than I can. This outlaws the feeding of corn,
10 deer corn -- corn to deer in state parks.
11 Now, we're talking about statewide
12 hunting and some yahoo wants to feed corn to
13 deer. So what are you going to do? Are you
14 going to have two different rules, one applying
15 outside the state park and one inside the state
16 park? That's the question that you have to
17 resolve. You have outlawed feeding deer in
18 state parks corn. Now, I'm telling you that --
19 I'm asking you to make a rule to outlaw feeding
20 corn to deer hunters outside of state parks.
21 And you lawyers will appreciate the
22 ramifications of having a law whereby the
23 person can plead in court to the judge, and I
24 think it would be accepted that if it's --
25 you've got 99 signs at Choke Canyon State Park
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1 that tell you why you shouldn't feed corn to
2 deer, and suddenly you've got to tell the judge
3 why, when you step off the state park, oh, it's
4 all right to shoot deer under a corn feeder.
5 So I'm asking you to reconcile, just
6 like you've got to reconcile 180 bank accounts
7 and the cars and the checks and the credit
8 cards and all the other property and all the
9 boats and all the stuff that you've got to
10 reconcile, according to Mr. Bomer. Well, I'll
11 asking you to reconcile your own cotton-picking
12 laws. You've got a law that says, "No feeding
13 of corn in state parks." Now, I'm asking you,
14 pretty please, make a rule, a law, to outlaw
15 feeding of corn to deer outside of state parks.
16 Thank you.
17 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Thank you. Kirby
18 Brown and then Skip James.
19 MR. BROWN: Madame Chairman,
20 Commissioners, my name for the record is Kirby
21 Brown with the Texas Wildlife Association. We
22 fully support the staff's recommendations.
23 Thank you very much.
24 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Thank you, Kirby.
25 Skip James, and then -- oh, gosh, Albert
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1 Fumuso.
2 MR. JAMES: Hi, folks. My name is
3 Skip James. The last 11 years I've been on
4 Sabine Lake as a guide. We have a petition
5 with 1300 names total. 580 names were already
6 certified. Did you know that Sabine Lake is a
7 hundred square miles? It's huge. It's not
8 landlocked. It connects to the Gulf.
9 Migratory fish move in and out. Spotted sea
10 trout are migratory. They're asking you to
11 eliminate the practice of bringing in fish,
12 legally taking fish from Louisiana into Texas.
13 I guide on the lake. I take kids, families,
14 elderly people. If you vote yes, it simply
15 makes it hard for those folks. Fishing is hard
16 enough. Don't make it any harder on Sabine
17 Lake. It's huge. It's windblown. The fish
18 don't bite every day. We can't get out there
19 every day.
20 You're being told that recreational
21 anglers can impact population dynamics of
22 Cynoscion nebulosus. We just think that's just
23 out of the question. We think must be real
24 good if we can catch those fish down to
25 dangerously low levels.
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1 We have some possible solutions for
2 you to consider considering. We would ask that
3 you would assign a task force to study and make
4 recommendation. We would ask that you try to
5 work harder with the State of Louisiana in
6 reaching common limits, common limits, where
7 the lake had one limit for all species of fish.
8 We'd ask you to consider not making any changes
9 unless there was sufficient scientific data to
10 support this. If, in fact, the biologists are
11 most interested in spotted sea trout, then make
12 it make the changes trout specific.
13 MR. COOK: Mr. James, your time is
14 up, sir.
15 MR. JAMES: In conclusion, we just
16 ask that you think about the children. You're
17 making it hard for them. Thank you.
18 MR. COOK: Thank you, sir.
19 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Albert Fumuso,
20 followed by Walt Glasscock.
21 MR. FUMUSO: Madame Chairman,
22 Commissioners, my name is Albert Fumuso. I
23 live in Beaumont. Captain Skip James over here
24 is a good friend of mine and has been for
25 several years, along with several other people.
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1 I'm not a commercial fisherman, I'm not a
2 guide. I take my family and my grandkids. I
3 take a lot of other people that don't get to go
4 fishing like they used to to Sabine Lake. Like
5 Skip says, it is a big lake, it's not
6 landlocked. There's jetties that come migrate
7 in and out. My concern is it's not really too
8 much with the limits of trout, speckled trout,
9 redfish, whatever they may be, because I'm
10 going to take my friends, my son-in-laws, I'm
11 going to take them fishing anyway. And, again,
12 you don't catch them every day.
13 But the problem that I have -- and I
14 wish you could consider, is that if you put in
15 in Texas and you do fish Sabine Lake, you do
16 fish on the Louisiana side and you do have a
17 Louisiana license and you do come back and put
18 your boat back in Texas, why can't the Texas
19 game wardens check your fish? If you come into
20 Texas and the trout limit is ten and I've
21 got -- this man right here and myself, we've
22 got 45 and we pull up to the boat ramp and the
23 Texas game warden comes over and he says,
24 "How'd y'all do?" And I said, "Well, we caught
25 45 trout, but we caught them over here in
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1 Louisiana." He says, "Okay. Fine. Have a
2 nice day."
3 Why can't they check to see if we
4 have a fishing license in the state of
5 Louisiana? And if we don't, you need to cite
6 us. And that revenue would go back into Texas.
7 I don't -- what is the deal there? I mean,
8 right now basically all you've got to do is
9 say, "I got one." And, "Okay. Have a nice
10 day. See y'all later." What's the matter with
11 that? How hard is that? Why can't these folks
12 back here, these recruits back here, why can't
13 they have the right to check a boat of
14 fishermen -- they check them for license, life
15 jackets, registration. That's their job;
16 that's fine, they need to. Why can't they
17 check them for this other stuff? What's up
18 with that? Has anybody ever thought of that?
19 Has anybody ever discussed it? How hard is
20 that to do? You know, that would kill all
21 these people that don't have a Louisiana
22 license fishing in Lake Sabine that do come
23 back to the boat ramp and they do have a
24 Louisiana license -- I mean, they do have a
25 Louisiana limit, but they don't have a
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1 Louisiana license. "Yes, sir. Have a nice
2 day." Well, you burn them a couple of times, I
3 guarantee you, they will either quit fishing on
4 that Louisiana side over there or they're going
5 to go down here to Wal-Mart or they're going to
6 go somewhere and they're going to buy a
7 Louisiana license. Don't they have restitution
8 fees and that kind of stuff? I'm not that deep
9 into that, but --
10 And another thing, too, as far as
11 the alcohol, as far as driving the boat,
12 whether it's me or whoever it may be going up
13 and down the river, we come back in to the boat
14 ramp over here and the wardens are out there
15 checking, "Well, let's give these guys a
16 breathalyzer test. Okay. Fine. Hey, wait a
17 minute. We're from Louisiana." Well, if they
18 can give me a breathalyzer test and my alcohol
19 content level is way above what it should be --
20 MR. COOK: Mr. Fumuso, your time is
21 up, sir.
22 MR. FUMUSO: All right. If they
23 could run me in for that, why not the other?
24 Thank you very much.
25 MR. GLASSCOCK: Madame Chairman,
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1 Commissioners, thank you so much for this
2 opportunity. I'm Walt Glasscock, president of
3 the Texas Sportsmen Association, which is
4 located -- headquartered in the Southern Post
5 Oak region.
6 For 30 years, we've had significant
7 problems with the declining deer herd. And
8 with the proposed legislation on antler
9 restrictions, our organization, its annual
10 meeting this last March 3rd, passed this
11 resolution.
12 For the past 12 years, the Texas
13 Sportsmen Association has worked toward the
14 enhancement of our declining deer herd. And
15 whereas the membership of the Texas Sportsmen
16 Association is aware that many man hours were
17 provided by the Texas Parks and Wildlife staff
18 to bring forward meaningful buck harvest
19 regulations in this past year, specifically for
20 the experimental six-county region; and,
21 whereas the proposed harvest regulations are
22 acceptable to the TSA organization and to date
23 are receiving overwhelming support. Therefore,
24 be it resolved that the Texas Sportsmen
25 Association wishes to extend our sincere thanks
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1 and appreciation to all the Texas Parks and
2 Wildlife staff and Commissioners who helped in
3 this pending proposal. And three cheers for
4 turkey hunting in the four counties adjoining
5 us.
6 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Roy Callais, is
7 that right? And Larry Whigham.
8 MR. CALLAIS: Madame Chairman,
9 Board, Roy Callais, Port Arthur, Texas, sports
10 fisherman. I'm not a public speaker, so bear
11 with me. It's not my cup of tea. I'm going to
12 try to make a point, and I hope it comes
13 across. Down in that area, your Sabine ship
14 channel, your lake, you have Louisiana on one
15 side, Texas on the other. You have shrimpers
16 go out, Texas season is closed, they go
17 shrimping in Louisiana. They bring their catch
18 back to Texas, sell it on Texas docks. Big
19 lake, Calcasieu, whatever, they open up. Texas
20 shrimpers go over there, bring their shrimp
21 back to Texas docks, sell their catch.
22 Crabbers down there -- I think Texas has a 200
23 trap limit that they can have per license.
24 Louisiana license you can have all the traps
25 you want. Texas crabbers go into Louisiana,
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1 catch crabs, bring them back to Texas docks.
2 Nobody cares. At least, I haven't heard that
3 they do. But now that I want to bring a
4 speckled trout or 12 speckled trout or 11 or
5 25, as a matter of fact, anybody that brings 35
6 ought to be taken -- ought to be dealt with.
7 But if I go to Louisiana, buy a Louisiana
8 license, and want to bring these trout back to
9 my dock or my boat ramp, I feel like I'm being
10 discriminated against, when all these other
11 people are allowed to do this. Whether this is
12 an infringement, I don't know. Y'all know the
13 laws, I'm just -- I'm up here pleading my case.
14 When I buy that license, I'm in
15 agreement with Louisiana, I would expect -- or
16 want Texas to honor it. I would like to see
17 Texas and Louisiana get at the bargaining
18 table, whatever it takes to get a mutual
19 agreement on this. It shouldn't have to come
20 to this. It should be done there. And that,
21 to me, would be in the best interest of
22 everybody. Common limits, you know, something
23 of that nature.
24 As far as the -- bringing 25
25 shrimp -- fish or 12 fish or whatever it is,
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1 the fisheries down there are doing well.
2 Jeremy Brais (sic) I've talked with him, he
3 shows me the charts. Even with the reciprocal
4 agreement the way it is and the law allowing us
5 to bring these fish back, the fishery is doing
6 well, it's healthy, Sabine Lake has never been
7 stocked with speckled trout. It's
8 overwhelmingly good. The charts show the fish
9 are getting bigger, they're getting more of
10 them every year, that there's no problem. I
11 mean, we're trying to fix a problem or
12 whatever, control something that's not there.
13 That's -- it's -- in my opinion, that is.
14 We had a meeting down there with
15 Texas Parks and Wildlife not long back. And
16 the response of the area -- the resident people
17 there of Sabine Lake was overwhelmingly against
18 this change in rules and laws or whatever y'all
19 decide to call it. I'm not a public speaker.
20 I'm about to wet all over myself right now.
21 But anyway --
22 MR. COOK: Sir?
23 MR. CALLAIS: Anyway, we was over --
24 MR. COOK: Sir?
25 MR. CALLAIS: They were
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1 overwhelmingly against --
2 MR. COOK: Sir, your time is up.
3 MR. CALLAIS: I'm asking the board
4 to leave it like it is or get back with them
5 coconuts next door.
6 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Larry Whigham, and
7 then Jerry Norris.
8 MR. WHIGHAM: Madame Chairman,
9 members of the Commission, my name is Larry
10 Whigham. I'm here today representing the Texas
11 Organization of Wildlife Management
12 Associations, commonly referred to as TOMA. We
13 are an organization that binds together over 60
14 separate wildlife management associations,
15 consisting of over 400 -- excuse me, over 4,000
16 members who own or manage 1.7 million acres of
17 land in Texas.
18 The members of TOMA overwhelmingly
19 support the experimental white-tailed deer
20 antler restriction regulation for Austin,
21 Colorado, Fayette, Lavaca, Lee, and Washington
22 Counties. These six counties have 30 wildlife
23 management associations with a membership of
24 2528 landowners who control more than 526,000
25 acres. All of these associations are members
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1 of TOMA. We who manage our land for wildlife
2 are acutely aware of the deleterious effects of
3 extreme land fragmentation has on our
4 white-tailed deer population. And we are
5 working hard to collectively manage our
6 properties to overcome these effects, but we
7 could use your help.
8 We feel your Oak Prairie district
9 leader, Mr. Bob Carroll, has done an
10 outstanding job of analyzing available data to
11 determine the best way to restore the
12 biological functionality of our deer herd. I
13 have observed the proposed regulation with
14 stand scrutiny of many reasonable and
15 open-minded wildlife experts. Further, it
16 responds to those landowners who have requested
17 regulatory help during the past ten or so
18 years. The first time Mr. Carroll revealed his
19 proposed regulation in a TOMA meeting, it came
20 within one vote of unanimous support. Let me
21 add that TOMA members realize that Texas Parks
22 and Wildlife cannot unilaterally fix our deer
23 herd. We must and will continue our efforts to
24 increase deer habitat both in quantity and
25 quality.
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1 Last, Madame Chairman, I want to
2 take this opportunity to thank Parks and
3 Wildlife for its outstanding support of all
4 wildlife management associations and their
5 members. Your field biologists are fantastic
6 facilitators of our organizations providing
7 expert technical leadership and advice. In
8 addition, they frequently work long hours,
9 including evenings and weekends, meeting with
10 members and landowners to develop wildlife
11 management strategies for their individual
12 properties. This willing collaboration with
13 landowners multiplies your effectiveness many
14 times toward achieving our common goals. In
15 this instance, the word "co-op" takes on an
16 entirely different meaning. Thank you very
17 much.
18 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Thank you. We have
19 Jerry Norris and Greg Schomburg.
20 MR. NORRIS: Madame Chairman and
21 members of the Commission, my name is Jerry
22 Norris from Port Arthur, Texas. I'm speaking
23 in favor of the proposal for Sabine Lake. When
24 I appeared before the Commission at the public
25 hearing in August 2000, concerned sportsmen on
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1 our common boundary waters of Sabine Lake
2 requested that the Texas Parks and Wildlife
3 receive petitions that in context mirror a
4 proposal the Parks and Wildlife officials now
5 endorse. Since then, the Commission has
6 directed the fisheries personnel to gather
7 dock-side surveys concerning the bag limits
8 landed on Texas docks that surround Sabine
9 Lake.
10 As you are aware, 78 percent of the
11 fishermen surveyed were in favor of involving
12 Texas size and bag limits to be landed in
13 Texas. This represents fishermen that are
14 concerned about Sabine Lake's fishery.
15 Texas continues to be the leader in
16 coastal fisheries management. For example,
17 Texas pulled the gill nets out of the bays with
18 the tireless effort of conservation-minded men
19 and women with a vision for the future who took
20 a stand during a time Texas bay systems were in
21 the early stages of overfishing. These men and
22 women from the Texas Parks and Wildlife and the
23 Coastal Conservation Association saw a future
24 that was very bleak for coastal resources and
25 decided to pursue changes that have now
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99
1 catapulted Texas coastal fishing into a
2 thriving recreational and economic success.
3 To prove my point, Louisiana,
4 Mississippi, Alabama, and Florida have
5 implemented similar conservation-minded
6 regulations. The point I'd like to make here
7 is that we are setting the standard for the
8 entire Gulf. And by adopting these regulations
9 on Sabine Lake, we set the example for
10 Louisiana. These states have realized the
11 economic benefits of strong coastal fisheries.
12 As a fishing guide on Sabine Lake for the last
13 18 years, I have experienced firsthand the
14 benefits of decisive conservation measures.
15 The fishing guides on Sabine Lake will not
16 suffer and the recreational fishermen will not
17 suffer. This proposal for Sabine Lake will be
18 another step in the direction of maintaining a
19 positive, forward-looking fisheries management
20 profile, which is a representation of
21 commitment to the wildlife and economic welfare
22 of Texas.
23 New regulations that promote
24 conservation are not always popular. Although
25 benefits are often seen in a very short time
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1 after implementation of the new regulations.
2 This Commission has the opportunity to continue
3 a legacy for the true sportsmen of Texas. A
4 legacy that will be shared and appreciated by
5 others. Thank you.
6 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Thank you. Greg
7 Schomburg.
8 MR. SCHOMBURG: Madame Chairman,
9 members of the Commission, my name is Greg
10 Schomburg. I'm past chairman of the Washington
11 County Wildlife Society, which I am here
12 representing today. The society consists of
13 seven wildlife co-ops covering the entire
14 county with membership of more than 400
15 landowners, representing over 40,000 acres.
16 Our organization vigorously supports
17 the proposed white-tailed deer restriction
18 regulation as published in the February 22nd
19 Texas Register. We feel your district leader
20 Bob Carroll has done an outstanding job of
21 analyzing deer harvest and other data to come
22 up with a solid biologically-based regulation.
23 He has presented his rationale for the
24 regulation on three separate occasions of the
25 society and other public meetings in Washington
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1 County. The overwhelming landowners support
2 this regulation.
3 Washington County unfortunately
4 suffers from effect of severe land
5 fragmentation. According to our tax appraisal,
6 rural landowners in Washington County average
7 only about 40 acres. The fragmentation,
8 though, the years has resulted in significant
9 loss to wildlife habitat. Our society members
10 are working hard to restore the habitat and
11 implement other management practices relating
12 to white-tailed deer. Since this data indicate
13 that we are having some success, but to
14 ultimately achieve our goal of restoring health
15 of the meager deer herd, we need the help
16 afforded by this regulation. Let me assure you
17 that implementation of this regulation will in
18 no way diminish our efforts.
19 I want to thank Bob Carroll and our
20 county biologist, Robert Lehmann, both who
21 enthusiastically support the efforts of our
22 organization. Further, we appreciate Texas
23 Parks and Wildlife's commitment to wildlife
24 management associations throughout the state.
25 Thank you very much.
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1 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Thank you. That is
2 it for the speakers. But I want to -- I want
3 to be sure that we get all the questions that
4 we have answered. And I think I'm going a
5 little bit differently than we usually do. But
6 in the interest of a full hearing, I would like
7 the Commission to respond to the two issues
8 that seem to be the most sensitive here: one,
9 the hunting -- the antler restrictions in those
10 counties; and the Sabine Lake issues, so that
11 we can ask questions of some of the speakers
12 that were up here, should we have any.
13 Let's deal with the Sabine Lake
14 issues first. Does the Commission have any
15 questions or comments regarding the issues
16 surrounding Sabine Lake? Commissioner Rising.
17 COMMISSIONER RISING: Hal, I had a
18 question. I know there's been some discussion
19 about trying to coordinate our efforts with
20 Louisiana legislators. And before we would
21 even talk about anything like that, I think
22 it's important to at least look at what
23 direction we want our fishery to head. And I
24 was wanting to know if you had any information
25 about the relative size distributions of
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1 speckled trout in Louisiana as they compare to
2 Texas. Do they have an overall smaller fish
3 size compared to what we have in Texas bays?
4 MR. OSBURN: Actually, Louisiana
5 does not have the comprehensive adult fish
6 surveys or juvenile fish surveys, for that
7 matter, that we have. So I'm not aware of a
8 comparable dataset. But from the -- we do have
9 some information from their harvest surveys,
10 what the recreational fishermen bring in. And
11 that's where I -- we're able to document that
12 the fish that they bring in with the 12-inch
13 size limit is probably about half as large in
14 weight as the average Texas fish brought in.
15 COMMISSIONER RISING: So I guess the
16 big point is, we have to look and see where we
17 want -- if we want to mirror Louisiana before
18 we want talk about making any changes.
19 MR. OSBURN: Correct. The fishing
20 in -- when we don't have a commercial fishery
21 involved, you have more latitude to deal with
22 the social and the economic issues surrounding
23 the fish. How do you want, as a society, to
24 bring those fish out of the water? And
25 obviously, we're looking with our spotted sea
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1 trout work group, at establishing some goals
2 for and objectives for our trout fishery. But
3 certainly the trend to date is that we want
4 more quality fish, not necessarily more smaller
5 fish.
6 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Commissioner Angelo
7 has a question.
8 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: Hal, we've
9 gotten a lot, of, I guess, somewhat
10 contradictory statements regarding the benefits
11 or lack of benefits of being able to restrict
12 the size and so on and the numbers of the fish
13 being caught. What benefits do you really see
14 that we're going to be able to obtain if these
15 restrictions are put in? Considering the size
16 of the lake, as the gentleman mentioned, and
17 the fact that it is connected to the bay and so
18 on, how do you respond to that?
19 MR. OSBURN: Well, I would respond
20 to that that everything is relative. Sabine
21 Lake, though, is our smallest bay system. And
22 all of our other bay systems also connect to
23 the gulf. Fish, particularly spotted sea
24 trout, yes, are migratory, but they do not have
25 great ranges to where we would lose them out of
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105
1 a system or expect to lose them out of a
2 system. They will stay from -- based on our
3 tagging data, they will stay in their bay --
4 their home bay system if the weather conditions
5 and food availability is right.
6 So I would have to respectfully
7 disagree that -- with the gentleman that said
8 that anglers cannot affect trout populations
9 with fishing mortality. We have examples
10 throughout the country of that very thing
11 happening, and that's why we have size and bag
12 limits to begin with. We are getting to be
13 very efficient, as anglers. Trout stay in
14 schools in particular. These guides, they're
15 great; they're great fishermen. And we want to
16 support that industry by making sure that there
17 are fish for the customers to want to come
18 down. So I would say that -- that we do have a
19 quality concern about the fish and a quantity
20 concern on the horizon.
21 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: Hal, one of the
22 things that some of the people are opposed to
23 this are saying is that when you say quality
24 fish, that we're actually going to -- looking
25 for size trophies, in other words, something
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1 similar to maybe what we've tried to develop in
2 the bass fishing, where I think everyone seems
3 to be in favor of it.
4 But if people are concerned about
5 the idea that we're looking for trophies,
6 what -- how do you respond to that in the sense
7 that that also would -- what impact that also
8 has to the overall fishery to restrict the
9 sizes?
10 MR. OSBURN: Well, and as you're
11 aware, this proposal is only to establish the
12 15-inch -- 15-inch ten-fish bag on trout.
13 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: Trophy?
14 MR. OSBURN: Right. There's no
15 changes to size and bag limits. We are talking
16 about that for trout. I will tell you, we're
17 trying to get away from using the word "trophy"
18 because we -- it does connote that big one that
19 you hang on the wall. That's not what we're
20 talking about. That's not what the anglers
21 that have come to us to talk about the spotted
22 sea trout are in -- in this for. They want to
23 just see the size move up a little bit to a
24 quality sized fish.
25 It is different than bass
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1 management. Phil and I have talked about this.
2 There's -- there is room for trophy fish in a
3 fishery and there's room for the average size
4 fish. But when the average size fish is below
5 a satisfactory level, I think, is where we have
6 valid need to make sure we're fulfilling
7 society's request on that. But this particular
8 rule is maintaining a 15-inch size limit in
9 Sabine Lake at this point. And it is still not
10 that large a fish. It's only a three-year-old
11 fish, actually a two- to three-year-old fish
12 that lives for nine years. I'm not sure I
13 answered your question, but...
14 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: Well, I think
15 you answered it exactly because what you're
16 looking for is quality, not trophy. And that's
17 the key point.
18 MR. OSBURN: Yes, sir.
19 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: I didn't word
20 the question real well. I think that's the
21 answer I was looking for.
22 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Commissioner
23 Rising.
24 COMMISSIONER RISING: Hal, in your
25 opinion, do you feel that this proposal, if we
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1 agree to it, will improve the overall flounder
2 fishery in Sabine Lake? Because that's been
3 something I've seen looking at that you
4 proposed.
5 MR. OSBURN: All things being equal,
6 I don't think there's any doubt it will improve
7 the fishery. We have seen, when we went from a
8 12-inch size limit on flounder up to 14 inches
9 in the last three or four years, already an
10 improvement coast wide in our bag same catches
11 of small flounder. And for Sabine Lake, which
12 is now folks are able to harvest that 12-inch
13 size limit to basically come on board with the
14 rest of the coast in letting the fish spawn
15 until it's at least 14 inches, they should see
16 the same benefits that we've documented for the
17 rest of the coast.
18 COMMISSIONER RISING: Well, I know
19 most of the discussion has been focused on
20 speckled trout, but I think it's important to
21 consider the other species that are going to be
22 affected by this, and I think that's one of the
23 areas that I've seen, just looking at what
24 you've presented to us. So thank you.
25 MR. OSBURN: Thank you.
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1 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Commissioner
2 Watson.
3 COMMISSIONER WATSON: Madame
4 Chairman, I'd just like to make a couple of
5 observations. I mean, the comment was made
6 that we ought to defer this to have a, you
7 know, comprehensive, you know, study made. And
8 I feel like to what Hal has said, I think we
9 should have, you know, a high level of comfort
10 that the study has already been made. And I
11 think that we have sufficient evidence to move
12 forward.
13 You know, also, the comment was made
14 about this is going to affect children. You
15 know, I really disagree with that because I
16 don't believe that a child's experience is
17 measured necessarily by the number of fish he
18 takes, but the quality of the outing he has.
19 And also, I think that if we do have
20 these rules in place, that we will send a
21 message to the children that -- you know, the
22 next generation of fishermen that conservation
23 is important and we do have rules and we are
24 going to protect this resource. And, you know,
25 I wholeheartedly support the staff's
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1 recommendation.
2 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Any other comments?
3 Commissioner Fitzsimons.
4 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: I thought
5 we were on -- are we on the deer?
6 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Not just yet, Hal.
7 MR. OSBURN: He's ready for deer.
8 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Oh, okay. Thank
9 you, Hal. All right. Now we'll tackle the
10 deer issue. Gary Graham? Does the commission
11 have any questions of Mr. Graham? Yes, I see
12 Joseph Fitzsimons.
13 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: I just
14 have a comment regarding the experimental
15 antler reg. I don't know if this is historic
16 or not, to change a commissioner's mind. But I
17 was very skeptical of this reg. And I want to
18 thank Bob Carroll -- he's not here. He
19 literally broke a leg getting this done, I
20 guess. And I was not -- I was skeptical
21 because I really do shy away from
22 micromanagement of the resource, especially we
23 try and follow the philosophy of giving people
24 the tools they need to be great
25 conservationists.
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1 The -- as I say, I was -- they
2 changed my mind and they did it through
3 perseverance and through hard work and
4 impressing me with an absolute dedication to
5 the resource, that -- the sportsmen club,
6 Mr. Glasscock and the TOMA, I'm just -- I have
7 to tell you, my hat's off to you.
8 And today, I think credit should be
9 given to those that worked on the solution
10 rather than the critics, and I was one of them.
11 Thank you for your work.
12 MR. GRAHAM: Thank you,
13 Commissioner. I think it also illustrates that
14 the power of research and good data. This is
15 the most data-rich proposal I've had the
16 privilege of addressing. And it always makes
17 it -- makes me have a lot more confidence when
18 I have an adequate database to make these types
19 of decisions. So I appreciate, too, the work
20 of the staff.
21 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Thank you, Gary.
22 Are there any -- whoopsie daisy, Gary.
23 Commissioner Ramos has a question.
24 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Well, I think
25 you need to be recognized because that's --
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1 we're really in the cutting edge. I don't know
2 if any other state is doing what we're doing,
3 and you and your staff need to be commended for
4 that. But more importantly, and in line with
5 that, we need to educate the public in being
6 able to recognize the type of deer that are
7 legal or illegal. And I'm very confident that
8 you've already looked at that and will have
9 programs where the general public can be
10 educated. Because I can see where an
11 uneducated person might not be able to judge
12 the deer properly. But I think that's
13 intrinsic with this new proposal. Thank you.
14 MR. GRAHAM: Very good comment. And
15 the staff, both in wildlife and law
16 enforcement, will approach that responsibility
17 just as enthusiastically as they have with
18 gathering the data that's needed to make this
19 decision. Education is very important. Thank
20 you.
21 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Thank you.
22 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Are there any more
23 questions from the Commission?
24 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: Move approval of
25 the recommendation.
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1 COMMISSIONER WATSON: Second.
2 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: I have a motion by
3 Commissioner Angelo, a second by Commissioner
4 Watson. All in favor say aye.
5 ("Aye.")
6 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Any opposed?
7 Hearing none, motion carries.
8 (Motion passes.)
9 "The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission adopts
10 the 2002-2003 Statewide Hunting and Fishing
11 Proclamation (located at Exhibit A), with
12 changes to the proposal in the February 22,
13 2002, issue of the Texas Register (27 TexReg
14 1266)."
15 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Before moving on to
16 Item No. 7, I want to recognize the class of
17 game warden cadets at the back of the room. We
18 have 38 cadets initiated the class on March the
19 1st, and they will be graduating in August.
20 Welcome aboard. We're glad to have you here.
21 (Applause.)
22 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: Madame
23 Chairman, I wonder if Mr. Stinebaugh could send
24 us the results of the exam they're given on
25 these new regulations we just passed after it's
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1 over. My expectations of this group.
2 AGENDA ITEM NO. 7: ACTION - STATEWIDE OYSTER
3 FISHERY PROCLAMATION/RULE REVIEW
4 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Agenda Item No. 7
5 is an action item, Statewide Oyster Fishery
6 Proclamation/Rule Review. Mr. Riechers, will
7 you please make your presentation.
8 MR. RIECHERS: Madame Chairman,
9 Commissioners, my name is Robin Riechers. I am
10 the management director of coastal fisheries
11 division. The item before you today is the
12 mandated rules of Chapter 58, Subchapter A of
13 the Oyster Fishery Proclamation. This review
14 is required by Government Code, Section
15 2001.039, which requires an agency to complete
16 a review every four years of each proclamation.
17 The notice of review was published in the Texas
18 Register on February 22nd, 2002.
19 As you remember at your January
20 meeting, given -- you recently made changes to
21 this chapter regarding oyster leases. In
22 addition to that, we also made some
23 clarifications of existing language at that
24 time, just some cleanup items. With those
25 changes just most recently being made, as well
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1 as the continued existence of the oyster
2 fishery in both the lease program and the
3 public oyster reef fishery, we certainly see
4 the need for this chapter to continue to exist.
5 And we would recommend at this time that you
6 consider readoption of Chapter 58, Subchapter
7 A, without any changes.
8 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Thank you,
9 Mr. Riecher. Is there any discussion from the
10 Commission? There's no one signed up to speak,
11 so could I have a motion on this item?
12 COMMISSIONER AVILA: Move approval.
13 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Do we have a
14 second?
15 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Second.
16 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: I have a motion by
17 Commissioner Avila, a second by Commissioner
18 Ramos. All in favor please say aye.
19 ("Aye.")
20 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Any opposed?
21 Hearing none, motion carries.
22 (Motion passes.)
23 "The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission
24 readopts all sections within 31 TAC Chapter 58
25 Subchapter A."
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1 AGENDA ITEM NO. 8: ACTION - LICENSE FEES FOR
2 COMMERCIAL FISHERIES
3 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Item No. 8 is an
4 action item, License Fees for Commercial
5 Fisheries. Ms. Whittenton, will you please
6 make your presentation.
7 MS. WHITTENTON: Thank you, Madame
8 Chairman, Commissioners. My name is Suzy
9 Whittenton, chief financial officer. This item
10 was proposed at the January commission meeting
11 and is up for adoption today. The proposal
12 originated from a state auditor's office report
13 published in December 2000 that determined that
14 Parks and Wildlife did not receive enough
15 revenue in the commercial fishery programs to
16 recoup the cost of program management. That
17 report became the basis for a legislative
18 appropriations rider last session. This rider
19 states that it is the intent of the Legislature
20 that Parks and Wildlife adjust rates charged
21 for licenses in each commercial fishery program
22 accordingly to provide funds necessary to
23 recoup costs associated with the management of
24 the program. And in making the fee
25 determination, the department should consider
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1 the commercial value of the license and the
2 amount needed to recoup department costs.
3 In order to reach complete cost
4 recovery, as the state auditor's report
5 suggested, we would have to increase fees by
6 over a hundred percent, and that would be in
7 addition to fee increases that we made last
8 year.
9 The staff has been concerned about
10 the socioeconomic disruptions to the coastal
11 communities from large fee increases. So as a
12 first step toward balancing the interest of the
13 State and the industries, a 20 percent fee
14 increase was recommended. This action is
15 expected to generate approximately $663,000.
16 The proposal was published in the
17 March 1st issue of the Texas Register and
18 public hearings were held across the state. We
19 also took in public comment through our
20 website. Here is a summary of our public -- of
21 the public comment received. 62 in favor.
22 These are not -- in most cases -- or in all
23 vases were not people from the industry. 24
24 against and 44 with no opinion.
25 The staff would suggest a -- an
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1 amendment to the rules associated with
2 transfers of licenses to heirs upon the death
3 of the original licensee. The current rules
4 require that the full license fee be paid by
5 the heir even though the original licensee has
6 already paid that fee. So we're proposing to
7 clarify the rules to allow us to charge just a
8 $10 transfer fee in those cases.
9 And the staff recommendation is for
10 the following, a motion to be adopted. The
11 Texas Parks and Wildlife Department adopts
12 amendments to 31 TAC Chapter 53.7 concerning
13 commercial fishing licenses -- licenses and
14 tags and in 31 TAC Chapter 53.7 concerning
15 business licenses and permits, with changes to
16 text as published in the March 1st, 2002 issue
17 of the Texas Register.
18 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: Does the
19 Commission have any questions for Suzy? Being
20 none, we have a number of folks in the audience
21 that would like to comment. And we'll start
22 with Richard Moore, and Ronald Hornbeck will be
23 next.
24 MR. MOORE: Thank you,
25 Commissioners, for this time. After looking
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1 over the Bomer report, there was a lot of
2 questions that were -- arose rather than
3 answered. I would wish that this Commission
4 could look -- take a time out and look at
5 the -- to review everything that was found in
6 that report.
7 Last year, we had a pretty
8 significant increase in our license. We're
9 going to have another 20 percent increase in
10 our license. Each individual license is not
11 that great. But some of these people have to
12 buy eight licenses, and that gets significant.
13 We're already on a depressed market right now.
14 And it's just a real hard time.
15 So I'm going to ask you if you would
16 consider tabling this until the industry, with
17 Parks and Wildlife, can go to the
18 Appropriations Committee and say, "Let's wait
19 until all the facts are in." This report has
20 opened up a lot of questions to what has been
21 going on with Parks and Wildlife and how they
22 spent their money. And I'd like to see this
23 cleared up before we go ahead and increase this
24 fee.
25 The only license increases are on
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1 commercial fisheries. There's a lot of other
2 people involved with Parks and Wildlife. You
3 know, but we are the only ones that's having an
4 increase in fees, and I don't think this is
5 quite right. So I'm asking if you would just
6 consider tabling this until we have a time to
7 get more information, until everything else is
8 more clear.
9 Like I said, at this time, the
10 domestic fishery is in hard times because of
11 the imports. The freezers are full, we don't
12 really have a market for a product right now.
13 And the market is so depressed. This is not a
14 good time to be hitting these people with
15 another raise. That would be a 78 percent
16 increase in our license in the last two
17 licensing periods. That's pretty significant.
18 And I don't believe $600,000 that you're going
19 to get it from these commercial fishermen is
20 going to solve all your financial problems. So
21 I'd like for you to just think about it and see
22 if the -- with the industry and Parks and
23 Wildlife, go back to the Appropriations
24 Committee when everything has come to light on
25 this report.
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1 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: Mr. Moore, I
2 appreciate your comments. And I think the
3 Commission, obviously, and the staff share your
4 and the industry's concern about the current
5 profitability. But we are mandated by the
6 Legislature to make the fee increases. And, in
7 fact, the mandate was actually to make a
8 significantly larger increase, which would have
9 been the amount necessary to recover the cost
10 associated with regulating and supervising the
11 industry.
12 So the Commission is doing the
13 minimum, really, that we feel we're required to
14 do. Certainly I don't think there would be any
15 problem in going back to the Legislature. I
16 think it's something that you-all certainly
17 ought to pursue.
18 MR. MOORE: The legislation mandated
19 that you would raise commercial fishing
20 license. Correct?
21 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: That is correct.
22 MR. MOORE: That's what I
23 understood.
24 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: That is correct.
25 MR. MOORE: Commercial fishing
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1 license is one thing.
2 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: Commercial
3 licenses, I believe. It wasn't -- I don't
4 know --
5 MR. MOORE: Well, in the report it
6 said "commercial fishing licenses and oyster
7 leaseholders."
8 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: Right.
9 MR. MOORE: Okay. Fishing license
10 is one thing, business license is another. And
11 you've expanded on more, and I hadn't seen --
12 and I apologize, I have not seen the
13 appropriation's wording. But in his report, it
14 said, "commercial fishing license and oyster
15 lease fees." You've expanded this to take in
16 business license. Commercial fishing license,
17 if -- you buy a license for your boat to fish,
18 and then you buy a captain's license for
19 yourself. This is one thing. But then you get
20 into all the other business license that you
21 have to have. And I didn't see in the report
22 where it mentioned that.
23 Like I said, some of these fees are
24 very significant. These are going to go up as
25 much as $800 on some people. That's not a
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1 little fee. A boat license is one thing.
2 You're talking about 40 something dollars.
3 That's not going to make or break anybody. But
4 on the same token, that $600,000 that that's
5 going to generate is not going to solve your
6 problems. But you said mandated by the
7 Appropriations Committee, the LBB or whatever
8 it's called?
9 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: The Legislature.
10 MR. MOORE: But did they have all
11 the information? Did they have the correct
12 information? And this is all I'm asking for.
13 It's time that they get the right information.
14 And if they feel the same way, we'll move
15 forward on it. I'm asking for your help, with
16 the staff and with the industry, to go back to
17 the Appropriations Committee and says, "Let's
18 rethink this," when all the information that is
19 available. That's what I'm asking for.
20 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Thank you. Are
21 there any further questions of Mr. Moore?
22 Ronald Hornbeck and James Davenport.
23 MR. HORNBECK; Ronnie Hornbeck.
24 Thank you for this opportunity. I'm in the
25 seafood business. In order for me to survive
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1 in the seafood business, I have to be into the
2 bait end of it, the wholesale, the retail, the
3 table, the live croakers and all in order to
4 survive.
5 I feel like the redheaded stepchild
6 who is getting beat upon here. Last year, we
7 had a hundred dollar increase on our license.
8 Between the two increases, it raised my license
9 fees $840. At the same time, we have less
10 opportunities, in my business, of getting fresh
11 Texas seafood. The State is crying they do not
12 want farm-raised, they are not wanting imported
13 seafood. With the current laws that exist
14 today, I can't get the products when I need
15 them. The bays are closed. The Gulf is closed
16 down. Yet my fees are going up. I don't know
17 how that the industry can survive or I, as a
18 businessman, can survive. And with these
19 increases that was -- as you're talking about
20 here that was came forth in January, now on
21 March 29th on this Bomer's report completely
22 diminishes what was brought forth forward.
23 Parks and Wildlife Department has
24 some fine people and doing a fine job. And I
25 believe if you will go along with Mr. Moore and
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1 let the industry work with the legislators and
2 let us work with the department in trying to
3 smooth out some of these kinks in the road
4 where that we're not able to operate. And yet
5 our fees are going up and up. And I would ask
6 the Commission here today to table this until
7 such time that we can go in and find out what
8 is the real problem and why hasn't this
9 money -- there's so many gray areas of what
10 happened to the money. If this money would --
11 why it has not been funneled into the right
12 departments where it should be put into. I
13 thank you. Any questions?
14 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Are there any
15 questions?
16 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: Madame Chairman,
17 as you just commented there on the side, I
18 think for the benefit of these gentlemen, we
19 need to have Suzy come back up and explain what
20 exactly the mandate was from the Legislature
21 and why we're in this position. Because the
22 points they're raising are certainly
23 legitimate, but I'm not sure how much leeway we
24 have. And maybe you can help us in explaining
25 that.
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1 MS. WHITTENTON: Maybe I can put it
2 back up there, the -- well, I guess I can't.
3 The exact wording of that rider said that, "We
4 shall adjust rates for licenses in each
5 commercial fishery program." I think it reads
6 pretty clearly that these -- all of these
7 licenses and permits fall under that category
8 of commercial fishery programs.
9 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: Would this
10 proposed increase do it any more than it fully
11 cost in your judgment?
12 MS. WHITTENTON: We are actually not
13 getting to full cost recovery.
14 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: So we're
15 coming in under that even in --
16 MS. WHITTENTON: Significantly under
17 that, yeah.
18 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Mr. Ramos?
19 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: The only
20 comment that I have is, it seems to me with the
21 word "shall" we really don't have any
22 discretion. And to some extent, we're not even
23 going the full hundred percent as pointed out
24 earlier. So 20 percent would be like the
25 minimum balance between everyone.
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1 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: I can assure the
2 people here that we looked -- all looked very
3 closely at this when we were studying the whole
4 area of fee increases. And I think it was
5 pretty clear to the Commission that our hands
6 were pretty much tied; that we did what we were
7 required to do here. But I encourage you to go
8 talk to your legislators.
9 Thank you, Suzy. Any further
10 questions? Commissioner Watson?
11 COMMISSIONER WATSON: No. I totally
12 support that. I feel like that -- you know, I
13 think in the -- in the effort to demonstrate
14 the cooperation that we want to have as
15 reflected in the things we want to do with
16 Mr. Bowmer's report -- I mean, I think 20
17 percent is just -- you know, I mean, that, to
18 me, is very minimal, you know, to comply with
19 the spirit of rider Number 22.
20 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Commissioner
21 Fitzsimons.
22 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: I would
23 agree with Commissioner Ramos, that it's hard
24 to read the word "shall" any other way. And a
25 suggestion that we table it, although it sounds
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1 benign, is just merely ignoring the mandate of
2 the Legislature. And I don't believe we can do
3 that. Thank you.
4 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Thank you. We have
5 Wesley Blevins -- or James Davenport, are you
6 up again? And then Wesley Blevins.
7 MR. DAVENPORT: Madame Chairman,
8 Commissioners -- as up on this board, y'all
9 kind of blew my train of thought here. But it
10 also said there necessary to recoup costs.
11 We're not the only people on this end as
12 commercial. There's a lot of other people out
13 on these waters. I think what we're concerned
14 about is, why is it all coming back on just the
15 commercial? We're not the only people out
16 there on this water. We're not the only people
17 out there on this water making money. This
18 says "As necessary." Maybe that's what we need
19 to ask you. Is this necessary, to put this all
20 on the commercial people? Maybe we need to get
21 back together and see who else needs to be
22 brought into this, just besides the --
23 commercial people. I agree with you, sir. 20
24 percent, I'm going to pay it. I chose to do
25 this all my life. I've been doing it 35 years
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1 and I'm probably going to die out there, I
2 guess. So I'm going to do it.
3 But, please, please consider not
4 just us all the time. You've got to know that
5 there's more things out there besides the
6 commercial, that is making money. I appreciate
7 your time. I had more, but no sense saying it
8 because you already said what -- and I promise
9 you our legislators are going to hear about
10 this. There will be no doubt about it. They
11 know us very well up there.
12 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Thank you,
13 Mr. Davenport.
14 MR. DAVENPORT: Thank you.
15 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: After Mr. Blevins,
16 we have Walter Zimmerman.
17 MR. BLEVINS: Madame Chairman, my
18 name is Wesley Blevins. I'm a representative
19 of Calhoun County Shrimpers. And everybody has
20 pretty well said the same thing over and -- I
21 mean, it all boils down to the same thing. We
22 just got hit with a hundred dollar increase
23 last year. And I would ask that y'all would
24 table this until we can go before legislation,
25 because -- let me explain why. I read part of
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1 the Bomer report, too. And there is a great
2 deal here that's not all being brought ought.
3 There is some areas that Parks and Wildlife is
4 not telling over at the Capitol building the
5 legislators and the -- over there, the senators
6 and the representatives the whole story. And I
7 beg her difference on the statewide input into
8 this. I think there was only two meetings
9 held, and there was none of us down in my area
10 even got to make no comments or nothing on
11 this. The next thing we know, we ain't had but
12 a few days here, it was in the Texas Registry.
13 That's the first that we heard of it. And,
14 see, this went in as a rider on a bill over
15 there in Austin. And a lot of the
16 representatives and the senators didn't even
17 really know what they were agreeing to because
18 I've been over to the Capitol and I've talked
19 to some of them. And Mr. Seaman's office said
20 that they was going to talk to y'all but didn't
21 think it was going to do no good but it's been
22 mandated, like you said.
23 But there's some areas there that
24 there's a lack of communication between Parks
25 and Wildlife and over there. And there
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131
1 shouldn't be nowadays because all Parks and
2 Wildlife has to do is hit a button on the
3 computer and they can send it to everybody over
4 at the Capitol building, but they don't choose
5 to do this every time. And I would appreciate
6 it if y'all would just table it and give us a
7 chance to go before legislation. Because, like
8 they said, it's a terrible increase on me, $100
9 on my bait license, $100 on my oyster license,
10 $100 on my bay license, $100 on my fin fish
11 license, $100 on my Gulf license. And it just
12 goes on and on and on. And I just can't afford
13 it. All I'm trying to do is make a living.
14 And, like I said, we went $100 on them license
15 last year. And I beg for y'all's time to give
16 us a little bit of time. And, like I said,
17 there was no input.
18 And one other thing, a while ago I
19 didn't get around to all of it on the crab
20 traps, I thought that we had it understood that
21 all the buoys was supposed to be white on crab
22 traps, yellow on trout lines. Why does the bay
23 look like a rainbow? Thank you for your time.
24 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Walter Zimmerman?
25 MR. BLEVINS: I forgot to ask, any
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1 questions?
2 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Mr. Blevins, we
3 appreciate your frustration. Again --
4 MR. BLEVINS: I just can't hardly
5 help myself. I mean, that's a lot of money to
6 me.
7 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: We appreciate your
8 frustration. But I believe it is clear to the
9 Commission that in this instance we have been
10 mandated to raise these, and that we really
11 don't have any choice here. But I would
12 suggest that you continue to talk to staff and
13 to be in contact with your Legislature to try
14 to do something.
15 MR. BLEVINS: Well, you see where it
16 goes with staff because they didn't even
17 acknowledge my emails that I sent to them and
18 put into the paper to quit destroying trout
19 lines and quit floating crab traps. Please do
20 it. I asked them nice. Please.
21 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Thank you.
22 MR. ZIMMERMAN: Thank you, Madame
23 Chairman and members of the Commission for the
24 opportunity to comment on the proposed license
25 fees for commercial fisheries at the Commission
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1 today. My name is Walter Zimmerman. I live in
2 Port Isabel, Texas. I've been in the shrimp
3 business since 1953. I have shore facilities
4 in Palacios, Port Isabel, and Brownsville. I
5 own 23 Gulf shrimp boats. I have two railways.
6 I have fuel facilities. I'm a part interest in
7 a processing house in Port Isabel. You have
8 heard this just -- the shrimp industry this
9 year is in serious trouble. We have too many
10 imports, the Chinese, the Vietnamese,
11 everywhere, it's just pouring in. There is no
12 market. That's the way supply and demand goes.
13 I haven't seen this in a long time. I don't
14 know -- we really don't know which way we're
15 heading. Because when you don't have a market,
16 it's bad. In England, European countries have
17 abandoned -- all the shrimp that was coming in
18 from China and from all other places, they have
19 been -- the pond-raised shrimp, they're feeding
20 them antibiotics and it's leaving a residue
21 that can cause cancer. Europe is kicking them
22 out and a lot of it is flooding this way. When
23 you get this kind of public at this, it's bad,
24 too, because people might not eat shrimp.
25 Anyway, I currently serve as your
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1 chairman for the Parks and Wildlife Shrimp
2 Advisory Panel and I'm a member of the Texas
3 Shrimp Association and a director, and I'm also
4 your appointee from Texas -- for the Shrimp
5 Advisory Panel for the Gulf of Mexico
6 Management Council.
7 I am opposed to your fee for several
8 reasons. One is -- that hasn't been mentioned
9 is that you are going to -- there is a joint
10 enforcement agreement that has come up from the
11 federal government. And you already have
12 received about a million dollars for
13 enforcement to work jointly. You haven't --
14 there's supposed to be -- if it goes through --
15 and it's not through yet. But if it does go
16 through, it's a $17 million program and Texas
17 will receive $4.5 million. That ought to be --
18 that has not been brought up today. And rather
19 than duplicate what everybody else has said,
20 you need to consider this. And if you do have
21 that coming, -- one other item that I'd like to
22 add --
23 MR. COOK: Mr. Zimmerman, your time
24 is up, sir.
25 MR. ZIMMERMAN: All right.
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1 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: Madame Chairman,
2 could you extend his time?
3 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Yes.
4 Mr. Zimmerman, why don't you finish what you
5 have to say, but don't take too long.
6 MR. ZIMMERMAN: This year we're not
7 going to have the 200-mile closure. We have
8 elected not to do that because there's so many
9 boats coming from Georgia, all over the
10 world -- or all over the states to our waters
11 to produce -- to catch the shrimp. We like to
12 catch large shrimp. We like the 200-mile
13 closure. But we've got so much competition and
14 we cannot get the other states to close. We
15 really prefer a Gulf closure.
16 There may be something in the move
17 now because all the other states now are asking
18 the national marine fisheries to open up the
19 hearing process again because they want our
20 200-mile closure because they make money off
21 it. But it still doesn't help us in this
22 industry. We sacrifice, we close. When you
23 close the waters, of course, we all have to go
24 to Louisiana.
25 But anyway, there's a lot of new
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1 changes going on, and I don't know. But the 20
2 percent now is not bad, but 20 percent in five
3 years will change my -- just on my Gulf boat,
4 I'll be paying from $8,625, in five more years
5 I'll be paying $21,500. That's a lot of money.
6 And if you can, incorporate the federal. We do
7 want enforcement. Sitting down with -- I want
8 to visit with him a little bit. We need it bad
9 in the Gulf, very bad. So anything you can do
10 to help us, I'd appreciate it. Thank you.
11 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Thank you. Muriel
12 Tipps?
13 MS. TIPPS: Madame Chairman,
14 Commissioners, I have read the SAO report in
15 its entirety, and I do know that when they say
16 "shall," you will. Thank you for this
17 opportunity to give public testimony on behalf
18 of the commercial fishermen in my area. We
19 have watched the progress of these proceedings
20 while also monitoring the various audits that
21 have been conducted within your agencies. As
22 noted by the report, this agency has many
23 problems they need to address. Most disturbing
24 is the budget overview that is so vague in
25 regard to monies spent in the shrimp fishery.
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1 It is hard to determine anything. One
2 disturbing factor is that in the capital
3 program, our commercial shrimping license fees
4 are used on things that aren't even related to
5 our industry. For instance, the sinking of the
6 TEXAS CLIPPER to create an artificial reef,
7 major repairs at the Sea Center Rockport,
8 GCCA/CPL, and Dickinson. Are we paying for
9 everything? How they arrived at the cost
10 recovery of $9 million is based alone on
11 speculation and comments by staff rather than
12 good accurate data. There is no way the shrimp
13 industry has had that kind of attention other
14 than the regulation package last year. Other
15 than a series of outreach meetings, there has
16 been very little involvement in the field by
17 any coastal fisheries staff. We also had the
18 limited entry programs in finfish and crab. Is
19 the shrimper responsible for this also? It is
20 disturbing that the department does not
21 differentiate between commercial and
22 recreational fishery costs. You continually
23 raise our fees, but not necessarily theirs. As
24 far as the field data goes, when sampling gear
25 is used, it is for the benefit of all public
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1 users as well as nonconsumptive users. This
2 cost should be shared by all users, not just
3 the commercial shrimpers. The business
4 practices evaluation done by Mr. Bomer was
5 astonishing. So much waste, how in the world
6 can you pin all this neglect and inefficiency
7 on the few commercial fishermen left in this
8 state year after year. The working man does
9 not have a chance with management like this.
10 Much of the cost problems are in the
11 oyster lease program, not the shrimping
12 industry. The oyster committee has worked hard
13 to renegotiate these leases and will more than
14 double the revenue. Also, let it be known that
15 the oyster fisherman pays $1 a barrel of
16 oysters to the State. The payment -- the
17 fishermen are paying this resource to the State
18 Health Department. This amount paid to the
19 State agency is staggering each year. Why
20 hasn't the legislative Appropriations Committee
21 seen that a portion of this money is allocated
22 to coastal fisheries for administration
23 management of the oyster leases? When licenses
24 or permits are levied, isn't it supposed to be
25 to regulate the industry in which it was
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1 intended? This certainly does not seem to be
2 the case at all.
3 We offer the following suggestions:
4 formulate budgets for each fisheries left in
5 our states in the commercial sector. These
6 would include separate line item budgets for
7 management of oyster leases, fishing,
8 crabbing -- finfishing, crabbing, shrimping,
9 bait shrimp, and Gulf. The recreational
10 industry should include the bay cabins, the
11 artificial reefs, the hatcheries for sport
12 fishing, and the sea centers for tourists.
13 During times of heavy restructuring, solicit
14 grants from federal sources and others to
15 offset the cost from the working Texans,
16 whether they be commercial or recreational.
17 Sitting at the management table is expensive.
18 Increasingly, much of your staff time and the
19 legislator is taken by nonprofit tax-free
20 conservation groups. Why aren't they paying
21 their fair share? They demand a place at the
22 management table and pay for nothing and create
23 havoc much of the time which lengthens the
24 process. These groups are popping up
25 everywhere. Texas Parks and Wildlife should
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1 set some kind of criteria for these people to
2 be involved. They have ridden the free wagon
3 for too long. What fee or license can we
4 charge them to use the public servants of this
5 State and tie up the Legislature year after
6 year. Where is --
7 MR. COOK: Mrs. Tipps, time is up.
8 MS. TIPPS: And I will turn in this
9 letter. You already have it from Mr. Uher.
10 And this will raise my license fees $1200.
11 Thank you.
12 MR. COOK: Thank you, Ms. Tipps. Do
13 we have any questions?
14 Are there any comments from the
15 Commission on this item? Is there a motion on
16 this item?
17 COMMISSIONER WATSON: So moved.
18 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: I have a motion by
19 Commissioner Watson. Do I have a second?
20 COMMISSIONER RISING: Second.
21 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Second by
22 Commissioner Rising. All in favor, please say
23 aye.
24 ("Aye.")
25 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Any opposed?
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1 Hearing none, motion carries.
2 (Motion passes.)
3 "The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission adopts
4 amendments to 31 TAC 53.6 concerning Commercial
5 Fishing Licenses and Tags, and 31 TAC 53.7
6 concerning Business License and Permits, with
7 changes to text as published in the March 1,
8 2002 issue of the Texas Register (27 TexReg
9 1461)."
10 AGENDA ITEM NO. 9: ACTION - AMENDMENTS TO THE
11 PUBLIC LANDS PROCLAMATION ESTABLISHMENT OF AN
12 OPEN SEASON ON PUBLIC LANDS 2002-2003 PROPOSED
13 HUNTING ACTIVITIES ON STATE PARKS
14 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Agenda Item No. 8
15 is an action item, License Fee -- excuse me,
16 excuse me. Action Item No. 9, Public Lands
17 Proclamation. Mr. Kothmann.
18 MR. KOTHMANN: Madame Chairman,
19 members of the Commission, my name is Herb
20 Kothmann. I'm the director of public hunts.
21 This presentation concerns three items:
22 amendments to the Public Lands Proclamation,
23 the public hunts on the state parks, and
24 establishment of open hunting season on the
25 public hunting lands.
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1 The changes proposed in the Public
2 Lands Proclamation to remove duplicate
3 regulations concerning public hunting fees.
4 Presently they appear in both the public lands
5 proclamation and our public fees proclamation.
6 Therefore, the staff is requesting that
7 references to fee amounts be removed from the
8 Public Lands Proclamation.
9 A second proposed change would
10 remove the provision for hunting small game on
11 five U.S. Forest Service wildlife management
12 areas that are administered under this agency
13 for public hunting, remove that provision for
14 public hunting under the $10 permit. On our
15 other 252 units that allow hunting by annual
16 permit, the $40 permit is required. We
17 initially implemented the $10 permit on the
18 Forest Service areas at their request because
19 they felt they had a large number of people
20 that just hunted squirrel and didn't want them
21 to have to purchase the $40 permit. Since that
22 has been in place now for about five or six
23 years, the sale of the permits has still stayed
24 at about 2000 years -- I mean, 2000 permits
25 through the 15-year history of the program.
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1 Our survey of the permittees indicate that
2 about 500 people that purchase this $10 permit
3 actually hunt under it. And unfortunately, a
4 bunch of that hunting activity happens on
5 places where it is not authorized; it's
6 confusing to the permittees. Therefore, we're
7 recommending that the $10 permit be made
8 strictly a nonconsumptive permit and that all
9 adults who hunt under an annual permit have the
10 $40 permit. I remind you that all youth under
11 17 do not have to have their own public hunting
12 permit. They can hunt free under the
13 supervision of an adult that does have the $40
14 permit.
15 The state park hunt proposals, staff
16 recommends public hunts on 43 units of the
17 state park during the 2002-2003 season. All of
18 these 43 units are among the 45 units which the
19 commission approved for public hunts last year.
20 The remaining two units are Arroyo-Colorado,
21 which has since been transferred to the
22 Wildlife Division and will be hunted as a
23 wildlife management area this fall, and the
24 Dinosaur Valley State Park on which our field
25 staff have determined this year they are not
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1 recommending a public hunt.
2 I have a series of three slides here
3 that give the names of the actual 43 parks
4 proposed for hunts. They are shown at
5 Exhibit B of your agenda item in more detail,
6 showing the exact legal species, the type of
7 public hunting permit required, the number of
8 hunter positions to be offered, the hunt dates,
9 and restrictions on general visitation that
10 would result if these hunts were implemented.
11 The second slide indicates 17 of
12 these parks. The proposals for these hunts
13 have been posted on our department's Web page
14 for more than a month. They were presented at
15 22 public hearings around the state. And our
16 comments as of this morning were, 25 comments
17 received; 22 supporting the proposed park hunts
18 and three in opposition.
19 The proposed hunts would result in
20 approximately 2,043 drawn hunter positions
21 being made available to the public. This is
22 down slightly from last year. But roughly it
23 would be a rerun of what we offered this past
24 year.
25 An open hunting season on our public
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1 hunting land -- and I'm not just speaking about
2 state parks here. It's also our wildlife
3 management areas and our leased lands for
4 public hunting. An open season must be
5 established in order for those public hunts to
6 be conducted. In Chapter 62 and 81 of our
7 Parks and Wildlife Code gives this Commission
8 authority to establish an open season for
9 hunting on these public hunting lands.
10 Therefore, Madame Chairman, staff is
11 recommending the Commission adopt the following
12 three-part motion. And I will try to read
13 correctly this rather wordy motion. The first
14 portion is: The Parks and Wildlife Commission
15 adopts amendments to the 31 TAC 53.5,
16 concerning public hunting and fishing permits
17 and fees and 65.191, 65.193, and 65.194,
18 concerning the Public Lands Proclamation, with
19 changes to the proposed text as published in
20 the February 22, 2002 issue of Texas Register.
21 That is located at Exhibit A. Part 2, the
22 Texas Parks and Wildlife Department authorizes
23 the hunting activities designated in Exhibit B
24 to be conducted on the listed units of the
25 state park system. And part 3 of that motion
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1 would be, the Texas Parks and Wildlife
2 Commission authorizes an open hunting season on
3 public hunting lands to run from September 1,
4 2002 to August 31, 2003.
5 Madame Chairman, that concludes my
6 presentation. Do you have any questions?
7 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Are there any
8 questions of Mr. Kothmann from the Commission?
9 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: I have
10 one.
11 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Commissioner
12 Fitzsimons.
13 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Herb, do
14 you have any -- and I'm sorry to pop you with
15 this question. But do you have any idea the
16 number of hunter days made available by the
17 hunting in state parks and WMAs?
18 MR. KOTHMANN: Hunter days?
19 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Or however
20 you measure is it.
21 MR. KOTHMANN: I do have a
22 measurement here. For example, if you take the
23 43 state parks -- I was trying to calculate the
24 impact upon general visitation. If you take
25 the 43 state parks, each exists out there for
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1 365 days a year. That's 15,695 park days.
2 These hunts as proposed would be conducted for
3 1,735 park days. However, only 209 of those
4 park days would exclude the public visitation
5 of a park. So therefore, that would have an
6 impact of only 1.3 percent on general
7 visitation, which -- and, of course, those hunt
8 dates are carefully scheduled to avoid weekends
9 and major holidays in the first period. The
10 number of hunter days -- like I said, there's a
11 little over 2000 -- 2043 drawn hunter
12 positions. In addition to that, we have some
13 hunts for dove, squirrel, waterfowl on some of
14 these areas that would add significantly to the
15 number of hunters. Those are not restricted in
16 number. That's open to people either under the
17 $40 annual public hunting permit or, in some
18 cases, a $10 daily permit that's offered.
19 Just off the top of my head, I would
20 say that the number of hunter events, daily
21 event, it would probably be in the neighborhood
22 of easily three times this number of drawn
23 positions, if you added the drawn and these
24 annual permit hunts and regular permit hunts
25 together.
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1 But I'm counting one venture,
2 whether it's an hour or daylight until dark, as
3 a hunter event there.
4 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: And does
5 that include or not include the wildlife
6 management areas?
7 MR. KOTHMANN: This does not include
8 the wildlife management areas. Wildlife
9 management areas is about double this effort.
10 And this does not include the 100-plus dove
11 leases that we have. So this is just a portion
12 of our overall public hunting program.
13 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Thanks for
14 the important work you do for public hunting
15 access in Texas. Thank you.
16 MR. KOTHMANN: Thank you.
17 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: We have two people
18 signed up to speak, if you don't have any
19 further questions of Mr. Kothmann. Ellis
20 Gilleland and Kirby Brown.
21 MR. GILLELAND: My name is Ellis
22 Gilleland. I'm speaking for Texas animals.
23 The handout I gave you previously is applicable
24 here, operating instruction number 24 of the
25 state parks division, dated May 2001. I'm
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1 asking you to make this a rule because I don't
2 think Colonel Stinebaugh can prosecute anybody
3 on an operating instruction. The next thing I
4 would like to emphasize is, that if you make
5 that a rule, that will lay the foundation,
6 then, for making it a rule against corn feeding
7 outside of the park, because you've got a
8 rule -- or you've got an operating instruction
9 that says, no, you can't feed corn inside the
10 park.
11 Okay. The next issue I would like
12 to address is, is to ask you to cancel the
13 hunting -- next hunting season, white-tailed
14 deer -- oh, I got a rise over there -- next
15 hunting season because of the rampant poaching
16 that's going on at Choke Canyon State Park by
17 all the officials there, the game wardens, two
18 of them, the special park police, two of them,
19 the director, Lee Escamilla, one. Those five
20 are the main ones. They're allowing excess
21 number of people to hunt over and above what's
22 approved in the proclamation.
23 Now, I've reported to Colonel
24 Stinebaugh two months ago. Nothing has been
25 done about it that I know of. I don't think
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1 they're hanging by their thumbs. I told him
2 also that the poaching of quail and possibly
3 dove, uh-oh, federal reg, is going on there
4 also. I've got scads of documentary evidence
5 to prove that poaching of deer is going on with
6 corn, poaching of the doves and quail with milo
7 and bird feed all over the place, stacked up
8 ankle deep down there. It's a rat's nest.
9 So I'm asking you to, number one,
10 make this feeding thing and shooting animals
11 over feed a rule or law, you can make it a code
12 thing. And I'm asking you to prosecute the
13 people that have been doing it, and I'm asking
14 you to preclude the next hunting season of the
15 poaching going on, because they're doing it
16 with malice and forethought.
17 Now, I've got a little time left,
18 I'll just go on. The poaching of white-tailed
19 deer has been going on down there between 1987
20 and 1997. I told Colonel Stinebaugh about
21 this, I've got evidence to prove it. I've
22 never been asked to give any testimony on it.
23 I've never been asked to make a sworn
24 statement. The poaching, I've got scads of
25 videotapes and eyeball testimony of the
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1 poaching, the license numbers and the people
2 who is doing it. I've never been asked to give
3 that. Now, I'll going to try to meet with
4 Colonel Stinebaugh next week and I'm going to
5 give him the evidence, physical evidence,
6 material evidence of the deer poaching that's
7 going. And I'm going to back off and wait.
8 At some point, I'm going to get
9 tired of waiting and I'm going to start going
10 to the FBI and any other -- DPS or any other
11 law officer that's above you people, and I'm
12 going to prefer charges against y'all because
13 you're letting rampant poaching going on under
14 your purview.
15 MR. COOK: Mr. Gilleland? Thank
16 you, sir.
17 MR. GILLELAND: Thank you.
18 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Kirby Brown.
19 MR. BROWN: Madame Chairman,
20 Commissioners, my name is Kirby Brown with the
21 Texas Wildlife Association. We would note that
22 about 20 percent of the normal season on
23 private lands is really normal. And maybe we
24 should raise that 1.2 percent on state parks
25 just a little bit and have more public hunting
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1 allowed out there. We do want to thank Herb
2 and all the work that he's done through the
3 years to make this happen. It is a great
4 program, and I think they have done a
5 tremendous job. Thank you very much.
6 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Are there any
7 further questions from the Commission?
8 MR. KOTHMANN: Madame Chairman, my
9 assistant was "Johnnie-on-the-spot" and rushed
10 some data down to me to respond to Commissioner
11 Fitzsimons' question. And, again, it's not
12 hunter days, but the expansion this past season
13 we estimated 26,777 area days open up out
14 there. This is everywhere from the small dove
15 leases to the Big Bend Ranch State Park to the
16 Black Gap to the Kerr. But it's really a
17 phenomenal amount of opportunity out there.
18 But we're seeking more still.
19 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Well done.
20 Keep it up. Hope it's more next year.
21 MR. KOTHMANN: Thank you.
22 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Thank you, Herb.
23 If there are no more comments from the
24 Commission, is there a motion on this item?
25 COMMISSIONER AVILA: Move approval.
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1 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Second.
2 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Approval by
3 Commissioner Avila, second by Commissioner
4 Ramos. All in favor say aye?
5 ("Aye.")
6 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Any opposed?
7 Hearing none, motion carries.
8 (Motion passes.)
9 "The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission adopts
10 amendments to 31 TAC Section 53.5 concerning
11 Public Hunting and Fishing Permits and Fees and
12 Sections 65.191, 65.193, and 65.194, concerning
13 the Public Lands Proclamation, with changes to
14 the proposed text as published in the February
15 22, 2002, issue of the Texas Register (27
16 TexReg 1277), located at Exhibit A."
17
18 2. "The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission
19 authorizes the hunting activities designated in
20 Exhibit B to be conducted on the listed units
21 of the state park system."
22
23 3. "The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission
24 authorizes an open hunting season on public
25 hunting lands to run from September 1, 2002 to
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1 August 31, 2003."
2 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: I'm going to recess
3 the meeting for lunch. We will go into
4 executive session. Is this where I read the --
5 okay. Beginning of executive session as
6 required by Chapter 551 of the Government Code
7 referred to as the Open Meetings Law, let the
8 record show this meeting of the Parks and
9 Wildlife Commission -- we're going into recess.
10 Okay. We're going into recess.
11 (LUNCH RECESS)
12 AGENDA ITEM NO. 10: ACTION - COMMISSION POLICY
13 MANUAL RESOLUTION/DESIGNATION OF OFFICIAL
14 NONPROFIT
15 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: We're convening the
16 meeting. Our first -- we are on Agenda Item
17 No. 10, an action item, Commission Policy
18 Manual.
19 MR. McCARTY: Chairman,
20 Commissioners, my name is Gene McCarty. I'm
21 chief of staff. This item is an continuation
22 of the implementation of statutory changes
23 enacted by Senate Bill 305. To accurately
24 reflect the changes established by the
25 Department of Sunset Bill, the Commission must
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1 adopt changes to its policy manual. These
2 include language that provides for public
3 comment before any major decisions, provides
4 for publication of Commission transcripts on
5 the official department Website and removes the
6 constituent -- or the consent agenda
7 guidelines.
8 In addition, Senate Bill 305
9 requires the Commission to designate a single,
10 nonprofit partner as the official nonprofit
11 partner. Staff recommends that the Parks and
12 Wildlife Foundation of Texas be designated as
13 the official nonprofit partner. As a
14 stipulation of this designation, the Foundation
15 would be required to follow the best practices
16 of the official nonprofit partner as adopted by
17 the Commission at its last meeting and all
18 Commission rules on sponsorships. It is
19 further recommended that this designation be
20 made in the form of a new commission policy,
21 commission policy number 15. Policy amendments
22 and new policies must be adopted by resolution.
23 Staff recommends that the commission adopt the
24 following motion. Texas Parks and Wildlife
25 Commission adopts by resolution that provides
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1 policy manual of the Texas Parks and Wildlife
2 Commission. Any questions?
3 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: Move approval.
4 COMMISSIONER WATSON: Second.
5 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: I've got a motion
6 from Commissioner Angelo, a second by
7 Commissioner Watson. All in favor, please say
8 aye.
9 ("Aye.")
10 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Any opposed?
11 Hearing none, motion carries. Thank you, Gene.
12 (Motion passed.)
13 "The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission adopts
14 by resolution (Exhibit B) the revised policy
15 manual of the Texas Parks and Wildlife
16 Commission (Exhibit A)."
17 AGENDA ITEM NO. 11: BRIEFING - GAME WARDEN
18 ACADEMY STATUS REPORT
19 (WHEREUPON, a briefing item was
20 presented to the Commissioners, after which,
21 the following proceedings were had:)
22 AGENDA ITEM NO. 12: ACTION - NOMINATION FOR OIL
23 AND GAS LEASE TYLER STATE PARK-SMITH COUNTY
24 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Agenda Item No. 12
25 is an action item, Nomination for Oil and Gas
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1 Tyler State Park. Mr. Ray, will you please
2 make your presentation.
3 MR. RAY: Madame Chairman and
4 Commissioners, I'm Ronnie Ray with the Land
5 Conservation and Acquisition Group. The item
6 for your consideration today that I have is an
7 oil and gas nomination at Tyler State Park.
8 These are the terms of the lease for a
9 51-acre -- mineral acres of the park. This is
10 the motion that's before you. Are there any
11 questions?
12 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Madame
13 Chair, I believe I had all my questions
14 answered yesterday and this morning. I move --
15 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: So are you -- is
16 this a motion?
17 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Yeah.
18 It's a motion, move for the adoption of the
19 recommendation.
20 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: Second.
21 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: Second.
22 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Whoa, we have
23 somebody that would like to speak to this.
24 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Oh, do we?
25 I'm sorry.
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1 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Mr. Gilleland, I
2 believe you asked to speak to this?
3 MR. Gilleland: Yes, ma'am, I did
4 ask to speak.
5 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Well, come on.
6 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: Well, I
7 apologize.
8 MR. GILLELAND: I do have a handout,
9 ma'am. My name is Ellis Gilleland. I'm
10 speaking for Texas Animals. And the handout
11 that I'm giving you now is really for both
12 items, this one and the next one. It has to do
13 with the pipeline easement.
14 So this is drilling. And you've got
15 to have a pipeline for the drilling. So what
16 I'm bringing to you is something that I brought
17 to your attention several meetings ago about
18 the easement when you wanted to emasculate the
19 Rule 51.92 and take out all the environmental
20 stuff and so forth. And I beseeched you not
21 to.
22 So on the easement, the thing I
23 beseeched you not to take off was not even
24 mentioned yesterday. All this is superfluous.
25 It has to do with the animals, the environment,
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1 and so forth. All you talked about yesterday
2 was the money, how much was going to be paid,
3 and blah blah blah. Well, let's look at it
4 from the animal's side. You did not consider
5 yesterday, and I assume you didn't consider the
6 adverse effects, impacts on the property.
7 That's by your -- this is your law. This isn't
8 mine. This is your law. I'm reading your law
9 to you and you're not doing it, like the game
10 warden.
11 B, prudent alternative. You did not
12 discuss prudent alternatives yesterday. You
13 did not discuss prudent alternatives today.
14 It's in your law. There it is.
15 The third item, discuss alternative
16 to the location of the easement. Not done
17 yesterday, not done today. I can only assume
18 it was done with malice or forethought to pay
19 off those 180 -- make those 180 bank statements
20 balance.
21 Moving on from your law into the
22 Houston Chronicle, 9th of March, 2002, article
23 which you have in front of you, Senate passes
24 bill for pipeline safety. Please note, quote,
25 on an average of four major, major pipeline
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1 accidents causing death, injury, and property
2 damage greater 50,000 occurred each week. Four
3 major each week. Four times 50 is over 200 per
4 year.
5 Why can't it happen at Tyler? Well,
6 it can, folks, I'll tell you, ladies and
7 gentlemen. Moving down to number 2,
8 environmental sensitive. Yes, Tyler is very
9 environmental sensitive. We don't want to
10 damage those roses. Adopt safety program.
11 Never mentioned yesterday or today. Four, mark
12 location. Look at your video. There's no
13 location for that pipeline there, just a bare
14 stretch of road. Is that in your lawyer
15 language that goes in there, marking the
16 pipeline? No, it is not. But it's something
17 that has to be considered. You mark -- how can
18 you avoid ripping it up if it's not marked?
19 It's not marked. The rest I'll discuss in the
20 next item. Thank you.
21 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Are there any
22 questions or comments from the Commission?
23 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Just a
24 clarification for Mr. Ray. The proposal as to
25 Tyler State Park does not include drilling on
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1 that 51 acres. Correct?
2 MR. RAY: Right. All activity of
3 the property will be prohibited.
4 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Thank you.
5 That's all. Thank you.
6 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Do I have a motion
7 on this?
8 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Motion.
9 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Second.
10 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Second.
11 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: I have a motion and
12 a second. All in favor, please say aye.
13 ("Aye.")
14 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: All opposed?
15 Hearing none, motion carries.
16 (Motion passes.)
17 "The Executive Director is authorized to
18 nominate for oil and gas lease to the Board for
19 Lease for Parks and Wildlife Lands, three
20 tracts of land consisting of 50.96 mineral
21 acres out of the Tyler State Park, with
22 minimums of $150 per acre bonus, 25 percent
23 royalty, $10 per acre delay rental, and a
24 3-year term, incorporating the restrictions set
25 out in Exhibit A."
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1 AGENDA ITEM NO. 13: ACTION - PROPOSAL FOR
2 PETROLEUM PIPELINE EASEMENT - RESACA DE LA
3 PALMA STATE PARK-CAMERON COUNTY
4 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Agenda No. 13 Is an
5 action item, Petroleum Pipeline Easement,
6 Cameron County. Mr. Gissell.
7 MR. GISSELL: Thank you, Madame
8 Chairman, Commissioners. My name is Dennis
9 Gissell. I'm the wildlife management area
10 facilities coordinator in the wildlife
11 division.
12 Today we're here to ask for your
13 approval to proceed with a development of an
14 easement for two petroleum pipelines that were
15 installed in the Resaca De La Palma State Park
16 in Cameron County just west of Brownsville.
17 Late in 1999, two petroleum pipelines were
18 installed by a contractor of Penn Octane
19 Corporation without permission of Texas Parks
20 and Wildlife Department. The pipelines were
21 constructed under a presidential permit to
22 provide liquid propane gas, gasoline, and
23 diesel to Mexico.
24 This shows the boundaries of the
25 area with an inset for the location of
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1 pipelines. This shows where the pipelines are
2 located in the southeast corner of the wildlife
3 management area -- -- or the state park.
4 Excuse me. This is the right-of-way where the
5 two pipelines were installed approximately 1493
6 feet in length. The proposal is for an
7 easement 30 foot in width just a fraction over
8 an acre.
9 Once the pipelines were discovered,
10 staff negotiated a survey of the boundary of
11 the eastern side of the park. The location of
12 the pipelines, an archeological survey, and
13 damage fees and easement fees associated with
14 this installation.
15 The applicant and staff request
16 permission to proceed with an easement through
17 the board for lease of the General Land Office,
18 which would include a ten-year easement and a
19 total of $118,096 in fees, damages and fees;
20 $100,000 in damages, $18,096 are in easement
21 fees. This concludes my presentation. I'd be
22 pleased to answer any questions.
23 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Are there any
24 questions from the committee? We have one
25 person signed up to speak. Ellis Gilleland.
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1 MR. GILLELAND: Thank you, Madame
2 Chairman, for being so gracious in letting me
3 speak. And all of you, bless you. Ellis
4 Gilleland, representing animal rights, who
5 can't be here and speak for themselves. God
6 bless them, because you won't. God have mercy
7 on their souls and on yours.
8 Item number 5, I did not get down to
9 5 on Houston Chronicle nonmarks. And 5 is
10 inspection. You must inspect the -- fail to
11 inspect the pipelines and maintain it. There's
12 nothing in your paperwork about maintenance.
13 And, gentlemen, I hope you're taking all this
14 in because this is military stuff. This
15 affects military readiness and security in our
16 southern Brownsville area. And God help us if
17 it blows up down there. I beseech you to do
18 what you're supposed to do. I don't care
19 whether you hate me or not. But do what is
20 right. Do what was taught to you in medical
21 school and save lives instead of destroying
22 lives.
23 Moving on to the third document is
24 the Houston Chronicle article March 13, 2002,
25 "Pipeline turns over 100 acres." The salient
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1 point is for you lawyers, a Beaumont jury in
2 1997 concluded the companies who caused this
3 environmental damage were not liable for the
4 losses. Peg that. What do you call that?
5 That is a bedrock case, and you'll see it again
6 and again. It is a judgment and it's affirmed
7 by the Court. The Sheldon Lake. We talked
8 about Sheldon Lake about ten times this time.
9 Sheldon Lake was destroyed to the tune of $36
10 million plus ten -- 36 million plus 10 million
11 damage. In my book that makes $46 million.
12 You people are rich, maybe 46 million don't
13 mean a hill of beans to you, but it means a lot
14 to Bomer. Bowmer haggled you folks for 200K.
15 What would he do for 46? He would crucify you,
16 and I would clap. Thank you.
17 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Do we have any
18 further comments from staff? Any further
19 comments from the commission?
20 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: Move approval.
21 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Second.
22 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: I have a motion by
23 Commissioner Angelo, a second by Commissioner
24 Ramos. All in favor say aye.
25 ("Aye.")
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1 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Any opposed?
2 Hearing none, motion carries.
3 (Motion passes.)
4 "The Executive Director is authorized to
5 approve the granting of a petroleum product
6 transmission pipeline easement to the Board of
7 Lease for Parks and Wildlife Lands. Damage to
8 wildlife habitat is assessed at $100,000. In
9 addition, a fee of $10/rod for each of the two
10 pipelines in this 90.48 rod easement are
11 assessed at $1809.70 per year, for a total of
12 $18,096.96 for the 10 year easement. Damages
13 are to be paid in monthly installments for 12
14 months and easement fees are to paid in one
15 lump sum payment, incorporating the
16 restrictions set out in Exhibit A."
17 AGENDA ITEM NO. 14: ACTION - EASEMENT
18 ASSIGNMENTS-TRAVIS COUNTY
19 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Agenda Item No. 14
20 is an action item, Easement Assignments, Travis
21 County. Mr. Bauer, will you please make your
22 presentation.
23 MR. BAUER: Madame Chairman and
24 Commissioners, my name is Jack Bauer, land
25 conservation program director. This item
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1 develops right-of-way easement recommendations
2 for the board for lease for Parks and Wildlife
3 lands. As you're aware, the department has
4 supervised the construction of fiberoptic
5 conduit along Smith School Road at the
6 department headquarters with several fiberoptic
7 cable providers. These activities are being
8 authorized through issuance of construction
9 permits. The department and these two service
10 providers request conversion of these
11 contractual agreements to right-of-way
12 easements.
13 Staff recommends the Commission
14 consider the motion before you that will
15 recommend the board for lease assign and
16 existing ten-year easement to MCI World Com and
17 issue a ten-year easement to XO Texas,
18 Incorporated. Appropriate fees have already
19 been collected from these corporations. And I
20 would be happy to answer any questions.
21 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Do we have any
22 comments from the Commission on this item?
23 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: I'd make a
24 motion.
25 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Mr. Montgomery has
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1 made a motion. Do we have a second in at.
2 COMMISSIONER WATSON: Second.
3 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Second by
4 Commissioner Watson. All in favor?
5 ("Aye.")
6 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Any opposed?
7 Hearing none, motion carries.
8 (Motion passes.)
9 "The Executive Director is authorized to
10 recommend to the Board for Lease for Parks and
11 Wildlife Lands the granting of: (1) an easement
12 assignment of existing easement ME #20000012 to
13 MCI WorldCom Network Services, Inc. under all
14 the existing terms and conditions set forth in
15 that easement, and (2) an easement to XO Texas,
16 Inc. incorporating all the terms and conditions
17 existing in the 'CONSTRUCTION PERMIT AND
18 CERTIFICATE OF OCCUPANCY' dated January 18,
19 2001 between TPWD and XO Texas, Inc. attached as
20 Exhibit B."
21 AGENDA ITEM NO. 15: ACTION - LAND
22 DONATION-ORANGE COUNTY
23 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Agenda Item No. 15,
24 Land Donation, Orange County. Mr. Bauer,
25 again, will you please make your presentation.
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169
1 MR. BAUER: Yes. Thank you. This
2 item develops a land donation recommendation at
3 the lower Neches Wildlife Management Area in
4 Orange County. The estate of Nelda Stark has
5 offered approximately 18 acres to the
6 Department as a habitat addition to the Old
7 River Unit. This follows a generous donation
8 in 1993 of over 3,000 acres.
9 Staff recommends the Commission
10 consider the motion before you that will
11 authorize the executive director to take all
12 necessary steps to acquire this property as a
13 donation from the Nelda Stark estate.
14 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: And we have a
15 motion by Commissioner Angelo and a second by
16 Commissioner Montgomery. All in favor, please
17 say aye.
18 ("Aye.")
19 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Any opposed?
20 Hearing none, motion carries.
21 (Motion passes.)
22 "The Executive Director is authorized to
23 recommend to the Board for Lease for Parks and
24 Wildlife land the granting of: (1) an easement
25 assignment of existing easement ME #20000012 to
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1 MCI WorldCom Network Services, Inc. under all
2 the existing terms and conditions set forth in
3 that easement, and (2) an easement to XO Texas,
4 Inc. incorporating all the terms and conditions
5 existing in the 'CONSTRUCTION PERMIT AND
6 CERTIFICATE OF OCCUPANCY' dated January 18,
7 2001 between TPWD and XO Texas, Inc. attached as
8 Exhibit B."
9 AGENDA ITEM NO. 15: ACTION - LAND
10 DONATION-ORANGE COUNTY
11 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Agenda Item No. 16,
12 also an action item, Land Acquisition, Fort
13 Bend County. Mr. Bauer.
14 MR. BAUER: Thank you.
15 Approximately 80 acres of agricultural land has
16 been offered to the Department at the Brazos
17 Bend State Park in Fort Bend County. The
18 acreage will provide grassland habitat for
19 restoration of wet development and provide
20 buffer between the park and nearby development.
21 Staff recommends the Commission
22 consider the motion that you have before you
23 that will authorize the executive director to
24 take the necessary steps to purchase the
25 property. And I would be happy to answer any
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171
1 questions.
2 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Any questions from
3 the Commission? Do we have a motion?
4 COMMISSIONER RISING: Motion.
5 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: Second.
6 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Motion from
7 Commissioner Rising, second by Commissioner
8 Angelo. All in favor please say aye?
9 ("Aye.")
10 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Opposed? Hearing
11 none, motion carries.
12 (Motion passes.)
13 "The Executive Director is authorized to take
14 all necessary steps to acquire approximately 80
15 acres in Fort Bend County as a habitat addition
16 to Brazos Bend State Park."
17 AGENDA ITEM NO. 17: ACTION - LAND
18 ACQUISITION-HARRIS COUNTY
19 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Agenda Item No. 17
20 calls for an action item, Land Acquisition in
21 Harris County.
22 MR. BAUER: Yes. This item relates
23 to land being offered to the Department as part
24 of an environmental damage lawsuit settlement
25 stemming from a 1994 pipeline rupture near
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1 Houston. A U.S. district court settlement
2 agreement recommends that approximately 102
3 acres of bottom land hardwood habitat be
4 provided to the Department as an addition to
5 Sheldon Lake State Park. Staff supports the
6 recommendation presuming that environmental due
7 diligence sufficiently justify that the
8 property is environmentally safe. Minimal
9 management funds are also being provided.
10 Staff recommends the motion
11 considered here that will authorize the
12 executive director to take the necessary steps
13 to accept the property. I'll be happy to
14 answer questions.
15 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Are there any
16 questions from the Commission? Do I have a
17 motion?
18 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: So moved.
19 VICE-CHAIR ANGELO: Second.
20 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Motion by
21 Commissioner Fitzsimons, second by Commissioner
22 Ramos. All in favor say aye?
23 ("Aye.")
24 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Any opposed?
25 Hearing none, motion carried.
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1 (Motion passed.)
2 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Oh, dear. I have
3 one person that needs to speak up to this.
4 Let's back up a bit. I'm so sorry. George
5 Wilkinson, could you step up, please?
6 MR. WILKINSON: Yeah. George
7 Wilkinson with Vinson & Elkins in Houston. I'm
8 here for Colonial Pipeline Company just to
9 answer questions really. I didn't have --
10 wasn't going take the Commission's time with
11 any statement.
12 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: I apologize. You
13 came all this way. Are there any questions of
14 Mr. Wilkinson from the Commission? Thanks for
15 coming.
16 MR. WILKINSON: Thank you.
17 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Okay. Let's do
18 that again. Do I have a motion? We had a
19 motion from Commissioner Fitzsimons. We had a
20 second from Commissioner Ramos. All in favor,
21 please say aye.
22 ("Aye.")
23 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: All opposed?
24 Hearing none, motion carried.
25 (Motion passes.)
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1 "The Executive Director is authorized to take
2 all necessary steps to accept approximately
3 101.9 acres in Harris County as a addition to
4 the Sheldon Lake State Park as recommended in
5 the United States District Court for the
6 Southern District of Texas, Houston Division;
7 Cause No. H-013171; U.S. and the State of Texas
8 v. Equilon Pipeline Company, LLC, f/d/b/a
9 Texaco Pipeline, Inc. and Colonial Pipeline
10 Co."
11 AGENDA ITEM NO. 19: ACTION - LAND
12 ACQUISITION-BEXAR COUNTY
13 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Agenda Item No. 18
14 is not on here today. It's been pulled, so we
15 move on to Agenda Item No. 19, Land
16 Acquisition, Bexar County. Jeff Francell,
17 would you please make your presentation.
18 MR. FRANCELL: Madame Chairman,
19 members of the Commission, I'm Jeff Francell.
20 I'm here to talk today about a land acquisition
21 item, Government Canyon State Natural Area. We
22 have some visitors here; Susan Craine from City
23 of San Antonio and Trey Cooksey from Government
24 Canyon State Natural Area staff, as well as
25 Paige Cooper from the Trust Republic Land.
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1 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Glad to have you
2 here.
3 MR. FRANCELL: Government Canyon is
4 in northwest Bexar County near Helotes. It is
5 a fairly large state natural area which opens
6 officially to the public next year, so just
7 over 7,000 acres, close to downtown
8 San Antonio, with a lot of recreation potential
9 and also conservation value.
10 The reason that we're here today is
11 because of a proposition that the City of
12 San Antonio that passed in May of 2000. I've
13 got a little bit of a typo up there.
14 Ms. Craine reminded me that the Proposition 3
15 sales tax rate is actually an eighth of a cent,
16 which raised $45 million for protecting the
17 Edwards Aquifer recharge and providing public
18 access to the outdoors in Bexar County. To
19 date, 3500 acres have been acquired and about
20 23 million has been expended.
21 This is a map of the park. There's
22 two tracks in purple that the City of
23 San Antonio has recently purchased. The
24 property we're talking about today is in green.
25 It's the 1160-acre -- part of the 1160 -- or
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1 part of the larger Kallison Ranch. It's about
2 1160 acres.
3 The purchase price for the property
4 would be 5.8 million. About three quarters of
5 the property are on the recharge zone for the
6 Edwards Aquifer, and the property has
7 significant habitat value. A very positive
8 aspect of this acquisition is that it buffers
9 the new visitor's center currently being
10 constructed.
11 The acquisition will involve
12 purchasing the property. And you actually have
13 the wrong presentation loaded. The other one
14 has the motion on it. The acquisition will
15 involve selling a conservation easement for the
16 City of San Antonio for half the purchase
17 price.
18 And the motion that I'd ask you to
19 consider today is to allow Texas Parks and
20 Wildlife to acquire the Kallison property and
21 subsequently sell the conservation easement to
22 the City of San Antonio.
23 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Are there any
24 questions of Mr. Francell? There is no one
25 signed up to sign on this item. Commissioner
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1 Fitzsimons?
2 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Madame
3 Chair, I want to thank you, Jeff, for your hard
4 work. The Government Canyon Project is
5 something I've been watching since the RTC
6 days. And you've done a great job and you're
7 to be commended. And thank you to the City of
8 San Antonio for the great work you've done on
9 the conservation.
10 MR. FRANCELL: Thank you.
11 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: I have a comment to
12 make, as well. Likewise, congratulations. And
13 I'm glad to have our friends from Government
14 Canyon here today. I was recently there and
15 got to see firsthand what a precious resource
16 and treasure this is already. I also want to
17 comment that Government Canyon is a model, I
18 think, for us. It is close to a densely
19 populated urban area that provides tremendous
20 recreation opportunity, education and outreach
21 opportunity, as well as helping us preserve
22 precious natural resource, mainly the Edwards
23 Aquifer. Thank you-all very much.
24 Are there any other questions? Do I
25 have a motion?
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1 COMMISSIONER WATSON: So moved.
2 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Second?
3 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Second.
4 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: All in favor,
5 please say aye.
6 ("Aye.")
7 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Opposed? Hearing
8 none, motion carries.
9 (Motion passes.)
10 "The Executive Director is authorized to take
11 all necessary steps to acquire the 1160 acre
12 Kallison Ranch from the Trust for Public Land
13 as an addition to Government Canyon State
14 Natural Area. The Executive Director is also
15 authorized to sell a conservation easement on
16 the property to the City of San Antonio."
17 AGENDA ITEM NO. 20: ACTION - LAND ACQUISITION -
18 BRAZORIA COUNTY
19 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Agenda Item No. 20,
20 Land Acquisition, Brazoria County,
21 Mr. Francell.
22 MR. FRANCELL: Thank you. This is a
23 new project for Texas Parks and Wildlife, the
24 Levi Jordan Plantation. We're talking today
25 about a small acquisition adjacent to the
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179
1 plantation property. Levi Jordan Plantation is
2 in Brazoria County. It's a historical site and
3 was approved with a Proposition 8, ballot
4 initiative. It has significant archaeological
5 and historical value. And is the first new
6 state historic site since 1987. The property
7 that we're talking about today is 22 acres
8 that's located adjacent to a county road in
9 Brazoria County, as well as the Levi Jordan
10 Plantation.
11 The property is heavily wooded, it's
12 currently for sale. Parks and Wildlife
13 currently has a contract on the property,
14 subject to your approval. And there's 3,000
15 feet of frontage on both county roads.
16 The motion is to authorize the
17 executive director to take the necessary steps
18 to acquire the 22 acres as part of the Levi
19 Jordan Plantation historic site.
20 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Are there any
21 questions for Mr. Francell from the Commission?
22 Do I have a motion?
23 COMMISSIONER WATSON: So moved.
24 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: I have a motion by
25 Commissioner Watson, a second by Commissioner
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1 Angelo. All in favor?
2 ("Aye.")
3 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Opposed? Hearing
4 none, motion carries. Thank you.
5 (Motion passes.)
6 "The Executive Director is authorized to take
7 all necessary steps to acquire the 22 acre
8 Graham property as an addition to the Levi
9 Jordan Plantation Historical Site."
10 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Mr. Cook, is there
11 any other business to come before this
12 commission today?
13 MR. COOK: No, ma'am, there is not.
14 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: I declare ourselves
15 adjourned. Thank you very much.
16 *-*-*-*-*
17 (MEETING ADJOURNED.)
18 *-*-*-*-*
19
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21
22
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1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
2 STATE OF TEXAS )
3 COUNTY OF TRAVIS )
4 I, MELODY RENEE DeYOUNG, a
5 Certified Court Reporter in and for the State
6 of Texas, do hereby certify that the above and
7 foregoing 180 pages constitute a full, true and
8 correct transcript of the minutes of the Texas
9 Parks and Wildlife Commission on APRIL 4, 2002,
10 in the commission hearing room of the Texas
11 Parks and Wildlife Headquarters Complex,
12 Austin, Travis County, Texas.
13 I FURTHER CERTIFY that a
14 stenographic record was made by me a the time
15 of the public meeting and said stenographic
16 notes were thereafter reduced to computerized
17 transcription under my supervision and control.
18 WITNESS MY HAND this the 14th day
19 of May, 2001.
20
21
MELODY RENEE DeYOUNG, RPR, CSR NO.
22 3226
Expiration Date: 12-31-02
23 3101 Bee Caves Road
Centre II, Suite 220
24 Austin, Texas 78746
(512) 328-5557
25
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182
1 APPROVED this the ____ day of ___________ 2002.
2
3
Katharine Armstrong Idsal, Chairman
4
5
Ernest Angelo, Jr, Vice Chairman
6
7
John Avila, Jr., Member
8
9
Joseph B. C. Fitzsimons, Member
10
11
Alvin L. Henry, Member
12
13
Philip Montgomery, III, Member
14
15
Donato D. Ramos, Member
16
17
Kelly W. Rising, M.D., Member
18
19
Mark E. Watson, Jr., Member
20
21
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