Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission
Public Hearing

May 30, 2002

Commission Hearing Room
Texas Parks & Wildlife Department Headquarters Complex
4200 Smith School Road
Austin, TX 78744


             6             BE IT REMEMBERED that heretofore on the 

             7    30TH day of MAY 2002, there came on to be heard 

             8    matters under the regulatory authority of the 

             9    Parks and Wildlife Commission of Texas, in the 

            10    commission hearing room of the Texas Parks and 

            11    Wildlife Headquarters complex, Austin, Travis 

            12    County, Texas, beginning at 9:01 a.m., to wit:


            16    Katharine Armstrong Idsal, San Antonio, Texas, 
            17    Ernest Angelo, Jr., Vice Chairman, Midland, Texas
                  John Avila, Jr., Fort Worth, Texas 
            18    Joseph B.C. Fitzsimons, San Antonio, Texas
                  Alvin L. Henry, Houston, Texas  
            19    Philip Montgomery, III, Dallas, Texas
                  Donato D. Ramos, Laredo, Texas
            20    Kelly W. Rising, M.D., Beaumont, Texas
                  Mark E. Watson, Jr., San Antonio, Texas
            23       Robert L. Cook, Executive Director, and other 
                  personnel of the Parks and Wildlife Department.



             1    OTHER APPEARANCES:


             3    Ellis Gilleland

             4    "Texas Animals"

             5    P.O. Box 9001

             6    Austin, Texas  78760


             8    Kirby Brown

             9    Texas Wildlife Association

            10    401 Isom Road, Ste 237

            11    San Antonio, Texas  78216


            13    Karl Kinsel

            14    TDA

            15    5413 Bandera, Ste 405

            16    San Antonio, Texas  78238


            18    Roger Soape

            19    450 Gears Road, Suite 780

            20    Houston, Texas  77067







             1                       MAY 30, 2002


             3                     MORNING SESSION: 

             4                         *-*-*-*-*

             5                      PUBLIC HEARING

             6                         *-*-*-*-*



             9                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Greetings everyone.  

            10    The meeting is called to order.  Before proceeding 

            11    with any business, I believe Mr. Cook has a 

            12    statement to make.

            13                  MR. COOK:  Madam Chairman, 

            14    Commissioners, a public notice of this meeting 

            15    containing all items on the proposed agenda has 

            16    been filed in the office of the Secretary of State 

            17    as required by Chapter 551 of the Government Code, 

            18    referred to as the Open Meetings Law.  I would 

            19    like for this action to be noted in the official 

            20    record of this meeting.

            21                  So that everyone will have a chance 

            22    to address the Commission in an orderly fashion, 

            23    the following ground rules will be followed during 

            24    our meeting today.  The Chairman is in charge of 

            25    the meeting.  And by law, it is her duty to 


             1    preserve order, direct the order of the hearing, 

             2    and recognize persons to be heard.  I will be 

             3    assisting the Chairman today as sergeant-at-arms 

             4    of we have sign-up cards for everyone wishing to 

             5    speak out here at the desk.  So if you have 

             6    comments that you want to make, you need to get 

             7    signed up on a sign-up card and get that turned in 

             8    up here.

             9                  The Chairman will call names from 

            10    those cards one at a time.  She will also -- when 

            11    she calls a person up, she will name the next 

            12    person to be kind of on-deck. 

            13                  Each person will be allowed to speak 

            14    from the podium one at a time.  When your name is 

            15    called, please come to the podium, state your name 

            16    and who you represent, if anyone other than 

            17    yourself.  Then state your position on the agenda 

            18    item under consideration and add supporting facts 

            19    that will help the Commission understand your 

            20    concern.  Please limit your remarks to the 

            21    specific agenda item under consideration.  Each 

            22    person who wants to address the Commission will 

            23    have three minutes to speak.  I will keep track of 

            24    the time and notify you when your three minutes is 

            25    up with this little handy dandy light right here.  


             1    When your time is up, please resume your seat so 

             2    that others may speak.  Your time may be extended 

             3    if a commissioner has a question for you.  If the 

             4    Commission -- Commissioners ask a question or 

             5    discuss something among themselves, that time will 

             6    not be counted against you.  Statements that are 

             7    merely argumentative or critical of others will 

             8    not be tolerated.  There is a microphone at the 

             9    podium, so it is not necessary to raise your 

            10    voice.  I also ask that you show proper respect 

            11    for the Commissioners as well as the other members 

            12    of the audience.  You will not be recognized out 

            13    of turn by raising your hand or interrupting 

            14    others.  Disruptive or offensive behavior will be 

            15    grounds for immediate ejection from the meeting.  

            16    If you would like to submit written materials to 

            17    the Commission, please give them to Ms. Lori 

            18    Estrada, who is seated here to my right.  

            19    Ms. Estrada will pass the written materials out to 

            20    the Commission.  Thank you. 

            21                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Thank you, 

            22    Mr. Cook.  Next is the approval of the minutes 

            23    which have already been distributed. 

            24                  VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO:  Madam 

            25    Chairman, I've submitted to Lori some minor 


             1    corrections and with those corrections, I'd move 

             2    approval of the minutes. 

             3                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Move approval by 

             4    Commissioner Angelo.  Do I have a second? 

             5                  COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  I'll second. 

             6                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  A second by 

             7    Commissioner Ramos.  All in favor? 

             8                  ("Aye.")

             9                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  All opposed?  

            10    Motion carried. 

            11                   (Motion passed unanimously.)

            12                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Next is the 

            13    acceptance of gifts which have also been 

            14    distributed.  Is there a motion for approval? 

            15                  COMMISSIONER AVILA:  So moved.

            16                  COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  Second.

            17                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  All in favor? 

            18                  ("Aye.")

            19                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  All opposed?  

            20    Hearing none, motion carries. 

            21                  (Motion passed unanimously.)


            23              TPWD DONATIONS OF $500 OR MORE

            24        (Donors are listed in the following order:

            25         Donor; Description; Purpose of Donation)



             2    (1)  Kerr McGee Oil and Gas Corp, CASH, Artificial 
                       Reef Program.
             3    (2)  Ocean Energy Corp, CASH, Artificial Reef 
             4    (3)  Apache Oil Corp, CASH, Artificial Reef  
             5    (4)  UNOCAL, CASH, Artificial Reef Program.
                  (5)  Kerr McGee Oil and Gas Corp, CASH, Artificial 
             6         Reef Program.
                  (6)  Global Industries Offshore, LLC, CASH, 
             7         Artificial Reef Program.
                  (7)  Friends Group of Choke Canyon, Equipment, 
             8         Choke Canyon SP.
                  (8)  Realtree, CASH, Great TexasBirding Classic.
             9    (9)  Fermata, Inc., CASH, Great Texas Birding 
            10    (10)  Texas Wildlife Association, CASH, Great 
                        Texas Birding Classic.
            11    (11)  Weslaco Area COC, CASH, Great Texas Birding 
            12    (12)  City of Texas City, CASH, Great Texas 
                        Birding Classic.
            13    (13)  City of Bay City, CASH, Great Texas Birding 
            14    (14)  Coastal Conservation Association, Equipment, 
                        Environmental Crimes.
            15    (15)  NIBCO, Brass Steam Valves, Texas State 
            16    (16)  Mr. David Kline, Stone Bench, Perdenales 
                        Falls SP.
            17    (17)  Friends of Pedernales Falls SP, Radios, 
                        Pedernales Falls SP.
            18    (18)  Ducks Unlimited of Texas, CASH, Conservation 
                        License Plate.
            19    (19)  Friends of Monument Hill SP, Light 
                        Infrastructure, Dawson/Mier Tomb.
            20    (20)  Boat Ed., CASH, Boater Education.
                  (21)  National Skeet Shooting Assn. And National 
            21          Sporting Clays Assn., CASH, Hunter Education 
                        - Youth Shooting.
            22    (22)  University of Texas Pan American Foundation, 
                        CASH, Hunter Education.
            23    (23)  Coastal Conservation Association, Night 
                        Vision Monocular, Region IV Game Wardens.
            24    (24)  Mr. Rick Behrend, CASH, Law Enforcement.
                  (25)  Mr. Chuck Lobb, Generator, Matagorda Island 
            25          SP.
                  (26)  Texas Wildlife Association, Ammunition, 


             1          Youth Shooting Event on Chaparral.
             2                           TOTAL:     1,267,880.33



             5                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Next are the 

             6    retirement certificates and service awards.  

             7    Mr. Cook, would you please make the presentations. 

             8                  MR. COOK:  Thank you, Madam 

             9    Chairman.  If you'll join me down front.

            10                  The first person that we have to 

            11    honor here today is -- with a retirement 

            12    certificate is a gentleman that many of us know 

            13    and have known well for a long time.  Kirby Brown 

            14    was in the wildlife division for 24 years, served 

            15    as a manager for five here in Austin in the 

            16    headquarters.  Kirby was a 1977 graduate of Texas 

            17    A&M university with a master's in wildlife science 

            18    and he retired from the Texas Parks and Wildlife 

            19    Department after 24 years of service.  In that 

            20    time, he served as a biologist on the statewide 

            21    Habitat Mapping Project, a district biologist in 

            22    Central Texas, area manager of the J.D. Murphree  

            23    Wildlife Management Area, program director for our 

            24    Private Lands Enhancement and Public Hunting 

            25    program.  And his last position with the agency 


             1    was as Chief of the Private Lands and Habitat 

             2    Branch.

             3                  While involved in those programs, 

             4    Kirby did a lot of work with the technical 

             5    assistance program with private landowners, our 

             6    cowbird trapping programs, the landowner incentive 

             7    programs, youth hunting, and our conservation 

             8    easement and land trust programs. 

             9                  Programs that were initiated during 

            10    Kirby's tenure include the "Making Tracks 

            11    Landowner Newsletter," our Private Lands Advisory 

            12    Board, and our Lone Star Land Steward Awards, 

            13    which you folks were all in attendance last night 

            14    and we all enjoyed very much. 

            15                  Kirby helped us in many different 

            16    ways.  One of the ways he worked with us also 

            17    through his legislative involvement including some 

            18    significant accomplishments there; the Wildlife 

            19    Management Tax Valuation and Proposition 11, 

            20    landowner liability concerns, and the 

            21    confidentiality of wildlife management plans. 

            22                  Kirby has left us.  We miss him.  He 

            23    is now serving as executive director of the Texas 

            24    Wildlife Association.  We wish him the best of 

            25    luck, of course.  Kirby Brown. 


             1                  (Photographs taken; applause.) 

             2                  MR. COOK:  I've got a feeling we'll 

             3    be seeing a lot of Kirby Brown, and I hope so.  

             4    He's a good friend and a good conservationist. 

             5                  There are several people in our 

             6    service awards today that I know well and mean a 

             7    lot to this agency, the first of which we'll have 

             8    to be a little tolerant of because he had a little 

             9    accident and fell out of a tree, as his wife says.  

            10    So he's hobbling around a little bit.  But this is 

            11    a gentleman I want you all to know something 

            12    about.  Bob Carroll is a wildlife biologist.  He's 

            13    a manager II in La Grange, Texas.  He's been with 

            14    the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department 35 years.  

            15    And I hope he has no intention of leaving us 

            16    anytime soon.  Bob first worked with TPWD as a 

            17    summer student in 1965 in Llano County under the 

            18    supervision of Jack Ward Thomas.  And that summer, 

            19    he set his goal to become a wildlife biologist for 

            20    Texas Parks and Wildlife Department.  He began his 

            21    career with TPWD in April of 1997 [sic] as a field 

            22    biologist on the Post Oak Savannah District around 

            23    Columbus.  In 1976, Bob was promoted to district 

            24    leader of the 21 county Edwards Plateau Regulatory 

            25    District and was stationed in Kerrville.  In 1980, 


             1    he transferred back to the Post Oak Savannah 

             2    District and has served as a district leader for 

             3    the past 22 years in La Grange.  Bob has had a 

             4    tremendous impact and has taken great pride in his 

             5    work.  His involvement and achievements with the 

             6    white-tailed deer program in Texas -- had many 

             7    involvement and achievements in the white-tailed 

             8    deer program in Texas over the past 35 years.  Bob 

             9    has been a good wildlife biologist, a very 

            10    professional person in his jobs, his duties.  He's 

            11    conducted a number of excellent research projects.  

            12    One of the things that I am most proud of him for 

            13    is the young people that he has hired, trained, 

            14    and brought up.  And I know that he is proud of 

            15    that, also.  He's an old friend, obviously, of 

            16    mine.  And if you need, you know, a third-hand in 

            17    a 42 game, he's a pretty fair 42 player.  Bob 

            18    Carroll. 

            19                  (Photographs taken; applause.) 

            20                  MR. COOK:  I complimented him on his 

            21    shoes this morning.

            22                  Gary Tarpley has been in the law 

            23    enforcement division of the Texas Parks and 

            24    Wildlife Department 35 years.  He's currently 

            25    commander at Fort Worth, Texas.  Gary Tarpley 


             1    began his meritorious service with the Texas Parks 

             2    and Wildlife Department when he was accepted into 

             3    the 19th Texas Game Warden Academy in 1966.  Upon 

             4    completion at the Academy in February 1967, he was 

             5    assigned to Caldwell County where he served for 

             6    two years.  In 1969, Gary was transferred to 

             7    Dallas County for a three-year period.  In 1972, 

             8    he transferred to Rockwall County where he was 

             9    instrumental in the abolishment of Rough Fish 

            10    Contracts in Texas.  After his extensive 

            11    undercover work, his findings were presented to 

            12    the Commission, who then abolished that program.  

            13    In 1983, Gary was promoted to lieutenant in the 

            14    Fort Worth Regional Office until 1993, when he was 

            15    promoted to his present position as Regional 

            16    Major.

            17                  In April of 1993, Gary received the 

            18    National Water Safety Congress Award for 

            19    implementing the first BWI task force.  Gary 

            20    Tarpley, law enforcement division, Fort Worth, 

            21    Texas. 

            22                  (Photographs taken; applause.) 

            23                  MR. COOK:  Another person that I 

            24    know well, Betty Jo Johnson, staff services 

            25    officer, state parks division in La Porte, Texas 


             1    has 30 years of service with the Texas Parks and 

             2    Wildlife Department.  Betty Jo Johnson began her 

             3    employment with Texas Parks and Wildlife 

             4    Department in March of 1972 in the typing pool for 

             5    the finance division.  She was soon promoted to 

             6    secretary for the accounting branch.  In July 

             7    1981, Betty transferred to the San Jacinto 

             8    Battleground Historical Park.  In January 1984, 

             9    she was promoted to the position of regional 

            10    secretary/office manager for State Parks Regional 

            11    Office in La Porte.  She is currently the staff 

            12    services officer/regional administrative 

            13    specialist at La Porte where she remains today.  

            14    Betty Jo Johnson, State Parks Division, 30 years. 

            15                  (Photographs taken; applause.)

            16                  MR. COOK:  Robert L. Singleton, Jr., 

            17    known as Bob to all of us who know him and know 

            18    him well, manager IV in the Infrastructure 

            19    Division here in Austin, Texas has 30 years of 

            20    service with the Texas Parks and Wildlife 

            21    Department.  He began his career with TPWD in 

            22    March 1972 when the Master Planning Program was 

            23    under the Parks Division.  As a licensed 

            24    architect, he has served in various positions over 

            25    the years, such as park planner, project manager, 


             1    and acting head of the master planning program.  

             2    Bob has been responsible for preparing 

             3    environmentally sensitive park development plans 

             4    for numerous State Parks during his 30-year 

             5    tenure, including Texas State Railroad, Mustang 

             6    Island, Guadalupe River, Brazos Bend, Caprock 

             7    Canyons, Lake Ray Roberts, Matagorda Island, Choke 

             8    Canyon, Franklin Mountains, Big Bend Ranch and 

             9    many others.  Bob is currently the TxDOT program 

            10    coordinator under Infrastructure.  The TxDOT 

            11    program is an annual $5 million program funded to 

            12    develop and maintain the road and parking system 

            13    for our State Parks and wildlife management areas 

            14    across the state.  Bob Singleton, 30 years of 

            15    service, Infrastructure Division. 

            16                  (Photographs taken; applause.)

            17                  MR. COOK:  Joe Warren is with the 

            18    Inland Fisheries Division.  He's a manager V in 

            19    Electra, Texas.  He's been with the Texas Parks 

            20    and Wildlife Department 30 years.  Joe began his 

            21    career in March 1972 at the Jasper State Fish 

            22    Hatchery as a maintenance worker.  He worked as a 

            23    fish and wildlife technician at Sheldon and 

            24    Louisville state fish hatcheries before returning 

            25    to Jasper as a hatchery manager in 1976.  In 1981, 


             1    he moved to the Wichita Falls area to manage the 

             2    Dundee State Fish Hatchery.  He was promoted in 

             3    1986 to regional director and now manages two 

             4    hatcheries and the statewide production programs 

             5    for striped bass, hybrid striped bass, catfish, 

             6    sunfish, walleye, and saugeye.  He has cultured 

             7    over 17 species of fish while in the hatchery 

             8    system.  Joe is well-known and respected 

             9    throughout the hatchery world and has made 

            10    numerous presentations at regional, national, and 

            11    international meetings dealing with fish culture.  

            12    Joe Warren, Inland Fisheries Division, 30 years.

            13                  (Photographs taken; applause.)

            14                  MR. COOK:  Jerry Bartel is in the 

            15    State Parks Division.  He has 25 years of service.  

            16    He's manager II at Needville, Texas.  Jerry began 

            17    his career at Lake Brownwood State Park as a 

            18    seasonal worker in March 1977.  After his seasonal 

            19    employment, he was hired as a Park Ranger I and 

            20    promoted through the ranks to Park Superintendent 

            21    I-Assistant Park Manager.  He was commissioned as 

            22    a park peace officer in 1981 and worked at Lake 

            23    Somerville-Nails Creek as a Park Manager.  In 

            24    1990, he became the Park Ranger III-Park Manager 

            25    at Brazos Bend State Park where he remains today.


             1                  I saw Jerry back there a while ago 

             2    and I had a chance to drop by Brazos Bend a couple 

             3    of weeks ago one afternoon.  I wasn't anticipating 

             4    being there and Jerry was out-of-pocket and didn't 

             5    get to see him.  But when I go into a park, I 

             6    always kind of look at their back door.  And I can 

             7    tell you a lot about a park manager by looking at 

             8    his back door.  And his maintenance shop, his 

             9    storage area, his barn, his facilities kind of on 

            10    that little road that says no entry, tip-top, spic 

            11    and span, well-organized, and very clean.  Jerry 

            12    Bartel, 25 years of service. 

            13                  (Photographs taken; applause.)

            14                  MR. COOK:  Ol' Jerry will probably 

            15    have them guys out there scrubbing that back door 

            16    now.

            17                  Somebody said something to me one 

            18    day about Buddy Turner and I tried to call him on 

            19    the phone and I tried to look up his phone number 

            20    and I couldn't find it.  And it's under Lawson 

            21    Turner.  And we all know him as Buddy Turner in 

            22    the Law Enforcement Division.  He's got 25 years 

            23    of service, assistant commander here in Austin, 

            24    Texas.  Buddy Turner graduated from the Texas Game 

            25    Warden Academy in College Station in January of 


             1    1972.  In the following 30 years, he has served as 

             2    a field game warden, game warden academy training 

             3    instructor, undercover operative and environmental 

             4    crimes enforcement officer.  He has also taken 

             5    some time away from the Department to return to 

             6    school.  He also served two terms as the president 

             7    of Texas Game Warden Association.  Presently, 

             8    Buddy serves as assistant chief of wildlife 

             9    enforcement here at the Austin headquarters.  With 

            10    25 years of service, L.D.  "Buddy" Turner.

            11                  (Photographs taken; applause.)

            12                  MR. COOK:  Bruce Biedermann with the 

            13    Law Enforcement Division at Lubbock, Captain, with 

            14    20 years of service.  Bruce started with TPWD in 

            15    1982 as a fish and wildlife technician (boat mate) 

            16    aboard the offshore patrol boat Captain Williams 

            17    out of Brownsville, Texas.  He obtained a boat 

            18    captain's license while in that position.  In 

            19    January of 1985, he attended the Game Warden 

            20    Academy.  His first duty assignment as a game 

            21    warden was in Willacy County in the town of Port 

            22    Mansfield.  He remained at that station for 16 

            23    years.  During his stay there, he saw the town and 

            24    that community transition from a commercial 

            25    fishing area, which, of course, sometimes for a 


             1    game warden is a real test of skills and 

             2    abilities, into a sport fishing hotspot on the 

             3    Texas coast that welcomed the presence of a Texas 

             4    Parks and Wildlife Department game warden.  In 

             5    1992, he attended the marine law enforcement 

             6    training program at the Federal Law Enforcement 

             7    Training Center in Georgia and received the 

             8    honored graduate position for that class.  In 

             9    March of 2000, Bruce transferred to Brewster 

            10    County in the town of Alpine.  Two months later, 

            11    in May of the year 2000, he received a promotion 

            12    to Captain Game Warden in Region VI, District II, 

            13    where he currently supervises 12 game wardens that 

            14    cover 24 counties.  Bruce is also in our natural 

            15    leader program.  Bruce Biedermann, Law Enforcement 

            16    Division, with 20 years of service. 

            17                  (Photographs taken; applause.)

            18                  MR. COOK:  Someone that we all know 

            19    here in Austin and have all worked with and all 

            20    enjoy, Emily Carter in the Communication Division 

            21    with 20 years of service is a program 

            22    administrator IV here in Austin.  Emily joined 

            23    TPWD in 1982 as a seasonal employee on the 

            24    archeological crew at Fanthorp Inn State Historic 

            25    Site.  She then accepted a full-time position 


             1    researching the Texas Outdoor Recreation Plan.  As 

             2    part of the 1985 planning team for the Texas 

             3    Sesquicentennial Celebration, her writing skills 

             4    were put to work and her career shifted again to 

             5    state park promotions.  Now, as manager of the 

             6    Texas Conservation Passport Program, she writes, 

             7    edits, publishes the quarterly Passport Journal.  

             8    Environmental values have always been at the 

             9    center of her professional work.  Emily Carter, 

            10    Communication Division, with 20 years of service. 

            11                  (Photographs taken; applause.)

            12                  MR. COOK:  Jo Currie with the State 

            13    Park Divisions is also being recognized for 20 

            14    years of service.  Jo began her career with Texas 

            15    Parks and Wildlife in April 1982 as a seasonal 

            16    worker III at the Rusk-Palestine State Park, and a 

            17    month later she game a classified employee.  

            18    Having managed the Rusk City Park approximately 

            19    one year, she became the first state employee of 

            20    Rusk-Palestine State Park.  She is currently the 

            21    administrative technician III there and has 

            22    remained at the park throughout her career.  She 

            23    comes from a TPWD family, which includes her late 

            24    husband, game warden Donald R. Currie, and her son 

            25    Donald, who is a Ranger III at the Texas State 


             1    Railroad.  She is trained, broke in, put up with, 

             2    however you want to say it, four different park 

             3    managers and enjoys all the friendships along the 

             4    way and the thousands of park visitors.  A valued 

             5    employee, Jo Currie, State Parks Division, 20 

             6    years of service, Rusk, Texas. 

             7                  (Photographs taken; applause.)

             8                  MR. COOK:  Charles D. Simmons in the 

             9    State Parks Division is being recognized for 20 

            10    years of service with the Texas Parks and Wildlife 

            11    Department.  Charles began his employment with 

            12    TPWD at Palo Duro Canyon State Park as a park 

            13    ranger I in April of 1982, cleaning rest rooms, 

            14    mowing, and hauling trash.  He was later promoted 

            15    to park ranger II and lead ranger.  In later 

            16    years, he was promoted to park ranger 

            17    III/maintenance mechanic, the position that he 

            18    currently holds.  His entire TPWD has been spent 

            19    at Palo Duro Canyon State Park, which he loves 

            20    dearly.  In the past 20 years, he has worked to 

            21    conserve this great piece of Texas for the 

            22    enjoyment of future generations.  Through the 

            23    years, he has assisted with the task of controlled 

            24    burns that give the Canyon a new, fresh start.  He 

            25    has assisted in search and rescue and flash flood 


             1    emergencies.  He has helped with the Randall 

             2    County Trustee Program and believes he has made an 

             3    impact in trusting the trustees' outlook at life 

             4    for a better future.  Charles Simmons, State Parks 

             5    Division, 20 years of service. 

             6                  (Photographs taken; applause.)

             7                  MR. COOK:  Madam Chairman, I believe 

             8    that concludes that segment of our program.  Next 

             9    on our agenda is a presentation to the Commission 

            10    from the Offshore Technology Conference.  In 1989, 

            11    the Texas Legislature enacted the Artificial Reef 

            12    Act mandating the Department to promote, develop, 

            13    maintain, monitor, and enhance the artificial reef 

            14    potential of Texas.  Since its official beginnings 

            15    in 1990, the heart of the Department's Artificial 

            16    Reef Program has been "Rigs to Reef."  Under "Rigs 

            17    to Reefs," oil companies can donate their obsolete 

            18    oil and gas platforms to the Department for 

            19    deployment as artificial reefs rather than having 

            20    to remove them from the Gulf of Mexico and haul 

            21    them to land as scrap.  The companies also agreed 

            22    to donate one-half of their realized savings to 

            23    the program's artificial reef fund. 

            24                  "Rigs to Reefs" is a classic win-win 

            25    situation.  Not only to do the oil companies save 


             1    money, but the citizens of Texas reap the benefits 

             2    of the enhanced habitat provided by the sunken oil 

             3    platforms.  The program has become a model of 

             4    partnership and involves the Department, the 

             5    federal government, and private industry.  Since 

             6    1990, the Artificial Reef Program has worked with 

             7    26 different oil and gas companies to deploy 54 

             8    oil and gas structures in over 30 permitted sites 

             9    throughout the Gulf of Mexico.

            10                  As proud as we are of our own 

            11    programs, it is always gratifying to know that 

            12    others, especially from the private sector, 

            13    recognize and value the contributions that we 

            14    make.

            15                  The Offshore Technology Conference 

            16    is an industry and trade show that provides a 

            17    professional platform for discussing current 

            18    issues and showcasing breakthrough technologies.  

            19    It is made up of many of the private oil and gas 

            20    businesses that we have partnered with in creating 

            21    these artificial reefs.

            22                  Here today to make a special 

            23    presentation to the Parks and Wildlife Commission 

            24    is the chairman of OTC, Mr. Charlie Richards.  

            25    Mr. Richards? 


             1                  MR. RICHARDS:  Thank you, Bob.  Good 

             2    morning.  On May the 7th in Houston, the Offshore 

             3    Technology Conference announced the award of a 

             4    special citation, which is reserved for 

             5    outstanding accomplishments and significant 

             6    contributions to the offshore community.  I am 

             7    proud, as a fourth generation Texan and chairman 

             8    of Offshore Technology Conference, to be here this 

             9    morning to present this special citation to the 

            10    Texas Parks and Wildlife Department.  This 

            11    citation recognizes your leadership and the 

            12    recycling decommissioned offshore structures into 

            13    permanent artificial reefs that serve as a haven 

            14    for marine life and a destination for divers and 

            15    fishermen. 

            16                  Additionally, this citation is being 

            17    given for the significant contributions to and a 

            18    positive impact on the environment in the Gulf of 

            19    Mexico through the "Rigs to Reef" program.  To 

            20    accept this citation this morning, I'm going to 

            21    give this to the Commissioner, Ms. Katharine 

            22    Idsal.  Congratulations and thank you very much.

            23                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Thank you very 

            24    much.

            25                  (Photographs taken; applause.)


             1                  MR. COOK:  Thank you, Mr. Richards.  

             2    Concluding this part of the program, Madam 

             3    Chairman, last night we had a great event out at 

             4    the Omni Hotel, probably 300 -- I haven't heard a 

             5    final number, 300 or more folks attending in our 

             6    Land Stewards Award Program.  Very briefly, I want 

             7    to run through the winners and then we want to 

             8    show you a brief video that you -- you and the 

             9    audience -- a brief video of the statewide 

            10    winners. 

            11                  In the Cross Timbers Ecological area 

            12    we recognize a tract of land and the landowners in 

            13    each ecological, as you know.  In the Cross 

            14    Timbers and prairies ecological area, the winner 

            15    was a Fossil Canyon Ranch, 1889 acres in Bosque 

            16    County owned by Bob and Marge Schafer.  In the 

            17    Edwards Plateau, the winner was the Cherry Creek 

            18    Ranch, 5900 acres in Kerr County owned by Fred and 

            19    Paula Rush, Jonathan and Karen Letz.  In the Gulf 

            20    Prairies and Marshes region, the Runnells-Pierce 

            21    Ranch, 32,000 acres in Matagorda County owned by 

            22    John S. Runnells, II.  High plains, the winner was 

            23    the Calvin Lemon Farm, 440 acres in Lubbock County 

            24    owned by Calvin and Sandra Lemon.  In the Piney 

            25    Woods ecological area, the winner was Cook's 


             1    Branch Conservancy, a 5600-acre ranch in Matagorda 

             2    County owned by George Mitchell and family.  In 

             3    the Post Oaks Savannah, the winner was the 

             4    Greenwood Ranch, a 1788-acre ranch in Red River 

             5    County owned by Dr. J.W. Smith.  In the Rolling 

             6    Plains, the winner was the Mesquite Grove Ranch, 

             7    36,000 acres in Kent County owned by Buddy 

             8    Baldridge.  In the south Texas plains, the winner 

             9    was the El Tecolote Ranch, 2100 acres in Hidalgo 

            10    County owned by Phil and Karen Hunke.  The winner 

            11    in the Trans Pecos ecological area was the 

            12    Longfellow Ranch, 256,000 acres in Pecos County 

            13    owned by N. Malone Mitchell.  The winning Wildlife 

            14    Management Association was the Lee County Wildlife 

            15    Association, which is comprised of 382 different 

            16    landowners, totaling 91,908 acres.  Our corporate 

            17    winner was the ALCOA Sandow Mine, 31,000 acres in 

            18    Milam and Lee County.  The statewide winner was 

            19    the Womack Family Ranch in Victoria County, which 

            20    we'll show you this brief video.

            21                  (Video played at this time.)

            22                  MR. COOK:  Madam Chairman, 

            23    Commissioners, you know, I think that video tells 

            24    more than on the surface.  This gentleman and this 

            25    lady, Jess and Lou Womack, enjoy what they do.  


             1    They love it.  They love their property.  And it's 

             2    a classic example, I think, of what private 

             3    landowners in Texas are doing to conserve, manage, 

             4    protect habitat wildlife species of all varieties 

             5    on their land.  This program is a great program.  

             6    We appreciate your support for that program very 

             7    much.  It is obvious to staff, it is obvious to 

             8    the people that we honor.  Our staff has done a 

             9    great job with this program.  Our private lands 

            10    advisory committee has been an immense help in 

            11    this program.  But the real thanks, the real 

            12    appreciation, the real effort and output goes to 

            13    the private landowners of Texas that we honor.  

            14    Thank you. 

            15                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Thank you, Bob.

            16       AGENDA ITEM NO. 1: ACTION - APPROVAL OF AGENDA.

            17                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  The first order of 

            18    business is the approval of the agenda, which we 

            19    have before us.  Is there a motion for approval? 

            20                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  So moved.

            21                  COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  Second. 

            22                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  All in favor? 

            23                  ("Aye.")

            24                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Any opposed?  

            25    Hearing none, motion carries. 


             1                   (Motion passed unanimously.)



             4       N, AND Q.

             5                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  This brings us to 

             6    agenda item 2, action item, Legislative Rules 

             7    Review and Rulemaking, Chapter 65, Subchapter A, 

             8    N, and Q.  Dr. Cooke, will you please make your 

             9    presentation?

            10                  DR. COOKE:  Madam Chairman, my name 

            11    is Jerry Cooke, game branch chief of the Wildlife 

            12    Division.  Section 2001.039 of the Government Code 

            13    requires that all state agencies review minimally 

            14    every four years all of their regulations.  In 

            15    reviewing -- the purpose of the review, first of 

            16    all, is to determine if the original intent, the 

            17    original reason for the rule still existed.  Every 

            18    four years, the Commission will either readopt, 

            19    readopt with amendment, or repeal each regulation 

            20    in the book. 

            21                  In reviewing Chapter 65, we found 

            22    three rules in which the original justification is 

            23    unclear.  Specifically, these regulations produced 

            24    a closed season for game animals, game birds, and 

            25    fur-bearing animals on the state-owned riverbeds 


             1    of Dimmit, Uvalde, and Zavala Counties.  The 

             2    proposed amendment for these three rules would set 

             3    a date certain in which the effectiveness of the 

             4    rule would end.  And that date is September the 

             5    1st of 2003.

             6                  Also I'd like to point out one, 

             7    almost a housekeeping issue.  On Section 65.374, 

             8    you'll notice that the wording in that amendment 

             9    is not similar to the other two rules.  We're 

            10    going to recraft that portion so that they read 

            11    the same for each section.  And that's the 

            12    proposed amendment for you.

            13                  Staff recommends the following 

            14    motion: Texas Parks and Wildlife Department adopts 

            15    amendments to 31 TAC 65.9, 65.316 and 65.374 

            16    concerning closed seasons on state-owned riverbeds 

            17    of Dimmit, Uvalde, and Zavala Counties with 

            18    changes to the proposed text as published in the 

            19    April 26th, 2002 issue of the Texas Register.  If 

            20    you have any questions, I would be happy to try to 

            21    answer them for you. 

            22                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Is there any -- is 

            23    there no discussion by the Commission?  We have 

            24    one person signed up to speak, Ellis Gilleland.

            25                  MR. GILLELAND:  My name is Ellis 


             1    Gilleland.  I'm a private citizen.  I represent 

             2    myself and Texas Animals, which is an Internet 

             3    animal rights organization.  I have one -- a 

             4    one-page handout.  The one-page handout is for 

             5    Madam Chairman.  That's the only one I made 

             6    because really I'm here to ask for clarification.  

             7    No.  There's only one -- that goes to the 

             8    Chairman, please.  Yeah. 

             9                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Thank you, 

            10    Mr. GILLELAND. 

            11                  MR. GILLELAND:  I'm really asking 

            12    for clarification and I'm not testifying on the 

            13    three rules -- or actually there were six rules 

            14    published, ma'am, not three.  And that's what 

            15    caused a little bit of confusion, at least in my 

            16    mind.  It appears that the other three are going 

            17    to be piggy-backed onto the three which Jerry 

            18    presented to you.  So if that's not the intent, 

            19    you can tell me and I'll go away.  But the three 

            20    rules that are being piggy-backed onto these 

            21    three, that's Subchapter G, which is endangered 

            22    species, Subchapter N, migratory bird 

            23    proclamation, and Subchapter O, which is 

            24    commercial nongame.  And those are controversial, 

            25    extremely controversial as far as I'm concerned.  


             1    And I'd like to testify on them if they are being 

             2    piggy-backed.  If -- they were published in the 

             3    Texas Register and I've given you a copy of it.  

             4    They were published on the 3rd of May.

             5                  The April publication, what Jerry 

             6    gave you, the three rules are straight up and 

             7    above board.  But the other three in May that I 

             8    just read to you are controversial.  And I just 

             9    want to make -- put it here on the record that I'm 

            10    opposed to those three rules being piggy-backed in 

            11    secret onto these three that are straight up, if 

            12    that is what is going to happen.  So the ball is 

            13    in y'all's court. 

            14                  Are you going to pass six 

            15    subchapters or are you going to pass three?  

            16    Because you published six.  And I really -- I 

            17    really oppose the three that are being 

            18    piggy-backed because the endangered -- something 

            19    near and dear to my heart, endangered species, 

            20    white-winged doves, and nongame -- for example, 

            21    the nongame items, the list you're monitoring is 

            22    209 currently.  And you're saying we're going to 

            23    reduce it to 28.  I think that is terrible, to 

            24    reduce it from one-tenth of the animals we have in 

            25    the State.  We owe it to all, 100 percent animals.  


             1    There's nothing in your charter or your new 

             2    mission statement that says we protect and look 

             3    after one-tenth of the animals in Texas.  We look 

             4    after all.  We love all the Texas animals.  Thank 

             5    you. 

             6                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Thank you, 

             7    Mr. Gilleland.  Dr. Cooke, do you have any 

             8    comments or would you like to clarify and answer 

             9    the questions that Mr. Gilleland asked? 

            10                  DR. COOKE:  Members, the rule review 

            11    is a section-by-section issue.  It's not a 

            12    subchapter-by-subchapter issue.  We're only 

            13    discussing these three sections in this adoption. 

            14                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Thank you.  Do you 

            15    have any questions of Dr. Cooke or Mr. Gilleland?  

            16    Any comments by the other commissioners? 

            17                  VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO:  I would move 

            18    approval of the recommendation. 

            19                  COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  Second. 

            20                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  I have a motion by 

            21    Commissioner Angelo, a second by Commissioner 

            22    Ramos.  All in favor. 

            23                  ("Aye.")

            24                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  All opposed?  

            25    Hearing none, motion carries.


             1                  (Motion passes unanimously.)

             2    "The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission adopts 

             3    amendments to 31 TAC §§65.9, 65.316, and 65.374, 

             4    concerning closed seasons in the state-owned 

             5    riverbeds of Dimmit, Uvalde, and Zavala counties, 

             6    with changes to the proposed text as published in 

             7    the April 26, 2002 issue of the Texas Register (27 

             8    TexReg 3548)."


            10       AND HATCHERY UPDATE.

            11                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Next agenda item, 

            12    agenda item number 3 is a briefing, fish hatchery 

            13    status report, Mr. Phil Durocher, will you please 

            14    make your presentation?

            15    "(Whereupon a briefing was presented to the 

            16    Commission, the following proceedings were heard:)

            17                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  There is no public 

            18    testimony on the briefing item we just heard.



            21       MEASURES.

            22                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  The next agenda 

            23    item is number 4, an action item on cervid disease 

            24    issues.  Dr. Cooke is presenting. 

            25                  DR. COOKE:  Madam Chairman and 


             1    Members, my name is Jerry Cooke, game ranch chief 

             2    of the Wildlife Division presenting this item.

             3                  The Texas Parks and Wildlife Code 

             4    states that only deer that are in a healthy 

             5    condition may be sold and traded in this state 

             6    under the scientific breeder program.  In January, 

             7    we proposed rules that would define in a healthy 

             8    condition as being deer that came from facilities 

             9    that were participating in a monitoring program 

            10    for chronic wasting disease and tuberculosis with 

            11    the Texas Animal Health Commission.  Those rules 

            12    further tied to that definition the ability of 

            13    that breeder to sell, transport, except to a 

            14    veterinarian, or release any animals from that 

            15    facility.  At your April commission meeting, you 

            16    postponed action on that item to allow the 

            17    scientific breeder permit holders the opportunity 

            18    to enter voluntarily into such a monitoring 

            19    program with the Animal Health Commission.  I 

            20    cannot really add to the testimony that was 

            21    presented to the regulations committee yesterday, 

            22    so I won't try.

            23                  Basically your actions today comes 

            24    down to one of two options, in my opinion.  Staff 

            25    recommends that should the voluntary testing and 


             1    monitoring program be considered inadequate by 

             2    this commission, that you adopt the following 

             3    motion: Texas Parks and Wildlife Department adopts 

             4    31 TAC 65.601 and 65.611 concerning cervid 

             5    diseases in the scientific breeder proclamation 

             6    with changes to the proposed text as published in 

             7    the March 1, 2002 issue of the Texas Register, 

             8    which is 27 text reg 1463. 

             9                  If, however, you consider that the 

            10    voluntary effort to this point has been adequate, 

            11    then staff recommends that you postpone action on 

            12    such a motion and that staff further broaden your 

            13    flexibility by withdrawing the current published 

            14    text in the Register and republishing it, which 

            15    will refresh your six-month window on taking 

            16    action of this item.  If you have any questions, 

            17    I'd be more than happy to try to answer them. 

            18                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Commissioner 

            19    Fitzsimons? 

            20                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  Jerry, 

            21    help me with the procedurals here a second. 

            22                  DR. COOKE:  Okay. 

            23                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  The -- if 

            24    we postpone and republish and, as you say, refresh 

            25    that six months and we get to August and the 


             1    progress is not adequate, then we cannot take 

             2    action of adopting the healthy condition 

             3    definition until --

             4                  DR. COOKE:  No.  You can at the 

             5    August meeting. 

             6                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  At the 

             7    August meeting?

             8                  DR. COOKE:  Under the current 

             9    publication, you could take action in August.  But 

            10    we only have one day to get it to the Secretary of 

            11    State, and that's pushing the realm of possibility 

            12    a bit.  So what we're basically doing is, as an 

            13    administrative tool for us, we will publish it 

            14    such that the 30-day comment period will be more 

            15    than satisfied before the August commission 

            16    meeting, so that you can take action in August, 

            17    should you choose to do so. 

            18                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  I'm clear.  

            19    Thanks. 

            20                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Commissioner 

            21    Montgomery. 

            22                  COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  As I 

            23    understand it, Jerry, too, the value of this 

            24    action is that depending on how the voluntary 

            25    program goes, should we choose to make any 


             1    modifications to the action, file -- it would 

             2    still be --

             3                  DR. COOKE:  Absolutely.  I mean, 

             4    basically you have the same authority as you 

             5    always do.  As long as you don't broaden a 

             6    regulation to include more people or more country, 

             7    then you may amend.  And so as long as we're, you 

             8    know, restricting it in some way, narrowing in the 

             9    regulation, you can certainly amend it however you 

            10    choose.  And we'll be happy to advise you on those 

            11    issues should such an amendment come before you. 

            12                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Commissioner 

            13    Fitzsimons? 

            14                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  Jerry, 

            15    could you review the numbers of where we are, or 

            16    is -- are we going to have a speaker on that 

            17    issue? 

            18                  DR. COOKE:  I think there are people 

            19    who will be able to speak to that issue a little 

            20    more personally, because all I have is memory from 

            21    yesterday.  I didn't take very good notes.  Sorry. 

            22                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Is there any 

            23    discussion now from the Commission?  We have some 

            24    people signed up to speak.  Roger S-o-a-p-e.  Is 

            25    that right? 


             1                  MR. SOAPE:  Actually I'm signed up 

             2    to speak on item 9.

             3                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  9?  Oh, sorry.  I'm 

             4    on the wrong one.  Here we go.  Kirby Brown is the 

             5    first person signed up to speak, and after that is 

             6    Karl Kinsel. 

             7                  MR. BROWN:  Madam Chairman, Members, 

             8    my name is Kirby Brown with the Texas Wildlife 

             9    Association.  We want to thank the Commission and 

            10    the staff for their efforts in this.  And, Madam 

            11    Chairman, your leadership in this action that's 

            12    going forward, we appreciate the rapid response, 

            13    the professionalism and the science being brought 

            14    to bear on the issue.  We think that's all very 

            15    important. 

            16                  We are continuing to work with the 

            17    Texas Animal Health Commission on the issue.  Our 

            18    meeting over the next few weeks -- in fact, Monday 

            19    we have a meeting with Commissioner Wood.  And 

            20    although our membership continues to have real 

            21    concern about CWD and entry into the wild, we 

            22    think the voluntary actions that are taking place 

            23    are proceeding at a rapid pace at this point in 

            24    time.  And we'd like to see that continue.  And we 

            25    believe that's a process, especially with the 


             1    response that we can get for herd health plans 

             2    from the Texas Animal Health Commission staff, 

             3    which is -- they're literally overwhelmed right 

             4    now with so many issues that they have on their 

             5    plate.  We think this is a good process, we think 

             6    it's an effective process, and we appreciate your 

             7    consideration in that regard.  So with that, 

             8    that's all I have to say.  Thank you very much. 

             9                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  After Karl, we have 

            10    Ellis Gilleland. 

            11                  MR. KINSEL:  I second entirely what 

            12    Kirby just said, but I also wanted to bring it to 

            13    y'all's attention that the letter is drafted going 

            14    out to all scientific breeders, all 467, both TWA 

            15    and TDA have individually drafted that letter.  We 

            16    intend to do that jointly to continue showing our 

            17    joint support and our joint efforts.  As soon as 

            18    we get clarification from TAHC, that will go as a 

            19    cover letter on form 0008 of the Texas Animal 

            20    Health Commission to enroll as many as possible 

            21    into the program.  Thank you. 

            22                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  We may have some 

            23    questions.  Commissioner Fitzsimons has a question 

            24    of Mr. Kinsel. 

            25                  MR. KINSEL:   Yes, sir? 


             1                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  

             2    Mr. Kinsel, at the last commission meeting, we 

             3    reviewed some numbers, some targets, I believe 

             4    would be the right term, 20 percent.  Could you 

             5    review for us where you are specifically on that 

             6    number? 

             7                  MR. KINSEL:   Yes, sir, I can.  One 

             8    second.

             9                  There are, as of date, 19 that are 

            10    turned in to Rick Smathers.  There's also another 

            11    11 that I have in possession.  And there is 

            12    another 37, if you'll add those numbers up for 

            13    me -- I estimated yesterday -- that we have of the 

            14    people who have signed up a request, a TDA member 

            15    request for application of TAHC form 0008.  And 

            16    that request simply was awaiting the clarification 

            17    letters.  The other ones that we've turned in and 

            18    the ones that are to be turned in were in 

            19    confidence that those clarification letters would 

            20    come forth. 

            21                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  All right.  

            22    And your testimony on April the 4th, you indicated 

            23    that you would be looking also for geographic 

            24    diversity -- 

            25                  MR. KINSEL:  Correct. 


             1                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  -- in your 

             2    group. 

             3                  MR. KINSEL:  Correct.

             4                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  And how 

             5    has that progressed?

             6                  MR. KINSEL:  That's progressed very 

             7    well because we've had four of the eight region 

             8    meetings.  At each of those region meetings, we've 

             9    had at least 30 or 40 percent of the members sign 

            10    up or -- sign up knowing that everything would be 

            11    done and done right.  Kind of the rest of them 

            12    said, let me wait and see, and they signed our 

            13    request forms.  So we've had at least 90 percent 

            14    participation by those people as far as positive.  

            15    We will follow up with them as soon as Ken Waldrup 

            16    has time, with approval of Logan and staff to 

            17    direct the cover letter that will go on form 0008.  

            18    It will go back to those people whose names and 

            19    addresses I have.  And then also that will go out 

            20    to the other of the 467 that I don't have, so that 

            21    we can start solicitation on them, as well. 

            22                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  And you 

            23    also stated that you didn't think it would be any 

            24    problem to have over 30 percent -- 32 percent of 

            25    the animals within the program.  My arithmetic 


             1    says that's 5,700 animals.  Do you have any idea 

             2    how many animals, of the ones you represent now, 

             3    would -- the roughly 56 that are in process? 

             4                  MR. KINSEL:   No, sir, I do not.  

             5    And I apologize.  That is a part of a census we're 

             6    doing of our own association, to look at animals 

             7    per member.  But I can say at this point that the 

             8    larger members have been the ones that have come 

             9    forward first and signed up.  So I'm assuming that 

            10    if we're looking at 20,000 animals and you want 30 

            11    percent of that, your numbers are correct. 

            12                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  All right.  

            13    Well, just for clarification, that was your 

            14    estimate.

            15                  MR. KINSEL:   That was a best guess.  

            16    And it still holds fairly true at this time.

            17                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  All right.  

            18    So fair to say you are less than halfway to your 

            19    goal? 

            20                  MR. KINSEL:   Correct, sir. 

            21                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  Thank you. 

            22                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Do we have any more 

            23    questions of Mr. Kinsel? 

            24                  MR. KINSEL:   Thank you. 

            25                  MR. GILLELAND:  My name is Ellis 


             1    Gilleland.  I'm speaking for Texas Animals, which 

             2    is an animal rights organization on the Internet.  

             3    I have three things I want to say.  Very rarely 

             4    will you hear me praise somebody at Parks and 

             5    Wildlife.  But I'd like to praise Jerry Cooke on 

             6    his May 1 rule that he wrote and published.  I 

             7    thought that was excellent.  When I read that, I 

             8    tingled, and I don't just tingle that often.  So 

             9    thank you, Jerry.  You get to be my age -- but he 

            10    didn't go far enough.  Now, that's a good first 

            11    step.  There's no monitoring in there, there's no 

            12    surveillance in there, there's no testing.  And 

            13    most of all, there's no penalty.  In other words, 

            14    when these (inaudible) get caught at 2:00 a.m. 

            15    coming across the Red River, what's the penalty?  

            16    Throw them in the Red River, pat them on the back, 

            17    give them a trophy or what?  So in the next 

            18    iteration, will you please add that?

            19                  The second thing I want to say is, 

            20    voluntary law does not work.  George W. Bush 

            21    approved that.  The cold fired power plants 

            22    throughout this state that are grandfathered from 

            23    30, 40 years ago are still belching.  They keep 

            24    the shell, they rebuild the guts and keep the same 

            25    within the grandfather clause.  Voluntary -- you 


             1    lawyers know that.  People will take advantage of 

             2    voluntary law.  It does not work.  And it's not in 

             3    your mission statement.  Everybody want to do 

             4    this?  No.  Okay.  Don't do it.  Everybody don't 

             5    want to do it?  Yeah, okay, do it.  That's not 

             6    government.  That's not what you're being paid to 

             7    do.  So forget about the voluntary stuff.  Make a 

             8    law.  Jerry gave you a good first step.  Make a 

             9    law, there it is.  Now, get the voluntary 

            10    compliance once you've got the law.  That's where 

            11    you want the voluntary.  Not voluntary eons and 

            12    eons.  There's no -- that's not law.  That's an 

            13    anarchy.

            14                  The third thing I want to mention, 

            15    there's no precedence for voluntary law.  The 

            16    precedence are coherent laws.  We are a nation of 

            17    laws.  Rabies -- let's bring it down to home.  

            18    Rabies in Texas.  Take away the rabies law and 

            19    what have we got?  We've got a bunch of dead 

            20    people without rabies law.  There's got to be a 

            21    CWD law or in a year or two or five years from now 

            22    we're going to all be in trouble and go back and 

            23    all these (inaudible), well, let's go back and see 

            24    what happened.  Well, we don't have to do that.  

            25    Let's take the action now.  Get the consensus, get 


             1    the voluntary, yeah, yeah, yeah, make a law.  Now, 

             2    do it, and there's a penalty.  Please, the 

             3    politics are not a factor in this.  The heck with 

             4    them.  They can start dipping ice cream at Dairy 

             5    Queen or something.  They don't have to raise a 

             6    deer.  Thank you. 

             7                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Does staff have any 

             8    comments or response on these comments?  Does the 

             9    Commission have any comments? 

            10                  If there are no comments, is there a 

            11    motion on this item? 

            12                  COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  Joseph.

            13                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Joseph, did you 

            14    have a comment? 

            15                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  I would 

            16    move we would adopt the second recommendation.

            17                  COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  Which is 

            18    to withdraw -- to postpone it?

            19                  COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  To postpone it.

            20                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  To postpone it.

            21                  COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  If that's your 

            22    motion, I'll second that.

            23                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  All in favor? 

            24                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  And 

            25    republish.


             1                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  And republish.

             2                  COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  Are we 

             3    reposting to allow us to modify --

             4                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Correct.  Do we 

             5    have a second? 

             6                  COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  Second.

             7                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  All in favor? 

             8                  ("Aye.")

             9                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Any opposed?  

            10    Hearing none, motion carries. 

            11                  (Motion passes unanimously.)

            12                  DR. COOKE:  Madam Chairman?

            13                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Yes?

            14                  DR. COOKE:  I didn't get to hear 

            15    Mr. Montgomery's comment on the clarification you 

            16    asked for. 

            17                  COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  Clarifying 

            18    that reposting still allows us to modify --

            19                  DR. COOKE:  I'm sorry.  Thank you.

            20                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Do we need to go 

            21    through that again or are we done there?

            22    "The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission adopts 31 
                  TAC §65.601 and §65.611, concerning Scientific 
            23    Breeder's Permits, with changes to the proposed 
                  text as published in the March 1, 2002 issue of 
            24    the Texas Register (27 TexReg 1463)."



             1       RESOLUTION.

             2                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Okay.  Agenda item 

             3    number 5, nonprofit partners resolution.  

             4    Ms. Harris, will you please make your 

             5    presentation. 

             6                  MS. HARRIS:  Thank you, Madam 

             7    Chairman, Members of the Commission.  My name is 

             8    Susan Harris with the administrative resources 

             9    division here in Austin.  And with me today is 

            10    Page Campbell with the coastal fisheries division, 

            11    stationed in Rockport.

            12                  The item we are bringing before you 

            13    today is the nonprofit partners resolution.  And a 

            14    quick overview of what we'll be presenting, we're 

            15    going to look at the Sunset legislation and the 

            16    mandates from that that impacted the Department as 

            17    well as the Commission.  We're going to quickly 

            18    look at how this evolved into a natural leaders 

            19    project assignment.  We're going to review the 

            20    categories that the team identified, and then 

            21    finally, we'll make a recommendation for your 

            22    approval.

            23                  Senate Bill 305, also known as 

            24    Sunset legislation, authorizes the Department to 

            25    select and cooperate with nonprofit partners, but 


             1    it also requires that the Parks and Wildlife 

             2    Commission approve each nonprofit organization 

             3    selected to partner with the Department. 

             4                  The Sunset staff report listed an 

             5    issue which stated that the Department has 

             6    beneficial relationships with private, nonprofit 

             7    foundations, but additional controls are needed.  

             8    So they recognized the significance of these 

             9    partnerships, but they just ask a few more 

            10    controls be put in place.

            11                  As part of the Sunset implementation 

            12    plan, this was selected as a natural leaders 

            13    project.  The project team includes myself and 

            14    Page, project mentor, Russell Fishbeck with state 

            15    parks division, and a project sponsor, Gene 

            16    McCarty with the executive office.

            17                  SB 305 further defines a nonprofit 

            18    partner as a nonpolitical entity that is 

            19    incorporated under the laws of the state, has been 

            20    granted a 501(c) tax exemption, and works with the 

            21    Department to further its goals.

            22                  The project team established three 

            23    specific categories into which all current 

            24    nonprofits were grouped.  And they are the 

            25    official nonprofit partner, closely related 


             1    nonprofit partners, and other nonprofit partners.

             2                  First the official nonprofit 

             3    partner, and that is the Parks and Wildlife 

             4    Foundation of Texas.  And as such, it is the 

             5    single nonprofit organization that is designated 

             6    by you, the Commission, to function as the 

             7    principal support entity of this Department.

             8                  The second category are closely 

             9    related nonprofits.  And these are nonprofit by 

            10    law and their sole purpose is to support Parks and 

            11    Wildlife, our facilities, the programs and 

            12    activities within those facilities.  They're also 

            13    known as friends groups.  You may be more familiar 

            14    with that terminology.  They're administered by a 

            15    board of directors and they are independent from 

            16    the Parks and Wildlife Commission.

            17                  The team currently identified 69 

            18    closely related nonprofit partners, and they have 

            19    a signed memorandum of agreement on file here with 

            20    the Department.  And those are found under 

            21    Exhibit B in your commission book.

            22                  The third category, the other 

            23    nonprofit partners, those are also nonprofit by 

            24    law.  And their mission complements the mission of 

            25    Parks and Wildlife.  They provide the Department 


             1    gifts of money, goods or services.  And these 

             2    relationships are of an ongoing nature.  And what 

             3    the project team found was that the level of 

             4    partnership really can vary.  It varies from 

             5    paying travel expenses for employees to attend 

             6    conferences or workshops, all the way to 

             7    full-blown conservation projects such as building 

             8    marshes and wetlands with Ducks Unlimited or even 

             9    acquiring property with the help of the Nature 

            10    Conservancy.  And the project team identified 101 

            11    that met the criteria to be in the other category.  

            12    And they can be found under Exhibit C in your 

            13    commission book.

            14                  And just briefly the most 

            15    significant difference between the closely related 

            16    and the other is that the closely related exists 

            17    solely for Parks and Wildlife and to benefit a 

            18    particular site or program, whereas the other, 

            19    they do help Parks and Wildlife but they help 

            20    other organizations, as well.

            21                  And finally, the following 

            22    recommendation is presented for your 

            23    consideration, that the Parks and Wildlife 

            24    commission adopt by resolution the proposed list 

            25    of nonprofit organizations authorized to partner 


             1    with the Department as shown in Exhibit B and 

             2    Exhibit C.  And we'd be happy to take any 

             3    questions at this time. 

             4                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Do we have any 

             5    questions from the Commission?

             6                  VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO:  Madam 

             7    Chairman, we confirmed yesterday but I'd like to 

             8    get it in the record today that you do have -- or 

             9    you are recommending a procedure for updating 

            10    these lists over time.  Is that correct?

            11                  MS. HARRIS:  Yes, sir.  It will be 

            12    similar to the donations acceptance policy.  It 

            13    will be similar to that.

            14                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Any other 

            15    questions?  Do we have a motion on this?

            16                  COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  I move we 

            17    accept the report with thanks for the good work 

            18    done, and adopt the list with the regular periodic 

            19    update mechanism.

            20                  COMMISSIONER RISING:  Second.

            21                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  All in favor? 

            22                  ("Aye.")

            23                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Any opposed?  

            24    Motion carries. 

            25                  (Motion passes unanimously.)


             1    "The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission adopts by 
                  resolution (Exhibit A), the closely related 
             2    nonprofit partners (Exhibit B) and other nonprofit 
                  partners (Exhibit C)."
             3       AGENDA ITEM NO. 6: ACTION - FY03 GENERAL 


             5                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Next agenda item 

             6    number 6 is an action item, fiscal year '03 GO 

             7    bond resolution.  Mr. Whiston, will you please 

             8    make your presentation? 

             9                  MR. WHISTON:  Yes.  Thank you, Madam 

            10    Chairman, Commissioners.  Good morning.  My name 

            11    is Steve Whiston.  I'm the acting director of 

            12    infrastructure division.  This agenda item seeks 

            13    your approval this morning of the bond resolution 

            14    and the request for financing for the general 

            15    obligation bond program for FY03.  These two 

            16    documents will be incorporated into the bond 

            17    package, to be submitted to the Texas Public 

            18    Finance Authority, to initiate the process that 

            19    will culminate in September with the approval and 

            20    sale and issue of bond funds for repair and 

            21    construction projects.  On November 6 of last 

            22    year, the Texas voters approved proposition 8, 

            23    which was one of 19 constitutional amendments that 

            24    authorized the issue of $850 million of general 

            25    obligation bonds for 13 state agencies.


             1                  Parks and Wildlife will receive 

             2    $101.5 million in GO bonds for capital repairs and 

             3    construction projects to be released in five 

             4    different issues over three biennia.

             5                  Those funds include $15 million 

             6    of -- to complete the remaining critical repairs 

             7    that were identified in the FY96 infrastructure 

             8    task force report.  $54 million to be issued over 

             9    the next five years for planned, scheduled repairs 

            10    at parks, wildlife management areas, fisheries, 

            11    law enforcement facilities and administrative 

            12    facilities statewide.  And lastly, 32-1/2 million 

            13    for the repair and renovation of park sites that 

            14    were specifically identified by the 77th 

            15    Legislature.

            16                  This funding matrix details how the 

            17    $105-1/2 million will be issued over the three 

            18    biennia.  The bond resolution before you today 

            19    requests the financing of the first 36.68 million 

            20    for the '02-'03 biennium.  The Legislature in its 

            21    last session provided the appropriation authority 

            22    for this first issue to be released in September.  

            23    $31 million of this -- these funds will be 

            24    allocated for the repairs.  5.68 million will be 

            25    made available to begin the planning and the 


             1    design and the renovation of the San Jacinto 

             2    Battleground, Admiral Nimitz, Sheldon Lake 

             3    Environmental Education Center, and the Levi 

             4    Jordan Plantation.  Additional appropriation 

             5    authority will be needed from the Legislature in 

             6    the next two sessions in order to fund the 

             7    remaining issues of this bond program.

             8                  With that, Commissioners, the staff 

             9    recommends that the Texas Parks and Wildlife 

            10    Commission adopt the following motion: the Texas 

            11    Parks and Wildlife Commission adopts by resolution 

            12    the authority to request financing of construction 

            13    and repair projects through general obligation 

            14    bonds and for the execution and delivery of 

            15    documents to effect such financing.  I'll be happy 

            16    to answer any questions. 

            17                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Do we have any 

            18    questions?  No one is signed up to speak.  Do we 

            19    have a motion on this? 

            20                  COMMISSIONER WATSON:  So moved.

            21                  COMMISSIONER RISING:  Second.

            22                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  All in favor?

            23                  ("Aye.")

            24                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Opposed?  Motion 

            25    carries.  Thank you, Mr. Whiston.


             1                  (Motion passes unanimously.)

             2    "The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission adopts by 
                  resolution (Exhibit A), the authority to request 
             3    financing of construction and repair projects 
                  (Exhibit B) through general obligation bonds and 
             4    for the execution and delivery of documents to 
                  effect such financing."

             6       POPULATION REVIEW.

             7                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Agenda item number 

             8    7, a briefing item, angler and hunter population 

             9    review.  Dr. Graham, will you please make your 

            10    presentation.

            11    (Whereupon a briefing was presented to the 
                  Commission, the following proceedings were heard:)
            12       AGENDA ITEM NO. 8: ACTION - LAND TRANSFERS.

            13                   CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Item number 8, 

            14    Texas Parks and Wildlife facility transfer Port 

            15    Lavaca.  Walt Dabney, will you please present? 

            16                  MR. DABNEY:  Morning, Commissioners.  

            17    My name is Walt Dabney.  I'm state park director.  

            18    I'm here today to talk to you about the Port 

            19    Lavaca fishing pier.  We've had what became the 

            20    Port Lavaca fishing pier since 1963.  It was part 

            21    of Highway 35 that was destroyed with Hurricane 

            22    Carla.  And we went in, made a 3200-foot fishing 

            23    pier, lighted, 24-hour-a-day fishing pier out of 

            24    it.  In 1999, it was struck by lightning and burnt 

            25    the end, 1200 feet of the fishing pier off.  We 


             1    did an engineering assessment of that, with the 

             2    thought of trying to rebuild the fishing pier and 

             3    had estimates of, oh, five to six million 

             4    dollars -- from two to five to six million dollars 

             5    to really put it back in good order, or about 

             6    $320,000 to remove it. 

             7                  The City of Port Lavaca has been 

             8    operating this as a fishing pier.  They're very 

             9    interested in continuing to do that.  And we have 

            10    an agreement with them that if we will give them 

            11    the money we would have used to tear it down, they 

            12    will find other funds and put it back together for 

            13    them.  We think that's a good deal, and we're 

            14    bringing that to you today to -- for your 

            15    consideration.  The staff recommends that we do 

            16    proceed in doing that.  It would transfer this 

            17    state parks site to a local jurisdiction pursuant 

            18    to House Bill 2108.  And if you have any 

            19    questions, I would be glad to answer those.  And 

            20    this is our recommendation. 

            21                  VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO:  Do we have 

            22    any questions?  I don't believe we have anybody 

            23    signed up --

            24                  COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  Move 

            25    approval.


             1                  VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO:  Second?

             2                  COMMISSIONER AVILA:  Second.

             3                  VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO:  All in favor, 

             4    please say "aye." 

             5                  ("Aye.")

             6                  VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO:  Opposed?  

             7    Motion is adopted. 

             8                  MR. DABNEY:  Thank you, sir. 

             9                  VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO:  Thank you. 

            10                  (Motion passes unanimously.)

            11    "The Executive Director is authorized to execute 
                  the necessary agreements to effect the transfer of 
            12    Port Lavaca State Fishing Pier for operations to 
                  the City of Port Lavaca as a city park site.  All 
            13    'state pier' references to the site shall be 
                  removed.  The Executive Director is authorized to 
            14    execute a grant agreement in the amount of 
                  $320,000 using funds from the Texas Recreation and 
            15    Parks Account to effect the orderly transfer of 
                  this site."
            16       ACTION ITEM NO. 9: ACTION - NOMINATION FOR OIL 


            18       WMA-JEFFERSON COUNTY.

            19                  VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO:  Move on to 

            20    item number 9, which is the nomination for oil and 

            21    gas lease in Jefferson County, to be presented by 

            22    Jack Bauer. 

            23                  MR. BAUER:  Morning, Commissioners, 

            24    my name is Jack Bauer, director of land 

            25    conservation.  This item develops a recommendation 


             1    to the board for lease for Park and Wildlife lands 

             2    relative to an oil and gas nomination at the J.D.  

             3    Murphree wildlife management area.  Approximately 

             4    4700 acres has been nominated at the Salt Bayou 

             5    unit.  Parks and Wildlife owns 50 percent of the 

             6    minerals.  Staff believes exploration and 

             7    extraction of minerals can be achieved if the 

             8    highest standards for environmental protection are 

             9    followed.  Protection of the wetlands and the 

            10    hydrology of the area is the area of special 

            11    emphasis.

            12                  For your information, I have been 

            13    advised that the board for lease considered this 

            14    item yesterday and they approved it on the 

            15    condition that y'all approve it.  And under the 

            16    terms for which you would have it approved.

            17                  Staff recommends the Commission 

            18    consider the motion before you that will recommend 

            19    to the board for lease for Parks and Wildlife 

            20    lands a nomination of 11 tracts, with minimum 

            21    acceptable bid terms of $150 per acre, 25 percent 

            22    royalty, $10-per-acre delay rental on a three-year 

            23    term, incorporating the lease condition set out in 

            24    Exhibit A within the boundaries of the Salt Bayou 

            25    unit of the J.D. Murphree area.


             1                  VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO:  I believe the 

             2    slide says 23 but that's supposed to be a 25?  Or 

             3    is that my eyes? 

             4                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  It says  

             5    23.

             6                  MR. BAUER:  It says 23.  That's a 

             7    good catch.  And it is 25. 

             8                  VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO:  25.

             9                  COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  Move 

            10    approval. 

            11                  VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO:  Wait, wait.  

            12    We have some people to speak on this item.  He's 

            13    through presenting and ready for questions. 

            14                  MR. DABNEY:  I believe there's a 

            15    speaker, ma'am. 

            16                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  I believe we have 

            17    some speakers.  Roger -- how do you -- Soape?  

            18    Okay.  And then Ellis Gilleland. 

            19                  MR. SOAPE:  It's simpler than it 

            20    appears. 

            21                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Okay. 

            22                  MR. SOAPE:  I get to come before 

            23    this group about once every five years in 20 

            24    something years of being a petroleum landman.  I'm 

            25    Roger Soape from Houston, Texas.  I don't know why 


             1    I don't come more often and listen to what y'all 

             2    do.  I hunt and fish and I have teenage children 

             3    that hunt and fish.  And if I could have gotten my 

             4    daughter out of high school finals today, she 

             5    would have come with me just for the experience.  

             6    So thank you for all that you do.

             7                  I represent several oil and gas 

             8    companies who conducted a 3-D seismic survey 

             9    across the Murphree Refuge and some 120 square 

            10    miles of land last year.  Jim Sutherland worked, I 

            11    think, fairly well together.  We managed to get 

            12    our work done in drought conditions on the one 

            13    hand, followed by flood conditions immediately 

            14    with tropical storm Allison.  With the 

            15    restrictions of migratory bird seasons, where we 

            16    had to be in and out of the field.  Anyway, 

            17    completed the survey and have identified some 

            18    areas that we think might be prospective for oil 

            19    and gas.  And in discussing this with Jack Bauer 

            20    and the other staff members, we conceded early on 

            21    any surface use of the acreage we're talking 

            22    about.  So any exploration we do, any drilling 

            23    that we do will be from acreage that is not Parks 

            24    and Wildlife mineral lands.  It will be on other 

            25    lands.


             1                  We were a little bit alarmed by the 

             2    exhibit that is attached to the lease in that it's 

             3    a bit open-ended about what sort of plans we would 

             4    have to file with Parks and Wildlife, what sort of 

             5    bonding requirements we may encounter.  But in 

             6    talking with Mr. Bauer and with other members of 

             7    the staff and with the General Land Office, we are 

             8    relatively comfortable that we can work those 

             9    issues out if and when the time comes that we 

            10    would propose to drill a well on lands that are 

            11    adjoining the Parks and Wildlife properties.

            12                  So we would like to encourage you to 

            13    approve the nomination and have these lands 

            14    offered for lease at the July state lease sale.

            15                  My impression is that it will be 

            16    nominated -- that the 4,000-plus acres will be 

            17    nominated in separate parcels so that we'll have 

            18    the discretion of being able to bid on some but 

            19    not all.  And I would tell you that it is likely 

            20    at this point that we will bid on some.  It is 

            21    unlikely that we will bid on all.  And I'm 

            22    available for questions if you have any. 

            23                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Are there any 

            24    questions of Mr. Soape?  Commissioner Ramos?

            25                  COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  Let me 


             1    understand what you're saying.  Are you saying 

             2    you've done 3D seismic on our minerals? 

             3                  MR. SOAPE:  Yes, sir.

             4                  COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  And you're 

             5    asking us to offer that at a public auction or -- 

             6    I don't understand. 

             7                  MR. SOAPE:  The board for lease, 

             8    which is handled through the General Land Office 

             9    and the public school fund, offer a public oil and 

            10    gas lease sale of prison lands, Parks and Wildlife 

            11    lands, and public school lands four times a year.  

            12    It used to be twice a year, now four times a year.  

            13    Those sales are offered as a sealed bid.  The 

            14    terms that you saw presented, the bonus, the 

            15    royalty, the rental and the primary term, the last 

            16    three of those terms are fixed for purposes of the 

            17    sale.  The 25-percent royalty is nonnegotiable.  

            18    The three-year term is nonnegotiable.  The $10-per 

            19    acre delay rental to maintain the lease in the 

            20    absence of production for the second year and the 

            21    third year, are fixed terms by the board for 

            22    lease.  The only variable is the bonus.  So when 

            23    my client gets ready to formulate whatever they're 

            24    willing to offer for the lease will be at least 

            25    $150 per net mineral acre.  Now, remember that 


             1    your net mineral acres are half of what the total 

             2    mineral acreage is because you only own half the 

             3    minerals on these properties.  Other -- you know, 

             4    the public -- other gas and exploration companies 

             5    will have the same opportunity in the same sealed 

             6    bid form to make an offer.

             7                  COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  If we were to 

             8    do that, if we were to nominate our minerals, are 

             9    we obligated to lease them under those terms or do 

            10    we reserve the right to reject all the bids? 

            11                  MR. SOAPE:  No.  Once we meet the 

            12    minimums, if we are the high bidder, we would be 

            13    awarded the lease. 

            14                  COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  Okay.  Thank 

            15    you.

            16                  MR. SOAPE:  Just for what it's 

            17    worth, probably the nearest field that has 

            18    produced that would be comparable to what we would 

            19    be looking down here is McFaddin Field, which is 

            20    very close by.  We estimated that if the State 

            21    owned the same mineral interest in that field that 

            22    it owns in the acreage that we're nominating for 

            23    lease, and given the current royalty rates and 

            24    product prices, you'd probably be talking about a 

            25    net present value of 10 or 15 million dollars in 


             1    royalty revenue to the State.  So if that gives 

             2    you any sort of basis for consideration. 

             3                  COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  Is that on all 

             4    of the minerals or is that on a specific tract 

             5    that you identified? 

             6                  MR. SOAPE:  That was on a specific 

             7    tract.  McFaddin Field, I think, is really only 

             8    about a thousand acres in area. 

             9                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Commissioner 

            10    Fitzsimons? 

            11                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  To follow 

            12    up on Commissioner Ramos' question, the 

            13    nominations are done, as I understand it, tract by 

            14    tract.  Correct? 

            15                  MR. SOAPE:  Yes, sir.

            16                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  Separate 

            17    leases?

            18                  MR. SOAPE:  Yes, sir. 

            19                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  And to 

            20    include terms, no -- at a minimum of not only the 

            21    lease terms you described, but the Exhibit A which 

            22    describes the surface use issues, access, 

            23    et cetera?

            24                  MR. SOAPE:  That's correct.

            25                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  So each 


             1    one of those would require that --

             2                  MR. SOAPE:  That's correct.  Now, 

             3    remember, none of the leases will allow surface 

             4    access.  Okay.  The surface use agreement will 

             5    come into play if we drill a well on lands near 

             6    the lands that we have leased, where we would be 

             7    drilling a directional well to bottom under the 

             8    Parks and Wildlife lands.  So that if we're close 

             9    by, this additional surface use agreement would 

            10    come into play.

            11                  COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS:  I 

            12    understand.  Thank you. 

            13                  VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO:  Madam 

            14    Chairman, I'll have a question for Mr. Bauer, but 

            15    no further for Mr. Soape.

            16                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Any further 

            17    questions for Mr. Soape? 

            18                  I think Mr. Angelo has a question of 

            19    Mr. Bauer. 

            20                  VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO:  Jack, the way 

            21    this is presented, are we nominating the tracts?  

            22    Would they be nominated separately so that they 

            23    could be bid upon separately?  Is that --

            24                  MR. BAUER:  Yes, sir. 

            25                  VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO:  I guess you 


             1    have another speaker.  Is that right? 

             2                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Mr. Gilleland.

             3                  MR. GILLELAND:  I have a handout for 

             4    you.  My name is Ellis Gilleland, speaking for 

             5    Texas Animals.  Today is the 30th year, the 30th 

             6    anniversary of Sea Rim State Park.  It was created 

             7    in 1972 by the work of Senator Karl Parker.  So 

             8    it's more or less his baby.

             9                  Deer hunting was taking place there 

            10    25 years ago there by law, 25 years before 1997 it 

            11    started in other state parks.  There are a lot of 

            12    deer there.  When Parker created the park, the 

            13    alligators were about that long, ten inches, and 

            14    now they're ten foot.  Now, so that's what I'm 

            15    speaking about, ten-foot alligators, animals that 

            16    have been there for 30 years undisturbed.  By the 

            17    grace of God, they have survived the petrochemical 

            18    industry in Port Arthur and Beaumont.  If you've 

            19    ever been there and you've been in the channel, 

            20    you know what those animals face down there from 

            21    the chemical industry and the shipping.

            22                  The reason why I gave you this map 

            23    which you have in front of you is to show you, 

            24    it's just like ground zero.  It is -- if a 

            25    critical area were to be designed by the hand of 


             1    God, it could not be designed better than what you 

             2    have right there.  You have a national wildlife 

             3    area.  You have a state park, Sea Rim, the federal 

             4    McFaddin National Wildlife Refuge, and then you 

             5    have the state wildlife management area, all three 

             6    abutting in one place.

             7                  If a spill -- if an oil spill 

             8    occurs, it is going to do a tremendous amount of 

             9    damage because the whole area there is marsh land.  

            10    You need an air boat to get around.  And we just 

            11    had a spill coming from Louisiana not too long 

            12    ago.

            13                  The reason why I bring this up, I 

            14    know from previous talks that I've made about 

            15    previous easements and so forth, even though you 

            16    have a regulation that prescribes environmental 

            17    studies, you don't do them.  So none have been 

            18    presented in terms of the impact of the drilling 

            19    environmental effects that might result from the 

            20    drilling of ruptured pipeline.  If you've done 

            21    them, you deny it or you don't show them.

            22                  The other thing that causes me great 

            23    concern is, why do you not show where the drilling 

            24    rig will be situated?  Why is this secret?  You 

            25    show the area, you show the limits of the park and 


             1    everything else.  Why don't you show the public 

             2    where these yahoos are going to put their rig?  

             3    Are they going to put it in downtown Port Arthur?  

             4    Are they going to put a floating rig out in the 

             5    ship channel?  Are they going to put it outside 

             6    the Sea Rim State Park headquarters?  Are they 

             7    going to angle drill?  I assume they are.  But 

             8    where are they going to put it?  Is it going to 

             9    work over water or dry land.  In other words, it 

            10    all affects the environmental impact if something 

            11    goes wrong.  Please take that consideration.  I 

            12    beseech you.  Karl would turn over -- well, he's 

            13    still alive.  Thank you. 

            14                  MR. BAUER:  I'd be happy to respond.

            15                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Would you respond? 

            16                  MR. BAUER:  And perhaps Roger would 

            17    also.

            18                  COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  Could you 

            19    add insurance and bonding requirements to your 

            20    summary, just in your response, so we're aware of 

            21    them? 

            22                  MR. BAUER:  The -- I think the 

            23    reason that a location of where drilling will 

            24    occur is not shown -- and I'd like to get a 

            25    confirmation by Mr. Soape -- is that it's not 


             1    known at this time.  And I'm sure that the 

             2    applicant will -- once the nomination is assured 

             3    that it is going to happen, then a review of data 

             4    and where -- then surface use agreements begin to 

             5    be formed to allow the operator to do that 

             6    operational function.  And it's just not known at 

             7    this point in time.

             8                  I would like to add that the 

             9    reputation that the oil and gas industry has with 

            10    our coastal properties is exceptional.  The 

            11    industry -- I really believe that the industry has 

            12    no more desire to do environmental damage than we 

            13    would have them do.  Because it's not to the 

            14    benefit of them or their image or the properties 

            15    themselves.  So it's a -- we function within that 

            16    industry as a landowner at the benefit of the 

            17    whole.  And that is -- it's to everybody's best 

            18    interest to do these activities in an appropriate 

            19    way and in a way that does not degrade the 

            20    resources.

            21                  The bonding issues, as we -- if the 

            22    company that Mr. Soape represents becomes the 

            23    leasor, then we would initiate a negotiation to 

            24    develop the surface use agreement.  And that -- 

            25    some of the attributes of that surface use 


             1    agreement will describe the bonding issues that 

             2    are required.  And I believe ours is usually a 

             3    million dollars.

             4                  I would expect that Mr. Soape will 

             5    also have requirements from -- to develop surface 

             6    use agreements from the other neighbors who are 

             7    around there, which will include the City of Port 

             8    Arthur.  And I would expect that the City has 

             9    their own bonding requirements.  So he will 

            10    probably be hit from several places on the needs 

            11    to put up bond.

            12                  But for us, those issues are 

            13    described in the guidelines for mineral extraction 

            14    that is a coordinated -- it's not a policy.  It is 

            15    a set of guidelines that you have seen.  And those 

            16    things, those components of that surface use 

            17    agreement are described in those guidelines.

            18                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Mr. Angelo? 

            19                  VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO:  I'd move 

            20    approval. 

            21                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  A motion by 

            22    Commissioner Angelo.  Do I have a second? 

            23                  COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  Second, 

            24    modify with the 25 percent. 

            25                  VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO:  No.  That is 


             1    a typo. 

             2                  MR. BAUER:  Yes.  The correct is 25 

             3    percent. 

             4                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  All in favor?

             5                  ("Aye.")

             6                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Opposed?  Hearing 

             7    none, motion passes. 

             8                  (Motion passes unanimously.)

             9    "The Executive Director is authorized to nominate 
                  for oil and gas lease to the Board for Lease for 
            10    Parks and Wildlife Lands, eleven tracts, with 
                  minimum acceptable bid terms of $150 per acre 
            11    bonus, 25 percent royalty, $10 per acre delay 
                  rental, and a 3-year term, incorporating the 
            12    restrictions set out in Exhibit A."

            13       AGENDA ITEM NO. 10: ACTION - RELEASE OF LAND 


            15                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Agenda item number 

            16    10, action item, release of land use restrictions, 

            17    Galveston Island.  Mr. Ray, will you please make 

            18    your presentation?  

            19                  MR. RAY:  Commissioners, my name is 

            20    Ronnie Ray.  I'm a project manager with the Land 

            21    Conservation Group.  My item is release of land 

            22    use restrictions on a tract of property adjacent 

            23    to the Galveston Island State Park.  The tract is 

            24    in the northeast corner of the park, indicated 

            25    here in the red block.  It's a ten-acre tract in 


             1    which we own restrictions on four acres.  And the 

             2    release of these restrictions will allow our 

             3    neighbor to develop an ecotourism business that 

             4    will benefit both the state park as well as their 

             5    property.

             6                  The recommendation is as follows:  

             7    The executive director is authorized to take all 

             8    steps necessary to waive the restrictions as 

             9    specified in the deed without warranty dated 

            10    October 22nd, 1976, in which TPWD conveyed 4.139 

            11    acres out of the Edward Hall and Levi Jones 

            12    surveys Numbers 7 and 8 in Galveston County, to 

            13    comply with the development requirements of Como 

            14    Lake Limited, as per Exhibit B as it exists or as 

            15    it may be later amended.  Exhibit B is the 

            16    schematics for the planned ecotourism business.  

            17    Is there any questions? 

            18                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Do we have any 

            19    questions? 

            20                  We have one person signed up to 

            21    speak.  Ellis Gilleland.

            22                  MR. GILLELAND:  I have a handout for 

            23    you.

            24                  My name is Ellis Gilleland, speaking 

            25    for Texas Animals.  I've given you a copy of the 


             1    open meeting -- an extract of the Open Meetings 

             2    Law.  And the reason why I did this is to show you 

             3    that you broke the law yesterday when you had a 

             4    closed executive meeting on this removal of lease 

             5    restrictions.  The law clearly states that you may 

             6    meet in closed secret session to discuss real 

             7    estate purchase, exchange, lease, or value.  That 

             8    is not what you discussed yesterday in terms of 

             9    this release of land use restriction.  So you 

            10    broke the law yesterday, you're subject to 

            11    criminal penalty, et cetera, et cetera, as I've 

            12    given you here.

            13                  The reason why I'm here is because I 

            14    smell a rat.  When you go to the length of 

            15    breaking the law to hide yesterday what you just 

            16    showed to the screen here today, there's something 

            17    wrong.  Why did you not put this before the public 

            18    yesterday so we could see this and we could think 

            19    about it and look at it overnight?  We didn't have 

            20    that opportunity.  I was nearly thrown in jail, 

            21    arrested yesterday.  The gentleman is not here 

            22    now, but he threatened me after two hours of 

            23    ringing, I asked to be -- to see the lease 

            24    restrictions.  And only when I asked to go to see 

            25    Mr. Cook, they finally came down, I said, okay, 


             1    give me a copy of the lease restrictions.  They 

             2    would not give them to me.  I said, well, here, I 

             3    gave him a pen, write them down.  No.  They 

             4    wouldn't write them down.  So I said, will you 

             5    tell me orally?  Yes.  So they told me orally and 

             6    I wrote down the restrictions.

             7                  Now, that was at 4:30.  And I 

             8    finally learned, after all that argument and so 

             9    forth, what the lease restrictions are.

            10                  So if I had did that -- and the rest 

            11    of these people don't know -- did not know until 

            12    just now.  You put it on the screen.  So I'm 

            13    asking you to not pass this today because you've 

            14    met -- you did not put it before the public 

            15    yesterday openly.  You discussed it in secret, in 

            16    violation of the law.  You didn't give the public 

            17    the opportunity to be informed of this and to look 

            18    into it.

            19                  This morning, I was given a -- I 

            20    demanded this yesterday and I didn't get it.  I 

            21    said, give me a list of what we're going to give 

            22    up on one side and give me a list of what we're 

            23    going to receive from these people on the other 

            24    side.  That was my idea.  I demanded this.  And 

            25    now this morning, okay, they finally give me 


             1    something.  But yesterday it was going to jail to 

             2    get it.  And I've already been locked up one time 

             3    and I don't want to do it again.

             4                  So what I'm trying to tell you is, 

             5    this may all be hunky dorry and above board.  I 

             6    don't know.  So -- but if you delay it until the 

             7    next meeting, I will know, because I'll go down 

             8    there.  And I suspect, because of this height 

             9    restriction, they're going to build a 50-story 

            10    condominium ala South Padre right on the doorstep 

            11    of your state park.  Do you want a 50 -- 

            12    Mr. Fitzsimons, do you want a 50-story condominium 

            13    in front of the entrance to State Rim -- Sea Rim 

            14    State Park? 

            15                  MR. COOK:  Mr. Gilleland? 

            16                  MR. GILLELAND:  I'm sorry, I 

            17    misspoke.  It's not Sea Rim.  That was the 

            18    previous.  It was Galveston Island State Park.  So 

            19    I'm asking you to delay the vote until the next 

            20    meeting, until we get a chance -- the public has a 

            21    chance to look at it, and then -- now, I might -- 

            22    and I gave you a copy of the law --

            23                  MR. COOK:  Mr. Gilleland --

            24                  MR. GILLELAND:  The judge can revoke 

            25    the -- yes, sir. 


             1                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Do we have a 

             2    response from Mr. Ray or staff to Mr. Gilleland's 

             3    comment? 

             4                  MR. RAY:  Not really, ma'am.  I 

             5    think it's all been addressed. 

             6                  VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO:  The open 

             7    meetings question is what I'd like to hear an 

             8    answer to.

             9                  MR. BAUER:  Sir, your question? 

            10                  VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO:  The fact that 

            11    we did meet the open meetings requirements by 

            12    going into executive session for this particular 

            13    item.  He's questioning whether we were proper in 

            14    going into executive session to discuss this.  And 

            15    I'd like a response from you regarding that. 

            16                  MR. BAUER:  Yes, sir.  Jack Bauer, 

            17    land conservation program.

            18                  My interpretation is, is this was 

            19    very much a real estate matter.  It involved an 

            20    exchange of funds, goods and services, and it 

            21    involved a component of land that was being 

            22    disposed of.  And I clearly think that was a real 

            23    estate matter that was appropriate to be in 

            24    executive session. 

            25                  VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO:  Well, I 


             1    certainly thought it was also, but I wanted be -- 

             2    wanted you to reassure us on that.

             3                  COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  I 

             4    certainly agree with that.

             5                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Thank you. 

             6                  VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO:  I'd move 

             7    approval.

             8                  COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  Second.

             9                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Second?  Do I have 

            10    any -- all in favor? 

            11                  ("Aye.")

            12                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Any opposed?  

            13    Motion carries.

            14                  (Motion passes unanimously.)

            15    "The Executive Director is authorized to take all 
                  steps necessary to waive the restrictions as 
            16    specified in a Deed Without Warranty dated October 
                  22, 1976, in which TPWD conveyed 4.139 acres out 
            17    of the Edward Hall and Levi Jones Surveys No. 7 
                  and 8 in Galveston County, to comply with the 
            18    development requirements of Como Lake Ltd. as per 
                  Exhibit B as it exists or as it may be later 
            19    amended."
                     AGENDA ITEM NO. 11: ACTION - LAND ACQUISITION - 
            20       CAMERON COUNTY.

            21                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Agenda item number 

            22    11, an action item, land acquisition in Cameron 

            23    County.  Mr. Bauer, will you please give your 

            24    presentation? 

            25                  MR. BAUER:  Madam Chairman and 


             1    Commissioners, this item represents a land 

             2    acquisition recommendation at the Arroyo Colorado 

             3    unit at the Las Palomas wildlife management area 

             4    in Cameron County.  The wildlife division recently 

             5    took over management of this facility as a 

             6    white-winged dove and riparian corridor habitat 

             7    tract.  Long-term development and public use is 

             8    depending on securing improved road access and 

             9    parking at the facility.  Two tracts, composing 

            10    approximately 14 acres, are recommended for 

            11    acquisition, using white-winged dove funds for 

            12    funding.  The two tracts are owned by two 

            13    individuals who are willing sellers.

            14                  Staff recommends the Commission 

            15    consider the motion before you to acquire two 

            16    tracts for roadway development, parking and 

            17    habitat restoration at the Arroyo Colorado unit of 

            18    the Las Palomas wildlife management area.  May I 

            19    answer any questions? 

            20                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Is there any 

            21    discussion? 

            22                  COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  I make a 

            23    motion to approve. 

            24                  COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  Second. 

            25                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  We have a motion 


             1    and a second.  All in favor? 

             2                  ("Aye.")

             3                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Any opposed?  

             4    Hearing none, motion carries.

             5                  (Motion passes unanimously.)

             6                  COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  Thank you 

             7    for the brief briefing. 

             8                  MR. BAUER:  Thank you.

             9    "The Executive Director is authorized to take all 
                  necessary steps to acquire approximately 14 acres 
            10    in Cameron County for roadway construction and 
                  habitat restoration to the Arroyo Colorado Unit of 
            11    the Las Palomas WMA."

            12       AGENDA ITEM NO. 12: ACTION - LAND ACQUISITION - 

            13       NUECES COUNTY.

            14                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Agenda item number 

            15    12, land acquisition, Mr. Francell, would you 

            16    please make your presentation?  This is land 

            17    acquisition in Nueces County.   We have someone --  

            18    oh, here he is.

            19                  MR. FRANCELL:  Commissioners, I'm 

            20    Jeff Francell.  This is a land acquisition item at 

            21    Mustang Island State Park in Nueces County.  

            22    Mustang Island State Park is on Mustang Island in 

            23    Nueces County.

            24                  We were here because of a grant 

            25    program that was initiated by the National Oceanic 


             1    and Atmospheric Administration.  It's administered 

             2    by the GLO.  Texas received 26.4 million for this 

             3    program.

             4                  The tract of land Parks and Wildlife 

             5    submitted a grant for is the Anderson tract, which 

             6    is an inholding.  It's surrounded on two sides by 

             7    Mustang Island State Park and the other side by 

             8    the bay, Corpus Christi bay.  Parks and Wildlife 

             9    submitted a grant to the General Land Office for 

            10    the acquisition of this tract and was awarded $1.2 

            11    million 45,000 from the Coastal Impact Assistance 

            12    Program specifically for the purchase of critical 

            13    habitat.  The property is a mosaic of prairies and 

            14    marshes and is located on the bay.  It is also a 

            15    potential wildlife habitat.

            16                  The property will be added to 

            17    Mustang Island State Park.  It will be managed for 

            18    habitat restoration and low impact recreation.  

            19    And funds for the acquisition are entirely funded 

            20    by the grant program.

            21                  Staff recommends that the Commission 

            22    adopt the following motion, that the executive 

            23    director is authorized to take the necessary steps 

            24    to acquire the 160 acres as an addition to Mustang 

            25    Island State Park. 


             1                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Are there any 

             2    comments from the Commission?  Is there a motion 

             3    on this item? 

             4                  VICE-CHAIRMAN ANGELO:  Move 

             5    approval.

             6                  COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY:  Second. 

             7                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  A second by 

             8    Commissioner Montgomery.  All in favor? 

             9                  ("Aye.")

            10                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Opposed?  Motion 

            11    carries.

            12                  (Motion passes unanimously.)

            13                  MR. FRANCELL:  Thank you.

            14                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Thank you, Jeff.

            15    "The Executive Director is authorized to take all 
                  necessary actions to acquire the 160 acres on 
            16    Mustang Island as an addition to Mustang Island 
                  State Park."
            17       AGENDA ITEM NO. 13: ACTION - LAND ACQUISITION - 

            18       HARRIS COUNTY.

            19                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Agenda item number 

            20    13, action item, land acquisition in Harris 

            21    County.  Mr. Ray, will you please make your 

            22    presentation? 

            23                  MR. RAY:  Commissioners, my name is 

            24    Ronnie Ray.  I'm with the Land Conservation Group.  

            25    This item is an acquisition of an 8.32 acre 


             1    inholding at San Jacinto Battleground State 

             2    Historic Site.  This tract is depicted by the 

             3    yellow outline tract, long, slender tract in the 

             4    middle of the park.  The recommendation is that 

             5    the executive director is authorized to take all 

             6    steps necessary to purchase approximately 8.32 

             7    acres in Harris County as an addition to the 

             8    state -- excuse me -- the San Jacinto Battlefield 

             9    State Historic Site.  I'll answer any questions. 

            10                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Are there any 

            11    comments from the Commission?  Do I have a motion?

            12                  COMMISSIONER AVILA:  Move approval.

            13                  COMMISSIONER RAMOS:  Second.

            14                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  All in favor?

            15                  ("Aye.")

            16                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Opposed?  Motion 

            17    carries.  

            18                  (Motion passes unanimously.)

            19                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Thank you, Mr. Ray. 

            20                  MR. RAY: Thank you.

            21    "The Executive Director is authorized to take all 
                  steps necessary to purchase approximately 8.32 
            22    acres in Harris County as an addition to San 
                  Jacinto Battleground State Historic Site."
            23                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  Mr. Cook, is there 

            24    any other business to come before this commission 

            25    today? 


             1                  MR. COOK:  No, ma'am, there is not. 

             2                  CHAIRMAN IDSAL:  I declare ourselves 

             3    adjourned. 

             4                         *-*-*-*-*

             5                   (MEETING ADJOURNED.)






















             1                 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

             2    STATE OF TEXAS   )

             3    COUNTY OF TRAVIS )


             5             I, MELODY RENEE DeYOUNG, a Certified 

             6    Court Reporter in and for the State of Texas, do 

             7    hereby certify that the above and foregoing 81 

             8    pages constitute a full, true and correct 

             9    transcript of the minutes of the Texas Parks and 

            10    Wildlife Commission on MAY 30, 2002, in the 

            11    Commission hearing room of the Texas Parks and 

            12    Wildlife Headquarters Complex, Austin, Travis 

            13    County, Texas.

            14          I FURTHER CERTIFY that a stenographic record 

            15    was made by me a the time of the public meeting 

            16    and said stenographic notes were thereafter 

            17    reduced to computerized transcription under my 

            18    supervision and control.

            19          WITNESS MY HAND this the 15TH day of JULY, 

            20    2002. 

            22             MELODY RENEE DeYOUNG, RPR, CSR NO. 3226
                           Expiration Date:  12-31-02
            23             3101 Bee Caves Road
                           Centre II, Suite 220
            24             Austin, Texas  78746
                           (512) 328-5557


             2    APPROVED this the ____ day of ____________ 2002.
             5                   Katharine Armstrong Idsal, Chairman
             7                   Ernest Angelo, Jr, Vice Chairman
             9                   John Avila, Jr., Member
            11                   Joseph B. C. Fitzsimons, Member
            13                   Alvin L. Henry, Member
            15                   Philip Montgomery, III, Member
            17                   Donato D. Ramos, Member
            19                   Kelly W. Rising, M.D., Member                  
            21                   Mark E. Watson, Jr., Member