Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission
Regulations Committee
May 29, 2002
Commission Hearing RoomTexas Parks & Wildlife Department Headquarters Complex
4200 Smith School Road
Austin, TX 78744
1
7 BE IT REMEMBERED that heretofore on the
8 29TH day of MAY 2002, there came on to be heard
9 matters under the regulatory authority of the Parks
10 and Wildlife Commission of Texas, in the commission
11 hearing room of the Texas Parks and Wildlife
12 Headquarters complex, Austin, Travis County, Texas,
13 beginning at 9:02 a.m., to wit:
14
15
16
APPEARANCES:
17 THE PARKS AND WILDLIFE COMMISSION:
Chair: Katharine Armstrong Idsal, San Antonio,
18 Texas, Chairman
Ernest Angelo, Jr., Vice Chairman, Midland,
19 Texas
John Avila, Jr., Fort Worth, Texas
20 Joseph B.C. Fitzsimons, San Antonio, Texas
Alvin L. Henry, Houston, Texas (Absent)
21 Philip Montgomery, III, Dallas, Texas
Donato D. Ramos, Laredo, Texas
22 Kelly W. Rising, M.D., Beaumont, Texas
Mark E. Watson, Jr., San Antonio, Texas
23
24 THE PARKS AND WILDLIFE DEPARTMENT:
Robert L. Cook, Executive Director, and
25 other personnel of the Parks and Wildlife
Department.
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1 MAY 29, 2002
2 *-*-*-*-*
3 REGULATIONS MEETING
4 *-*-*-*-*
5 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Good morning,
6 everyone. The meeting is called to order. Before
7 proceeding with any business, Mr. Cook has a
8 statement.
9 MR. COOK: Madam Chairman, a public
10 notice of this meeting pertaining to all items on
11 the proposed agenda has been filed in the office of
12 Secretary of State as required by Chapter 551 of the
13 Government Code in the first U.S. Open Meetings Law.
14 I would like for this action to be noted in the
15 official record.
16 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Thank you, Mr. Cook.
17 We will begin today with the regulations committee.
18 Mr. Fitzsimons?
19 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Thank you,
20 Madam Chair. Call the regulations committee to
21 order at 9:02. The first order is approval of the
22 committee minutes from the previous meeting. Do I
23 have a motion to approve those minutes?
24 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: So moved.
25 COMMISSIONER RISING: Second.
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1 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: All in
2 favor, aye. All opposed. Motion carries.
3 (Motion passed unanimously.)
4 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Our first
5 item, chairman's charges. Bob?
6 AGENDA ITEM NO. 1 - BRIEFING - CHAIRMAN'S
7 CHARGES.
8 MR. COOK: Mr. Chairman, thank you,
9 sir. I have a couple of items to report to you this
10 morning on our regulations committee chairman's
11 charges, both having to do with the implementation
12 provision of the Sunset Bill, Senate Bill 305. The
13 charges associated with Senate Bill 305 are assigned
14 as projects for this year's class of natural
15 leaders. They will be presenting the results of
16 their projects at a regular ^ lunch meeting each
17 Monday throughout the month of June. And we will,
18 of course, provide you a summary of that information
19 as we get those projects completed.
20 Another one of the issues under the
21 Sunset Bill was to conduct a comprehensive five-year
22 study of shrimp resources of the state, including
23 the shrimp population and the shrimp industry.
24 Coastal fisheries staff has held meetings with
25 members of the shrimp industry last week to obtain
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1 input on the major concerns facing the industry.
2 Meetings were held in five locations; Port Arthur,
3 Dickinson, Port Lavaca, Rockport, and Port Isabel.
4 268 people attended and voiced numerous concerns,
5 including the negative impacts of imports on
6 domestic prices and consumer demand, the need for
7 country of origin package labeling, presence of
8 banned antibiotics in imported farm-raised shrimp,
9 pollution, shrimp farm effluence, lack of marketing
10 in Texas wild caught shrimp, fraud and packaging,
11 new shrimp regulations, need for Gulf-wide
12 management, fresh water inflow issues, and increased
13 licensed fees. The input will be used to complete
14 the comprehensive shrimp studies required by the
15 Legislature. And that's all I have for you today,
16 sir.
17 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Thank you,
18 Bob. Any questions or comments for Bob on the
19 chairman's charges?
20 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Excuse me.
21 With respect to the shrimp issue there, do we have
22 any authority regarding some of those points that
23 you just mentioned; for instance, the question of
24 the imports, the antibiotics and that sort of thing?
25 Is that something we've got any say about?
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1 MR. COOK: I'll probably need some
2 help here from Hal. But I believe that the import
3 issue, health and food would be involved in that.
4 Hal, would you step up and help me out here? Most
5 of the other issues we do have -- we are involved in
6 and do have authority on. But, Hal, speak to that
7 one.
8 MR. OSBURN: Hal Osburn, Coastal
9 Fisheries Division Director. The Department of
10 Health in Texas is in contact about the antibiotics.
11 The Department of Agriculture in Texas has been
12 contacted about the imports. So I don't believe
13 that the Commission has any authority relative to
14 those issues.
15 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: That's what I
16 presumed, but I -- thank you.
17 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Any other
18 questions for Bob regarding those issues, chairman's
19 charges in Senate Bill 305. Thank you, Bob.
20 Our next order is a briefing from
21 Vernon Bevill on the Migratory Game Bird
22 Proclamation. Vernon?
23 AGENDA ITEM NO. 2 - 2002-2003 MIGRATORY GAME BIRD
24 PROCLAMATION - EARLY SEASON
25 MR. BEVILL: Mr. Chairman, members of
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1 the Commission, my name is Vernon Bevill and I'm the
2 game bird program director. I'm before you today to
3 provide you a briefing item on where we stand in
4 terms of the implementation of the 2002-2003
5 Migratory Game Bird Proclamation.
6 With regard to changes in seasons and
7 bag limits issue, as you recall, last year we went
8 through a very exhaustive process to look at the
9 dove season proposed. And we're not -- with the
10 changes made last year, we are not proposing any
11 additional changes to speak of this year. As you
12 can see, the -- with calendar shift, the direction
13 we're heading is to hold the line on dove season,
14 dates and bag limits.
15 With regard to the special white wing
16 season, we are proposing the first two full weekends
17 of September in the four counties along the
18 Rio Grande River. This an afternoon-only hunting
19 period for these -- for these white wing special
20 hunts.
21 At this time, we don't know what the
22 breeding population of blue wing teal is. There's a
23 threshold level that has to be met before we gain a
24 16-day teal season. There's a potential that the
25 ratio may be back -- put us back in the nine-day
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1 season. If we go back to a nine-day season, there's
2 a standing commission policy that we would open on
3 the third Saturday in September. So the dates that
4 you're looking at there would shift if we go back to
5 the nine-day season, move it forward, the opening
6 day, by one week.
7 At this time, the Fish and Wildlife
8 Service has not met to establish the formal seasons
9 and bag limits for early season species; as well our
10 Texas Register is still open for a few more days for
11 additional comments. So this is not an action item.
12 Mr. Cooke will have to make a decision on these
13 proposals in late June or beginning of July based on
14 the meetings yet to come and the deadline regarding
15 our Texas Register public comment period. If there
16 are any questions, I'd be glad to answer them.
17 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Vernon,
18 when is the service scheduled to meet?
19 MR. BEVILL: The Fish and Wildlife
20 Service meets about the third week in June. And
21 they will formalize the early season proposed at
22 that time.
23 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Any
24 questions for Vernon?
25 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: You're going to move
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1 up the teal season if necessary? Is that right?
2 MR. BEVILL: If the Fish and Wildlife
3 Service only grants nine days, the opening date
4 would --
5 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: You'll push it up
6 from the opening day forward.
7 MR. BEVILL: Yes.
8 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Okay. Thank you,
9 Vern.
10 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Any
11 indication that that might be the case on the teal?
12 MR. BEVILL: The teal population,
13 which has been at an all time high, as you know, for
14 the past several years, was sliding backwards. And
15 this year -- each year the Fish and Wildlife Service
16 conducts a breeding bird survey and pond counts in
17 May. The areas that they survey, that transects
18 that they survey for all species are dryer this year
19 than it's been. Parts of Canada are extremely dry
20 again. So we anticipate some reductions in duck
21 seasons in general. And the threshold for us to
22 have a 16-day teal season is a breeding population,
23 I believe, of 4.7 million. So right now it's up in
24 the air. It could well be that we've got plenty of
25 teal, but if they're in the wrong place due to a
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1 late spring, that I hear is taking place in that
2 part of the world, if they're in the wrong place and
3 don't get counted, the threshold is not met and we
4 would go back to nine days. So we're waiting to see
5 how that works out.
6 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Do we have
7 much feedback on our late dove seasons from last
8 year or people that -- we had a lot of comments
9 beforehand. Much after?
10 MR. BEVILL: We had, I think, 36
11 comments on dove season proposals for this year.
12 And as always, there's a little bit of a mixture.
13 Once you make a significant change in seasons and
14 bag limits and zone, there's a little -- you get a
15 little bit of a comment coming back to you, "Well,
16 we didn't want that change." But it's very minor.
17 If you will recall, we had thousands of comments
18 last year compared to only 36 this year. And it's
19 kind of a mixed bag. We heard a little bit from
20 those who liked 15 and 60. But we also heard from
21 people who liked the change, 12 and 70. So there
22 was no compelling reason to re-address this issue.
23 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Thank you,
24 Vernon.
25 MR. COOK: In general, I would say we
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1 heard very little. It was not a -- it was not an
2 issue one way or the other at this time. So we
3 could make an equal number mad and an equal number
4 happy, and we get a pretty good meeting.
5 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: That's par
6 for the course. That's good.
7 Thank you, Vernon. Mr. Chair,
8 there's no action item on that item. If there's no
9 other questions for Vernon, we'll move on to other
10 action item, Legislative Rules Review-Rulemaking
11 Chapter 65, Jerry Cooke.
12 AGENDA NO. 3: LEGISLATIVE RULES REVIEW-RULEMAKING
13 CHAPTER 65, SUBCHAPTERS A, N, AND Q.
14 DR. COOKE: Mr. Chairman and members,
15 my name is Jerry Cooke, game branch chief of the
16 wildlife division, and I'll presenting to you some
17 information relating to the rule review of Chapter
18 65.
19 Section 2001.039 of the Government
20 Code requires that each state agency in Texas review
21 all of their regulations at least once every four
22 years. At our January meeting, we did, in fact,
23 propose to do precisely that. Part of that rule
24 review is also to determine if the original
25 justification for a rule still exists. After the
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1 review, the rule is either readopted as-is, is
2 amended to correct some deviation in the rule, or to
3 simply repeal it.
4 During our review process, we found
5 three rules for which the original justification was
6 unclear. Its current justification was also
7 unclear. This regulation in question was to
8 establish closed season for game animals, game
9 birds, and fur bearers on the state-owned riverbeds
10 of Dimmit, Uvalde, and Zavala Counties.
11 In April, you authorized us to
12 publish a proposed rule change for those particular
13 sections in those proclamations. What the amendment
14 that was proposed would do is to set a date certain
15 in which -- in which the rule would cease to be
16 effective. In other words, September 1, 2003 is a
17 proposed date for which that rule would no longer be
18 effective. Should, through further study or further
19 review or department studies, we find that, in fact,
20 the justification is intact, then we'll come back
21 before you at a later time to reestablish the rule.
22 So basically the amendment of the
23 proposed motion would be the Texas Parks and
24 Wildlife Commission would adopt this change, should
25 you choose to do so on the morrow. If you have any
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1 questions, I will be more than happy to answer them,
2 if I could.
3 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Any
4 questions for Jerry on this issue?
5 If there are no further questions of
6 discussion, without objection I'll place this item
7 on the Thursday commission meeting agenda for public
8 comment and action. Thank you, Jerry.
9 DR. COOKE: Thank you, sir.
10 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Don't move.
11 DR. COOKE: I wasn't.
12 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: The next
13 was cervid disease issues. And Ken Waldrup from the
14 Texas Animal Health Commission will be joining me
15 and --
16 DR. COOKE: And also Karl Kinsel from
17 the Texas Deer Association.
18 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Morning. Thank
19 you-all for coming.
20 AGENDA NO. 4: CERVID DISEASE ISSUES
21 DR. COOKE: Again, my name is Jerry
22 Cooke, game branch chief of the wildlife division
23 presenting this item -- or introducing this them.
24 Sitting with me is Karl Kinsel with the Texas Deer
25 Association and Dr. Ken Waldrup with the Texas
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1 Animal Health Commission, also recognizing that
2 Commissioner Wood of the Texas Animal Health
3 Commission is present at the meeting, as well. And
4 we welcome her assistance in these items.
5 At the April commission meeting,
6 action concerning proposed definition of a healthy
7 condition for the Scientific Breeder Permit
8 Proclamation was proposed, along with prohibitions
9 related to actions by scientific breeder permit
10 holders whose facilities did not meet that
11 definition. This action was postponed primarily to
12 allow the Texas Deer Association the opportunity to
13 bring its members into a voluntary program with the
14 Texas Animal Health Commission.
15 This item is brought to you today to
16 allow some of our discussions and deliberations to
17 be clear to you. Dr. Waldrup is going to be
18 presenting the information that we've arrived at
19 related to surveillance across the state for chronic
20 waste disease and also to allow Karl to bring you
21 up-to-date with the activities of his organization
22 this morning. So Ken?
23 MR. WALDRUP: Mr. Chairman,
24 Commissioners, thank you very much on behalf of the
25 Texas Animal Health Commission for allowing us to
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1 come and present this to you. And what I'd like to
2 do is just visit with you a bit on the primary issue
3 here, and the major issue of concern, which seems to
4 be chronic wasting disease. Chronic wasting disease
5 is what we call a transmissible spongiform
6 incepalopathy of deer and elk and has been found in
7 captive in free-ranging animals in the following
8 states, as you can see there; primarily Colorado,
9 Wyoming, and Nebraska, comprise an area of where we
10 know that this disease is endemic in wild deer and
11 elk. Alberta and Saskatchewan, Canada have also had
12 problems with this, both in farmed and free-ranging
13 cervids. Thank goodness, at this point in time, CWD
14 has not been found in Texas. And additionally, to
15 this point in time, there's no evidence that CWD
16 poses a public health threat. But it still is a
17 very great concern to lots of sections of the public
18 regarding this disease and how it would affect deer
19 populations, elk populations, and even public
20 health.
21 As always, Texas has some unique
22 challenges with regard to this. Texas has the
23 largest population of free-ranging white-tailed deer
24 in North America. We also have the largest
25 populations of captive cervids in North America. We
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1 also have unique legal situation in that the
2 authority to regulate white-tailed deer rests with
3 your commission, while the authority to deal with
4 disease programs for livestock and for free-ranging
5 species resides with the Texas Animal Health
6 Commission in cooperation with USDA. So we sort of
7 have a split jurisdiction here.
8 But I also have to say it's been very
9 gratifying to see the cooperation that has come
10 together with the combined multi-agency approach.
11 We feel that there are really two facets to this
12 whole thing. First, to find the disease, if indeed
13 it is in Texas; and secondly, to deal with it should
14 we find it. Okay. In order to find it, we feel
15 there is really three main prongs to this: increased
16 surveillance in the free-ranging deer populations,
17 increased surveillance in captive deer populations.
18 And with regard to this commission that's primarily
19 the scientific breeder permit holders.
20 So in -- as a result, from lots and
21 lots and lots of discussions, we are proposing a
22 voluntary whitetail breeders chronic wasting
23 disease/tuberculosis complete herd monitoring
24 program. We developed some scenarios regarding the
25 disease that if indeed it is here, at what level
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1 should we expect to find it? And, again, a lot of
2 discussion, we recommend that we assume a 2 percent
3 prevalence. And what that means is that 2 percent
4 of the scientific breeder herds could have CWD. And
5 that's not an accusation. Please understand, that's
6 just a starting point. And if we make that
7 assumption, if we get 127 of the 467 current permit
8 holders enrolled, we should be able to find the
9 disease if it is indeed in that 2 percent level. We
10 would also incorporate tuberculosis surveillance in
11 samples that would be submitted for CWD.
12 The basic requirements of the
13 programs are identification of all the animals. But
14 that's really following right along with your
15 present regulations for scientific breeder permits.
16 A complete annual inventory, and this is an
17 animal-by-animal inventory. Submission of samples
18 from all deaths over 12 months of age. The other
19 aspect to this is that the herd owners bear the cost
20 of the routine testing. That is, if they have an
21 animal that runs into the fence and breaks its neck,
22 the owner is responsible for the cost of that
23 testing. Now, if they do report a suspect, we have
24 funds available that state or federal government
25 could support that testing.
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1 And basically at this point, that's
2 our recommendation, that we start at this 2 percent
3 level of surveillance in the scientific breeder
4 permit holders. I think there has been outstanding
5 progress made with regard to development of this
6 program and certainly the acceptance.
7 And we would like to acknowledge the
8 folks listed here. And there are others. I'm sure
9 I've left some important ones out. But these are
10 folks who have really risen to the occasion to be
11 involved in these discussions. Thank you.
12 MR. KINSEL: Karl Kinsel, Texas Deer
13 Association, executive director. And I'll give a
14 very quick chronological review of what we've done
15 since we were last asked here to participate at the
16 last commission meeting. After that commission
17 meeting, we immediately went forth to the Exotic
18 Wildlife Association Convention and to other
19 conferences as well as three regional meetings for
20 TDA. Our first chore was, in the matter of a month,
21 to make sure we got the information out and it was
22 understood. That is, by far, the hardest challenge,
23 is to make sure that people understand both the
24 necessity of our working together, as well as trying
25 to do the best we can on a voluntary situation when
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1 most people do not realize the importance, the
2 significance, nor that there is any legal necessity
3 for us to do that. We still want to be extremely
4 proactive and take the lead.
5 Going forward in that, just for
6 example, we put together so that we would make sure,
7 at the direction of Chairman Idsal, that we involve
8 all associations, not just ourself. It's important
9 that communication stays among all associations, as
10 well as private individuals. A meeting was held
11 prior to that at Joe Fitzsimons' offices where we
12 discussed things openly.
13 We've since put things up a bulletin
14 board on the Website so that any one individual as
15 well as any association could express their views.
16 That is certainly open to anyone. And you get
17 everything from radical comments to rationale on
18 there, but it's been a good thing so that we could
19 entertain it all.
20 Going forward from there, we expected
21 quickly basically in week three to try to meet with
22 Animal Health Commission. Had a little difficulty
23 in doing that, but it was at no fault of the
24 Commission. They had a lot of things they had to
25 get straight and has really been under the gun,
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1 Texas Animal Health Commission is. Texas Animal
2 Commission and Texas Parks & Wildlife met, laid out
3 some ground rules and some things, some things we
4 agreed with, some things we said were impossible but
5 we sure wanted to try to address how to make those.
6 Ken Waldrup, commend him, responded and drove four
7 hours and came to us and met with us. We worked
8 through them. I do not think there is a need to
9 address them specifically, but to let you know other
10 than the bulletin board and the communication,
11 basically what we are working on is the chronic
12 wasting disease, complete monitored herd cervidae
13 herd agreement. The things in there, there is
14 really nothing that we are opposed to. Basically
15 its presentation was very confusing to a lot of our
16 members that we went to, and rightly so, just in the
17 language, not the presentation.
18 So in meeting with Dr. Waldrup on
19 that, we wanted a clarification letter. Instead of
20 trying to amend that form that is already in place
21 for some elk breeders and some whitetail, we wanted
22 a clarification letter calling this a voluntary
23 whitetail, as well as explaining fee cost basis, as
24 well as putting in the buy levels as well as the
25 restriction levels on ident or classifications. I
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1 guess one of the things we really have not dealt
2 with entirely, but we've dealt with in some, as is
3 obvious on the bulletin board Website, is, most
4 people say it's hard for us to talk about the horse
5 without talking about the cart. We're putting the
6 cart in front of the horse when we talk about
7 identification and surveillance and testing when we
8 don't know what we're doing about depopulation and
9 indemnity. Although we know there are things in
10 place for that, to some degree, the completeness of
11 that is not there yet. But tremendous strides have
12 been made. We worked hard.
13 Even without the understanding of 11
14 issues, all of which are mostly minor, we still have
15 signed up 31 members and we've got a request form of
16 about 17 to 20 other members -- I don't remember
17 exactly -- on that, that says, yes, once we get this
18 clarification letter, we'll immediately sign up.
19 And we've had meetings and three different region
20 meetings we called immediately where we've had over
21 200 different people attend, call that 70 breeders
22 that would be willing to sign up also once they get
23 these clarifications. And I believe they are
24 forthcoming without any problem. And I hope we can
25 be in compliance with that. Thank you.
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1 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Mr. Regulations
2 Chairman, could I ask a question, please?
3 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Madam
4 Chair, please.
5 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Karl, thank you for
6 coming. And I do have a comment to follow up on
7 what Ken said about the tremendous cooperation that
8 we've seen between the various groups and the
9 leadership that so many people have been willing to
10 take to get us to where we need to be. I think it's
11 a wonderful example of leadership from many people
12 involved.
13 I'd like a little more fleshing out,
14 Karl, of the atmosphere within your membership in
15 terms of -- I'm gratified to hear that you've got up
16 to 70 people that may well sign on. How do you feel
17 going beyond the 70 to the hundred and -- what was
18 the -- the 127 that we would like to have for the 2
19 percent?
20 MR. KINSEL: I'd be glad to answer
21 that and I'll answer that a little bit more in
22 detail and I'll answer it very candidly, if I could.
23 Shut me off when time is running long.
24 But the feeling amongst a good many
25 of the members is, where is the science that tells
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1 us that this is mandatory or where is the legality
2 that makes us do that, and therefore, prejudicially,
3 why are we doing it when we are such an
4 insignificant number compared to four and a half
5 million deer in the state, and where is the State's
6 participation on this if, in fact, we're going to do
7 it. Is it, in fact, that we're doing it simply
8 because we can and they can't? You know what?
9 Regardless of the answer to all of those questions,
10 we're willing to try.
11 Those questions, those concerns,
12 those issues, which are often responsive to when you
13 threaten anyone's -- even theoretically threatening
14 anyone's love, and this is love. Very -- thirdly to
15 God and children, I think this is a passion for many
16 people, and for some it is an extreme livelihood,
17 their investments, their retirements. They're
18 looking forward to this entity of breeding deer on
19 small acreage as a way to produce an income on small
20 acreage, something that we've all strived for our
21 whole life, with the hardships within the cattle
22 business, which my family and many of them continue
23 to strive for, unless you're really big in it, it's
24 really hard.
25 So we're not just talking about a
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1 disease issue, although that's what we're focusing
2 on. We're talking about their ability to produce
3 income. That's the way they see it, the way they
4 feel it.
5 Reading the -- and to answer your
6 question specifically, when they read the chronic
7 wasting disease complete and monitored cervidae herd
8 agreement, one of the things that jumped out and
9 stopped them immediately was retagging and
10 reidentification of animals. There is nothing wrong
11 with the language here that Rick Smathers, I'm
12 assuming, has written, but it is not user friendly.
13 And so when people immediately look at that, they
14 say, well, what's wrong with our tagging system?
15 Why do we have to retag our animals? Why do we have
16 to put PA and RT and all these things on our tags on
17 our new animals?
18 In reading that, those
19 identifications go on the paperwork. The retagging
20 is not necessary because TP&W has a tagging system
21 that works and works well. It took 30 minutes
22 apiece to explain that to every one of the people
23 I've talked to.
24 So in the clarification letter, we'll
25 address that and won't have to explain it one at a
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1 time to everyone.
2 There was another issue in there that
3 was distasteful to them, but swallowable or
4 understandable, and that is, herd status. And
5 basically if someone is in it for three years, let's
6 say, and have been complying, they have level C.
7 They cannot go buy an animal. Let's say he's a 200
8 B&C three-year-old and they want him, but he's level
9 A. Without reducing their level C to level A any
10 addition into that herd, that's hard for a business
11 to look at, because it limits your business
12 opportunities.
13 So it took a good bit of convincing
14 to understand why we have to have it that way. But
15 common sense has prevailed. We understand that.
16 But we asked for the flip side of that, as well, not
17 just a negative of what would happen to us in a
18 downgrade. But let's use it as a positive, as well.
19 The carrot versus the stick, if you will, that if a
20 new breeder came into the business and he bought
21 deer from someone in level C, he would obtain level
22 C. Nothing wrong with that, makes absolute sense.
23 Just needs to be in here so that it helps them -- it
24 makes it a little more palatable.
25 Here are the issues that were still
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1 tough. Why should the breeder have to pay when
2 we're doing something voluntarily that is not
3 critical, and when we're doing it in excess of other
4 entities? We still swallowed that one, too.
5 There's no problem with that. We will pay. The
6 question is, how do we comply with what it is we're
7 going to pay for? What number of hours, how is it
8 submitted, what length of time?
9 Protocol for submission of a dead
10 animal is tough, at best, even if we know the
11 protocol and try to do it, because we've got to find
12 the animal before he dies, you know, almost to get
13 it in there. And animals just -- we just don't find
14 them that way. That's just not the way it tangibly
15 happens.
16 Ideally, to discover the disease,
17 although ideally we really don't want to, is if we
18 clinically can observe something and call the
19 State -- and the State has been very -- they have
20 said, look, in that situation we're paying all
21 costs, we're coming out, we're taking care of it.
22 So I would ask the TP&W to rest
23 assured that if we've got clinical situations, I
24 think we've got answers. In these other situations,
25 we've got hardships, but they may not be our
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1 clinical, real problems, anyway. They may be the
2 doe that ran into the fence the night before and we
3 didn't find her until two days later and then how do
4 we submit that and what do we do and it's too late?
5 And we always are used to paying a couple hundred
6 dollars and getting back from the labs in their
7 favorite word, inconclusive. But we can do that.
8 If the disease is covered is the
9 issue that we're going to have to really hardily
10 address. I agree we've got to get started with our
11 surveillance and monitoring. Our identification is
12 already in place. We know these animals better than
13 anyone knows their own. So I don't see any problems
14 there. But when you go to depopulate a herd and the
15 surrounding herds, be they in the adjacent pens or
16 someone's adjacent low fence property that extends
17 throughout the county, how do you do that? Ken has
18 an answer for us at this time, although it cannot be
19 cast in stone. It is opinion on how it could happen
20 or should happen. We needed that clarification for
21 people to at least understand. We know that minds
22 will change and things will change and hopefully
23 they will change for the better as we discover more.
24 But in the clarification letter, we will address
25 those.
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1 I can say, without reservation, that
2 the $3,000 cap on indemnity is severely insufficient
3 for a good many, if not the majority, of the
4 white-tailed breeder animals that are in captivity.
5 But for clarification also, we're putting in there
6 that there can be a hold order on the animals that
7 are suspect so long, then they cannot be transferred
8 or moved or anything so that we're not endangering
9 anything any further. But it's not an automatic,
10 well, we found one and we're going to come kill the
11 rest of them. That will not be tolerated at this
12 time. Should we address that further?
13 DR. WALDRUP: Well, basically,
14 Commissioners, if we do find a positive, okay, then
15 there actually are two choices. The population is
16 no longer (inaudible). It's offered. That's the
17 primary means that's been used with captive herds
18 here in the US to try to deal with the infection.
19 But, for example, there's an elk herd in Oklahoma
20 that was diagnosed four years ago. It's still
21 there. Now, it's under a permanent quarantine. And
22 that may be the other choice that the producer in
23 this case has.
24 At the moment, we do not have a live
25 animal test. Madam Chairman, you asked me the other
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1 day about that. The very next day, we got a call
2 from a very large veterinary diagnostic company,
3 requesting some negative samples for us. They're
4 trying to develop a test. So, you know, hopefully
5 we could have a live animal test at some point in
6 time. If we found a positive, then we could go test
7 the rest of those animals and simply remove the
8 other positives. We don't have that today. Let's
9 hope we have it tomorrow.
10 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: Are you
11 aware of any national effort to really accelerate
12 the scientific research in this area to have a
13 unified national effort to figure this out?
14 DR. WALDRUP: Oh, yes, sir.
15 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: What is
16 going on there?
17 DR. WALDRUP: As of right now, I
18 think the twenty -- on the 23rd of this month, there
19 was a national group that was convened primarily of
20 Department of the Interior and USDA. But they have
21 also requested assistance from state veterinarians,
22 including Dr. Logan. I have an item for review on
23 my desk as soon as I get home submitting comments to
24 that. So there is a national effort ongoing.
25 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Ken, could
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1 you discuss a little bit the options if we do find a
2 positive, maybe comparing the situation in Wisconsin
3 today, where we do know -- maybe have some idea of
4 what may lay ahead in the even we do find some
5 positives? You mentioned depopulation, number one.
6 Permanent quarantining, number two.
7 DR. WALDRUP: Permanent quarantine, I
8 think, would be an option for, say, a high fence
9 facility, scientific breeder. The situation in
10 Wisconsin was initially found in free-ranging deer.
11 So, again, I -- that's a fair template for what we
12 should expect here. If we find a positive in
13 interfering for deer on public land, I think some
14 very intensive sampling would be appropriate. And
15 that's exactly what Wisconsin has done, but I think
16 that's been to their advantage. The first animals
17 that were found was three out of 26. And roughly 10
18 percent, that got a lot of people very worried.
19 There are over a thousand samples now
20 and only 14 positives. That's down around 1
21 percent. Okay. That's a whole lot easier to
22 handle.
23 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: All right.
24 You mentioned the 127 of the 426 scientific breeder
25 quarantine as being that of perpetuity to pick up an
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1 incidence of occurrence of 2 percent. How about in
2 free-ranging, because we've talked about the testing
3 of animals killed in wildlife management areas,
4 other public hunt areas where we have the
5 opportunity to do that? What would that require?
6 DR. WALDRUP: Commissioner, it's
7 basically mathematics. There's some equations that
8 you plug into your -- number one, your estimated
9 population, and then again this expected prevalence
10 level. And literally it just spits you a number out
11 at the bottom. And so per each management area or
12 county, that's what we're having to do.
13 And right now Dan Baca and I and Dr.
14 Cooke are working on a risk analysis that's
15 primarily based on the import of deer and elk in two
16 certain counties and the deer population within
17 those counties, and trying to just establish a
18 ranking of where we can best target this
19 surveillance.
20 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: So if I
21 follow you, you look at counties where there have
22 been importations -- and how many years of records
23 to you have there?
24 MR. DABNEY: For elk, we have since
25 1997.
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1 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: All right.
2 And then you would have a monitoring system of
3 free-ranging and wildlife management areas or public
4 hunts that we have in that area that we're
5 following?
6 DR. COOKE: Well, basically,
7 regardless of the surveillance approach we take,
8 there's going to be a dollars and cents value on it.
9 And you can only go as far as you have dollars for.
10 However, this information can accumulate through
11 time. It's not like you've got to go get 5,000
12 animals next year. We get it over a period of time,
13 we'll be getting the same assessment, because this
14 is a slow disease. This is not one of these acute
15 type things like blue tongue or tyleria.
16 So, for instance, in our last
17 conversation we were talking about, over a period of
18 time, if we could look at as many as 200 animals per
19 ecoregion, particularly focusing on these counties
20 of highest risk, the surveillance that will be done
21 by the breeders certainly will count in favor of
22 that, which is -- could be substantial. We have
23 management area hunts in some of those areas.
24 That's where we're going to focus to begin with.
25 And if there is USDA money made available, at some
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1 future date, we'll add that to our effort.
2 But basically, as Karl points out,
3 what we're doing now is just touching the water the
4 first time. We're just looking to see what we have,
5 and we're assessing what we could get to. But there
6 will be tests of animals taken in our public hunts.
7 COMMISSIONER WATSON: Well, Jerry, in
8 all your conversations now about the scientific
9 breeder permits, which are the white-tails, so
10 what's your position of what's -- what's the
11 position of EWA and what are you doing about that?
12 DR. WALDRUP: Excellent question,
13 Mr. Watson. We certainly recognize, number one,
14 Karl said to me very early in this piece, it feels
15 like y'all are picking on us. And we -- my agency
16 feels like the scientific breeders have a couple of
17 risk factors. Number one, they're the primary group
18 that bring in deer, white-tails from out of state
19 and they're the ones that release them. And Karl
20 has graciously accepted, yep, we do.
21 The elk question is a huge one.
22 Certainly if you look across the US, transport of
23 farmed elk has been the primary way that this
24 disease has gotten from one state to another.
25 At the moment, we have only estimates
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1 of where elk even are in Texas. Depending on who
2 you ask, some people say Texas has more elk than
3 Wyoming does. So my agency is looking at a number
4 of ways that we can do this. Certainly the North
5 American elk breeders comprise the greatest number
6 of herds that are in our present program. But we
7 are trying to look at some ways that we can advance
8 that surveillance, you know, on elk within Texas.
9 But it is a big question.
10 COMMISSIONER WATSON: So -- and what
11 is the attitude of the EWA?
12 DR. WALDRUP: I'll have to refer that
13 one to Karl.
14 MR. KINSEL: As a board member of
15 EWA, I will try to address that, but I'm sure there
16 are others here in the audience that can address it
17 as well or better.
18 I think the attitude of EWA most
19 strongly expressed at the last TAHC meeting was that
20 the closure of the borders was detrimental, not
21 beneficial to surveillance particularly and probably
22 encouraged the disease, not discouraged it.
23 Understanding, being involved in the
24 business for over nine years myself, I do understand
25 that sentiment. There are those that do take
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1 advantage of that. For us to try to police ourself,
2 you can count on that. It's being done, from the
3 extent of the way the good old boys take care of
4 each other to turning them in if they can't. So we
5 certainly want to ask the law enforcement to
6 prosecute and carry further. And there have been
7 rumors that some people have been turned in and no
8 action, per se, has been taken. We would love to
9 know of that action. We'd love the public to know
10 of that action because only if they know those rules
11 are enforceable and severe enough can we stop some
12 of this illegal importation.
13 While I've got the mike for a minute,
14 let me take a few other liberties and address
15 something else that was charged at TAHC, which I
16 think is right on target. And I'd like to ask it of
17 TPWD and challenge TPWD that I personally, and I think
18 80 percent of my membership, at least, do not feel
19 that this disease, even if it is discovered, is
20 extremely devastational to us in comparison to the
21 hysteria that is devastational to us. It is typical
22 of an agency, particularly TAHC, to put out
23 statistical, oh, my God, things, informational
24 pieces. I think if we could get ahead of the
25 hysteria at this point and put out informational
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1 pieces that address that, maybe this could be
2 naturally occurring, maybe it can't. A lot of
3 things other than we have an epidemic coming towards
4 us, and that is what the general public sees.
5 So I know that TDA will do its part
6 in press releases, public education, seminars,
7 everything we can to address that. We have it under
8 control if it hits us. And it's probably not going
9 to hit us. And it may not be devastating if it does
10 hit us. Those are the messages I'd ask TAHC and
11 TPW, all associations and all individuals to carry.
12 Thank you.
13 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Jerry, I
14 believe you --
15 DR. COOKE: There was one other item
16 that I wanted to point out. At the last Texas
17 Animal Health Commission meeting, they adopted their
18 permanent importation suspension that's similar to
19 our own. In other words, it's going to require
20 their commission's action to remove it. It's
21 open-ended. But they also published rules for
22 adoption at a later meeting, which would essentially
23 say to bring an elk, a whitetail, mule deer, or a
24 black-tailed deer into Texas, it would have to come
25 from a facility that had had a total herd monitoring
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1 program for five years. Basically if they have been
2 monitoring for five years, they haven't brought
3 anything in, you know, outside of that kind of a
4 testing protocol, they ain't got it, is what it
5 boils down to.
6 When that adoption is in place, that
7 will address the elk issue, as well as the
8 white-tailed and mule deer issue, and I think we'll
9 all be in a position to start saying, okay, we've
10 got some entry requirements that's monitorable, it's
11 repeatable, it's evaluatable, and maybe the
12 suspension is no longer necessary. But that will be
13 your decision and the decision of the Animal Health
14 Commission.
15 COMMISSIONER WATSON: So, Jerry,
16 you're comfortable that CWD can't show up in axis
17 deer or fallow deer.
18 DR. COOKE: It is not -- they can't
19 make it go. To my knowledge, the tests involved
20 taking filtered fluids from diseased animals and
21 injecting it into the brains of animals. If you
22 can't produce it that way, it ain't going to happen.
23 Now, sika, red deer, that's another matter. They're
24 so similar to elk, it would shock me if it didn't go
25 into those animals. But as far as the other species
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1 are concerned, I'm quite comfortable -- certainly
2 fallow deer are not even in the picture.
3 DR. WALDRUP: Mr. Watson, there is --
4 USDA is sponsoring one ongoing long-term experiment
5 with elk in Colorado. It's a five-year study and
6 we're just through the first year of it. So, you
7 know, the question of these other exotic deer is,
8 again, a good question. There is a large pile of
9 evidence that says CWD doesn't go into pronghorns,
10 doesn't go into bison, doesn't go into cattle,
11 doesn't go into sheep, doesn't go into goats. It
12 seems to be a deer problem. Now, within that
13 spectrum of deer species, you know, as Jerry has
14 pointed out, we do have some questions on some. And
15 it may be a while before some of these get answered.
16 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: It seems to
17 me that a number of the tough decisions that could
18 have to be made, you know, determine -- or hinge on
19 is it naturally occurring, how does it transmit,
20 what is it transmitted to. These kind of decisions
21 are all going to be based on the science. How are
22 we monitoring (inaudible) the best work that's being
23 done right now so that we're ready and knowledgeable
24 and current?
25 DR. COOKE: As usual, this is one of
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1 these joint efforts. And Ken, et al., are doing a
2 wonderful job of keeping track of what everybody is
3 doing in terms of current science.
4 One thing I did do is go back and
5 look at our old records of this department. We at
6 one time had a wildlife disease project. It was
7 sponsored by a cooperative contract between the
8 Department of Veterinary Pathology at Texas A&M and
9 our agency. And it existed for about eight years.
10 During that eight years, 601 white-tailed deer
11 collected. These were sick animals, not random
12 samples. These were sick beasties that we were
13 concerned about. Dr. Robinson, who was the
14 veterinarian on the project at the time -- the
15 project was created to address two issues, one is
16 poor reproduction in prong horn and the other one
17 was something called circling disease in white-tail.
18 And Nick Robinson was seriously concerned that maybe
19 this was a jump of scrapy in the deer. And so he
20 intentionally sectioned every brain of every deer
21 that was collected by our project. He didn't tell
22 us about it, but it was there in his records. And I
23 talked to him personally the other day to verify it,
24 that basically out of that 601 deer that was
25 collected across Texas, every one of them sick,
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1 every one of them suspicious animals. Not a one of
2 them had had encephalopathy, not one. So, you know,
3 the notion that it's been around forever is not
4 borne out by those facts. Now, whether or not we
5 missed it is quiensabe. But circling disease was an
6 issue of serious concern in Texas in the '60s and
7 '70s, and that was specifically focused on.
8 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: How are we
9 systematically working, though, the work that's
10 being done around the country so that we've got the
11 best information to make decisions as we go along?
12 DR. WALDRUP: That primarily funnels
13 through me.
14 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: And how are
15 you feeding that to our department?
16 DR. WALDRUP: At least weekly
17 contacts with Jerry.
18 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Thank you.
19 Donato?
20 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Mr. Kinsel, you
21 heard Mr. Cooke talk about a five-year monitoring
22 program, perhaps as a method by which deer
23 conventionally come back to Texas. Have you
24 discussed that with your organization? Do you have
25 any thoughts as to how you-all would accept that if
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1 that was established?
2 MR. KINSEL: We have not had any
3 numerous negative comments with regards to that, no.
4 If, in fact, there is reason to believe, and
5 certainly if there's science to back up at some
6 point in time that this is a transmittable disease
7 and is coming into our state because of that, we
8 have no problem with the border closures. I do
9 understand, though, they do have problems with the
10 border closures when it's -- when those things are
11 not present yet. So that's not a direct answer to
12 your question other than that, no, we do not have a
13 problem with whatever science makes us understand.
14 And we will.
15 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Has your
16 organization done any type of research or consulted
17 with anyone that would dispute what the Texas Animal
18 Health Commission and our staff is telling us with
19 regards to the disease?
20 MR. KINSEL: We have not, but we are
21 starting to look at that. I know EWA has taken the
22 lead on that and taken a look at it very seriously.
23 We'll stay in contact with them to see if we agree
24 or disagree.
25 But let me add one thing to that, if
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1 I might. And I think it answers your same question
2 in that when we go to -- we already have
3 identification, we already have surveillance because
4 we already are surveilling. When we go into a
5 voluntary mortality testing program, we're going to
6 do the best we can. But first we've got to have a
7 clarification letter; second, we've got to have
8 protocol. These things take time, maybe even months
9 before protocol is given to us because I don't know
10 if either one of these gentlemen can tell me what we
11 would do if we found a dead deer in the morning and
12 how we would box it and where does it go and how
13 long does it take.
14 And I know Dr. Scott Blueguy, a
15 veterinarian and private practitioner, I believe,
16 that's here today, did send in two animals within 24
17 hours afterwards. One came back with whatever it
18 was, the other one came back inconclusive. So if a
19 veterinarian can't do it that fast, how is us
20 individuals going to do that protocol. So we will
21 need that before you can expect some more direct
22 answers from us on that.
23 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: But do you
24 agree, though, that in the absence of some evidence,
25 some expert evidence from your organization or some
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1 expert, we have no choice but to accept what the
2 Texas Animal Health Commission is telling us and all
3 the other experts. I mean, we can speculate and we
4 can theorize, but it sounds to me like you don't
5 have any objective evidence from anywhere that would
6 dispute what staff is telling us at the Texas Animal
7 Health Commission.
8 MR. KINSEL: I do not at this time,
9 sir, no.
10 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Thank you.
11 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Thank you.
12 COMMISSIONER ANGELO : I have a
13 question about the testing process and what the cost
14 of the test is, how many people are qualified to do
15 the tests, how valid the results are statistically
16 and those kind of related questions with respect to
17 the testing.
18 MR. KINSEL: Good question.
19 DR. WALDRUP: Commissioner, I'd be
20 glad to address that for you. We're actually in --
21 on the very cusp of a change here in Texas. Texas
22 Veterinary Medical Diagnostic Lab received a grant
23 last year from USDA to install machinery and train
24 personnel on a technique called
25 "Immunohistochemistry." The sensitivity and
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1 specificity of this test is that it is extremely
2 sensitive. It's also very specific, so it's the
3 ideal thing right now for diagnosis of CWD. It,
4 again, works on, at this point, on brain stem, you
5 know, as the other test.
6 The original test was called
7 histopathology. And that's a standard technique
8 that -- you take a brain sample that's fixed in
9 formaldehyde, you cut it in various thin sections,
10 it's stained and it's observed under the microscope
11 by a trained pathologist. And all they were doing
12 was looking for this spongy change, that is, the
13 holes in the brain.
14 This was not a particularly good test
15 in that other things can cause a spongiform change,
16 toxic plants, just autolysis if the animal has been
17 dead a while. Immunohistochemistry is far superior
18 to this. And, as I say, literally any day now, the
19 TBMDL will be on-line to do that. And we will be
20 changing our surveillance program to
21 immunohistochemistry away from histopathology. As
22 far as who does the test, again, this is a lab test.
23 The samples are submitted by sometimes a producer,
24 usually by an accredited veterinarian. And they go
25 to the lab and then the lab does their thing.
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1 So I actually feel very confident, if
2 we got a test positive, that it truly is a positive,
3 it's not a false positive. The other advantage to
4 immunohistochemistry is that you can -- it actually
5 still performs very well on tissue that's slightly
6 autolized. It can't be just totally rotten, but you
7 can use tissue that's really too far gone for
8 standard histopathology. So the tests that we're
9 going to be using is, I think, the best thing that
10 there is available in the world at this point in
11 time.
12 COMMISSIONER ANGELO : What's the
13 cost going to be of the test?
14 DR. WALDRUP: Again, that cost right
15 now -- TVMDL hasn't given us a cost yet. The
16 standard histopathology that we've been using, the
17 laboratory fee was $25. They're fairly certain the
18 immunohistochemistry will be less.
19 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: How many deer
20 in these herds, how many deer on an annual basis
21 percentage-wise would you expect to lose in some
22 kind of standard mortality of...
23 DR. COOKE: Program-wide, there's
24 approximately 19,000 deer in breeder pens. And
25 across the program annually, routinely it's about 12
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1 percent mortality. So that would be a substantial
2 fraction. Even, you know, half of that many, you
3 know, where we could use as a test.
4 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: So when you
5 say, though -- when you say that the animal could
6 have been dead for some time, how long a time are we
7 talking about? Could it be days or hours or --
8 DR. WALDRUP: Commissioner, it
9 depends on the season. You know, in December, you
10 might be able to find him three days later and
11 things are still okay. In August, it may be 12
12 hours. On situations like that, we just have to do
13 the best we can.
14 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Thank you.
15 COMMISSIONER RISING: I have one more
16 question. Is the new test -- is it more accurate at
17 detecting deer that have been dead for a couple of
18 days versus a fresh specimen? Does it have a better
19 sensitivity post mortem as far as delayed...
20 DR. WALDRUP: Commissioner Rising,
21 with the standard histopathology, yes, sir, that you
22 almost needed to take the samples almost two minutes
23 after it died. This test will certainly give us a
24 better tool for those that may have been dead a
25 while.
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1 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Thank you.
2 Well, bringing it back to -- this is for Karl and
3 Jerry, I guess. Bringing us back to where we left
4 off at the last meeting, I didn't exactly follow
5 your arithmetic. How many confirmed participants do
6 you have today, Karl?
7 MR. KINSEL: 19 that have been
8 submitted in to Rick Smathers. I have another 11
9 and another 13, 11 that have signed up on what I put
10 together, which is a TDA member request for
11 application for TAHC Form 0008. Basically they said
12 it's not clear enough to understand and sign, but we
13 certainly want to comply and we want to do. When
14 you get a clarification letter from Drs. Waldrup and
15 Cooke, then we'll understand, we'll believe and
16 accept and we'll sign up.
17 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Okay. How
18 many confirmed today?
19 MR. KINSEL: 19 that are turned in.
20 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Okay. All
21 right. And somehow we got to 70 at one point, and
22 I'm not sure how we got there.
23 MR. KINSEL: 11 that are signed up
24 on this.
25 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: All right.
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1 MR. KINSEL: We've got another --
2 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: What
3 percent is that right there? Excuse me. The total,
4 the 30, if you assume the 11 are all going to sign
5 up, what's the percent or total is that?
6 COMMISSIONER WATSON: That's 7
7 percent. Out of the 459, that's about 7 percent.
8 DR. WALDRUP: We already have either
9 8 or the 9 already in our program in addition to the
10 numbers that Karl has.
11 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: All right.
12 Then you mentioned another 13. And what were those
13 13?
14 MR. KINSEL: Those 13 are people who
15 have sent in emails to me saying, yes, we want in
16 the program, but here are my questions. I already
17 know the answers to those questions. But they're
18 going to need to see it in writing and it is coming
19 in the form of a clarification letter. I guess what
20 we're going to try to do, and I think both of these
21 gentlemen certainly understand because at the TDHC
22 meeting we sat down with it, that clarification
23 letter solves a lot of the questions and immediately
24 once that's available and goes out -- I asked for it
25 of Ken between dark and daylight one day last week
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1 before I went to a meeting of 70 of my own breeders
2 to have that so I could say that here it is. The
3 only thing I could do is say, here is my
4 understanding, here is a form, force nobody to do
5 anything. And they gave me a whole list at that
6 meeting. And there's about 70 on there that said,
7 yes, if that's a clarification letter, when you get
8 it, then we're on.
9 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Okay. So
10 at 30, we're roughly a quarter of the way there.
11 And where were you in April when we left this issue
12 in --
13 MR. KINSEL: Zero.
14 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: You were at
15 zero. So you've gone from zero to 25 percent in
16 that month?
17 MR. KINSEL: Yes, sir.
18 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: All right.
19 Of your goal of 127?
20 MR. KINSEL: Yes, sir.
21 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Do you feel you
22 can get the signature without some knowledge about
23 what the indemnification or what the process is
24 going to be?
25 MR. KINSEL: We know something about
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1 indemnification now. It's not real palatable at the
2 most, but it is there. And it is if the federal
3 register and we've got copies of that and it is
4 going to be summarized in layman's terms by
5 Dr. Waldrup in this clarification letter. And, yes,
6 I feel we can get to that 127 with that
7 availability.
8 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: And how
9 soon?
10 MR. KINSEL: Within 60 days after he
11 gets me that letter. So I think that's where we
12 are. Because it will take individual contact.
13 Let me address one other challenge
14 with you, though, that's hard. And Jerry and I have
15 both talked about it is, TDA has 881 members, which
16 there's only 282, if I remember the numbers correct,
17 that are scientific breeders that have given us
18 permit numbers. There may be some more of our
19 members that didn't put their number on their form
20 and there are and we've got to go back individually
21 and find these scientific breeders.
22 What we would love to have is a list
23 of all 467 scientific breeders so we can do our job
24 better and go after those to get them signed up.
25 But understand, they're not TDA members. They're
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1 scientific breeder members. And there is a privacy
2 act with regards to release of that information. So
3 asking me for 127 out of 280 is pretty tough. But I
4 can still probably do that. If I can get the other
5 ones or if I can work through TPWD to get that
6 information out, I believe that would be extremely
7 beneficial.
8 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: We can
9 notify of this voluntary program, can't we?
10 DR. COOKE: We can. The entity, TWA,
11 is also making efforts through their membership.
12 One of the things that we offered in the first
13 conversation about this, if they wanted to
14 contact -- if the Texas Deer Association, for
15 instance, wanted to contact all the scientific
16 breeders themselves, all that we would have to have
17 is the stuff sealed in an envelope and a stamp on
18 it, and we'll address them all. And they will go
19 out that day. You know, that's not a problem.
20 That's not a violation of the privacy act.
21 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: It's
22 turning over the list. Okay.
23 DR. COOKE: It's turning over the
24 list.
25 MR. KINSEL: And we were prepared to
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1 do that and we're still prepared to do that. But we
2 know that this agreement, with the not user friendly
3 things on here, would not be beneficial without the
4 clarification letter on top of it.
5 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: I guess I
6 hadn't really -- I hadn't realized that you weren't
7 dealing with a hundred percent of them. And so
8 that's a real loophole. We need -- we really need
9 to make a big effort to get the rest of those people
10 contacted and involved in the program.
11 DR. COOKE: As I said, the Texas
12 Wildlife Association is in the process of contacting
13 all of their members. And there's not going to be
14 very many left.
15 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: After that
16 move?
17 DR. COOKE: Yes, sir.
18 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Well, in
19 light of the fact this has been done 25 percent in
20 six weeks with just his membership is a pretty good
21 movement.
22 On a procedural note, just in order
23 to move my committee along here, I need to ask
24 Jerry, if we were to -- in light of the progress
25 that Karl has shown here and his representations to
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1 us to continue to even improve that progress, if we
2 were to revisit this issue in August, how would that
3 be handled, as far as posting in the Register?
4 DR. COOKE: Action could be taken in
5 August on the current posting, on the current
6 publication. However, there's only one day to
7 spare. In other words, we'd have to leave this
8 commission meeting and send it to the Secretary of
9 State in one bottle, and we've messed up.
10 If the Commission is going to
11 determine to postpone further consideration, my
12 recommendation would be that we withdraw our current
13 publication and republish it. And that would allow
14 you the flexibility to review it, not only in August
15 but also in November, if you chose to do that.
16 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: But that
17 would not prevent us from taking any emergency
18 action that might be necessary in the interim?
19 DR. COOKE: Absolutely not.
20 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Well, I
21 would recommend that if we can defer that to
22 tomorrow's and have a motion, I would recommend we
23 pursue that.
24 If I could, Karl, I want to thank
25 you. You're not done yet. The pressure is on and
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1 the pressure is going to stay on.
2 MR. KINSEL: Yes, sir.
3 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: You've
4 risen to a task that I recognize it wasn't easy.
5 And it's not going to get any easier, I don't think,
6 as we learn more about these diseases.
7 Having said all that, I remind you
8 that all those scientific breeder permittees chose
9 to be scientific breeder permittees. And animal
10 health is going to continue to be part of their
11 responsibility. And I appreciate you addressing
12 that responsibility.
13 MR. KINSEL: Let me address one other
14 thing quickly, though, because I'll go back and some
15 things we say we always have to be reminded. But,
16 Chairman Idsal, at the TSCRA, you said you hate to
17 see programs, voluntary or otherwise, that are
18 instituted in any form or fashion that do not have
19 time elements on them. We're not so ignorant that
20 we do not understand that when we scientifically
21 don't know that we can't put a time element on it.
22 But I can promise you that the breeders want to, at
23 some time, know that there is an end to this
24 economic situation that we're under if we do not
25 incur CWD. For example, in our TV programs that we
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1 went through with the fallow deer, we tested some
2 30,000. And after a while, everybody said, you
3 know, there's no end to this deal. Why do I
4 continue to it? It's cost us thousands and
5 thousands of dollars per operation. So I would like
6 that the TP&W to consider for our next meeting that
7 if we are in this program, give us a 24-month window
8 or something that we can address and so long as CWD
9 is not there and we do not find it, that we are not
10 mandated to any requirements after that. We need
11 some window of out, not just in.
12 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Thank you.
13 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Thank you.
14 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: If there
15 are no further questions or discussion, without
16 objection, I'll place this item on our Thursday
17 commission meeting agenda for the public comment and
18 action. All in favor?
19 Do you have a -- you gave me that
20 look.
21 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: No.
22 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: All right.
23 All opposed? Motion carries.
24 (Motion passed unanimously.)
25 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: And I
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1 believe, unless there is any other business to come
2 before the regulations committee, we stand adjourned
3 at 10:10.
4 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Before continuing on
5 with the conservation committee, I would like to
6 take a five-minute break.
7 (RECESS.)
8 *-*-*-*-*
9 (MEETING ADJOURNED.)
10 *-*-*-*-*
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1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
2
3 STATE OF TEXAS )
4 COUNTY OF TRAVIS )
5 I, MELODY RENEE DeYOUNG, a Certified Court
6 Reporter in and for the State of Texas, do hereby
7 certify that the above and foregoing 55 pages
8 constitute a full, true and correct transcript of
9 the minutes of the Texas Parks & Wildlife Commission
10 on May 29, 2002 in the commission hearing room of
11 the Texas Parks & Wildlife Headquarters Complex,
12 Austin, Travis County, Texas.
13 I FURTHER CERTIFY that a stenographic
14 record was made by me at the time of the public
15 meeting and said stenographic notes were thereafter
16 reduced to computerized transcription under my
17 supervision and control.
18 WITNESS MY HAND this the 5th day of August,
19 2002.
20
21
MELODY RENEE DeYOUNG, RPR, CSR NO. 3226
22 Expiration Date: 12-31-02
3101 Bee Caves Road
23 Centre II, Suite 220
Austin, Texas 78746
24 (512) 328-5557
25
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