Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission
Outreach and Education Committee
November 6, 2002
Commission Hearing RoomTexas Parks & Wildlife Department Headquarters Complex
4200 Smith School Road
Austin, TX 78744
7 BE IT REMEMBERED, that heretofore on the 6th day of
8 November, 2002, there came on to be heard matters under the
9 regulatory authority of the Parks and Wildlife Commission
10 of Texas, in the Commission Hearing Room of the Texas Parks
11 and Wildlife Headquarters Complex, beginning at 2:27 p.m.
12 to wit:
13 APPEARANCES:
14 THE PARKS AND WILDLIFE COMMISSION:
15 OUTREACH AND EDUCATION COMMITTEE:
16 Katharine Armstrong, Austin, Texas, Commission
17 Chair
18 Joseph B.C. Fitzsimons, San Antonio, Texas
19 Ernest Angelo, Jr., Midland, Texas
20 John Avila, Jr., Fort Worth, Texas
21 Alvin L. Henry, Houston, Texas, Committee
22 Chair
23 Philip Montgomery, Dallas, Texas
24 Donato D. Ramos, Laredo, Texas
25 Kelly W. Rising, M.D., Beaumont, Texas
26 Mark W. Watson, Jr., San Antonio, Texas
27 THE TEXAS PARKS AND WILDLIFE DEPARTMENT:
28 Robert L. Cook, Executive Director, and other personnel of
29 the Parks and Wildlife Department
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1 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Commissioner Henry, would
2 you convene the Outreach and Education Committee meeting,
3 please?
4 COMMISSIONER HENRY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
5 We're convening the Outreach and Education
6 Committee.
7 I would ask for approval of the minutes from
8 our prior meeting, and that would be the meeting of May
9 29. There was no meeting in August. Do I have a motion
10 for approval?
11 MR. WATSON: So move.
12 COMMISSIONER HENRY: Is there a second?
13 COMMISSIONER RISING: Second.
14 COMMISSIONER HENRY: Thank you. The minutes
15 are approved.
16 Chairman's charges, Mr. Cook?
17 MR. COOK: Thank you, Mr. Henry.
18 The charge up for comment today is the
19 implementation of the provisions of our sunset bill. You
20 may remember that Senate Bill 305, our sunset bill,
21 required the Department to evaluate our outreach and
22 education efforts and to report the findings to the
23 commission. Scott Boruff's presentation is the executive
24 summary of that report.
25 COMMISSIONER HENRY: Mr. Boruff?
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1 MR. BORUFF: Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, my
2 name is Scott Boruff, Deputy Executive Director of
3 Operations. Steve Hall is with me; he's the Director of
4 our Education and Outreach program.
5 I'd like to start out by saying first of all
6 that we've been taking a pretty hard look at our outreach
7 and education efforts for really the last year or so in
8 light of Senate Bill 305, which required us to do so. In
9 particular, in the last two or three months in my new
10 role and in the role that I served in as an interim
11 position over the administrative sections, we really have
12 taken an aggressive approach to developing a project plan
13 for this project much like we did the business
14 implementation plan relative to our other management
15 reviews.
16 One of the things that started early on after
17 SB 305, was an analysis of what we had. As you may or
18 may not know, one of the problems that was identified was
19 that it's hard to kind of get our hands around what we
20 actually do in this Agency relative to outreach and
21 education.
22 The good news from my perspective is that
23 there's a lot of it going on out there and that most of
24 it's appropriate, and we'll talk about that in a minute.
25 There were some things that we -- as we went forward, we
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1 identified some needs to tighten up and re-look at the
2 way we do things, and that's what we'll be talking about
3 here as we move forward.
4 Many of the outreach and education activities
5 that we participate in are small, and many of them are
6 pretty significant. As Commissioner Henry knows -- and
7 many of the rest of you -- we are currently involved in
8 the Sheldon Lake Environmental Education Center, which is
9 a tremendous agency-wide, multi-divisional effort to put
10 together a pilot educational state park that will really
11 serve as the prototype for both the state and the rest of
12 the country in terms of a significant outreach and
13 education effort.
14 Even more interesting to me in my new role: As
15 I've been out and around the state working with the real
16 people that do the real work for this Agency, I've been
17 quite struck by the fact that almost everybody I've been
18 out there with does education and outreach.
19 I spent a couple of days riding around with the
20 game warden a couple of months ago, and I was really
21 pleasantly surprised at how much time that particular
22 individual took to talk to people about our mission and
23 what we do. And it was the same with the state park
24 staff when I visited with them -- and the wildlife staff.
25 So what has become apparent to me that has
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1 probably been apparent to many people in this Agency for
2 a long time is that education and outreach is really a
3 part of this culture; it's not confined to one division,
4 nor is it confined to one branch. It really is something
5 that this Agency does and every person out there should
6 be encouraged to do. And that was one of the basic
7 findings that we found as we moved forward.
8 Specifically, though, in the last three months,
9 we have put together a project plan and are moving down
10 the road to try to get the plan formalized and to get our
11 ducks in a row, if you will, to kind of move forward in
12 the new methodologies that we're going to describe here
13 in a minute. In an effort to do that, a couple of things
14 have happened.
15 First of all, Chairman Armstrong has put
16 together an advisory group that's going to be advising us
17 of our constituents and friends that will come in and
18 work with the staff to try to pull together what we do in
19 a more cohesive fashion.
20 Second of all, internally, we have put together
21 an education and outreach task force, which -- by the
22 way, we're excited about the fact that it also is broad
23 based. It has members from all seven resource divisions,
24 all of whom do outreach and education activities. And we
25 have liaisons with a couple of the administrative
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1 divisions. So this is genuinely an Agency-wide task
2 force that's looking at education and outreach issues.
3 The two primary deliverables that we charged
4 that group with were, first of all, response to sunset.
5 We were required to come up with a specific response to
6 three or four specific issues that sunset had charged us
7 with, and those were primarily issues of coordination and
8 analysis to ensure that we were not redundant or poorly
9 managing the costs of those programs and to look at where
10 the coordination effort internal to the Agency should be
11 located: Which division should it be housed in.
12 So the first deliverable was the sunset
13 response, which went out last week, and I'm confident
14 that it addresses the issues that sunset asked us to
15 address. We will be glad to forward to you or share with
16 you the detailed document. It's quite lengthy, and I'm
17 not going to -- since this is a briefing, I'm not going
18 to spend a lot of time with that today.
19 But the bottom line is: We looked at things
20 like, Are the outreach and education activities that we
21 do here in the Department consistent with the mission.
22 That was one of the charges from the sunset, and the
23 answer was, By and large, yes, they are consistent with
24 the mission. In fact, we found virtually no outreach and
25 education programs that we deemed to be inappropriate or
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1 aimed at something that the Agency would not see as part
2 of its mission.
3 We were also charged to look at coordination.
4 This is an area where we probably were the weakest. And
5 it probably represents the area of our outreach and
6 education that puts us at risk from a perception
7 perspective out there in the community.
8 Really, the bottom line is that the programs
9 are doing what they're supposed to do by and large --
10 that's not to say they can't be done better -- and that
11 we may need to refocus our efforts in some areas. The
12 problem really was that the business model that was used
13 to track, create, report on and monitor what we do are
14 very diverse out there; there is no standard model or
15 there was not a standard model at the point we were
16 looking at it.
17 So programs were borne differently. Some of
18 them were borne at very low levels, and some of them were
19 borne at very high levels. There were different
20 reporting mechanisms. Some of the programs reviewed
21 themselves regularly, and some of the programs didn't
22 review themselves in many, many years. Some programs had
23 strong evaluation components that looked at their
24 effectiveness and issues like that, and some did not.
25 So the real focus for us as we looked at this
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1 report that we were putting together is: How can we pull
2 together a business system that allows us to do the right
3 thing and report on it in a way that makes us look
4 credible to the people that we need to report to.
5 So the first thing was the sunset response,
6 which I think we've complied with. Secondary to that is
7 what we are calling an education and outreach plan, which
8 is going to be the comprehensive plan that we try to --
9 we'll have at least the initial draft ready in January.
10 This will be the entire document which comes
11 out of the effort of -- the hand-in-hand effort between
12 the internal group task force and the advisory group as
13 we go forward, and it will lay the groundwork and set us
14 a road map, if you will, to move down the street towards
15 where we want to be with outreach and education.
16 Back to the assessment, this was an important
17 piece for us. I think that Steve's shop looked at some
18 34 major programs and did a complete analysis of those
19 programs in terms of what they do, "Is it appropriate,"
20 and so forth and so on. And that detail's available.
21 We -- obviously, we've put together the team.
22 One of the major decisions we have made -- and it was
23 accomplished last Friday -- is moving Steve's shop,
24 Outreach and Education, to the Communications Division
25 within the Agency. As we looked at what education and
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1 outreach does and the importance of that and the
2 importance of reaching out to our constituents as a
3 whole, we felt like it was a natural fit for Lydia's shop
4 in Communications.
5 So that has happened. As of November 1, Steve
6 reports to Lydia. Lydia, of course, reports to Drew
7 Thigpen. So the next time we do this, Mr. Thigpen will
8 get to get up here and give you this presentation.
9 As I said, we really essentially asked Steve to
10 put together what in the industry is known as a PMO, a
11 Project Management Office, specifically for the task of
12 managing these things like a project. And by that, I'll
13 share with you a couple of things that we want to happen.
14 First of all, we would like the plan to have clearly
15 identifiable milestones and deliverables, and that is:
16 What are we supposed to be getting out of the activities
17 that we do.
18 In order to assure that but not take away the
19 flexibility of the different divisions to identify what's
20 an appropriate outreach and education for them, what we
21 are going to do is require every major outreach and
22 education effort to be chartered. It's a formal
23 document, it's recommended by the Project Management
24 Institute, it's usually a one-pager, and it identifies
25 the authority to move forward. And it would have to be
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1 signed off on at a relatively high level, probably a
2 division director level, in the Agency so that we won't
3 just have folks out there creating education projects
4 because they think it's the right thing to do.
5 There will, however, be a process for them to
6 send forth their ideas, have those float up the chain of
7 command, and they will be officially recognized once the
8 charter is approved. The charter will also help us to
9 address issues like redundancy.
10 Obviously, as the charters come up to Steve's
11 shop, we'll be looking at those and analyzing those. And
12 if there's already a charter that says, "We're going to
13 do this," then we won't charter another activity that
14 does it unless there's some very good reason to do so.
15 So we will create essentially a central registry through
16 the Outreach and Education Branch, where every authorized
17 outreach and education project is registered, if you
18 will, and has a charter.
19 Along with the charter, each outreach and
20 education activity will be required to have a plan, and
21 the plan will include things like timelines,
22 deliverables, frequencies of review and those kinds of
23 items -- and these are fairly standard in the project
24 management industry -- which is going to standardize
25 essentially all of these activities across the Agency.
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1 Obviously, we have some activities going on in
2 the Agency, like our national leaders groups, that have
3 given us information about how we might do this better.
4 And we will continue to look for those kinds of
5 information as we move forward.
6 I'm going to stop there and see if you've got
7 any questions for myself or Mr. Hall.
8 COMMISSIONER HENRY: Any questions or comments?
9 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: I guess I wonder
10 what -- how we sort of approach this from a policy
11 standpoint when you say, Go get them. Is there a budget
12 and a series of objectives that we have that will come
13 back up to the Commission to say, This is where we want
14 to go with this area? Or how we -- it sounds like we
15 have great management tools aimed at it. How do we react
16 from a policy standpoint?
17 MR. BORUFF: Well, of course, that's at your
18 discretion to tell us how you would like that to work,
19 but, clearly, I guess what we want is -- by early January
20 is to have a plan in place that we can either move
21 forward on or bring back for Commission approval.
22 Whatever you direct us to do we're certainly willing to
23 do.
24 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: And so --
25 MR. BORUFF: There are --
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1 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: Go ahead. I'm sorry.
2 MR. BORUFF: There are generally, Mr.
3 Commissioner, pretty good goals and objectives for most
4 of these activities. I will tell you, I mean, there was
5 a perception that there might not be, because we didn't
6 have a system in place -- a business system -- to track
7 them and make sure that they were demonstrable. But by
8 and large, we didn't see many outreach and education
9 activities kind of going off willy-nilly. So I'm not --
10 I mean, we're certainly willing to do whatever policy
11 approach you're --
12 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: Well, I just thought
13 as part of sunset that we'd sort of somewhere have some
14 sort of sit-down and say, "Okay, here's what we want to
15 do with this," or, "Here's where we're going, and here
16 are our goals." That methodology certainly gives you a
17 way to execute it. Because I wasn't there at the
18 beginning of some of these, I'm a little ignorant of all
19 the things that we're doing, and I couldn't tell you
20 exactly other than in a very broad sense what our goals
21 and objectives are.
22 (Simultaneous discussion.)
23 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: I was hoping to learn
24 more about what we're doing and why we're doing it and
25 where we're going as part of the sunset review process.
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1 COMMISSIONER HENRY: Will this plan list the
2 goals and objectives of the various entities?
3 MR. BORUFF: Absolutely. In fact, the charter
4 and the plan would be very detailed in terms of what the
5 goals and the objectives --
6 COMMISSIONER HENRY: So --
7 MR. BORUFF: -- and the deliverables would be.
8 COMMISSIONER HENRY: -- I think what you're
9 asking is that those should be made available to the
10 Commission at possibly the January meeting that he's
11 talking about?
12 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: Yes, sir. But it's a
13 little late to react if we're going to submit it in
14 January.
15 MR. BORUFF: January might be a little early,
16 because we may not be through with the plan early enough
17 in January to present. So my --
18 COMMISSIONER HENRY: Well, you can come let us
19 know what you're doing or in what direction you're going.
20 MR. BORUFF: Sure. We can do that.
21 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: I would like as a
22 Commission to ask for the broad direction -- sunset's
23 direction.
24 COMMISSIONER HENRY: That's what I'm
25 suggesting. That --
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1 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: You know, in a broad
2 term, policy -- that's our job to set policy. But
3 what -- is it all hunting? Is it all fishing? Is it all
4 conservation? Is it children oriented? Is it -- you
5 know, what really -- of all of the choices we've got in
6 education and outreach, how are we weighting them? What
7 are -- what is the balance we're trying to strike in
8 where we're headed here?
9 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: Phil, let me try to at
10 least answer part of that question as I see it. We've
11 got a new advisory board that is taking shape right now.
12 Some -- we've got quite a few people that have agreed to
13 serve on it, and we will be asking some more. And these
14 will be experts in the field of education. They will be
15 landowners; they will be people that are interested in
16 this subject and have some experience in it that, I hope,
17 will help us in formulating some of our policies.
18 I use a lot of the advisory -- we all do rely
19 on our advisory boards to those ends, but I think -- one
20 of the ideas that have -- I've toyed with is, for
21 instance, if it is a policy of the Commission to ensure
22 that hunting and fishing have a future in this state, how
23 do we communicate the desire to increase hunting and
24 fishing recruitment into our education and outreach area
25 in a way that results in more hunting and fishing?
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1 If we believe that our urban populations are
2 not receiving sufficient educational instruction in the
3 area of water conservation or land conservation or the
4 like: What kind of programs do we have in place so that
5 we could help in educating our children properly so they
6 can, hopefully, become good and responsible citizens.
7 And I'm also interested in education and
8 outreach with help from the advisory group to review what
9 we are teaching, the actual curriculum that's out there,
10 and to be sure that what it is we are teaching can be
11 supported by sound science and the like.
12 And so I think that what staff has done an
13 excellent job doing is getting our ducks in order so that
14 we can effectively implement the policies of education
15 and outreach.
16 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: I agree. I mean, to
17 me, those are a number of the major questions. I just
18 would like to see the Commission as a group get together,
19 debate that out and balance it out and decide as a group
20 how we're going to do it and turn to the advisory board
21 for advice and additional ideas and use the
22 methodology -- management methodology. But I didn't hear
23 in there where we were going to do that as a group. I
24 think that's something sunset calls for us to do and we
25 ought to do.
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1 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: I believe all our
2 Commissioners are invited to advisory group meetings. I
3 would encourage all of you all to participate in those.
4 And any other format that we can participate in, I sure
5 would encourage all the Commission to do that.
6 This is a very important task for us; it's
7 something that's going to endure much longer than we do,
8 and I hope we've got it or are attempting to set it up in
9 a way that we can make a real difference.
10 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: One of the concerns that
11 I've had every time we've talked about education and
12 outreach is some measure of accountability so that at
13 some point in time, we know if a particular program,
14 whatever it is, is actually delivering results, somewhat
15 as the Chairman mentioned. So it looks to me like you've
16 set up a really good framework here for getting us in a
17 position to be able to do that.
18 MR. BORUFF: Yes, sir.
19 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: That -- in the areas that
20 I've worked in in the past, in other situations where
21 outreach particularly was a function of the organization,
22 the biggest problem we've always had is measuring success
23 or failure of the effort and not just making it a
24 bottomless pit for money or time. So to the extent that
25 what you are proposing here can deliver on that, I think
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1 it will be a tremendous advancement for the Agency, and I
2 hope that that's where we can go with it.
3 MR. BORUFF: I do, too, Commissioner. I would
4 like to say one thing, though. I do think that this
5 branch has been trying to be all things to all people
6 many times, and that's something that I don't think we
7 can continue to do and be successful at anything. And so
8 one of the things we do need is some direction from the
9 Commission about, What are those high-priority things
10 that we want to use these limited resources to do.
11 Some of those, as you know, are statutorily
12 mandated. Our boater education and our hunter education
13 are things that we have to do unless the law changes.
14 However, on the rest of the things, we have pretty
15 discretion about where we're going to go, but we don't
16 have many resources.
17 And one of the reasons -- at least, my
18 perception is -- that we're kind of fragmented out there
19 now is because we've been trying to do too much with too
20 little without good direction from the Commission. So
21 anything you could do to help give this shop clear
22 direction about what those priorities are, if we match it
23 with good management, I think we'll get good results.
24 COMMISSIONER HENRY: Okay. We won't keep this
25 going too long -- oh.
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1 Excuse me, Commissioner.
2 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: Well, I appreciate
3 what you're saying.
4 Madam Chairman, what I'd like to do, though, is
5 have a session where management will come up and say,
6 "Here's the range of options; Here's the range of
7 policies, and here are the dollars attached to them," and
8 set some priorities and say, "Okay, we understand you
9 can't do everything, but here are the major objectives we
10 think you ought to; Now take that and implement it." So
11 just -- I still would like to see us have that kind of
12 session.
13 One thought about this. To me, it's a great
14 methodology. Depending on the tone you all set, it can
15 be very intimidating for people doing forward projects.
16 And I hope the tone is that we are -- at least, speaking
17 for myself on the Commission, I'm perfectly happy for us
18 to fail in a lot of things that we try because, if you
19 don't fail, you're not going to try things.
20 So to me, failure is not and should not be a
21 stigma; it should be the quality of the conception and
22 the effort and intent. If through measurability it's not
23 succeeding, then you cut and move to the next thing. But
24 I think we ought to have the attitude that we're willing
25 to try a lot of things and we're willing to get out there
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1 and innovate maybe with some cheap experiments but not
2 have this be so intimidating a procedure that people
3 won't try and won't succeed.
4 MR. HALL: I think, internally, it has been a
5 hand-in-hand type of a procedure. So I would think the
6 tone is -- always has been good and will continue in that
7 vein. But from an internal perspective, you know, we do
8 assessments.
9 And Mr. Angelo said it right in that sometimes
10 in an educational sense, your benefits or your measures
11 appear ten and 20 years later, and it has always been a
12 tough one to get your -- a handle on. And I think that's
13 why I respect this PMO process because I think us -- as
14 educators, we've really actually failed to look at the
15 business side of what we do because we're more into it
16 from the program side.
17 And so it will -- I think it will give us the
18 model that we've actually needed to fine-tune or, at
19 least, try to get a handle on these cats in terms of --
20 you know, you've got 34 programs out there, and some of
21 them permeate the whole Department. In some programs,
22 biologists are involved and game wardens are involved.
23 Expo is a fine example, I mean, and just
24 knowing the dollar figures that are involved in the --
25 you know, the staff time and the dollar figures is quite
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1 an effort in some of these areas and some of these
2 programs. Some of them are fairly well defined and good
3 programs.
4 But I will remind the Commission, too, that you
5 have a book out there for -- a publication entitled
6 "Recreation Program Opportunities." That's a good place
7 to start in terms of figuring out what the programs are
8 and what they accomplish, and then we can go from there
9 in terms of with this education and outreach plan as far
10 as, you know, the more specific dollar figures associated
11 with the programs, and things like that.
12 COMMISSIONER HENRY: I was going to suggest
13 that possibly at the January meeting, even though you may
14 not have a plan formalized, you could give us an updated
15 report on where things are at that moment and where you
16 see them moving. And that would give the Commissioners
17 an opportunity to have some input based on not only their
18 thinking but the other meetings and things that have
19 taken place.
20 I'm encouraged with the developments that are
21 taking place so far. I was delighted that there is a
22 home for Outreach at this point and even more delighted,
23 in all honesty, that it was in Communications, because of
24 the good work that we've done so far with that department
25 and Lydia.
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1 I don't know, Mr. Thigpen; I'm just assuming
2 that since Bob brought him on board, he's okay. But --
3 (Laughter.)
4 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: He's a great guy.
5 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: He'll do.
6 COMMISSIONER HENRY: So I mean I'm hopeful that
7 everything will turn out there. But I wanted to say
8 particularly to the staff team that has been working on
9 this that I think they've done some very good work. And
10 like Phil and others, I'm interested in, you know, the
11 pop, pop, pop and seeing what we get, you know, for our
12 money. And we'll know what's working right and what's
13 working wrong.
14 But so far, I'd like to commend you guys for
15 the work that you've done. I think it's very good.
16 MR. BORUFF: Thank you. And I would like to
17 say that, you know, I have the highest regard for Mr.
18 Thigpen. I've only worked with him for two months, and I
19 think it's going to be an exciting opportunity for the
20 two of us to be able to demonstrate to the rest of the
21 Agency that these don't have to be turf issues, that
22 these can be shared issues and that all of these
23 divisions can come together and benefit and value from
24 these kinds of exercises.
25 COMMISSIONER HENRY: Are there any other
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1 questions from the Committee?
2 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: One suggestion, Mr.
3 Commissioner, that I would like to make or just mention.
4 There will be a meeting set of the Education
5 and Outreach Advisory Group, which will be the first
6 meeting since Scott and the group completed their work.
7 We were -- we started out to have that meeting first but
8 then realized that we had to comply with sunset and that
9 that was going to kind of give us some direction in and
10 of itself and, having completed that, get sort of a
11 system set-up that we could agree was a good one.
12 And now we will have a meeting of the Education
13 and Outreach Advisory Board sometime, hopefully, before
14 Thanksgiving; if not, in early December. And I feel
15 certain that we'll get some more direction from them, and
16 I do encourage all the Commissioners to attend that would
17 like to. I'll be sure that you're made aware of the
18 date.
19 And then, at the January meeting, we'll
20 continue this discussion and get us on down the road to
21 getting it all melded together and moving forward.
22 COMMISSIONER HENRY: Any other questions?
23 (No response.)
24 COMMISSIONER HENRY: Thank you, gentlemen.
25 MR. BORUFF: Thank you.
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1 MR. HALL: Thank you.
2 COMMISSIONER HENRY: That concludes the meeting
3 of the Education and Outreach Committee, Madam Chair.
4 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: That concludes the meeting
5 for today. Do I need to make any other statements?
6 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: That's it.
7 CHAIRMAN ARMSTRONG: All right. I'll see you
8 tomorrow.
9 (Whereupon, at 3:00 p.m., the meeting was
10 concluded.)
ON THE RECORD REPORTING
(512) 450-0342
.
24
1 C E R T I F I C A T E
2 MEETING OF: Texas Parks and Wildlife Department
3 Outreach and Education Committee
4 LOCATION: Austin, Texas
5 DATE: November 6, 2002
6 I do hereby certify that the foregoing pages,
7 numbers 1 through 24, inclusive, are the true, accurate,
8 and complete transcript prepared from the verbal
9 recording made by electronic recording by Penny Bynum
10 before the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department.
11 12/10/02
12 (Transcriber) (Date)
13 On the Record Reporting, Inc.
14 3307 Northland, Suite 315
15 Austin, Texas 78731
ON THE RECORD REPORTING
(512) 450-0342