Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission
Public Hearing
Aug. 31, 2000
Commission Hearing RoomTexas Parks & Wildlife Department Headquarters Complex
4200 Smith School Road
Austin, TX 78744
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1 TEXAS PARKS AND WILDLIFE COMMISSION
2 PUBLIC MEETING
3 AUGUST 31, 2000
4
5 BE IT REMEMBERED that heretofore on the 31st day of
6 August 2000, there came on to be heard matters under
7 the regulatory authority of the Parks and Wildlife
8 Commission of Texas, in the Commission hearing room of
9 the Texas Parks and Wildlife Headquarters Complex,
10 Austin, Travis County, Texas, beginning at 9:35 a.m.,
11 to wit:
12
13 APPEARANCES:
THE PARKS AND WILDLIFE COMMISSION:
14 Lee M. Bass, Fort Worth, Texas, Chairman
John Avila, Jr., Fort Worth, Texas
15 Nolan Ryan, Alvin, Texas
Alvin L. Henry, Houston, Texas
16 Carol E. Dinkins, Houston, Texas, Vice-Chair
Ernest Angelo, Jr., Midland, Texas
17 Katharine Armstrong Idsal, Dallas, Texas
Mark E. Watson, Jr., San Antonio, Texas
18 Richard W. (Dick) Heath, Carrollton, Texas.
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20 THE PARKS AND WILDLIFE DEPARTMENT:
21 Andrew H. Sansom, Executive Director and
Other personnel of the Parks and Wildlife
22 Department.
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1 OTHER APPEARANCES:
2 Ms. Lisa Birkman, representing Brushy Creek MUD
3 Mr. Lemuel Randolph, representing City of Sugar Land
4 Ms. Anne Ochoa, representing City of Lago Vista
5 Mr. Jose Munoz, representing Sebastian MUD
6 Mr. Ilario Rincones, Community of Sebastian
7 Mr. Bill Wallace, County Commissioner Pct. 4,
8 Chambers County
9 Mr. W. E. Irby, Commissioner Pct. 3, Chambers County
10 Ms. Cora Alexander, representing City of Houston
11 Parks and Recreation
12 Mr. Phillip T. Golden, Legal Counsel, representing
13 Senator Lucio's Office
14 Mr. Charles Caillouet, Galveston, Texas
15 Mr. Edwin Price, representing Lady Joyce
16 Ms. Donna J. Shaver, Ph.D., representing U.S.
17 Geological Survey Padre Island National Seashore
18 Mr. Les A. Hodgson, representing Marco Sales, Inc.
19 Mr. Larry Hodgson, representing Marco Sales, Inc.
20 Ms. Mina Williams, Corpus Christi, Texas
21 Ms. Carole Allen, representing HEART
22 Mr. Jose Antonio Ramirez, representing National
23 Industrial Fisheries Chamber-Mexico
24 Ms. Pat Suter, representing Coastal Bend
25 Environmental Coalition
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1 Mr. Wesley Blevins, representing Calhoun County
2 Texas Shrimpers
3 Mr. John Shinault, Seadrift, Texas
4 Ms. Teri Shore, representing Sea Turtle Restoration
5 Project
6 Mr. Terry Ricks, representing Texas Seafood Prod.
7 Mr. James Davenport, representing Calhoun County
8 Texas Shrimpers
9 Ms. Pam Baker, representing Environmental Defense
10 Mr. Jeff Noel, representing E&J Noel, Inc
11 Mr. Robert W. McFarlane, representing Calhoun
12 County Texas Shrimpers
13 Mr. Pete Aparicio, representing Commercial Shrimp
14 Mr. C. L. Standley, representing Shrimp Advisory
15 Committee
16 Mr. Ronald N. Hornbeck, representing Hornbeck
17 Seafood Company
18 Mr. Richard Moore, representing PISCES
19 Mr. Phillip Lara, representing Bay King Seafood
20 & Shrimpers Food Company
21 Mr. Brian Sybert, representing Sierra Club
22 Mr. Ken Kramer, representing Sierra Club
23 Mr. Julius Collins, representing Texas Shrimp Assn.
24 Mr. Richard Morrison, representing Calhoun County
25 Shrimpers
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1 Mr. Thomas E. Lambright, Calhoun, Texas
2 Ms. Deyaun Boudreaux, representing Texas Shrimp Assn
3 Ms. Terri Curtis, representing Campeche Seafood
4 Products
5 Mr. Ray Allen, representing Coastal Bend Bays &
6 Estuaries Program
7 Mr. Ivo Goga, representing Campeche Seafood Products
8 Ms. Wilma Anderson, representing Texas Shrimp Assn.
9 Mr. Jeff Vu, representing VASA
10 Ms. Thuy Vu, representing VASA
11 Mr. Ellis Gilleland, representing Texas Animals
12 Mr. Muriel Tipps, Cedar Lane, Texas
13 Mr. Benny J. Gallaway, representing LGL Ecological
14 Research Assn., Inc.
15 Mr. David Owens, University of Charleston Grice
16 Marina Lab
17 Mr. Tim Jones, Austin, Texas
18 Mr. George Deshotelt, Matagorda, Texas
19 Mr. Raymond C. Mathews, Jr., representing Texas
20 Academy of Science, Threatened or Endangered
21 Species Section
22 Mr. Dennis Wittnebert, Sr., representing Calhoun
23 County
24 Mr. John Grant, representing Colorado River MWD
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1 Mr. Rick Van Dyke, representing Central Texas
2 Herpetology Society
3 Mr. Jerry Johnson, representing Texas Deer Assn.
4 Mr. Marty Berry, representing Texas Deer Assn.
5 Mr. Joe McCullough, representing Texas Deer Assn.
6 Mr. David K. Langford, representing Texas Wildlife
7 Assn.
8 Ms. Sarah McReynolds, Groesbeck, Texas
9 Mr. James and Patricia Manuel, Big Lake Bottom
10 Landowners, Palestine, Texas.
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1 AUGUST 31, 2000
2 *****
3 PUBLIC HEARING
4 *****
5 9:35 a.m.
6 CHAIRMAN BASS: Good morning. I'd like
7 to call this meeting of the Parks and Wildlife
8 Commission to order, please. I apologize for our
9 tardiness this morning.
10 First order of business with Mr. Sansom.
11 Would you please read our opening
12 statement.
13 MR. SANSOM: Mr. Chairman and members of
14 the Commission, a public notice of this meeting
15 containing all items on the proposed agenda has been
16 filed in the office of the Secretary of State as
17 required by Chapter 551 of the Government Code. This
18 is referred to as the Open Meetings Law, and I would
19 like for this action to be noted in the official record
20 of the meeting.
21 Ladies and gentlemen, we welcome you
22 here today. We have a number of items on our agenda
23 that I know are of great interest to all of you, and we
24 are certainly anxious to hear your comments and have
25 you participate in the meeting.
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1 The Chairman, of course, is in charge of
2 the meeting, and, as usual, I'll kind of be assisting
3 him today in sort of moving things along and making
4 things smooth.
5 I want to make sure that anyone who has
6 asked to speak or desires to speak today has filled out
7 a card, because the Chairman will use the cards to ask
8 the speakers to come to the podium. So make sure
9 you've filled out a card.
10 When he calls your name, please, come to
11 the podium, state your name and who you represent if
12 someone other than yourself. The Chairman will also
13 call the second person to speak, and if you could move
14 to the back of the room when your name is called, then
15 we can move the process along much more quickly.
16 Each person is going to be given three
17 minutes to speak as is our usual custom. I will keep
18 track of the time with this traffic light here and
19 notify you, as the light changes, when your three
20 minutes are up. When your time is up, please, resume
21 your seat so that others can have a chance to speak.
22 If a commissioner asks you a question,
23 then that's not going to count against your three
24 minutes, or if they talk among themselves or ask the
25 staff questions during the time that you are at the
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1 podium, that will not count against you.
2 I want to reiterate that although we
3 have a lot of things that are -- that we feel very
4 passionate about, each one of us, that we're not here
5 to argue with each other or to make statements that are
6 uncomplimentary or -- and I really want to make sure
7 that everyone shows the proper respect, not only for
8 our Commission, but for our staff and for the other
9 members of the audience.
10 If you have something that you would
11 like to present to the Commission in writing, please,
12 give it to Mrs. Estrada here on my right, and she will
13 make sure that the commissioners have it.
14 So thank you very much for being here
15 today and we look forward to hearing your testimony.
16 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, Mr. Sansom.
17 First order of -- Next order of business
18 would be the approval of the minutes from our previous
19 meetings, which have been circulated for review, if
20 there are any additions, deletions, or a motion to
21 approve them.
22 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Mr. Chairman, I
23 gave a few remarks or comments about typographical
24 errors, and with those changes, I would move the
25 approval of the minutes.
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1 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: I had a -- I guess
2 it's a typographical error, too, but it's -- that does
3 affect the meaning, to some extent, on Page -- Let's
4 see what page that is -- 20. On Line 5, it should say
5 "move approval from consent agenda," instead of "to
6 consent agenda."
7 CHAIRMAN BASS: With those corrections
8 noted, any further comment?
9 Chair to entertain a motion.
10 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Motion.
11 CHAIRMAN BASS: A second?
12 COMMISSIONER HEATH: Second.
13 CHAIRMAN BASS: Motion and a second.
14 All in favor? Any opposed? Thank you very much.
15 (Motion carries unanimously.)
16 CHAIRMAN BASS: The second order of
17 business would be the acceptance of gifts which have
18 been distributed thereof. Are there any questions
19 or comments concerning these items?
20 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Move approval of
21 the list.
22 CHAIRMAN BASS: Motion for approval.
23 COMMISSIONER IDSAL: Second.
24 CHAIRMAN BASS: And a second. All in
25 favor? Opposed? None. Motion carries.
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1 (Motion carries unanimously.)
2
3 *****
4 DONOR DESCRIPTION
5 1) Amer. Conservation & CASH
6 Education Society
7 Houston Safari Club
8 PURPOSE OF DONATION: Hunter Education Program
9 2) Wildlife Research Ctr Deer lure, scent pads,
10 brochures
11 PURPOSE OF DONATION: Hunter Education Program
12 3) Doskocil Manu Co Inc 15 Hard gun cases
13 PURPOSE OF DONATION: Hunter Education Program
14 4) Blazing Gun Production 2 Trucks
15 PURPOSE OF DONATION: Texas State Railroad
16 5) Friends of Pedernales Tractor
17 Falls S.P.
18 PURPOSE OF DONATION: Pedernales Falls Park Maint.
19 6) Friends of Pedernales Vehicle
20 Falls S.P.
21 PURPOSE OF DONATION: Volunteer Program
22 7) Monument Hill/Dreishce Misc goods
23 Brewery Docent Org
24 PURPOSE OF DONATION: Monument Hill State Park
25 8) Dallas Arms Collector 5 muzzleloaders
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1 PURPOSE OF DONATION: Parrie Haynes Youth Ranch
2 Shooting Sports Program
3 9) Compaq Computers 3 Computers, zip drives
4 PURPOSE OF DONATION: Webcasts
5 10) Texas Bighorn Society 4 trail cameras, 1
6 scope, binoculars
7 PURPOSE OF DONATION: Desert bighorn sheep
8 restoration at Black Gap WMA
9 11) Special Interest Fords Office equipment
10 of the 50's Club
11 PURPOSE OF DONATION: Office, maintenance, and gift
12 shop equipment
13 12) Natural Resources CASH
14 Foundation of TX
15 PURPOSE OF DONATION: Lone Star Land Stewards Awards
16 13) Builder's Supply 2 Trailers
17 PURPOSE OF DONATION: Water safety use - to
18 transport watercraft
19 14) CNG Producing Company/ CASH and goods
20 Dominion E&P, Inc.
21 PURPOSE OF DONATION: Enhancement of State
22 Artificial Reefs
23 TOTAL: $818,615.33
24 *****
25 CHAIRMAN BASS: Mr. Sansom, would you
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1 please proceed with the retirement certificates and
2 service awards.
3 MR. SANSOM: Mr. Chairman, if you could
4 join me at the podium, I would like to take this
5 opportunity to recognize those employees who are not
6 only retiring today, in some cases, but being
7 recognized for many years of valuable and loyal and
8 dedicated service to Parks and Wildlife.
9 The first is Nyra Gonzalez, and Nyra has
10 worked at Falcon ever since, basically, it opened. She
11 started in 1966 as a clerk. Falcon, as you know, has
12 been, over the years, one the most important places in
13 Texas to fish for large mouth bass, and it's a place of
14 endangered species; it's a tremendous resource along
15 the Texas border.
16 Nyra is an administrative technician,
17 and she has served there for 34 years, and she retires
18 today with more service than most people can give to
19 Parks and Recreation in a lifetime.
20 Please recognize Nyra A. Gonzalez from
21 State Parks, with 34 years of service, retiring today.
22 (Applause.)
23 MR. SANSOM: And you look wonderful.
24 MS. GONZALEZ: Thank you.
25 CHAIRMAN BASS: Congratulations.
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1 MS. GONZALEZ: Thank you.
2 MR. SANSOM: Thank you, Nyra.
3 MS. GONZALEZ: Thank you.
4 MR. SANSOM: Congratulations.
5 (Applause.)
6 MR. SANSOM: Congratulations. Bill Russ
7 started in the dove program in the Austin headquarters
8 in 1971. He's worked in Wildlife for 29 years. He's
9 now in the Trans-Pecos District in Sanderson, and he
10 started there in September of 1973. He's a natural
11 resource specialist from the Wildlife Division.
12 Please recognize William B. Russ
13 retiring today with 29 years with Texas Parks and
14 Wildlife.
15 (Applause.)
16 MR. SANSOM: Hey, Bill.
17 Congratulations.
18 MR. RUSS: Thank you.
19 Mr. Bass, thank you.
20 (Applause.)
21 MR. SANSOM: Here's a name that's
22 synonymous with Parks and Wildlife: Roy Inks.
23 Roy Inks started working at Parks and
24 Wildlife in 1973 as a member of the old engineering
25 division. He moved to its administrative section and
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1 then, for a while, worked in what is now the chief
2 financial officer's area to administrator construction
3 contracts for the entire department.
4 In 1979, he was named the Region 6
5 operations and maintenance supervisor in Kerrville
6 where he remains today.
7 His first big assignment, if many of you
8 remember when the floods hit the Hill Country in 1978,
9 was to clean up all of the devastation that had
10 occurred to our parks along to the Guadalupe.
11 He managed the renovation of the Admiral
12 Nimitz museum. He participated in the completion of
13 Guadalupe River, Lost Maples, Enchanted Rock, Kickapoo,
14 and the Old Tunnel. His work has extended from Garner
15 to the Battleship of Texas, and he retires today after
16 27 years with Texas Parks and Wildlife. Roy B. Inks
17 from the State Parks Division.
18 (Applause.)
19 MR. SANSOM: Congratulations, Roy.
20 I know Commissioner Dinkins knows where
21 Mathis is. Santiago Munoz has worked there for 26
22 years. He started as a Park Ranger and has
23 continuously moved up the ladder. He has enjoyed
24 working with the public; he still lives in Mathis, and
25 he works there today as a part-time wastewater
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1 consultant. He still volunteers when we need it at
2 Lake Corpus Christi State Park whenever he's needed.
3 Please recognize Santiago Munoz,
4 retiring with 26 years Texas Parks and Wildlife.
5 (Applause.)
6 MR. SANSOM: Congratulations and thank
7 you.
8 All right. You know, every once in a
9 while, you have to learn to do something that you
10 weren't prepared for. I guess the best example of that
11 that I could give you is Allen Forshage.
12 Allen Forshage started working as a
13 biological technician at the San Marcos Fisheries
14 Office in 1969.
15 In 1996, after all those years, we began
16 to get ready to open the Texas Freshwater Fisheries
17 Center in Athens, which, of course, is one of our
18 premiere projects. We were really not sure whether we
19 were going to open on time and on budget and with the
20 kind of staff and preparation we needed. And so Alan
21 was basically assigned, as having been the regional
22 director there, to go over there and get this facility
23 open.
24 He liked it so much, and Phil liked him
25 so much and the job that he did that he was named
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1 director of the center where he is today.
2 He has become a key part of the outreach
3 effort of the department, and under his leadership and
4 management, the Texas Freshwater Fisheries Center is
5 known throughout the world today.
6 With 30 years of service in Inland
7 Fisheries, the service award today goes to Allen
8 Forshage from the Texas Freshwater Fisheries Center.
9 (Applause.)
10 MR. SANSOM: Good job. Way to go,
11 Allen.
12 MR. FORSHAGE: Thank you.
13 (Applause.)
14 MR. SANSOM: I first met Albert or Beto
15 Gonzalez when he was a supervisor lieutenant in the
16 Houston Law Enforcement office.
17 Albert went to work for the department
18 in 1971. His first duty station was in Brownsville.
19 He has also worked in Rio Grande City, out of Starr
20 County.
21 He transferred to Houston in 1986 where
22 I first met and became acquainted with him.
23 In 1992, Albert was promoted to regional
24 director or regional commander in Houston and has
25 transferred since to San Antonio where he is the
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1 regional director.
2 Please recognize, with 30 years of
3 service, Albert Gonzalez, Commander Game Warden.
4 (Applause.)
5 MR. SANSOM: Congratulations, Albert.
6 Thank you, Albert.
7 John Gould. John Gould is a Game Warden
8 V that started to work for the department in 1970 as a
9 graduate of the 25th Game Warden Academy class. He's
10 been in Potter County, Randall, Oldham, and Deaf Smith,
11 and he's currently assigned to Tom Green after 30 years
12 at Texas Parks and Wildlife as a game warden.
13 Please recognize, from San Angelo, John
14 D. Gould.
15 (Applause.)
16 MR. SANSOM: Congratulations, John.
17 MR. GOULD: Thank you.
18 MR. SANSOM: For many years, the center
19 of our Inland Fisheries activity in East Texas was
20 Tyler. Raymond Cooper, from Inland Fisheries, started
21 as a biology field worker at the Tyler Fish Hatchery,
22 which was the predecessor of our wonderful facility at
23 Athens.
24 In 1977, Raymond transferred to the
25 Tyler Fisheries management crew as a fish and wildlife
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1 technician and then worked in hatchery subsequently.
2 Today, along with Allen and the rest of
3 the crew, he is working as a wildlife technician IV at
4 the Texas Freshwater Fisheries center in Athens.
5 Raymond Cooper, today receiving his
6 award for 25 years of service to Texas Parks and
7 Wildlife.
8 (Applause.)
9 MR. SANSOM: Hey, Raymond. How are you?
10 Glad to see you.
11 Congratulations, Raymond.
12 Johnny Wade basically started to work at
13 Stonewall, Texas, at the LBJ State Historical Park,
14 about the time it opened.
15 He started as a Ranger and he was
16 promoted to Ranger I in the maintenance department.
17 After several years, he was promoted to Ranger II.
18 Johnny is somebody who is a true
19 ambassador to anybody who's visited LBJ. He's a great
20 ambassador, not only for that park, but for our agency.
21 Let's congratulate Johnny Wade for 25
22 years of service as a Park Ranger at LBJ State
23 Historical Park in Stonewall.
24 (Applause.)
25 MR. SANSOM: Hey, Johnny. How are you?
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1 MR. WADE: All right.
2 MR. SANSOM: Thank you, Johnny.
3 Congratulations.
4 I was up last fall quail hunting along
5 the Canadian River, and I went over to the Gene Howe
6 Wildlife Management Area to visit Bob Rogers. And a
7 fellow had been down there hunting, from Kansas, and he
8 had lost his bird dog. And Bob Rogers found the bird
9 dog, called the guy, took care of the dog until the guy
10 could come down and get it back.
11 He started as a part-time employee at
12 Copper Breaks, and in the years that he has been at
13 Texas Parks and Wildlife, most of those years now in
14 the Wildlife Division, he has been recognized
15 repeatedly for the outreach efforts that he has made in
16 one of the most beautiful but little-known parts of our
17 system, up along the Canadian.
18 He has done an enormous amount of work
19 up there with children. He's made that wildlife
20 management area much more of a destination and a place
21 for people to come and visit for all sorts of wildlife
22 appreciation.
23 So please recognize Bob Rogers from the
24 Wildlife Division at Canadian, with 25 years of
25 service.
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1 (Applause.)
2 MR. SANSOM: It was a great dog. It was
3 a great dog. Thank you.
4 Members, in 1995, the Law Enforcement
5 Division joined an organization which is known as the
6 Association of Midwest Fishing and Game Law Enforcement
7 Officers. That's basically a professional association,
8 among six Canadian provinces, the U.S. Fish and
9 Wildlife Service, and 17 Western states, that
10 encourages cooperation between law enforcement agencies
11 and natural resources; integrates natural resource law
12 enforcement practices among them; strives for a
13 continuing and increasing higher education and training
14 opportunities.
15 In June, at the 56th annual meeting of
16 this organization held in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, a
17 Texas Game Warden was recognized for his outstanding
18 accomplishments.
19 He has been a lead investigator of the
20 illegal release of harmful exotic shellfish -- and we
21 talked about that the other night at our employee
22 awards -- from shrimp farms in Cameron County, having
23 prosecuted/convicted over 21 violators. He has removed
24 more than 500,000 feet of illegal gill nets and
25 trotlines from the public waters of Texas. He has
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1 investigated numerous migratory bird baiting violations
2 and trespass complaints, and over his career, has made
3 over 4500 arrests.
4 Jim Robertson is going to stand up here,
5 with Mr. Bass and I, and recognize Game Warden Shane
6 Teeters of Laredo, the Midwest Conservation Officer of
7 the Year in Texas.
8 Way to go, Shane.
9 MR. ROBERTSON: Good job, Shane.
10 MR. TEETERS: Thank you.
11 MR. SANSOM: Congratulations, Shane.
12 Members, in 1997, the Cross Timbers
13 Chapter of Quail Unlimited funded a major Parks and
14 Wildlife study on scaled quail in West Texas. They've
15 been a tremendous partner for us.
16 The Cross Timbers Chapter is probably
17 the most active chapter of Quail Unlimited that we have
18 in Texas and has continued that tradition by
19 contributing $10,000 toward a study on bobwhite quail
20 in East Texas.
21 This contribution, along with donations
22 from the National Fish and Wildlife Foundation, Dow
23 Chemical, matching funds from local farmers who are
24 involved in the projects, will investigate the wildlife
25 benefits and cost-effectiveness of converting coastal
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1 Bermuda grass fields back to native pastures, probably
2 the single most important thing we can do to restore
3 quail to our lands in Texas.
4 Matt Wagner is a Wildlife Division
5 biologist who designed the project, and he's here
6 today, and I would like to ask him to come forward,
7 along with Robert Cantrell, co-chair of the Cross
8 Timbers Chapter of Quail Unlimited, so that we can
9 thank them and present them with a certificate "I
10 Support Wildlife Research at Texas Parks and Wildlife."
11 (Applause.)
12 MR. SANSOM: Hey, Mr. Cantrell. Thank
13 you.
14 MR. CANTRELL: Thank you.
15 MR. SANSOM: Good job, Matt.
16 We appreciate so much those of you who
17 participated in our employee awards ceremonies the
18 other night at the U.T. Alumni Center. Along with
19 recognizing these individuals at each of our meetings,
20 that is certainly the highlight of the year for us.
21 I would like to call your attention to
22 the fact that Walt Dabney is a recipient of the
23 Department of Interior's Meritorious Service Award. He
24 received it last week, on behalf of Secretary Babbitt,
25 he was given the award by Robert Stanton here in
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1 Austin, who is the director of the National Park
2 Service.
3 Mrs. Lyndon Johnson and her daughter,
4 Luci, participated in this ceremony, and it recognized
5 Walt for his exemplary 30-year career in the National
6 Park Service.
7 He was recognized for his role, not only
8 in the superintendency of various major parks, but his
9 role as the Chief Ranger of the National Park Service,
10 in which he furthered the professionalism of the
11 National Park Field Rangers through training and
12 benefits, and the award originated from his peers
13 throughout the National Park Service.
14 Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask you to
15 help me re-present Walt Dabney with the Meritorious
16 Service Award.
17 (Applause.)
18 MR. SANSOM: Congratulations.
19 Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That concludes
20 our awards.
21 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, Andy.
22 The next item will be approval of our
23 agenda today. We have one item, Item 14: Contract
24 Dispute Resolution, that's available for movement to
25 the Consent Agenda, as we don't have any public input
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1 at this time on that.
2 That being the case, the Chair would
3 entertain a motion for movement to the consent agenda
4 and approval of the agenda.
5 COMMISSIONER RYAN: So moved.
6 COMMISSIONER HENRY: Second.
7 CHAIRMAN BASS: Motion and second.
8 All in favor? Opposed? None. Motion
9 passes.
10 (Motion carries unanimously.)
11 AGENDA ITEM NO. 1: CONSENT AGENDA
12 CHAIRMAN BASS: Chair would ask for a
13 motion to approve the Consent Agenda.
14 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: So moved.
15 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Second.
16 CHAIRMAN BASS: Motion and a second.
17 All in favor? Any opposed?
18 Motion carries. Thank you.
19 (Motion carries unanimously.)
20 AGENDA ITEM NO. 2: ACTION - LOCAL PARK FUNDING
21 CHAIRMAN BASS: Next order of business
22 is Local Park Funding, Tim Hogsett.
23 MR. HOGSETT: Good morning,
24 Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission. I'm Tim
25 Hogsett, Director of the Recreation Grants Program in
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1 the State Parks Division.
2 This morning we're bringing to you 47
3 applications for consideration for outdoor recreation
4 grants. These are all the applications that we
5 received as of our January 31, 2000, deadline.
6 We have performed site visits of all
7 these applications. We have scored them using our
8 priority ranking system. They have been rank-ordered
9 and are placed in your Exhibit A, in their rank order.
10 We're recommending funding for the first
11 15 of those projects in the amount of $6,913,206, and
12 to read into the record, our recommendation is:
13 "Funding for the projects listed in Exhibit A, in the
14 amount of $6,913,206, is approved as described for
15 individual projects in Exhibit B."
16 I feel certain there are probably people
17 here to testify, but I'd be glad to take any questions
18 that you have.
19 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Thank you.
20 Are there any questions by any of the
21 members of the Commission?
22 Thank you, Mr. Hogsett.
23 We do have people signed up to speak to
24 this issue, and first is Lisa Birkman, and I would ask
25 that Lemuel Randolph be prepared to speak following Ms.
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1 Birkman.
2 Welcome.
3 MS. BIRKMAN: Thank you.
4 Good morning. I am Lisa Birkman and I
5 serve on the board of directors of Brushy Creek
6 Municipal Utility District. It's not quite so far as
7 some of these people that came from the Gulf or right
8 up the road, near Round Rock.
9 And we also have several other
10 representatives here: Mr. Jimmy Griffith, the president
11 of the Board; Mr. Tom Brown from Nasmith Engineering,
12 our district engineering firm; and Ms. Katy Hutchison,
13 our Parks and Recreations director. They're right over
14 there.
15 I would like to thank you for giving me
16 this opportunity to speak on behalf of the district. I
17 am very excited to be here, as I began work on this
18 project over a year ago, before my election to the
19 board, when I was the chairperson of the district's
20 Parks and Recreation Advisory Committee.
21 This project is the result of hard work
22 on the part of many in our district as well as the
23 staff of the TPWD. I would like to thank Mr. Tim
24 Hogsett, Mr. Joe Seffel, and the other staff members
25 for their work on our grants proposal and for the
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1 favorable recommendation given to the proposal. Both
2 Mr. Hogsett and Mr. Seffel visited our site and braved
3 the 100-degree weather to do so, and we really
4 appreciate that.
5 Brushy Creek Municipal Utility District
6 is a large suburban district with approximately 12,000
7 residents currently, and projections expect our
8 population to double within the next 10 years if not
9 before. They're building quite a bit out there.
10 We were fortunate enough several years
11 ago to acquire about 100 acres of park land and
12 greenbelt to serve the area, but it is, as yet,
13 undeveloped. Located within this property are several
14 caves which are the habitat of endangered species,
15 including one of the largest caves in our area, the
16 Beck Ranch Cave. It is the habitat of Mexican
17 free-tailed bats, as well as other species.
18 If we are awarded this grant today, we
19 will acquire another endangered species cave and
20 protect all the caves from future degradation and
21 development. We will also be able to build a viewing
22 area so that our citizens and others can view the bats
23 as they come and go from the Beck Ranch Cave.
24 Additionally, we propose to build a
25 community park that would include some ball fields and
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1 other amenities, and approximately 7,850 linear feet of
2 hike and bike trails that will connect our parks and
3 greenbelts in the district to the Williamson County
4 Trail System which was funded by our regional park
5 grant from the Commission several months ago.
6 So we are very pleased about this grant
7 and the opportunity for our citizens and our community,
8 and we thank you for this opportunity.
9 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Well, thank you for
10 coming to speak to us. Good luck with that project.
11 Lemuel Randolph. And if Anne Ochoa
12 would be prepared to speak next.
13 MR. RANDOLPH: Thank you. My name is
14 Lemuel Randolph and I'm here to represent the City of
15 Sugar Land as their Parks and Recreation director.
16 I've left with you some packets that
17 describe a project that you recently funded in the City
18 of Sugar Land: A 108-acre complex that includes a
19 20-acre water garden. Through the Commission grant
20 system, we were awarded a grant for that project. The
21 opening day was July 4th, this past July 4th. We had
22 over 20,000 people in attendance, and I just want to
23 thank you personally for the commitment you've made to
24 local parks in making the Orchard Creek Park in Sugar
25 Land a reality. Thank you.
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1 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Thank you for being
2 here.
3 Anne Ochoa, and then if Jose Munoz would
4 be prepared to speak next.
5 Good morning.
6 MS. OCHOA: Good morning. My name is
7 Anne Ochoa and I'm a council member at the City of Lago
8 Vista, and I just wanted to say thank you to the
9 Commission for their hard work. I know these are tough
10 decisions that we have to make in public life.
11 Our city park proposal did not make the
12 cut this year. This is the first time we've ever tried
13 to do this, and all I wanted to say was we're in a
14 learning mode, and we know that, like you, we want to
15 provide the best possible facility for our residents
16 and the residents of our area, and we're going to try
17 again, and we're going to do a better job next time.
18 So thank you again for your hard work.
19 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Well, thank you for
20 being here, and I know Mr. Hogsett will help you as
21 much as he can.
22 MS. OCHOA: Yes.
23 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Jose Munoz.
24 MR. MUNOZ: Good morning.
25 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Morning.
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1 MR. MUNOZ: My name is Jose Munoz. I'm
2 with the engineering firm of Guzman & Munoz
3 Engineering, here representing the Sebastian Municipal
4 Utility District.
5 Upon your approval of the grant
6 application, the community will be building a six-acre
7 baseball and hike and bike and picnic park.
8 Here with me is Larry Rincones with the
9 Empowerment Zone, who will also be matching funds for
10 the project. I'll let Larry say a few words for the
11 Empowerment Zone.
12 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Thank you.
13 MR. RINCONES: Thank you very much, Mr.
14 Munoz.
15 We are very excited about this
16 opportunity --
17 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Could you identify
18 yourself.
19 MR. RINCONES: My name is Ilario
20 Rincones, and I live in the community of Sebastian.
21 It's a large colonia community in Willacy County, in
22 the lower Rio Grande Valley.
23 Let me share with you why we're so
24 excited about this opportunity.
25 In Willacy County, there is only one
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1 little league park for the entire county. Our children
2 in that community have to drive 10 miles to a little
3 league field in one county where children practice on
4 Saturdays and Sundays. That's how many children we
5 have interested in sports, and we've had that major
6 challenge for years.
7 I got a call last year and said, "You
8 know, we have so many kids. What can we do to partner,
9 where the -- Sebastian is a designated Empowerment Zone
10 community, and we decided to leverage this with some
11 Empowerment Zone funds.
12 In addition to that, we had a tremendous
13 need for our youth in the community. We certainly
14 had -- we had three deaths in our community over the
15 last five years from people that were walking along the
16 highway, simply because we don't have sidewalks or a
17 park, and the community felt -- this was an initiative
18 that came from the community to do this, and we are so
19 pleased because, as you know, many of our elderly, as
20 part of their exercise program, in controlling their
21 diabetes, is a need to exercise and walk. And this
22 initiate is a template for us to do, in many
23 communities in south Texas, where we can integrate a
24 healthy community with recreation facilities and
25 certainly improve the quality of life in that
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1 community, and I will really appreciate the staff's
2 recommendation and your time to consider this
3 application. Thank you so much.
4 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Thank you both for
5 traveling such a distance.
6 Any further discussion by members of the
7 Commission? Hearing none, the Chair would entertain a
8 motion for approval of this item.
9 COMMISSIONER AVILA: So moved.
10 COMMISSIONER WATSON: Second.
11 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Thank you. Motion
12 by Commissioner Avila, second by Commission Watson.
13 Any further discussion?
14 All in favor say aye. Those opposed say
15 nay.
16 Motion carries. Thank you.
17 (Motion Carriers unanimously.)
18 "Funding for projects listed in Exhibit A in the amount
19 of $6,913,206 is approved, as described for individual
20 projects in Exhibit B."
21 AGENDA ITEM NO. 3: ACTION - BOAT RAMP FUNDING
22 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Mr. Hogsett.
23 MR. HOGSETT: Item Number 3 is Proposals
24 for Boat Ramp Funding.
25 We received four applications last July
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1 and placed those on hold pending our initiating a
2 program of repair and major improvements at some of our
3 State Park and Wildlife Management Area boat ramps. A
4 number of those are about to begin, so as a result, we
5 would like to go back and fund a few local projects
6 this time.
7 We are recommending funding for all four
8 projects since there's sufficient Federal funds
9 available to do that, and we're recommending funding in
10 the amount of $1,297,750 in Federal-matching 75 percent
11 funds for the four projects that you'll find in Exhibit
12 A.
13 The recommendation is funding for new
14 boat ramp construction projects as listed in Exhibit A
15 in the amount of $1,297,750 is approved, as described
16 for individual projects in Exhibit B.
17 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Thank you,
18 Mr. Hogsett.
19 Any questions?
20 COMMISSIONER WATSON: Tim, on the
21 Leggett Light Breakwater --
22 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Could you put your
23 microphone on.
24 COMMISSIONER WATSON: Can they get that
25 done for $1,000,000?
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1 MR. HOGSETT: Actually, I think they've
2 got some additional funds locally that they're putting
3 into it.
4 COMMISSIONER WATSON: Yeah, I thought --
5 Okay.
6 MR. HOGSETT: I would hope so. That's
7 all -- a million dollars has been our limit on how much
8 we can give them, and I anticipate that they're going
9 to be putting some more local dollars into that.
10 COMMISSIONER WATSON: When do they plan
11 to start that?
12 MR. HOGSETT: I don't know. It will be
13 after -- as soon as we can contract with them, but I
14 don't know what their construction schedule is.
15 COMMISSIONER WATSON: And that's long
16 overdue. That's a serious situation.
17 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: I saw a hand up in
18 the back. If you would like to address the Commission,
19 please, fill out a form and it will be brought forward
20 to us. Thank you.
21 Any other questions of Mr. Hogsett?
22 Thank you.
23 We do have two people signed up to speak
24 on this agenda item. The first is Bill Wallace, Mr.
25 Wallace. And if Mr. W. E. Irby would be prepared to
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1 speak next.
2 MR. WALLACE: Thank you very much for
3 having us today.
4 I'm Bill Wallace. I'm county
5 commissioner in Precinct 4, Chambers County.
6 I'd certainly like to thank the
7 commissioners and the Texas Parks and Wildlife for the
8 opportunity of Chambers County being considered for a
9 boat ramp grant of this size.
10 I would also like to say that this new
11 boat ramp will serve not only our county, but we lay up
12 next to two existing counties; this will open a new
13 gateway into the river system and into Trinity Bay. It
14 will also be a deep water facility, so I certainly
15 thank you for your consideration.
16 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Thank you.
17 W. E. Irby?
18 MR. IRBY: My name is Buddy Irby and I'm
19 county commissioner of Precinct 3, Chambers County. I
20 also want to thank you for consideration of these
21 projects.
22 The one in Chambers County will allow a
23 deep water access to the wonderful water resources in
24 Chambers County, and we urge your approval. And,
25 again, thank you very much.
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1 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Thank you for being
2 here.
3 Are there any other questions of
4 Mr. Hogsett?
5 Hearing none, the Chair would entertain
6 a motion for approval of this agenda item.
7 COMMISSIONER RYAN: So moved.
8 COMMISSIONER HENRY: Second.
9 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Thank you. Motion
10 by Commissioner Ryan, seconded by Commissioner Henry.
11 Any other further discussion?
12 All in favor say aye. Those opposed
13 nay.
14 Motion carries. Thank you.
15 (Motion carries unanimously.)
16 "Funding for new construction projects as listed in
17 Exhibit A in the amount of $1,297,750 is approved, as
18 described for individual projects in Exhibit B."
19 AGENDA ITEM NO. 4: ACTION - NATIONAL RECREATIONAL
20 TRAIL FUND GRANTS
21 MR. HOGSETT: Thank you. In the
22 interest of time, I'm going to go ahead and do the next
23 two items as well.
24 The National Recreation Trails fund is a
25 Federal grant pass-through program. Federal funds that
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1 are derived from gasoline tax on off-road recreational
2 vehicles.
3 We have 71 applications requesting over
4 $5 million. All of these applications have been
5 reviewed by our State Trails Advisory Review Board.
6 They have been rank-ordered, and recommendations for
7 funding can be found in your Exhibit A, and we are
8 recommending, as the Trails Advisory Board has
9 recommended, funding for 44 projects.
10 The staff recommendation is funding for
11 44 projects recommended in Exhibit A, in the amount of
12 $2,232,385, is approved.
13 I'll be glad to answer any questions.
14 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Thank you,
15 Mr. Hogsett.
16 Are there any questions by any members
17 of the Commission?
18 All right. We do have one person signed
19 up to speak to this item, Cora Alexander.
20 Welcome, Ms. Alexander.
21 MS. ALEXANDER: Thank you.
22 Good morning. My name is a Cora
23 Alexander. I just completed one month tenure with the
24 City of Houston Parks and Recreation Department.
25 I'm here today to thank you for your
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1 consideration of the Memorial Trails Project. This new
2 project will provide 11 new miles of jogging trails, as
3 well as the renovation of 6 miles of bike trails and 2
4 new bridge projects.
5 We are especially appreciative of the
6 wonderful support we have received from the staff, in
7 particular, Tim Hogsett and Andy Goldbloom.
8 We are looking forward to continuing
9 this wonderful working relationship with the Texas
10 Department of Parks and Wildlife. Again, thank you.
11 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you very much,
12 Ms. Alexander.
13 Are there any questions or comments for
14 Mr. Hogsett at this time?
15 The Chair would entertain a motion, if
16 it's the Commission's pleasure, on this item.
17 COMMISSIONER WATSON: So moved.
18 MR. BASS: Motion for approval.
19 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Second it.
20 MR. BASS: And a second.
21 All in favor? Any opposed?
22 Being none, motion carries. Thank you
23 very much.
24 (Motion carries unanimously.)
25 "Funding for 44 projects recommended in Exhibit A in
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1 the amount of $2,232,385 is approved."
2 AGENDA ITEM NO. 5: ACTION - TARGET RANGE PROGRAM
3 CHAIRMAN BASS: And Target Range
4 Program.
5 MR. HOGSETT: Item 5 is the National
6 Hunter Education Target Range Program, grants to
7 construct target ranges.
8 These are Federal funds from the
9 Wildlife Restoration Act. You can find the evaluation
10 criteria that are used to evaluate these projects at
11 your Exhibit A.
12 These are 75 percent matching grants.
13 They can be made, both, to local governments and to
14 private enterprise. And we're recommending funding for
15 two projects in the amount of $100,000.
16 Our staff recommendation is that the
17 Parks and Wildlife Commission authorizes the executive
18 director to execute contracts funding the projects
19 found in Exhibit B and C pending availability of
20 Federal funds.
21 CHAIRMAN BASS: I don't believe there's
22 any public comment on this item today. No, there's
23 not.
24 Any questions or comments from the
25 Commission on this?
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1 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: I move approval of
2 the recommendation.
3 COMMISSIONER IDSAL: Second.
4 MR. BASS: Motion and a second.
5 All in favor? Any opposed?
6 Motion carries. Thank you very much.
7 (Motion carries unanimously.)
8 "The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission authorizes the
9 Executive Director to execute contracts funding the
10 projects at Exhibit B and C pending availability of
11 federal funds."
12 AGENDA ITEM NO. 6: ACTION - 2000-2001 MANAGEMENT
13 PROCLAMATION
14 MR. HOGSETT: Thank you.
15 CHAIRMAN BASS: The next item of
16 business is the Shrimp Management Proclamation.
17 I'd like to take a moment to make a few
18 comments prior to the staff presentation.
19 You know, I think that this is obviously
20 one of the tougher or toughest issues to come before
21 this Commission in quite a long time. It's difficult
22 because it involves not only resource issues, but also
23 human and economic issues.
24 We're dealing with the resources of the
25 state here, which we are charged, first and foremost,
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1 with the stewardship of, but we're also dealing with
2 the livelihoods of an industry that's been a part of
3 the fabric of our state for decades and generations.
4 There is a lot of data that is involved
5 in the study of this issue and trying to choose the
6 proper course of action, and lots of statistics we've
7 been presented with, by, both, advocates and proponents
8 and opponents of stricter regulation.
9 Sometimes the data has been seemingly
10 confusing and contradictory, and, I guess, the other
11 glaring aspect of it is that, like all scientists, we
12 wish we had more data and the definitive answer, but
13 I'm afraid that scientific data doesn't work that way,
14 and there's always some confidence issue of dealing
15 with data.
16 I'm reminded a little bit of my -- what
17 my great uncle used to say when I was boy and before he
18 a passed away, that -- about some of this data as we're
19 seeing wave upon wave of it over the last couple of
20 days and several months, as well, that, you know,
21 statistics show that seeing a doctor and going to a
22 hospital is the best way to save your life when you're
23 sick. Statistics also show that more people die in a
24 hospital than any other place. So pick your poison.
25 You know, it's -- you can turn data in lots of ways,
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1 and, ultimately, it's not definitive; it's just simply
2 something to help guide human judgment as best we can.
3 Our charges, I think, as a Commission,
4 are to try to sort through all of the public input and
5 the professional input that we have and choose a course
6 of action that's in the best long-term interests of the
7 resources of the state, and, therefore, in the best
8 long-term interests of the citizens of the state to
9 whom these resources belong and whom we are stewards
10 for, and, obviously, that includes members of the
11 industry who gain their livelihood from this. It
12 obviously also includes many other Texans and
13 stakeholders who have an interest in this issue.
14 I'd also, for the record, like to
15 clarify something that has come to my attention in the
16 last day or so. There have been rumors or accusations
17 from many quarters that the Commission's positions in
18 the latest proposals have been amended or taken at the
19 specific direction of our governor. Accusations have
20 come to my attention that -- both, from the ecological
21 interests representing sea turtle interests, et cetera,
22 that the governor has directed us to make certain
23 concessions to the industry.
24 I've also heard accusations the governor
25 has directed us to take steps adverse to the industry's
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1 interests, for political reasons.
2 I'd like to clarify the record on that,
3 that the governor nor the governor's office has given
4 me or, to my knowledge, anybody else here any specific
5 direction on this other than the following:
6 And that is that they have been briefed
7 on the facts and the science and the issues. They have
8 encouraged us to do the right thing, recognizing that
9 it may not be the popular thing, and they've left it
10 for us to define that, as to what the right thing is,
11 and relying on the judgment that they delegated to us
12 when they appointed us to these positions, to choose
13 what the right thing would be.
14 I'm afraid, in this case, there probably
15 is no, you know, popular thing, because there's hardly
16 a course of action we could take that would make
17 everyone happy. But, you know, the governor's office
18 has given us no directive other than to follow our
19 judgment, to do our job, and to take a balanced
20 approach, which is certainly his legacy here.
21 That being said, I would like to ask the
22 staff to come forward and make their presentation.
23 MR. OSBURN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
24 I'm Hal Osburn, Coastal Fisheries
25 Division director. Yesterday, the Regulations
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1 Committee did forward to the full Commission the
2 revised set of proposed shrimp regulations as
3 recommended by the staff. We held eight public
4 hearings -- we held eight public hearings this summer.
5 Got a lot of very good input; a lot of folks came out
6 and participated in our process. To expand the input
7 on that process, we did hold two meetings of the Shrimp
8 Advisory Committee, 12 members in that group. We also
9 added a shrimp working group of 14 members to diversify
10 the stakeholders that had shown interest, and I want to
11 thank those folks for their sacrifice and, actually,
12 their civility and their very good manners in dealing
13 with some very hard issues for them.
14 Quickly summarizing the public comments,
15 in total, we've had over 5500 individual comments.
16 They are still coming in. We had -- most of those,
17 about 80 percent, were in-state folks, and most of
18 those were speaking to the entire package of the
19 proposals, with a 96 percent favorable rating.
20 Staff continues to manage based on the
21 guidance provided us, not only in the statute
22 legislative direction, but also in our Texas Shrimp
23 Fisheries Management Plan adopted by the Commission in
24 1989. It establishes some clear management strategies
25 that continue to guide us in -- and that's what we used
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1 to formulate our final recommendations to you. We do
2 have some final conclusions and recommendations. That
3 includes that we think there is valid concerns,
4 scientific basis for shrimp overfishing. We still see
5 the trend in the harvest of the smallest sized shrimp,
6 documenting the growth overfishing. We've not seen
7 evidence that is not occurring. We see shrimping
8 effort also on upward trend, has stabilized some in the
9 last few years, with, I believe, our limited entry
10 program success, but it still remains at historically
11 high levels with the capacity to go very high in some
12 years, and we believe that that needs to be reversed.
13 We also see the declining catch rates in
14 our bay and in the Gulf as a clear indication for a
15 proactive management strategy. I'd like to point out,
16 for example, in this graph, that historically we do
17 have some high production years. We can see peaks, for
18 example, in 1975 and '77 and '82, and perhaps this
19 year, in 2000, will be another one of those peaks of
20 some level compared to the last few years. But those
21 occasional peaks do not erase the long-term downward
22 trends, and those downward trends form the basis of our
23 concerns about overfishing. In fact, we support the
24 testimony provided to us by Dr. Gracia from Mexico
25 yesterday, and from Dr. Zimmerman and Dr. Nance from
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1 the National Marine Fisheries Service. They certainly
2 documented the growth overfishing occurring in the
3 Gulf, not only off of Texas but also in Mexico. Those
4 problems do occur with shrimp populations when they are
5 fished hard. We are certainly in concurrence with the
6 National Marine Fisheries Service position that we at
7 are at maximum exploitation of our shrimp stocks, and I
8 believe Dr. Zimmerman used the term "we're walking the
9 line," in terms of risk on recruitment overfishing
10 which is why we are here today.
11 We also concur with his statement that
12 the data used to evaluate this problem is robust in
13 that it can be utilized, is adequate to be utilized to
14 make management decisions.
15 And, certainly, finally, we concur with
16 Dr. Gracia that unregulated growth overfishing can lead
17 to stock collapses as it happened on the white shrimp
18 and the pink shrimp in Mexico, and we will continue to
19 work with partners, with those folks, we learn from
20 them how to prevent those mistakes, and we want to keep
21 a partnership there.
22 The regulations committee did offer a
23 package that was a simplification of the proposed
24 rules. We based the simplification on the public
25 comments we've heard throughout this process and the
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1 guidance from the Fisheries Management Plan. Those
2 recommendations from the regulations committee include
3 liberalizations. Two right now would be to increase
4 the net size for the seabob fishery in the Gulf to a
5 34-foot net; extend the baitfish season by adding the
6 month of May; the adoption of the originally proposed
7 new nursery area and bait bays on the upper coast, with
8 the exception of a small decrease in the proposed
9 nursery in the East Bay area.
10 We were -- he had some folks come
11 forward in a very positive manner with some specific
12 recommendations on their fishery, which was a small
13 boat fishery where they actually launched their boats
14 near Rollover Pass and fish in that area, and we think
15 it's viable to continue that small boat fishery, so we
16 move that nursery line.
17 On the lower coasts, we do recommend the
18 adoption of the original proposals.
19 Recommendation continues for time
20 closures, which are recommended by the FMP as a primary
21 management, 15 days off of the 4-month fall bay season,
22 and 30 days off of the 8 1/2 Gulf near-shore season.
23 Bycatch reduction devices are
24 recommended for all trawls except for the commercial
25 and recreational bait shrimp trawls.
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1 The federal rules for turtle excluder
2 devices in the Gulf trawls are also recommended as
3 state rules. I would note it would also be our
4 intentions, on the bycatch reduction devices, to
5 purchase the first set of BRDs for the entire fleet,
6 using a portion of our buyback funds.
7 When we get to our Gulf options,
8 certainly had a lot of diverse opinions there. We had
9 recommendations from the industry itself that were more
10 restrictive than we had originally proposed. We sought
11 a balance between the different stakeholders there and
12 offer the change of the current year-round nighttime
13 closure inside seven fathoms to be moved to five
14 nautical miles, and inside three nautical miles
15 coast-wide during the day, there would be a two-net
16 restriction year-round. Simplification from the
17 original proposal, there would be one exception to
18 that, and it would be a closure, basically, of adding
19 the months of mid February to mid May to the current
20 closures out to five miles day and night to have a
21 December 1 to July 15 closure in that area,
22 essentially.
23 And the final recommendation would be --
24 the final would be the fee increases as originally
25 proposed. If I could, I will mention that some brief
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1 staff responses to some comments that we heard during
2 the regulations committee yesterday, and I appreciate
3 you-all taking the time to have those eight folks
4 participate in that process, as well as the comments
5 that we heard during the open session.
6 We did hear a concern about a potential
7 addition of a pulse fishery occurring in the south zone
8 when we open that area that could have negative impacts
9 on turtles. We need to point out that there is already
10 a two-month closure on the entire coast that goes in
11 conjunction with federal waters, out to 200 miles from
12 mid May to mid July, and so that opening is a
13 historical phenomena back to the sixties. We do have a
14 lot of boats that come and fish hard at that point, but
15 I would note that our rules do not change that except
16 to actually lessen that problem, because in the south
17 zone, within three nautical miles, they would be
18 restricted to two nets, which should reduce the impacts
19 on sea turtles and other species.
20 There was comments about the rising
21 catch-per-unit effort in the Gulf in the late nineties,
22 as documenting that there was -- we had reversed our
23 problems. I would note that that rise in the
24 catch-per-unit effort was a Gulf-wide estimate from
25 Dr. Nance. It has gone up and down. It has gone up in
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1 the nineties; it's gone down less than it's gone up,
2 which is the contention for why we have a slight rise;
3 however, off of Texas specifically, we do not see that
4 same amount of increase. The downward trend has
5 stabilized temporarily, but we have not risen anywhere
6 near to the historical, and, basically, you still have
7 a 40-year downward trend in, both, the Gulf and off
8 Texas in that very critical measure of overfishing, the
9 catch-per-unit effort. And, in addition, we have not
10 seen a rise in the bay catch-per-unit effort, which is
11 fishing on the same stocks.
12 In regard to some issues brought up
13 about the differences in privileges associated with the
14 bay and bait licenses, the legislature, in 1959, did
15 create two separate licenses with different intents for
16 those licenses. The bait license was given year-around
17 fishing privileges but with substantially less poundage
18 per day, to provide for a moderate amount of bait for a
19 recreational fishery on a year-round basis.
20 The bay license was created with seasons
21 and higher poundage limits. In fact, in the fall food
22 season, there is no limit per day. That was in order
23 to take advantage of the large biomass that occurs, of
24 shrimp, when the brown shrimp peak in the spring and
25 the white shrimp peak in the fall, and they could fill
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1 their food markets at those times.
2 Relating specifically to the issue of
3 the bycatch reduction devices and the differences
4 between a bay and bait license requirements, it is our
5 experience, from our working with the industry and
6 actually being on board the boats, that the bait
7 license holder, when he is using his shrimp as live
8 bait, the practices are that they will have a shorter
9 tow time; they will have different handling techniques
10 that will basically return a much larger percentage of
11 the bycatch to the bay in a live condition, so the
12 bycatch reduction device serves less purpose in the
13 bona fide bait license users' world. And when we
14 also -- it obviously also has created, and has been for
15 a long time, a live fish bait market from our sport
16 anglers, expanded from pin fish and pig fish, to
17 croakers now, and that market is a social demand that
18 the BRD exemption would make difficult to -- or without
19 the BRD exemption would make difficult to fulfill, and
20 that is a market that we think is worthy of being
21 served.
22 I would point out that the current
23 harvest of croakers for -- and used for bait, is less
24 than one percent of the current croaker bycatch that
25 we've documented throughout the fleet, on the bays, on
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1 an annual basis.
2 Had some issues surrounding the
3 management practices between Texas and Mexico and how
4 Mexico should not be used -- experience there should
5 not be used as an example of how to manage in Texas.
6 We would dispute that in that we recognize that they do
7 not have a limited entry in their inshore area, and
8 Texas does; that is major difference, but we both have
9 overcapitalization in our bay fleets, and we both do
10 not have limited entry in our Gulf fleets, which
11 continues to capitalize. Dr. Gracia, at his
12 presentation yesterday, actually documented that they
13 have more restrictive regulations on their shrimping,
14 in terms of closed seasons, than Texas does. They, for
15 example, have a 3 1/2-month -- we have a 3 1/3-month
16 closure in the Gulf; they have a 6 1/2-month closure or
17 longer in their Gulf. In the bays, they close their
18 bays to shrimping, basically, at the exact same time
19 that we open our bays to shrimping to protect -- their
20 goal was to protect the small shrimp. They also
21 prohibit shrimping day and night out to five fathoms on
22 their entire coast. Our depth closure off of Texas is
23 only for a nighttime closure, so there is fishing
24 during the day. Certainly, the lack of law enforcement
25 that has been alleged in Mexico complicates fishery
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1 management down there. We continue to have illegal
2 activity. Both legal and illegal activity contributes
3 to fishing mortality. But I would note that their
4 fishery -- we -- even with their closures and their
5 illegal fishing, led to collapses of their stocks. We
6 think that our regulations, which include some
7 additional closures, but with a higher level of law
8 enforcement that I think we'll be able to demonstrate
9 off Texas, will prevent that problem from happening in
10 Texas.
11 And, lastly, the issue of the
12 difference -- a changing of the market by having areas
13 that would no longer allow medium-sized shrimp to be
14 available to the market, I would tell you that
15 throughout this long process, as we meet with different
16 factions of the industry, we have heard that there is a
17 demand for every size shrimp that is available in the
18 life cycle, from the very smallest ones for the peeler
19 plants, the medium size for different markets, the
20 jumbo size, and that high rate of fishing pressure on
21 all those life cycles is certainly what has led to the
22 need for some of these regulations. The allegation
23 that the closed times in lower coast would reduce the
24 availability of medium-sized shrimp, we think, should
25 be alleviated by the fact that when that season opens
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1 down there, in mid July, there will be shrimping
2 allowed; there will be two nets inside of three miles;
3 there will be shrimping with no gear restrictions
4 outside of three miles, and that that market for the
5 medium-sized shrimp that apparently exists down there
6 can be filled with these current regulations.
7 The total closure of that south zone was
8 the biggest concern we heard from those marketing
9 needs, and we think that the regulations committee's
10 revised proposal addresses that.
11 Actually, I did have one other item. We
12 did hear in regards to turtle strandings that the
13 recreational fishery might actually account for twice
14 the amount of strandings associated with shrimp
15 trawlings. There was not a specific reference
16 scientifically given for that, but we did look back at
17 our National Research Council publication, which is the
18 most definitive study on that issue, from 1990, called
19 "Declines of the Sea Turtle: Causes and Prevention."
20 It states that the recreational fishing was considered
21 of low importance as a mortality factor on juveniles
22 and adults, and that, in combination with all other
23 commericial fisheries, other than shrimping and marine
24 debris, that the mortality effects of all of those
25 combined amounted to one tenth of the mortality
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1 documented from shrimp trawling.
2 So that would be our response to the
3 current comments that we heard, and we look forward to
4 hearing some additional ones, and I will offer, for the
5 record, the recommendation for the modified rule
6 changes.
7 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Mr. Osburn,
8 yesterday there was a commissioner from Matagorda
9 County, I believe, Mr. Delshotelt, that had some
10 comments about the seabob net, and I made a note, but I
11 wasn't specific about it. It sounded like a fairly
12 logical point at the time. Do you recall that
13 specifically?
14 MR. OSBURN: Yes, sir, we did have that,
15 and I was prepared to provide you our recommendation on
16 a possibility of amendments to the committee
17 regulations. I was thinking we would wait until after
18 all the additional public, but I would certainly, at
19 your pleasure, discuss that now. Or we could --
20 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Whatever you
21 prefer.
22 MR. OSBURN: -- wait until the end of
23 the --
24 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: I just want to
25 make sure --
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1 MR. OSBURN: -- other public comments.
2 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: At the time, it
3 sounded like something that we ought to look into.
4 MR. OSBURN: We have looked into that,
5 and we're ready to provide you some findings of fact on
6 that.
7 CHAIRMAN BASS: Mr. Osburn, I might
8 suggest we go ahead and do that now so that the public
9 comment could address that if they so choose.
10 MR. OSBURN: The recommendation -- and
11 we did have a lot of debate about this, and this is
12 with the seabob fishery, on changing the size of the
13 net. Currently, it's 25 feet. The proposal was 34
14 feet. It has been recommended to go as high as 50 feet
15 for that one net, and I would point out that the
16 fishery does have quite a bit of restrictions on it in
17 terms of they are only allowed to use one net at a
18 time, and they also have -- and one of the concerns in
19 the seabob fishery has historically been the take of
20 white shrimp that escaped from the bay in the fall and
21 are overwintering in the Gulf, to not have an excess
22 take there.
23 There is currently in law a 10 percent
24 allowance of white shrimp. So with the enforcement of
25 that rule, we can accept and recommend to you as an
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1 amendment an increase of that net size to 42 feet,
2 which provides additional opportunity. It would be a
3 liberalization, so it is within your authority to do
4 that, so it would be a change from the 25-foot net to a
5 42-foot net.
6 We also had a suggestion about the
7 nursery area provided in Matagorda Bay system. That
8 area is developing because of the diversion in the last
9 few years of the Colorado River into that area, and
10 certainly is in flux, and I think we would -- will be
11 one of those areas that we are going to see new oyster
12 reefs building in that area. We anticipate some new
13 oyster reefs building in that area, but there is
14 currently a line established by the Department of
15 Health, a shellfish marker line, dividing open waters
16 and closed waters, and for law enforcement purposes and
17 for lack of confusion with the fishing public, we can
18 accept moving our proposed nursery area line back to
19 that existing shellfish marker line, which would be a
20 reduction of some nursery area, but for our total
21 nursery area proposal throughout the coast, it would be
22 less than three percent change. So we can accept those
23 recommendations. And you would have to add that to
24 your regulations committee motion at the proper time.
25 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you.
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1 Any questions or comments from the
2 Commission of Mr. Osburn prior to taking public
3 testimony?
4 Being the case, we'll move to public
5 testimony, and there about 40 of you that have signed
6 up, so in order to be considerate of -- 41 of you that
7 have signed up. In order to be considerate to one
8 another, I will ask to you please keep tabs of the time
9 limits on your comments, and I'll also call the
10 successive names to prepare yourself so that you can be
11 prepared to take the podium in an expeditious manner.
12 I'd also like, for the sake of the
13 record, to note that there is -- to be entered in the
14 record that it's been presented to Ms. Estrada a number
15 of letters, one from the Texas Academy of Science, one
16 from Representative Tom Uher, one from the Port Isabel
17 Independent School District, and I believe that's all I
18 have in that regard, but they will be made part of the
19 record and I believe have been distributed to the
20 Commission.
21 First, I'd like to call Phillip Golden,
22 who I understand is in Senator Lucio's office, and if
23 you'd come forward, please, and give us your comments.
24 And I'd like Charles Caillouet from Galveston to be
25 prepared to speak next.
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1 Mr. Golden, the floor is yours.
2 MR. GOLDEN: Thank you, Chairman Bass,
3 members of the Committee.
4 My name is Phillip Golden. I am here on
5 behalf of Senator Eddie Lucio, Brownsville, Texas, who
6 could not be here today but asked me to share these
7 thoughts with you this morning.
8 "Dear Chairman Bass and members of the
9 Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission: It is with a
10 heavy heart and a feeling of great sadness that I
11 learned that the Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission
12 has decided to adopt regulations further encroaching on
13 the shrimping industry. I am therefore writing this
14 letter to Chairman Bass and the other members of the
15 executive committee of the Texas Parks and Wildlife
16 Department out of a deep sense of respect and
17 appreciation for all that do you for the people of
18 Texas and in the hopes that you will take a moment to
19 consider whether the course which you are about to
20 pursue is in the best interest of the citizens of this
21 state.
22 "At the June meeting of the Sunset
23 Advisory Commission, a motion requiring the Texas Parks
24 and Wildlife Department to do further study before
25 implementing any additional regulation of the shrimping
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1 industry passed unanimously. In an effort to
2 facilitate compromise, avoid a confrontation, and out
3 of respect for the members of this committee and this
4 agency's director, I agreed to table that motion until
5 the Sunset Advisory Commission meets again in
6 September. Although there have been public meetings to
7 try and resolve this issue, these meetings have failed
8 to reach any compromise or advance solution to this
9 problem.
10 "The Texas Parks and Wildlife
11 Department's recommendations are based on the premise
12 that there is possible overharvesting of shrimp along
13 the Texas coast; however, a study by James Nance of the
14 National Marine Fisheries Service in Galveston
15 concluded in 1998 that for all three species of shrimp
16 which live along the Texas coast, the parent number for
17 each of the three major peneaid shrimp species was
18 above the overfishing index in 1998.
19 "While I understand that Texas Parks and
20 Wildlife has data to the contrary, these conflicting
21 reports are irrefutable evidence of the need for an
22 independent, comprehensive, scientific study of the
23 health of Texas shrimping industry prior to the
24 implementation of any further regulation.
25 "If the conflicting scientific evidence
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1 is not convincing, one need only consider the
2 first-hand accounts of those individuals who are on the
3 front lines: The shrimpers. Anecdotal evidence
4 suggests that the harvest this year is of more and
5 larger shrimp, hardly a sign of an industry on the
6 verge of collapse.
7 "I understand that the members of this
8 committee are trying to do what they believe is right
9 for the State of Texas and I respect that. I would ask
10 that you show that same respect to the six state
11 senators and a dozen more members of the house of
12 representatives whose constituents live along the coast
13 and depend on the shrimping industry for their
14 livelihood. Forestalling the implementation of further
15 regulation of the shrimping industry would be
16 respectful of the wishes of the members of the Sunset
17 Advisory Commission, who supported my motion. It would
18 also show some deference to the other members of the
19 legislature by allowing them to consider this issue and
20 act in the interest of all Texans by taking this matter
21 up during the 77th legislative session.
22 "In conclusion, it has never been my
23 intent to be, in any manner, disrespectful or desultory
24 of the work of this committee or any of its members.
25 Quite the contrary. I laud you for your efforts and
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1 want to commend you for all that you do for the people
2 of Texas. I trust that your heart is in the right
3 place, and that your motives are praise-worthy, but I
4 am asking you to honor the wishes of the elected
5 officials of this state and undertake a comprehensive,
6 independent, scientific study of the shrimping
7 industry. I have had the opportunity to work with you,
8 and I have enjoyed that opportunity, and I look forward
9 to working together again in the future. However, I
10 would ask that you respect those people who confirmed
11 you in your present positions and forestall any further
12 regulation. Trying to regulate the shrimping industry
13 without a comprehensive, scientific study is like
14 trying to fix the foundation of a house without first
15 looking at the slab. You have to know first what the
16 problem is before you can solve it.
17 "Sincerely, Eddie Lucio, Jr., State
18 Senatory, District 27."
19 Finally, Chairman Bass, Senator Lucio
20 asked me to give you his card, including his cellphone
21 number, and to let you know that he is ready and
22 available to talk to you about this issue at any time.
23 Thank you ladies and gentlemen.
24 MR. SANSOM: You may give it to
25 Ms. Estrada here on the right, please.
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1 MR. GOLDEN: I received an instructions
2 to give it only to Mr. Bass.
3 MR. SANSOM: You may give it to
4 Ms. Estrada here on the right, please, sir.
5 CHAIRMAN BASS: He can give me the card.
6 That's fine.
7 MR. GOLDEN: Thank you, sir.
8 CHAIRMAN BASS: All right. Charles
9 Caillouet. And Edwin Price, if you'd be prepared to
10 speak next.
11 MR. CAILLOUET: My name is Charles
12 Caillouet. I am a private citizen of Galveston, Texas.
13 I do not represent any agency, organization, or
14 industry. My comments are my own opinions.
15 I'm a retired fishery scientist. I
16 spent 34 years in universities and the Federal
17 Government working in fishery science the last 26 years
18 of that with the National Marine Fisheries Service in
19 Galveston, Texas.
20 I have submitted written comments and
21 ask that they be placed in the record of this meeting.
22 They contain quite a few and important details not
23 covered by my oral comments.
24 I'm concerned about recovery of the
25 shrimp stocks, other important fishery stocks, and sea
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1 turtle populations in coastal Texas. These are
2 important parts of the state's natural wildlife
3 heritage. These are common property resources and
4 should be managed to enhance and perpetuate all the
5 economic and social benefits they provide for the
6 common good.
7 Evidence of growth overfishing of the
8 Gulf of Mexico brown shrimp and white shrimp stocks
9 have been developing for four decades. Growth
10 overfishing occurs when fishing effort exceeds the
11 amount needed to produce maximum sustainable yield or
12 maximum yield per recruit. Growth overfishing has
13 negative economic and social impacts, and it's not a
14 very efficient use of the resource.
15 Recruitment overfishing occurs when
16 fishing effort continues to increase beyond levels that
17 produce growth overfishing until the stocks collapse.
18 The stock collapses when spawners are too few to
19 produce enough offspring to restore the stock.
20 Recruitment overfishing has negative ecological as well
21 as economic and social impacts. The negative impacts
22 of recruitment overfishing are much more severe, and
23 they're either prolonged or permanent. The exact
24 timing of recruitment overfishing is difficult, if not
25 impossible, to predict in advance, so management should
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1 be very conservative to prevent it.
2 The status of brown shrimp and white
3 shrimp stocks could actually be worse than shown by the
4 available stock assessments. These assessments contain
5 potentially serious flaws that are explained -- some of
6 which are explained in my written comments.
7 I believe there is a need for a thorough
8 statistical examination of the shrimp data, the
9 estimation methods, and the stock assessment methods.
10 Nevertheless, I support new shrimping regulations aimed
11 at reducing the risk of recruitment overfishing.
12 I also would recommend a no-shrimping
13 zone be established along the entire Texas coast as a
14 coastal safe haven in near-shore waters of the Gulf of
15 Mexico. I suggest that a near-shore no-shrimping zone
16 be established only on an experimental basis for at
17 least three years, and it should extend the entire
18 length of the Texas coast and be year-around in
19 duration.
20 If new shrimping regulations are
21 adopted, their impact should be assessed annually for,
22 at least, three years; the assessment should be
23 conducted cooperatively between Texas Parks and
24 Wildlife Department and National Marine Fisheries
25 Service, and cover the Texas coastal waters and
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1 adjacent federal waters. Only after the impacts of
2 experimental closures are assessed should any permanent
3 closures be considered.
4 Again, I thank the Commission for this
5 opportunity to comment.
6 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, sir. Excuse
7 me, sir. Commissioner Dinkins has a question for you
8 before you relinquish the podium.
9 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Dr. Caillouet,
10 thank you for the very thoughtful and lengthy comments
11 that you have filed.
12 It appears to me, from looking at the CV
13 that you attached to it, that you were 26 years with
14 NMFS; is that correct?
15 MR. CAILLOUET: With the National Marine
16 Fisheries Service, yes.
17 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: And you studied
18 shrimp at least part of that time, did you?
19 MR. CAILLOUET: About the first half of
20 that, I worked on shrimp, and about the last half
21 worked on sea turtles.
22 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Thank you. And do
23 you think that growth overfishing creates a biological
24 problem for the shrimp?
25 MR. CAILLOUET: It creates a biological
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1 problem in the sense that you're harvesting -- you're
2 using more fishing effort than is required to maximize
3 the benefit to the users, both in terms of total
4 production of shrimp, the weight of production, as well
5 as the value of that weight of production. So by
6 fishing less, you can actually increase the amount of
7 shrimp produced and increase the average size, which
8 would bring a much greater monetary benefit to the
9 users as well as the --
10 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: So you see that
11 primarily as an economic issue, not a biological issue?
12 MR. CAILLOUET: It's an economic issue
13 in large measure, but it's also a biological phenomenon
14 which creates these economic and social problems.
15 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Yesterday we heard
16 from Dr. Zimmerman and Dr. Nance at NMFS, and they
17 talked in terms of conservative estimates, and I
18 believe they were talking in the area of recruitment
19 overfishing.
20 MR. CAILLOUET: That's correct.
21 Unfortunately, both, the National Marine Fisheries
22 Service and the Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management
23 Council have totally ignored the growth overfishing
24 issue in terms of the written documentation about the
25 fisheries. If you read most of the publications or
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1 look at the published record, you will see that they
2 define overfishing only in terms of recruitment
3 overfishing and don't really deal with issue of growth
4 overfishing.
5 Now, I know their testimony yesterday
6 admitted that there is growth overfishing, but the
7 point at which growth overfishing moves to recruitment
8 overfishing can't be predicted, and so most managers
9 would recommend a very conservative approach to prevent
10 recruitment overfishing at all costs.
11 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Well, I appreciate
12 your clarifying that.
13 I had asked them yesterday also about
14 their regulatory efforts in federal waters, and with
15 your experience in NMFS, I would appreciate hearing
16 whether it's your view that the state need that action
17 or not, given the fact that the National Marine
18 Fisheries Service works on shrimp issues in federal
19 waters.
20 MR. CAILLOUET: Well, it's an excellent
21 question. I'm glad to have an opportunity to deal with
22 that.
23 The shrimp don't recognize any of these
24 boundaries between the state and the federal
25 government, and fishery scientists usually look at the
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1 fishery as a whole stock, wherever it occurs. And so
2 this partitioning between federal waters and state
3 waters complicates the problem and basically requires
4 that both the state and federal government work
5 together in managing the stock for the benefit of
6 everyone.
7 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Thank you.
8 Mr. Chairman, I had one other question.
9 And that is, the proposals that we're
10 considering today -- and I'm talking now about the ones
11 that were referred from committee yesterday, the
12 modified proposals -- do you believe that those
13 proposals will help in reversing the trends that you
14 described in your prepared remarks?
15 MR. CAILLOUET: My primary concern has
16 to do with the white shrimp and particularly the
17 spawning white shrimp and, for the most part, closing a
18 zone in the southern part of the state is not going to
19 improve the situation with the white shrimp spawners
20 which occur, for the most part, in the northern part of
21 the state. However, any reduction in the amount of
22 fishing effort, by whatever means, should help the
23 situation. We can only wait and tell. We can't
24 predict it in advance.
25 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Thank you.
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1 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
2 CHAIRMAN BASS: Any questions?
3 Edwin Price. And Donna Shaver, I
4 believe it is, from Corpus Christi, if you'd be
5 prepared to speak next.
6 Mr. Price.
7 MR. PRICE: My name is Edwin Price. I'm
8 from Lake Arthur, Louisiana. I'm a commercial
9 shrimper; been a shrimper all my life. I have fished
10 the Texas state waters since 1952. I have an 80-foot
11 vessel, dragging 200 foot of webbing, so, therefore, I
12 catch out the white shrimp in the state of Texas.
13 Back in the early nineties, we couldn't
14 even make a living in the Louisiana or Texas state
15 waters dragging 200 foot of web, and Louisiana came out
16 with a new law eliminating the webbing. They
17 eliminated the webbing to 130 foot of top webbing.
18 In the year 1999, the white shrimp made
19 a big comeback. In 1999 and the year 2000, I done real
20 well in the Louisiana waters; couldn't make a living in
21 the state waters with 200 foot of webbing.
22 I crossed over for the July opening.
23 July the 6th, I was off High Island, Texas, dragging
24 130 foot of webbing. My first drag, an hour-and-a-half
25 drag, I had two boxes of 9/12s. The second drag, I
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1 drug it much longer, had 80 pounds. The third drag, I
2 did not catch a shrimp in my try net. I drug it much
3 longer and I had 20 pounds and had to leave. There was
4 well over 100 boats bigger than mine dragging double
5 the webbing I was dragging. So, therefore, I had to go
6 back to Louisiana to finish out my trip. And I do
7 believe if there could be a limited webbing in Texas,
8 as Louisiana got, I do believe it would bring the white
9 shrimp back. We get more and more boats in. Bayou
10 Labokrae is not selling out no more contracts due to so
11 many boats that's being built. In the next three
12 years -- we think the fall of the fish stock now? Wait
13 for the next two to three years and see the boats we're
14 going to have in there. Something has got to be done
15 to bring the white shrimp back. Thank you.
16 CHAIRMAN BASS: Donna Shaver. And Les
17 Hodgson, if you'd be prepared to speak next.
18 MS. SHAVER: Thank you. My name is
19 Dr. Donna Shaver. I am the station leader of the U.S.
20 Geological Survey, Biological Resources Division,
21 Columbia Environmental Research Center, Padre Island
22 Field Station. I'm also the Texas coordinator of the
23 Sea Turtle Stranding and Salvage Network.
24 I have worked with sea turtles in south
25 Texas for over 20 years, and I oversee a variety of sea
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1 turtle research and conservation efforts conducted
2 there. I've delivered 60 scientific presentations and
3 authored or coauthored 74 reports and publications
4 dealing with sea turtles. Dateline, Discovery News,
5 New York Times, Washington Post, Southern Living, and
6 numerous other media outlets have featured my work.
7 I am a sea turtle research biologist and
8 hence will restrict my comments on the proposed
9 regulations to sea turtles and my research.
10 Kemp's Ridley is the most critically
11 endangered sea turtle species in the world. For over
12 two decades, an international multiagency attempt has
13 been underway to establish a secondary nesting colony
14 of Kemp's Ridley turtles in south Texas as a safeguard
15 for this species. Eighty-eight percent of the Kemp's
16 Ridley nests that have been documented in the United
17 States have been found in Texas, but, unfortunately, 77
18 percent of the dead adults found washed ashore in the
19 U.S. since 1995 have been found on Texas shores. All
20 documented Kemp's Ridley nesting in Texas has been in
21 south Texas, but, again, unfortunately, more dead adult
22 Kemp's Ridleys have been located in south Texas than at
23 any other location in the United States.
24 Of the 102 dead adult Kemp's Ridleys
25 found washed ashore on south Texas Gulf beaches since
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1 1995, 99, or 97.1 percent, were located during times
2 when Gulf waters off the Texas coast were open to
3 shrimp trawling.
4 Five sea turtle species have been
5 documented nesting on the Texas coast, but numbers
6 currently nesting there are low and hence vulnerable to
7 collapse.
8 To ensure that nesting of these native
9 Texans continues to occur here in the future, it is
10 necessary that the adults survive once they come here
11 to mate and to nest. Also, survival of juveniles and
12 subadults in the marine environment is important to
13 help sustain populations of all of these threatened and
14 endangered species.
15 As a U.S. Geological Survey employee, I
16 am not allowed to advocate or to urge you to adopt
17 these regulations. What I can say is that it is my
18 scientific opinion that the proposed regulations would
19 have some side benefits to sea turtles. However, a
20 year-round closure of the southern zone, out to five
21 miles, would be more beneficial than would be a
22 seasonal closure towards helping to ensure the survival
23 of sea turtles in our waters and the future of sea
24 turtle nesting on the Texas coast. Thank you very much
25 for this opportunity to speak to you.
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1 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, Ms. Shaver.
2 MS. SHAVER: Thank you.
3 CHAIRMAN BASS: Questions?
4 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Mr. Chairman, I
5 have a question.
6 CHAIRMAN BASS: Yes, sir.
7 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: We've gotten a lot
8 of different information about the numbers of Kemp's
9 Ridley turtles that are nesting in the Mexico area
10 where, I guess, is, by and large, the most common area
11 for those turtles. Could you tell me what your
12 understanding is of the number of turtles that have
13 nested there that past year?
14 MS. SHAVER: This past year, they've had
15 an excellent nesting season, where there have been a
16 little over 6,000 nests that have been found. The low
17 point for the Kemp's Ridley population, as far as the
18 number of nests found, is thought to be around 1985.
19 Of these encouraging results this year, though, there's
20 still a long way to go. There was a film that was shot
21 in 1947 that showed an estimated 40,000 Kemp's Ridley
22 females nesting at that primary nesting beach at Rancho
23 Nuevo on one day in 1947. So although there's
24 encouraging news with this species, there's certainly a
25 long way to go.
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1 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: The number is now
2 up over 6,000 you believe?
3 MS. SHAVER: For the number of nests
4 this year. That does not equate to the number of
5 nesting females.
6 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Right.
7 MS. SHAVER: That's the number of nests.
8 COMMISSIONER HEATH: What was the '85
9 number?
10 MS. SHAVER: The number was down, I
11 believe about 725, somewhere in that range, for the
12 number of nests found.
13 COMMISSIONER HEATH: Seven-hundred and
14 twenty-five nests in '85?
15 MS. SHAVER: I believe somewhere between
16 700 and 800, I think, was the low point of the number
17 of nests found.
18 COMMISSIONER HEATH: So from '85 through
19 today, the growth from that was 6,000?
20 MS. SHAVER: Yes. Now, this year was a
21 definite spike over the line of -- that shows the
22 number of nests found by year. This year was a good
23 year there. On the Texas coast, though, we were down.
24 We went from 16 down to 12. We were decreased.
25 COMMISSIONER RYAN: Could you tell me
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1 how many nests you had on Padre Island this spring, and
2 then, also, could you tell me the time frame in which
3 they nest?
4 MS. SHAVER: The number of nests found
5 on the Texas coast this year was 12, down from 16 we
6 found last year. These nests were found during April,
7 May, and June of this year.
8 COMMISSIONER RYAN: And could you tell
9 me what time frames that the majority of the sea
10 turtles that you lost in the strandings, what time of
11 year that happened?
12 MS. SHAVER: For adult strandings of
13 Kemp's Ridleys on the Texas coast, for this specific
14 closed season that is being evaluated now, the 7.5
15 months, that would encompass about 65 percent of the
16 times when stranded adult Ridleys have been found on
17 the Texas coast in the last 5 years. But as I said in
18 my statement, though, for the traditional Texas
19 closure, there have only been 3 out of 102 adult Kemp's
20 Ridleys that have been found during that traditional
21 Texas closure. Ninety-seven percent were found when
22 the Gulf waters were open.
23 COMMISSIONER IDSAL: Mr. Chairman, I've
24 got a question.
25 Just to repeat, there were 102 stranded
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1 turtles since --
2 MS. SHAVER: A hundred and two adult
3 Kemp's Ridleys found on south Texas Gulf beaches since
4 1995.
5 COMMISSIONER IDSAL: Is there a level --
6 at the risk of sounding callous here. I certainly
7 don't feel callous. Is there a biologically acceptable
8 level of strandings where the Ridleys could come back
9 and suffer some strandings and mortality?
10 MS. SHAVER: There was an expert working
11 group that was amassed to try to answer that specific
12 question, and they weren't able to arrive at a figure
13 that could be -- they just couldn't arrive at one, to
14 answer that specific question. But what I can say is
15 for -- in Texas, with our mortality of dead adults,
16 what we're finding, in the relation to the number of
17 nests, each year, we find more dead adults than we do
18 nests, and the population of nesting turtles in that
19 area cannot be sustained if you continue to kill more
20 adults than you do have nests. There can't be
21 recruitment in the future. So we -- the number of
22 adults that die in south Texas has to be reduced to
23 help ensure nesting in the future there.
24 COMMISSIONER IDSAL: Are those adults
25 that are being found hatching on Texas beaches or in
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1 Mexico?
2 MS. SHAVER: We do not know. We've had
3 some that have had tags from Mexico. Many times when
4 we find these turtles, they are missing their flippers,
5 missing scutes, so there's no way to link them to any
6 particular area. They don't have the tags that would
7 have been placed on them.
8 COMMISSIONER IDSAL: So the answer is
9 we're not sure whether those are turtles that were
10 hatched on South Padre Island or in Mexico; we just
11 don't know?
12 MS. SHAVER: We don't know exactly where
13 they were hatched, for the most part, yes. Only a few
14 do continue to have their tags on them.
15 COMMISSIONER WATSON: You know, I think
16 it might be helpful if you'd give us just a very brief
17 overview of the life cycle. I mean, we've heard that,
18 what, 300,000 juveniles have been released this year?
19 MS. SHAVER: The life cycle of a sea
20 turtle?
21 COMMISSIONER WATSON: Yeah. In other
22 words, of the 300,000 juveniles you released, how many
23 of them are going to live?
24 MS. SHAVER: It's thought that only
25 between 1 in 100 and 1 in 1,000 eggs will yield an
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1 individual that survives to adulthood.
2 COMMISSIONER WATSON: And how long is
3 that?
4 MS. SHAVER: Only -- From a clutch of
5 eggs, only one, from a whole batch of eggs, 100 eggs,
6 may --
7 COMMISSIONER WATSON: Well, what's an
8 adult?
9 MS. SHAVER: Adult is the -- An adult is
10 a breeding individual, after 10 to 15 years.
11 COMMISSIONER WATSON: How old?
12 MS. SHAVER: Oh. For a Kemp's Ridley,
13 10 to 15 years for adulthood. Other species it takes
14 longer. Green turtles, it may take up to 50 years to
15 become an adult ready to reproduce. So even though
16 many were released, the survivorship in the wild is
17 low. There's a lot of mortality that occurs on those
18 smaller turtles, so it will not yield 300,000 adults.
19 Many of those 300,000 will never -- most of them. Most
20 of those will never make it to adulthood. Thank you.
21 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, Ms. Shaver.
22 Les Hodgson. And, Larry Hodgson, if
23 you'd be prepared to speak next.
24 MR. HODGSON: Mr. Chairman,
25 Commissioners, staff of Parks and Wildlife, my name is
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1 Les Hodgson. I am in the commercial shrimp industry
2 out of Brownsville, Texas. I'm also a volunteer on the
3 Kemp's Ridley Recovery Stranding Team -- or Recovery
4 Team, and I work on that project a number of months out
5 of the year. Most of the work is done in Mexico.
6 In 1999, I was given the highest award
7 by the United States Government Department of Commerce
8 for my work with Kemp's Ridley sea turtles.
9 In 2000, I was given one of the Gulf
10 Guardian awards from the Gulf of Mexico Foundation for
11 my work with sea turtles, and I think I have some
12 knowledge on it, and I would like to share some of that
13 with you today, partly because of the concerns over
14 some of the statements that were made by Mr. Hal Osburn
15 here a few minutes ago. And he's talking about the
16 strandings and the relationship of strandings with
17 shrimp boats.
18 There was a 1990 National Academy of
19 Science study done that indicated that shrimp trawling
20 was the biggest human effect on the stranding of sea
21 turtles, and that is quoted quite often. If you go on
22 and read the end of that report, it also said that if
23 turtle excluder devices were used on shrimp trawlers,
24 it could exclude up to 97 percent of those.
25 The following year after that came out,
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1 turtle excluder devices were required on shrimp boats.
2 The U.S. Coast Guard certifies that we have a very high
3 compliance rate with using the turtle excluder devices.
4 So I'm afraid that pointing the finger at the shrimp
5 fleet as regularly as it's done is possibly a very big
6 mistake.
7 The Stranding Network in the United
8 States indicates that last year, in 1999 -- and I'm
9 going to read from the U.S. Government Stranding
10 Network report -- that there were -- from January 31st
11 through 31 December 1999, 50 of the 385 turtles found
12 stranded offshore were linked to likely stranding
13 causes: Three hypothermic stunned; twenty-two
14 hatchlings and posthatchlings that drifted onshore with
15 currents; two wedged in jettie rocks; one with a rope
16 tied around its flippers and/or neck; four entangled in
17 non-fishing gear medium; two with tar on the body; five
18 in an emaciated condition; three entangled in fishing
19 line; three entangled in fishing net; one with a hook
20 in the flipper or other soft part; one with
21 monofilament or steel line protruding from the cloaca;
22 and three with monofilament line found in the digestive
23 tract.
24 Of these 50 with likely stranding
25 causes, there's a good chance that none of these were
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1 related to shrimping --
2 MR. SANSOM: Thank you, Mr. Hodgson. If
3 you could conclude your statement. Thank you very
4 much.
5 MR. HODGSON: Thank you.
6 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, sir.
7 Larry Hodgson. And, Mina Williams, if
8 you'd be prepared to speak next.
9 MR. HODGSON: Commissioners, Larry
10 Hodgson, Marco Sales. I'm going to very briefly
11 conclude what my brother needed to tell you, and that
12 is that the strandings this year offshore had a total
13 of 40 turtles stranded during the closed Texas shrimp
14 season, and after the season opened and the world of
15 boats descended on our coast. In the next 7 weeks, we
16 had only 33 strandings. So the correlations do not
17 exist, and we'll give that information later. I'm
18 going to rush very quickly because three minutes is a
19 horrible amount of time to try to defend your industry.
20 I'm going to tell you that we've been told by the
21 scientist yesterday that there is no recruitment over
22 fishing. We all agree on that. We were told by
23 Mr. Osburn that Parks and Wildlife sees no imminent
24 collapse of the shrimp industry, and based on those
25 facts, I'm going to tell you that you have an awesome
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1 responsibility today. You have an awesome
2 responsibility to decide, in this rush to judgment,
3 what happens to the lives of a lot of people. I'm
4 telling you that this is not necessary, that with no
5 imminent collapse and with no recruitment problem, we
6 can take our time to do this right.
7 You're hearing a lot of conflicting
8 evidence, much of it by scientists who disagree with
9 each other, not on the statistics, but the degree on
10 the interpretation of those. And I'm telling you that
11 we believe -- we're not opposed to some regulation.
12 I'm telling you that regulation is necessary, but it's
13 got to be done responsibly.
14 I'm going to tell you that unless you're
15 ready to accept as the gospel truth 100 percent of
16 Parks and Wildlife's staff's interpretation today, that
17 you have a responsibility to delay this, allow us to
18 sit at the table with Parks and Wildlife staff, which
19 we have not been allowed.
20 I talked about process yesterday. Give
21 us the two years that our scientists are telling us it
22 would take to properly analyze the situation.
23 The turtles are coming back, both on
24 Texas beaches and Mexican beaches. The shrimp
25 situation is improving. They're telling you that our
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1 stocks are improving. They're telling you that we
2 don't have an impending collapse. They're telling you
3 that our catch-per-unit effort is actually increasing.
4 And I'm telling you that I can't even believe that,
5 because in the last 10 years, we've been forced to
6 accept a turtle excluder device and a fish bycatch
7 reduction device that is said to eliminate somewhere
8 between 25 and 30 percent of our catch. If our
9 catch-per-unit effort is going up, in spite of having
10 two holes put in our nets, I would tell you the
11 situation looks pretty good, and that the rush to
12 judgment, should not, cannot, must not take place.
13 MR. SANSOM: Thank you, Mr. Hodgson.
14 MR. HODGSON: Thank you.
15 CHAIRMAN BASS: Mina Williams. And,
16 Carole Allen, if you'd be prepared to speak next.
17 MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Commissioner
18 Bass and other commissioners.
19 What I am struck by this morning -- You
20 see I am here without paper, because I do better when I
21 just speak from the heart.
22 I'm not going to overspeak, Andy, but
23 what I am going to say is that I certainly do not envy
24 you, the responsibility that you have. I respect you,
25 though. And what I have learned in the last two days
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1 and working with several of you as one the members of
2 the shrimp working group, is that this is a very
3 complex, very vexatious problem.
4 I stand here before you as an ardent
5 advocate of sea turtle/endangered species preservation.
6 I can't backtrack on that because I am concerned with
7 posterities having an opportunity to do what I have had
8 an opportunity to do as a volunteer at the Seashore
9 since I retired after teaching English for 40 years.
10 And if that won't make you crazy, nothing will. But I
11 will tell you that I have a very great bias towards
12 seeing that these creatures are preserved on Texas
13 waters. All at the same time, I celebrate with the
14 Mexican people for their exponential recovery, and I
15 pray to God that it continues.
16 But what I ask you to do is to account
17 for, pay attention to -- I know -- I see what you're up
18 against. But what I would ask you to do is to weigh,
19 to the best of your ability, the arguments, and then,
20 of course, with the grace of God, make the best
21 judgment you can, realizing that there isn't going to
22 be a perfect answer, but that only 1.5 percent of the
23 dollar catch comes from the southern zone. And having
24 said that, I realize that works against some people
25 economically; it can also work for them, as Dr.
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1 Caillouet has said and Dr. Shaver has said, and so I
2 leave this conundrum in your hands with full assurance
3 that you will make a wise decision. Thank you.
4 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, Ms. Williams.
5 Carole Allen. And, Jose Antonio
6 Ramirez, if you'd be prepared to speak after Ms. Allen.
7 MS. ALLEN: Good morning. I'm Carole
8 Allen of Houston. Eighteen years ago, I formed an
9 organization called HEART, with kids and parents and
10 teachers: Help Endangered Animals Ridley Turtles, and
11 it's all about the Kemp's Ridley. And I'm not going to
12 be offended when you look at your little book because
13 when I'm doing my three minutes here, I'm going to
14 talk, and please look at this little book that have I
15 brought you.
16 I support the mission statement that you
17 have. The reason that I have always been involved in
18 this is our children, what is -- the ones that are
19 going to take over when we're done. Your mission
20 statement -- And I know you take it very seriously
21 because I heard what Chairman Bass said this morning --
22 to manage and conserve the natural and cultural
23 resources of Texas for the use and enjoyment of present
24 and future generations. That's the children of the
25 shrimpers, too. What are they going to have out there?
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1 This is for the preservation of endangered species, and
2 if you'll look at the cover, you'll see all this
3 started in 1983, and it was with the Post, so you know
4 the Post has been gone for a long time. And if you
5 look through it, those kids have grown up, and now we
6 have more children concerned with the Kemp's Ridley sea
7 turtles.
8 I have been waiting for 18 years for the
9 state of Texas to do what they said they were going to
10 do in April. I was here in April and heard the
11 proposal, and I was thrilled because I've been waiting
12 all this time for this to happen, and it's a good
13 thing. I'm very excited about it. As the summer went
14 on, I was disappointed that I was hearing things. I
15 wasn't invited to the two meetings, but I was hearing
16 that things were changing and that the data was being
17 questioned. I trust the data, okay? I know it can be
18 interpreted different ways. But I think we have some
19 outstanding people here. I trust it. And I'm not
20 going to touch on the numbers; we have so many experts
21 here and others who are not but are tossing out
22 numbers, but I do want to say I am very concerned about
23 closing the southern zone for a while, for 7 1/2
24 months, then when all the shrimpers come over from the
25 other states, then opening it in July, when everybody
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1 comes over here, and then we open the southern zone.
2 I'd like to see the five-mile closure.
3 Dr. Caillouet talked about the benefit of the shrimp
4 and the turtles. But I know you are above political
5 pressure. There's got to be some around, and you're
6 above it. You can make decisions based on that mission
7 that you have, and I hope you'll do that today, and
8 thank you very much.
9 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, Ms. Allen.
10 Mr. Ramirez. And, Pat Suter, if you'd
11 be prepared to speak next.
12 MR. RAMIREZ: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
13 Everybody, good morning. I would just like to add to
14 my statement yesterday.
15 First of all, being very glad that
16 Dr. Gracia is present, because if we had listened to
17 Dr. Gracia's recommendations 20 years ago, Mexico
18 wouldn't be in the trouble it is today. But it is very
19 important to note that the zero to five fathom closure
20 was a desperate measure that we as industry advocated
21 the government to impose back in 1993 to try to return
22 the shrimp stocks in the Campeche Bay area to a healthy
23 state. But you have to take into consideration also
24 that the late 1970s, and specifically in 1975, oil
25 drilling operations started in the area of the Bay of
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1 Campeche, which, as you are all very well aware, it's a
2 very big drilling operation right now, where more than
3 150 rigs work in there, with plans for expansion to 100
4 more. So pollution in that area is very much important
5 in what's happening to the pink and white shrimp
6 stocks.
7 The juvenile overfishing continues, of
8 course, because of the poor law enforcement and the use
9 of different types of gears in the bays which are not
10 used in Texas. What I'm trying to say is that the
11 Texas situation has no relation to what has happened in
12 Mexico in the last 20 years. It is impossible to know
13 whether the zero to five fathom closure works because
14 there are too many other things happening, with
15 pollution from the oil rigs, the poaching from the
16 illegal fishermen. We know it's a logical step to
17 take, but it's impossible to measure whether that's
18 helping or not.
19 And just in closing, what I've seen
20 happening in Texas with the shrimp production in the
21 last three to fours years, actually, it's amazing. I
22 wish my boats had been able to fish on the American
23 side of the Gulf of Mexico for the last few years. And
24 I say this with a certain degree of cynicism, because I
25 remember back 10, 15 years ago when it was the Texas
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1 shrimpers who were trying to cross down to Mexico to
2 catch our shrimp. Thank you.
3 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, Mr. Ramirez.
4 Pat Suter. And, Wesley Blevens, if
5 you'd be prepared to speak after Ms. Suter.
6 MS. SUTER: Thank you for the
7 opportunity to speak. I'm Pat Suter. I'm president of
8 the Coastal Bend Environmental Coalition, headquartered
9 in Corpus Christi, and chairman of the Coastal Bend
10 Sierra Club in the same city.
11 I would like to say that we are in
12 support of the proposition that is put before you today
13 on behalf of the staff. We believe that the process of
14 public hearings and public comment has been excellent
15 and that you have heard all sides. As someone said a
16 few minutes ago, we don't envy you to try and find the
17 balance between the needs of the industry, which is
18 upset about rules and regulations as all of us are, and
19 the needs to preserve our endangered species for future
20 generations.
21 We are in support of year-round closure,
22 particularly in the southern zone where the Ridley
23 turtles are, but we're also in support of the
24 shrimpers. And I would like to tell you that we have
25 worked with the shrimping industry, from the
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1 environmental community, on several projects. We
2 worked in the seventies on chemical pollution in the
3 nursery areas in Nueces Bay. We worked on dredging in
4 the eighties. In the nineties, we worked on water
5 releases. And in all cases, we were in collaboration
6 with the shrimping industries, with their organized
7 groups, with independent shrimpers. And I believe and
8 our organizations believe that we can work together
9 with them in the 21st century beginning right now.
10 There's no reason why we have to have
11 this total confrontation. Reasonable people can come
12 to a compromise, and if nobody is 100 percent
13 satisfied, then you probably have a pretty good
14 compromise. Thank you very much.
15 I have a petition here signed in the
16 last three weeks by a few people. I will leave it with
17 the secretary over there. Thank you.
18 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you. If you'd
19 give it to Ms. Estrada, we would appreciate it, and it
20 will be entered in the record.
21 Wesley Blevens. And, John Shinault, if
22 you'd be prepared to speak next.
23 MR. BLEVENS: My name is Wesley Blevens
24 and I'd like to thank y'all for letting me speak here
25 today.
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1 As y'all know, we are against all of the
2 regulations as they are right now. We would like to
3 work with Parks and Wildlife and make some changes.
4 There are changes that do need to be made, but in San
5 Antonio Bay, we do not need no bay closures, and I
6 explained to Robin and them earlier this morning that
7 there is a big -- lot of obstructions in where this
8 line is, and it's going to cause a problem. Besides,
9 it's devastating to the small boat; it's going to make
10 them go down to the lake and compete with the bigger
11 boats and cause more pressure down the bay, and there's
12 no reason for this line that we're talking about. I've
13 already explained it to them and they know it. And
14 even their own biologist claimed that there's no reason
15 for this line.
16 Norman Boyd at Port O'Connor, he says
17 the same thing. And as you know, Bill West said
18 yesterday that they were looking at getting the water
19 flow back into the Bays like it belongs. We talked to
20 him and the Corps of Engineers. They're looking into
21 it right now. So that will help us a whole lot.
22 As far as the fish excluded devices,
23 we've already got -- in our area down there, we've
24 already got some of the best fish excluder devices that
25 there are. As y'all know, we shoot cabbage heads
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1 through ours, Kemp turtle shooters as well. So we
2 narrow the grids down, like, to three inches, two and a
3 half inches, and as long as anybody moves the grid
4 down, from four inches to three inches, even Parks --
5 anybody that does any studies on it will tell you
6 that's the best fish excluder device going, whenever
7 the grid comes down. So if you got a grid in your net
8 that's three inches or smaller, you should not have to
9 have a fish excluder behind that because you already
10 got the best fish excluder going. And we feel that if
11 anybody has to pull a fish excluder, everybody should
12 have to pull a fish excluder, in our area down there
13 especially.
14 I can't speak for all of the Gulf people
15 because I don't know what the conditions are out there,
16 but in the bay, all boats should have to have a fish
17 excluder, because one side of the industry should not
18 have to save one part for everybody else to go out and
19 target. Whenever they go target, the species that
20 we're trying to save, they are going for that species
21 particularly. And when we're shrimping, we are not
22 targeted in that species; we do not catch that much of
23 it. What they are after is the croakers, and we don't
24 look for croakers. And whenever they go specifically
25 to catch croakers, they catch more flounder, they catch
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1 more everything else because they drag closer to the
2 beach, on the edge of the flats, where, most of the
3 time, the shrimping is not going on in that area.
4 And -- I see I'm about to run out of
5 time here, and I appreciate y'all letting me speak.
6 I'm not a really good speaker, but I was trying -- and
7 they already moved the line a little bit in Galveston,
8 in East Bay, and we've got 30 areas, major areas, of
9 closed waters where we work in our area right now. So
10 we don't need no more closed waters. Thank you.
11 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, Mr. Blevens.
12 We appreciate your comments and efforts.
13 John Shinault. And, Teri Shore, if
14 you'd be prepared to speak next.
15 MR. SHINAULT: Mr. Chairman, members of
16 the Board, I'm John Shinault, commercial fisherman.
17 Statistics say fear of dying is second to speaking in
18 public, and I believe this to be true. But after
19 hearing all of the false accusations yesterday, I have
20 to speak up.
21 Our fishing grounds have been called
22 killing fields for turtles. Not true. All commercial
23 fishermen pull turtle excluder devices.
24 One person said yesterday, "We're all
25 getting fat off of our $11 a pound. Not true, as you
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1 can see standing before you. I make an average $1.25
2 per pound before expenses.
3 Texas Parks and Wildlife has a licensed
4 buy-back program that has met its quota and then some.
5 I ask that you give this program a chance to work, and
6 I oppose any new proposals. Thank you.
7 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, Mr. Shinault.
8 Teri Shore. And if Terry Ricks would be
9 prepared to speak next.
10 MS. SHORE: Good morning. I'm Teri
11 Shore. I'm with the Sea Turtle Restoration Project.
12 We're an international conservation and advocacy group
13 based in northern California. Hello to the
14 commissioners, Chairman Bass, Director Sansom. Thank
15 you once again for your attention to the shrimp
16 regulations and the impacts on the shrimp fishery and
17 the sea turtles. I appreciate your time and also the
18 bold vision of Texas Parks and Wildlife in being
19 willing to take some important steps toward the
20 protection of our coastal ecosystems.
21 What I would like to do today is talk
22 about the support that you have for these measures and
23 to urge you to adopt the original measures which
24 include a five-mile nautical mile closure along the
25 south Texas coast, a permanent year-round closure, and
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1 I hope you will weigh heavily the science that was
2 presented to you yesterday and to the testimony that is
3 being given to you today by sea turtle biologists and
4 also by fisheries biologists.
5 In particular today, we have a very
6 special guest, a sea turtle expert formerly from Texas
7 A & M University, David Owens, who will also be talking
8 today.
9 The support for these measures is strong
10 and building. Everyone across the country is watching
11 what the state of Texas is going to do, and I
12 appreciate the process because it's really brought up
13 the awareness of the sea turtles and shrimp issue
14 around the United States.
15 In particular, we have a scientist's
16 letter that has been circulated, which I will leave a
17 copy of, which has an endorsement of more than 250
18 scientists around the world who support a closure to
19 protect the Kemp's Ridley sea turtle. Among those are
20 Sylvia Earl from National Geographic, David Owens, and
21 also Rene Marquez, who is the head sea turtle expert at
22 Rancho Nuevo, Mexico.
23 We also had support from the top
24 newspapers around Texas. You've probably seen the
25 editorials in the Houston Chronicle, the Austin
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1 American Statesman, the Galveston Daily News, and other
2 papers, in the favor of the proposed southern closure
3 and the other measures. So the support is there.
4 People are really there with you.
5 And the Endangered Species Coalition,
6 based out of D.C., has just sent us a letter
7 encouraging you to adopt these measures, and this is an
8 organization made up of 425 groups around the United
9 States. And all these groups are going to continue
10 their efforts.
11 Whatever happens today, we want to work
12 with you in the future to improve the protection of the
13 sea turtles and the coastal ecosystem. So I am sure we
14 will all be hearing from each other in the future.
15 And I wanted to end on a positive note.
16 Everyone wanted me to be extremely positive today, and
17 I wanted to bring each of you a piece of artwork from
18 some of the children around the United States who have
19 submitted art to our art contest in favor of protecting
20 the Kemp's Ridley sea turtle in a marine reserve, and I
21 have one for each of you. Thank you very much.
22 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, Ms. Shore.
23 Terry Ricks --
24 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Mr. Chairman?
25 CHAIRMAN BASS: I'm sorry. Yes, sir?
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1 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: I'd like to make a
2 comment to Ms. Shore while she's still in front of the
3 Commission.
4 CHAIRMAN BASS: Please.
5 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: I was -- Ms.
6 Shore, I wanted to tell you that I was very
7 disappointed yesterday to read the press release that
8 you handed out and to see the advertisement, the
9 full-page advertisement, that was run in the New York
10 Times. The language of the press release, especially,
11 was inflammatory and highly political, and I just feel
12 that it's way out of the line and certainly not in the
13 mood and sense that we all ought to be trying to
14 approach goals here that we all want to see
15 accomplished, and this is certainly not the way to do
16 it. And I feel compelled to comment on the tone and
17 content of those two items.
18 MS. SHORE: Well, I'm sorry that you
19 feel that way, Commissioner. Unfortunately, as we all
20 know, the process has become quite politicized, and we
21 took steps that we felt would be appropriate at the
22 time, and I'm sorry you feel that way.
23 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Mr. Chairman?
24 CHAIRMAN BASS: Yes, ma'am.
25 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: I'd just like to
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1 say that I have not sensed, from the standpoint of
2 being a member of the Commission, that it is a
3 politicized issue. It certainly appeared that way in
4 the documents that Commissioner Angelo relates to, but
5 I have not had any approaches that I would have
6 characterized as political approaches. I have gotten
7 an enormous number of emails; I have gotten an enormous
8 number of letters, and I have looked at all of those,
9 but I have not regarded those as political. And I have
10 not gotten contacts from people in a political context,
11 and so I have to take issue with your response to
12 Commissioner Angelo.
13 MS. SHORE: Well, we certainly have
14 gotten emails and letters from people all over the
15 county, and part of our approach has been, over the
16 last two years, is to send letters to Governor Bush and
17 ask him to intervene on behalf of the endangered sea
18 turtles. So that's basically what the ad said, was we
19 asked Governor Bush to please support a closure on
20 marine reserve. So he is the governor of this state,
21 so that seemed an appropriate step to take.
22 COMMISSIONER HENRY: Mr. Chairman, I
23 think it's important for all of us to come to grips
24 with the depths of our responsibilities. On several
25 occasions, several speakers have mentioned, not only
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1 our direction, our interference from the governor, our
2 other political matters and all, and I would hope that
3 those that appear before us would take into
4 consideration the oath that we took with regard to
5 serving the people of this state, and it says nothing
6 about, nor has there been an indication of, any
7 political concerns or direction from the governor, the
8 senators, the representatives, or any other unit.
9 We are asked to act, you know, in the
10 interest of the people of this state, in line with the
11 mission of the department, and I think my colleagues
12 and I are totally dedicated to that end. So when we
13 see these kinds of things, naturally it concerns us
14 because it suggests to the general public that we are
15 amiss in our duties if we are considering these things
16 other than comments from the general public, and I'd
17 like to assure you and other members that such is the
18 case, that although we are happy to receive comments,
19 emails, letters, et cetera, from the general public,
20 that we are bound to consider all of the interests of
21 the citizens of this state and act with regard to what
22 we believe is in the best interest of the citizenry and
23 the state, without regard to political or other
24 considerations.
25 So I would hope that you would carry
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1 that back to those organizations and entities that
2 would believe or suggest otherwise. And I thank you
3 for appearing.
4 MS. SHORE: Thank you very much.
5 CHAIRMAN BASS: Further comments at this
6 time? Thank you.
7 Terry Ricks, I believe, is up next.
8 And, James Davenport, if you'd be prepared to speak
9 after Mr. Ricks.
10 MR. RICKS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman,
11 commissioners. My name is Terry Ricks. I represent
12 Texas Seafood Producers Association out of Rockport and
13 Arkansas Pass. Mainly an inshore fishery and bay
14 fishermen is what we represent, and at this present
15 time, we would like y'all to consider holding back on
16 these proposals and stuff until a further study can be
17 done with a little more, I guess we'd call it,
18 information or -- because we got so much controversial
19 talk going on between one side and the other side as to
20 whether we do have a biological problem or whether it's
21 a political problem or what it is. And everything I've
22 seen yesterday shows that we're really -- you know,
23 there may be a red flag that's been sent up, through
24 Parks and Wildlife, may have tagged it or red flagged
25 there. It could happen, but it hasn't happened yet,
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1 and so the proposals that are out right now, you're
2 going to affect the livelihood of a lot of people, and
3 you're going to redirect a lot of effort into other
4 portions of the bay that doesn't need to be. And until
5 we see that we actually need this type of rules and
6 regulations, through a lot lengthier process, I
7 believe, with a lot more input from a lot of different
8 individuals than what we have had.
9 That's all we'd like you to do is just
10 basically put a hold onto it until we can all get it
11 together and all come to a -- you know, it's like the
12 lady said: We're not going to get 100 percent
13 agreement or consensus, but we should have a lot better
14 than what we have right now. And I thank y'all for
15 listening to our opinion.
16 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, Mr. Ricks.
17 James Davenport.
18 MR. DAVENPORT: Mr. Chairman, ladies and
19 gentlemen of the Commission, I had it all wrote down
20 here, but I think this man that was just up here a
21 while ago must have been in my hotel room last night
22 because he covered what I wrote down so -- besides
23 that, I think he presented it better than I do. I'm
24 like other people; I'm not a very good speaker.
25 I was a stakeholder in the meetings at
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1 Lake Jackson. I do appreciate being invited. Look
2 forward to working with Parks and Wildlife again, and I
3 do believe that we can work together.
4 So now that I got all this out, I would
5 like to tell you it's like when I got cut off here
6 yesterday. I would like -- It's easy to point the
7 finger at somebody; that's where I got cut off.
8 Everybody does wrong, but when -- we're
9 tired of every time something goes wrong in our bays,
10 that it seems like it always comes back we're doing
11 this. "You're killing this, you're doing this, you're
12 killing --
13 It's not all us, ladies and gentlemen,
14 Mr. Chairman. There's several other things. We got
15 pollution; we got fresh -- water is a big issue. Water
16 is a big issue, and we respect the water. It's going
17 to be -- It's going to get worse, because people are
18 going to need water; we understand that, but so do our
19 sanctuaries. But we're working on this. We're a
20 working industry. Y'all are making us work better. I
21 thank y'all for that. We're striving. We're striving
22 to do better. We really are. You can come down and
23 look at us. I mean, we're getting up to date. Used
24 to, we used to be laid back; we're not laid back
25 anymore. We take things serious, because it is our
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1 industry. We love it, we're proud of it.
2 There's -- You got to admit we're
3 restricted bay shrimper. We got six months out of the
4 year to fish. In the spring season, we get to fish two
5 months, restricted with one 32-foot net. We got to
6 make a living for our families. We got children. We
7 like -- I'm sending my children to college. I got one
8 more at home, senior this year; she's going to college
9 at Mary Baylor. It's not cheap. I know y'all know
10 that. But you know that in the fall season, we're
11 restricted with one big net, you know, for four months,
12 but we still -- we still manage to do it, with all
13 these restrictions.
14 We got turtle excluders. Now you want
15 to get us a bycatch excluder, you know? I mean, we'll
16 buy it. We got the turtle excluder. They cost us
17 money.
18 All this stuff on graphs, it looks like
19 it works good. That's good. You want to get out in
20 real reality, get it in real life, get out in the bays
21 where we drag? We got all kinds of trouble. We got
22 oyster grass, got turtle grass, we got cannonballs, we
23 got crab traps, we got logs. All this plugs up, we
24 lose. We lose our whole catch. And you lose one -- in
25 the spring season, you got eight hours to work; you're
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1 lucky if you get five or six by the time you get your
2 grass out, your crab traps, or anything else. So, you
3 see, we are restricted. We don't need any more
4 restriction.
5 And I would like to touch once more on
6 increasing our license for 600,000 --
7 MR. SANSOM: Thank you, Mr. Davenport.
8 If you could go ahead and make a concluding statement.
9 MR. DAVENPORT: Six-hundred thousand
10 dollars annually? As I told you yesterday, the
11 government has already spent over $360 million for the
12 buy-back program. To me, ladies and gentlemen of the
13 Commission, that is a lot of money. That beats
14 $600,000 annually. Thank you.
15 CHAIRMAN BASS: Excuse me, sir. Did you
16 say 360 million?
17 MR. DAVENPORT: Pardon?
18 CHAIRMAN BASS: Did you say that we had
19 spent 360 million in the buy-back program?
20 MR. DAVENPORT: No, sir, I -- No, sir,
21 the federal government.
22 CHAIRMAN BASS: Federal government,
23 okay.
24 MR. DAVENPORT: Yes, sir.
25 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you.
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1 MR. DAVENPORT: I read that to y'all
2 yesterday.
3 CHAIRMAN BASS: Okay. I thought I was
4 missing some expenditures or half the department.
5 Going to talk to our finance Chairman.
6 Thank you, sir.
7 Pam Baker, if you could come next. And,
8 Jeff Noel, if you'd be prepared to speak after Ms.
9 Baker.
10 MS. BAKER: Thank you, Chairman and
11 members of the Commission. My name is Pam Baker. I
12 work with Group Environmental Defense. We have about
13 12,000 members in Texas. We work to find economic
14 solutions to environmental problems.
15 I gave my prepared statement yesterday,
16 so I'll just give a few brief comments today, and I'll
17 give my prepared statement after I finish.
18 The signs that Parks and Wildlife
19 scientists have documented in the shrimp fishery:
20 Growth overfishing, declining catch-per-unit effort,
21 severe overcapitalization, these are classic signs
22 leading to the most severe type of overfishing, and
23 that's recruitment overfishing. This has happened in
24 all types of fisheries all over the world again and
25 again. Shrimp is one example; cod, orange roughy,
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1 snapper. The list goes on and on.
2 Parks and Wildlife is doing the right
3 thing for this industry and for the environment upon
4 which it and all of us depend upon by taking action
5 before we get to that point.
6 Another point I want to make: Bycatch is
7 important. Crabs that are part of the shrimp bycatch
8 support another important fishery in this state.
9 Flounder are very popular for sport fishermen and for
10 commercial fishermen, and turtles are helping to build
11 a fledgling nature tourism industry in Corpus Christi
12 and south Texas.
13 We are due today to take steps to
14 preserve the shrimp stocks and our marine environment.
15 We also urge the Department and the Commission to begin
16 thinking about ways to alter the incentive that drives
17 shrimpers to fish as intensively as possible before
18 someone else catches all the available shrimp. And as
19 I've said before, we recommend management under an
20 individual transferrable quota type of program. Our
21 organization is ready and willing to work with the
22 Department and the Commission and the shrimp industry
23 to find solutions to these problems. Thank you.
24 I also have comments received from Gulf
25 Restoration Network, speaking in support of the
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1 regulations, and I will turn those comments in as well.
2 Thank you.
3 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, Ms. Baker.
4 Jeff Noel. And, Robert McFarlane, if
5 you'd be prepared to speak next.
6 MR. NOEL: Mr. Chairman and other
7 members of the Commission, I'm just here to say I'm in
8 support of the two-net law. I believe that it is a
9 fair indiscriminatory way of bringing about a
10 management for our shrimp fishery. I believe it is a
11 key ingredient to bringing about management, because I
12 think there is -- as Mr. Price pointed out and others
13 have, there is just too much effort going on in the
14 near-shore Gulf beaches in our Texas waters. And I
15 also believe that it's fair because it just coincides
16 with what we already have in our Texas bays, which is
17 net limitation, and I think it just levels the playing
18 field and will provide the types of conservation that
19 we need in our industry, and that if you don't do this,
20 we're going to be looking at each other a couple of
21 years from now or whatever, and wondering, well, what
22 are we going to do then?
23 So -- And I also would like to say that
24 the Parks and Wildlife certainly have been very
25 helpful. I would like to commend them very highly, and
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1 in particular, Art Morris from the Corpus Christi
2 division. He was extremely helpful. And also to all
3 the Commissioners here. It's a very important decision
4 that you're about to make, and believe me, that two-net
5 law, I think, will help. I mean, whether it's the
6 complete answer or not, I'm not sure, but I really am
7 in favor of it. Thank you very much.
8 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you for your
9 comments, Mr. Noel.
10 Robert McFarlane. And, Pete Aparicio,
11 if you'd be prepared to speak after Mr. McFarlane.
12 MR. McFARLANE: Good morning, ladies and
13 gentlemen. I am Robert McFarlane, and you are now well
14 aware that for every expert, there is an equal and
15 opposite expert.
16 I would note that there has been no
17 testimony presented to you that has demonstrated an
18 immediate need for action. This is not an urgent
19 issue. You have had lots of evidence that it has been
20 too rushed. We need to slow down and get this thought
21 out and settle some of the conflict between it.
22 There is, as you have seen, no
23 scientific consensus. You have multiple definitions of
24 the same term being used, and you have enumerable
25 interpretations. Part of the reason there is no
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1 scientific consensus is that your department staff have
2 rebuffed all efforts at scientific interchange, and I
3 would urge you to issue a direct order to your
4 department staff to develop scientific consensus.
5 Let us -- There is an opportunity to
6 come together and agree upon what we can agree on, and
7 identify those items that we cannot agree on. That has
8 not been done yet.
9 I would also note that growth
10 overfishing is basically an economic issue. What you
11 will be doing if you adopt these proposed regulatory
12 changes is transferring income from the bay shrimp
13 fishermen to the Gulf shrimp fishermen. When we're
14 talking about increasing the money, you're taking it
15 out of one pocket and putting it into another pocket.
16 That's not necessarily an increase, and some of the bay
17 shrimpers will probably fail.
18 The real threat of recruitment
19 overfishing is from the unlimited entry of shrimpers
20 into the Gulf of Mexico Shrimp Fishery. Nothing that
21 you are going to do or can do is going to change that,
22 so that all -- you must ask the questions, "Are these
23 regulations that you're going to pass really going to
24 have an impact?"
25 What we need to do is redirect our
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1 efforts to say, "How can we take our limited entry
2 program in Texas bays and extend it into the Gulf of
3 Mexico?" That's the fishery stock that's being
4 threatened. So thank you very much.
5 CHAIRMAN BASS: Pete Aparicio. And, C.
6 L. Standley, if you'd be prepared to speak after Mr.
7 Aparicio.
8 MR. APARICIO: Thank you, Mr. Chairman
9 and members of the Commission. I'm Pete Aparicio, live
10 in Victoria, Texas. I'm in the commercial shrimp
11 fishery. I'm also the chairman of the Gulf of Mexico
12 Fishery Management Council, Shrimp Management
13 Committee, and in that respect, I'd like to say
14 something about the threat of, or the danger of,
15 reaching recruitment overfishing.
16 There's an insurance policy in place in
17 the shrimp management plan which says that the level of
18 the parent stocks must go below the minimum level for
19 two consecutive years before there is recruitment
20 overfishing. So that gives us a lead time, and I
21 assure you that action will be taken after -- if it
22 occurs the first year. It never has since we've been
23 keeping records.
24 Having said that, I think that I'd like
25 to speak to the fact that I think we're all here to
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1 come up with something that's to the benefit of all the
2 taxpayers and citizens of Texas, and I would remind the
3 Commission that in the last -- since we started pulling
4 TEDs, it has cost the industry, like, I think, $350
5 million, in the 10-year period, in lost revenues. And
6 that is money very well spent. In addition to that,
7 the contributions to the Rancho Nuevo project is also
8 money very well spent. But I want to point out that it
9 does take a lot of money. And it was well spent
10 because, in the beginning, we had less than 1,000
11 nests; now we have over 6,000. So, like I said, that
12 was cheap insurance to buy.
13 And I would like to also add that the
14 shrimp industry, the 600-million-dollar-a-year
15 industry, provides a lot of jobs; it's part of the big
16 tax revenue of the coastal counties in particular. So
17 I would ask that the proponents of the closure,
18 especially in south Texas, would also chip in, with
19 something other than good intentions, for the recovery
20 of the Kemp's Ridley, because the aims and the goals
21 are very, very good. They're high, high goals, and I
22 applaud them for it. But it's not fair for one
23 agency -- or one industry to bear the brunt.
24 It's also noteworthy that the Texas
25 shrimp industry, the true equal opportunity industry,
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1 is one in which at least 85 percent of the offshore
2 Gulf boat owners and/or crew members are
3 Hispanic-American or Asian-American, and that's the one
4 that, whether by design or coincidence, will be the
5 hardest hit by these changes.
6 And in closing, I would just urge the
7 commissioners to, when you decide to vote, when you
8 vote, to ask yourself if this is a fair situation or
9 not, and I thank you.
10 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, Mr. Aparicio.
11 C. L. Standley. And, Ronald Hornbeck,
12 if you'd be prepared to speak after Mr. Standley.
13 MR. STANDLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman
14 and members of the Commission. Thank you for this
15 opportunity to speak, and I reiterate what's been said
16 earlier, that you have a tremendous task, and I know
17 you've been overwhelmed by the sheer volume of
18 information.
19 I have -- had intended to talk about the
20 lack of involvement of the Shrimp Advisory Committee
21 and the seafood industry in the early formation of
22 these regulations, but, unfortunately, my comments
23 yesterday regarding the stranding levels were a result
24 of, I guess, exasperation over the constant slamming of
25 the shrimp industry as being the primary cause of
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1 strandings, and it's been battered around within
2 National Marine Fisheries and other agencies for the
3 last 10 to 12, to 15, years, probably, about the
4 strandings created by other fisheries. And that's been
5 well-known.
6 There appears to be two separate
7 stranding databases, so I'm told. One is kept in St.
8 Petersburg, Florida, which is the conventional
9 stranding level database; the other is in a Galveston
10 laboratory, which apparently keeps the recreational
11 fishery stranding data, and I'm -- although I don't
12 have it in hand, it can be obtained by -- through the
13 Galveston lab, from Dr. Roger Zimmerman.
14 But a report which I have seen and I
15 don't have at hand, and it's been confirmed by others
16 here that there were, in probably 1996-1997, a report
17 off Texas of some 192 strandings attributable to the
18 recreational fishery, and these are readily available.
19 So what I'm pointing out is that there are many causes
20 of strandings and so forth.
21 You have a tremendous responsibility,
22 and I want to thank you for the opportunity to speak.
23 I want to thank you for your patience in this matter.
24 I know it's been a very trying time for you as well as
25 for the rest of us. Thank you very much.
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1 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, Mr. Standley.
2 Ronald Hornbeck. And, Richard Moore, if
3 you'd be prepared to speak after Mr. Hornbeck.
4 MR. HORNBECK: Thank you very much. My
5 name is Ronnie Hornbeck. I'm from Port Bolivar, Texas.
6 I would like this Commission, if you would, please,
7 take in consideration a time frame to reconsider before
8 acting on these matters that's been brought forth to
9 you. We have not talked about weather conditions or
10 such things like red tide. We have a red tide that is
11 killing more seafood and ruining our system than you
12 can imagine. We have jellyfish. We're talking about a
13 new jellyfish that is coming in that's supposed to eat
14 everything. We have storms that we have not
15 experienced in a few years. All of these take away
16 from the effort of catching shrimp. When you don't use
17 it, you're going to lose it.
18 Texas has a natural resource. If we
19 bind down the people of the state of Texas of
20 harvesting, and the people of enjoying the fresh
21 seafood, and allowing this to go into the Gulf and go
22 to Mexico, which, that's where it ends up, mainly in
23 Mexico, and then be shipped back to us, I think this is
24 very unfair to the people of the state of Texas. And I
25 thank y'all for you-all's time, and I wish y'all would
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1 consider this as something that needs to be further
2 studied and further considered. Thank you.
3 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, sir.
4 Richard Moore. Phillip Lara, if you'd
5 be prepared to speak after Mr. Moore.
6 MR. MOORE: For the record, my name is
7 Richard Moore, and I represent PISCES.
8 Ms. Dinkins, to answer your question of
9 yesterday, 15 days of our season would amount to about
10 12 percent of our time to work. If we took that and
11 measured it with Parks and Wildlife's 12 percent of
12 their budget, it would be about $30 million. Our pay
13 is not quite that good. At that time of year, it
14 fluctuates. If we've had northerns, and the shrimp
15 have already left the bays, then, argumentatively,
16 that's not an important time of year. But the last few
17 years we've had, we've had no northerns, so we've had
18 quite a few shrimp left at that time, even though they
19 were smaller and not at the allowable count. But in
20 our infinite wisdom, years ago, Parks and Wildlife said
21 we will allow you to pull smaller webbing, remove the
22 count of shrimp at that time of year, because, in
23 reality, natural mortality, we're going to lose those
24 shrimp anyway. So we're going to allow you to catch
25 those shrimp so that someone will get use from it.
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1 Now, you understand, this year and every
2 year up until then, November the 1st, we went to an
3 inch and a half webbing; no count limit, because that
4 resource was going to be lost anyway. Remember, these
5 shrimp only live 15 months. Whether we catch them,
6 somebody else catches them, they're gone. It's an
7 annual renewable resource, whether we take advantage of
8 it, exploit it, whatever you want to call it. That's
9 all I want to say about that.
10 I want to talk about bycatch. General
11 bycatch is dominated by several species: Atlantic
12 croaker, Gulf manhayden, sand sea trout, spot, bay
13 anchovy, hard-head catfish, account for the majority of
14 the bycatch in terms of numbers and biomass.
15 Special interest fish, such as Southern
16 flounder, red drum, spotted sea trout, were taken
17 infrequently in trawls. That means we don't catch that
18 many. These are studies done by the National Marine
19 Fisheries, two different studies; there's been three
20 studies done all together.
21 The effects of reducing or eliminating
22 trawl bycatch of shrimp predator/prey relationship is
23 not completely quantified. Utilizing a model technique
24 to estimate that reducing discards in the shrimp
25 fishery by 50 percent would decrease shrimp stocks by
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1 25 percent. The model showed (inaudible) is through
2 re-assimilation of bycatch and/or nutrients into the
3 shrimp population. In Galveston Bay, predation by
4 estuary-dependent finfish is a primary cause of
5 mortality in juvenile shrimp in nursery areas.
6 Predators of juvenile shrimp in nursery areas include
7 Southern flounder --
8 MR. SANSOM: Thank you, Mr. Moore.
9 MR. MOORE: -- spotted sea trout, red
10 drum -- Thank you, Andy.
11 MR. SANSOM: Thank you.
12 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, Mr. Moore.
13 Phillip Lara. And, Brian Sybert, if
14 you'd be prepared to speak after Mr. Lara.
15 MR. LARA: Thank you, Mr. Bass.
16 Limited entry is working -- Pardon me.
17 Contrary to what Texas Parks and
18 Wildlife would like the public to believe, limited
19 entry is alive and working. Limited entry was
20 established to limit the license and overcapitalization
21 of in-shore shrimp fisheries. Limited entry was a
22 vehicle to help the in-shore shrimp fisheries prevent
23 any further regulations through populations of means,
24 methods, time restrictions, area restrictions, and bag
25 and size limits.
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1 In 1994, the Texas Parks and Wildlife
2 proposed regulations for the problem of overfishing
3 with bycatch issues attached. The new proposals and
4 regulations contain radical changes in net size for
5 trawls, more time restrictions, more area closures.
6 Texas Parks and Wildlife thought that the best fix for
7 the settlement of problems was to eliminate -- were a
8 limited entry program with a viaduct provision for the
9 current license.
10 Texas Parks and Wildlife bargained that
11 the radical change would disappear if the industry
12 coauthored the limited entry program. The industry
13 worked hard for seven months to create a working viable
14 plan.
15 The senate Bill 750 was presented to the
16 1995 Legislature, passed the House and Senate, and was
17 signed by Governor George Bush in June of 1995. We
18 have limited entry.
19 In 1999, the legislature reviewed and
20 signed for their program to continue with no
21 resistance.
22 Limited entry does its job better than
23 the Texas Parks and Wildlife is willing to admit.
24 Limited entry kept residential bay shrimp and bait
25 shrimp road licenses in 1995. In 1995, the licenses
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1 that were sold were 1,841 for the bay, and the bait was
2 1,786. In 1999, 1,417 were sold for the bay, and for
3 the bait, 1,336. This means that 424 less bay shrimp
4 and 423 less bait shrimp licenses were sold. This is,
5 what, 847 less licenses since the limted entry program
6 began?
7 Texas Parks and Wildlife have bought 477
8 licenses back through mandated buyback programs, not
9 including 370 that were lost and not accounted for.
10 The license reduction represents reduced
11 effort and reduced catch and reduced bycatch. The
12 Texas Parks and Wildlife is asking, and got, a
13 three-dollar increase in the salt water fishing stamps
14 for the buyback program, plus an increase in our
15 license fees to help out on the buyback program. This
16 is not necessary because limited entry program has a
17 funding provision for the buyback program.
18 Bottom line, Texas Parks and Wildlife
19 need to table and restricted for proposal shrimp
20 regulation changes.
21 The proposed changes submitted in April
22 of 2000 are contradictory to the limited entry program.
23 This program --
24 MR. SANSOM: Mr. Lara, if you could
25 conclude your remarks.
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1 MR. LARA: -- was working and valuable
2 limited entry works.
3 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, Mr. Lara.
4 Brian Sybert. And, Ken Kramer, if you'd
5 be prepared to speak after Mr. Sybert, please.
6 MR. SYBERT: Mr. Chairman, members of
7 the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to speak,
8 and I'd also like to thank you for the work that you do
9 and for how closely you all have had to follow this
10 issue.
11 It's unfortunate that there are those,
12 on both sides of this issue, that have used
13 inflammatory -- basically inflammatory political
14 threats to try to get their way when there is an
15 adequate process provided by the staff at Texas Parks
16 and Wildlife. That process included 30 meetings along
17 the coast for the shrimp industry. Those who could
18 participate did; those who didn't want to and wanted to
19 continue to oppose regulations chose not to
20 participate. Parks and Wildlife was very open. Parks
21 and Wildlife met with the environmental community, the
22 recreational sports fishing community. We had three
23 days of shrimp working group meetings in Lake Jackson,
24 and then a series of eight public hearings along the
25 coast. The process was adequate, and Parks and
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1 Wildlife staff did the right thing.
2 In the last two days now, we have heard
3 from the real experts. We've heard from Dr. Nance,
4 Dr. Zimmerman; today, Dr. Caillouet, and then, also,
5 yesterday, Dr. Gracia and Dr. Shaver. These are the
6 true experts in the field of shrimp fishery and sea
7 turtles. I would ask that you please focus on their
8 comments, their statements, and also recognize that the
9 Parks and Wildlife staff did the right thing in terms
10 of proposing these regulations, and that the
11 regulations that were proposed, that we devised as the
12 shrimp working group as of our last meeting, are the
13 regulations that should be voted in today. Those are
14 the regulations that include the year-round five
15 nautical mile closure on the southern portion of the
16 Texas coast.
17 I would definitely urge you to move
18 forward and do that. There's no need to delay this
19 process. There's been ample opportunity for public
20 support, and, as I said yesterday, Parks and Wildlife
21 has the two critical elements that it needs to
22 implement these regulations. Those critical elements
23 being, one, the science. The science of the experts
24 from the National Marine Fisheries Service and the
25 science of the Parks and Wildlife biologists, and the
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1 public support of the citizens of our state, which, out
2 of all the comments received, 96 percent were in favor
3 of the proposed regulations. And not the regulations
4 we have now, but the stronger version of the
5 regulations.
6 The science is there, the citizens'
7 support is there. Let's do it. Let's implement these,
8 do it right the first time around. Thank you for the
9 opportunity to speak.
10 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you.
11 Ken Kramer. Julius Collins, if you'd be
12 prepared to speak after Mr. Kramer.
13 MR. KRAMER: Mr. Chairman and members of
14 the Commission, for the record, my name is Ken Kramer.
15 I'm the state director for the Sierra Club, and I'm not
16 going to reiterate the points that Brian has made, but
17 I want to make a couple of very emphatic statements
18 today.
19 There have been some allegations made by
20 people within the environmental movement that this
21 process might be dictated by politics from the
22 governor's office and politics that were the result of
23 presidential campaigning. I think all of you know that
24 I have not been reticent to criticize the governor's
25 environmental policies because, in many ways, I do
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1 disagree with them. But I want to state emphatically,
2 for the record, that it's not the Sierra Club's
3 viewpoint that this process is being dictated or
4 pressured, in any way, by the governor's office, and,
5 in fact, we have resisted any effort, both, outside our
6 organization and even inside our organization, at the
7 national level, to interject politics into this
8 process.
9 We have tried to work within the process
10 because we feel that your staff has cooperated in a
11 professional manner with all the people involved on
12 this issue, that they have based their recommendations
13 on sound science, that they have attempted to include
14 the viewpoints of everyone, and while they may be
15 getting a lot of flack from people on all sides, that
16 they are trying to do the right thing.
17 We also believe that you, as individual
18 commissioners, and as a Commission as a whole, are
19 attempting to do the right thing. And that's why we've
20 been willing to try to keep politics out of this
21 process.
22 In that regard, I want to urge you also
23 to resist any pressure coming from members of the
24 legislature to try to impose their viewpoints into a
25 process that I think has been working pretty well. We
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1 stand ready to support you, as indeed the public does,
2 in your efforts to take strong stands to protect the
3 shrimp industry and to protect sea turtles. Let's face
4 it. We're never going to have a consensus with the
5 shrimp industry in this state about what the shrimp
6 management program of Texas Parks and Wildlife ought to
7 be. There are too many conflicting interests within
8 the shrimping community. And that's why we would urge
9 you to take the steps necessary to protect the public
10 resources: The shrimp, the sea turtles, the other forms
11 of marine species off our coastal waters, without
12 trying to essentially reach something that's the lowest
13 common denominator, that might buy you the most support
14 from the shrimp industry. I think that are you on a
15 path to do that. I would urge you to go back and
16 reconsider and adopt the year-around five nautical mile
17 closure off the Texas southern coast. That already is
18 a compromise. We wanted more, but we recognize the
19 need to compromise in this process, and we think that's
20 a legitimate step forward.
21 So please consider that, and please
22 consider that this is a historic opportunity for you to
23 move forward to protect our resources. Thank you very
24 much.
25 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, Mr. Kramer.
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1 Julius Collins. And if Richard Morrison
2 would be prepared to speak after Mr. Collins.
3 MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman
4 and members of the Commission. My name is Julius
5 Collins, and I am the president of Texas Shrimp
6 Association.
7 I stand on what I said yesterday. TSA
8 wants status quo, no changes.
9 You heard a lot of people, special --
10 was named by name yesterday by someone that said that
11 you cannot change Julius Collins. He will not change.
12 We did offer Texas Parks and Wildlife some changes. We
13 offered them another 15 days to close the whole Gulf of
14 Mexico, which is 60,000 square miles, for 15 days.
15 That was refused for this -- what we have now.
16 The lower Texas coast is -- looks like
17 that's the big issue here, and it looks like it's not
18 quite a shrimp issue; it looks like it's more a turtle
19 issue that we have down there. We have people in the
20 turtle that wants to conserve and preserve the turtle.
21 I, for one, don't want to see the turtle -- the demise
22 of the turtle. But to what extent?
23 They are claiming that there's a lot of
24 stranding on the Texas coast, but they're not saying
25 anything about more strandings on Florida coast than
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1 there is in Texas, more strandings in Georgia than is
2 in Texas, or in North Carolina than there is in Texas.
3 And there is even the Kemp's Ridley.
4 Over 200 strandings of Kemp's Ridley, from Virginia to
5 Maine, more than there is in Texas. But they're
6 strandings all over. So why pick on the Southern coast
7 of Texas? They had six turtles that nested there last
8 year. They want another nesting area. Why do it
9 there? If you want to do it, do it other places where
10 there has more turtle stranding and nesting? After the
11 season opened, it was said there was less stranding
12 than when the season was closed.
13 We, in TSA -- you have, we'd like to
14 have all groups meet together and come up with a
15 solution, but it looks like it's an environmental issue
16 and not a shrimp issue The shrimp, from what I can
17 understand, with all the evidence that was put on, is
18 healthy now, and I hope it continues the health.
19 You have quite a task in front of you,
20 gentlemen and ladies. I know your feeling. You have
21 either to pick one side or the other. I'm saying one
22 side with -- the environmental side, the shrimp side,
23 and that's what it boils down to.
24 Good luck to you, and I hope you make
25 the right decision. Thank you.
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1 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Thank you,
2 Mr. Collins.
3 Richard Morrison, and next up will be
4 Thomas Lambright.
5 MR. MORRISON: Thank you,
6 Ms. Vice-Chairman, Commissioners. My name is Richard
7 Morrison, and I'm speaking here on behalf of the
8 Calhoun County Shrimpers.
9 My comments today are regarding a legal
10 issue, and that issue is a regulatory impacts analysis,
11 that the Calhoun County Shrimpers was not included
12 within the draft proposed regulations.
13 It says, in the Administrative
14 Procedures Act that, "The draft impact analysis, at a
15 minimum, must identify the costs that the agency
16 anticipates state agencies, local governments, the
17 public, and the regulated community will experience
18 after implementation of the rule."
19 We believe that was not done. We heard
20 testimony yesterday about potential devastating effects
21 on the local economies and the local tax basis if these
22 proposed rules are enacted because of the potential for
23 the bay shrimpers, mini bay shrimpers, to lose their
24 businesses.
25 Additionally, "Regulatory impacts
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1 analysis must describe the benefits and costs
2 anticipated from implementation of the rule."
3 These type costs are similar -- or these
4 type analyses are similar to the analyses that were
5 done by Dr. Nance on the allocation issue in the study
6 that I told you about yesterday.
7 Third is -- Well, Number 4 is, "Describe
8 reasonable alternative methods for achieving the
9 purpose of the rule," which could be any alternatives.
10 One alternative is what the Calhoun County Shrimpers
11 are proposing, which is keep the current regulations as
12 they are on the newly-funded buy-back program in place
13 because they appear, according to Dr. Nance, to be
14 working.
15 The last one is, "Provide an explanation
16 of whether the rule specifies a single method of
17 compliance or other methods of compliance," and that
18 includes voluntary compliance.
19 We already know that Governor Bush has
20 asked the industries that are refineries to voluntarily
21 comply and voluntarily get new permits. We heard
22 yesterday, from Mr. Lambright, that he has a BRD on his
23 boat, and that when the bycatch gets too heavy -- he
24 only wants to catch shrimp -- he'll voluntarily put
25 that on. This was not looked at.
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1 We would ask that the regulations,
2 before you-all adopt them, that they be postponed until
3 a regulatory impacts analysis can be completed and the
4 public have an opportunity to comment on such an
5 analysis. Thank you.
6 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Thank you,
7 Mr. Morrison.
8 Thomas Lambright and then Deyaun
9 Boudreaux.
10 MR. LAMBRIGHT: Thank you, Madam
11 Chairman. My name is Thomas Lambright. I'm a
12 commercial bay and gulf shrimper from Port O'Connor.
13 I'm here representing the Calhoun County Shrimpers.
14 Yesterday I was touching on the bycatch
15 reduction device, if y'all remember.
16 The one other thing I would like to say
17 is I concur with just about everything that everybody
18 has said. This comes down to a turtle issue or
19 environmental issue or shrimp issue or whatever, you
20 know, and I'm trying to figure out just exactly which
21 is the most important. Is it the livelihoods of the
22 people of the state of Texas and the economy of the
23 state of Texas, or is it turtles? I have nothing
24 against turtles. I have nothing against spotted owls.
25 I'm for saving every one of them. But I think we're
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1 doing -- the industry is doing its part. I really
2 believe this. We've done our part. We've -- You know,
3 we've worked with staff and tried to come up with these
4 regulations and everything, and I encourage the
5 Commission -- You got a tough job. I encourage the
6 Commission to postpone these regulations and everything
7 and let's go back and let's sit down and let's all cool
8 off, calm down, and try to come up with some solution
9 to the problem.
10 And you asked the question, Ms. Dinkins,
11 of somebody yesterday, about how much economic loss the
12 15 days would be on the fall season; I think that was
13 your question.
14 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: It was a general
15 question about economic loss.
16 MR. LAMBRIGHT: Okay. With climatic
17 changes and everything and -- We've had warm winters
18 and everything, and the shrimp don't leave the bay
19 sometime until late. Just a rough estimate, if you
20 have small shrimp at the end of the year, and they grow
21 up late, and at the end of the -- I mean, you have
22 small shrimp at the first of the year, and they grow up
23 late; they stay in the bay; the fresh water is right;
24 everything is right for them. Just figure out if
25 you -- for 15 days, if the catch per unit was 20 pounds
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1 an hour, at $2 and a half a pound, per boat, per hour,
2 and you work 10 hours a day, it's an approximate loss
3 of about $7500 in 15 days to one boat. I mean, that's
4 just a -- throwing some figures up in the air. But
5 there is a loss here. And with the climatic changes
6 that we got and everything, there's a lot of times when
7 we work right up to the last day.
8 I know the year of the flood, we needed
9 rain early. All our shrimp were small in the bay, you
10 know, and we didn't have any shrimp to work on. And in
11 November, here they come. And we worked up until the
12 last day of the season. As a matter of fact, I had
13 over a thousand dollars worth of shrimp the last day,
14 August the 15th. So, you know, we -- there's potential
15 loss to the industry there.
16 And one thing that hadn't been touched
17 on -- I probably just run out of time; I see the little
18 yellow light.
19 One thing that hadn't been touched on is
20 that we, from the time -- on our spring season, from 2
21 o'clock in the evening until 30 minutes before sunrise
22 the next morning, these shrimp have got a chance to
23 escape. These shrimp have got a chance to go to the
24 Gulf. These shrimp have got a chance to do anything
25 they want to.
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1 Same way in the fall season. We put
2 over at 30 minutes before sunrise --
3 MR. SANSOM: Please complete your
4 remarks, Mr. Lambright. Thank you, Mr. Lambright --
5 MR. LAMBRIGHT: -- and we can drag until
6 30 minutes after sunset. And these shrimp, from that
7 time until that time the next morning, has got a chance
8 to escape so...
9 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Thank you,
10 Mr. Lambright.
11 MR. LAMBRIGHT: Thank you.
12 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Mr. Boudreaux, and
13 next up will be Terri Curtis.
14 I'm sorry. It's Ms. Boudreaux?
15 MS. BOUDREAUX: That happens --
16 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: What is the first
17 name?
18 MS. BOUDREAUX: -- all the time.
19 My name is Deyaun Boudreaux and --
20 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: I apologize.
21 MS. BOUDREAUX: That's okay.
22 I work for Texas Shrimp Association. I
23 am environmental director, and I have been so employed
24 since 1991. I live in Cameron County, Port Isabel,
25 Texas.
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1 Before I went to work for Texas Shrimp
2 Association, I served 12 years on a school board. Most
3 of our property value was maritime related. Before
4 that, I was a teacher and a school administrator. So I
5 understand about where you're sitting; I understand
6 about what Dr. Sansom is doing; and I also understand
7 where the environmentalists and the fishermen are
8 sitting and standing, because you have to frame the
9 snapshot that you're looking at before you go into
10 rule-making.
11 I've had a little time, in the last two
12 days, to look at this, and I feel that we have reached
13 some type of a critical mass because maybe we should
14 have taken a couple of precautions to make sure that
15 our rule-making process would be successful.
16 First of all, in fisheries, people are
17 regulated. Fisheries are a special population with
18 special knowledge. They are the resource.
19 The seafood is the resource asset of the
20 ocean. It's not necessarily yours or mine; it belongs
21 to the ocean, but there is a special population of
22 people who historically have been food producers.
23 When you look at the way the ocean is
24 managed, you will find that it's work before play. You
25 will find that this was codified by President Ronald
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1 Reagan, in 1983, when he made the statement which put
2 into place our exclusive economic zone, and it said the
3 highest and best use of the American ocean is food for
4 man; the second highest and best use of the ocean is
5 transportation; and third highest and best use for the
6 ocean is for minerals. All of these things benefit all
7 of us.
8 Now, we are a fisheries populations
9 that's been regulated for hundreds of years, so we
10 respect regulation, but we also know that, apparently,
11 when we're looking at this, we are looking at issues
12 involving habitat and environment. And Dr. Sansom and
13 the people at TNRCC, all of these people know as well,
14 because any time there's going to be something that
15 hurts the habitat of the shrimp, we are there on our
16 own dollar.
17 The next thing is we are looking at
18 shrimp conservation.
19 MR. SANSOM: If you could make a
20 concluding statement.
21 MS. BOUDREAUX: We're already there.
22 And the last thing is endangered
23 species. I would love to have seen all groups who
24 impact the endangered in our coastal water included.
25 Let's go back to the table. Thank you.
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1 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Thank you,
2 Ms. Boudreaux.
3 Terri Curtis.
4 MS. CURTIS: Commissioners and staff,
5 thank you for this time today. My name is Terri
6 Curtis. I work for Campeche Seafood in Brownsville,
7 Texas. My entire family's income is directly related
8 to the shrimp industry.
9 Yesterday, standing before you, I heard
10 many people commending Texas Parks and Wildlife for a
11 job well done. I stand here today looking into the
12 future. I want to be able to say, "A job well done,
13 and thank you for not adopting these proposed
14 regulations. Thank you for being open-minded and
15 letting common sense prevail."
16 I want to say, "Thank you for taking the
17 time out to analyze the data that is in the controversy
18 and seeing the facts as they truly are.
19 "I want to thank you for understanding
20 that the shrimp industry is helping with the recovery
21 of the sea turtle, using their natural nesting grounds
22 in Mexico" -- I'm not used to speaking. I'm just a
23 little nervous, or cold.
24 Now, I wish I could thank the Texas
25 Parks and Wildlife staff for working with us during the
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1 18-month study. I wish we were truly invited to the 30
2 meetings that were held along the coast prior to April
3 2000. I also wish I could thank the staff for using
4 the shrimp advisory committee properly and allowing the
5 industry to take part in the process. I wish I could
6 thank you for giving us more than three minutes to plea
7 our case. I wish we had the opportunity to use visual
8 aids to plea our case as your invitees did. I wish I
9 could stand here today and thank staff for working with
10 us. For example, on June 9th of this year, I
11 telephoned a staff member, asking to reschedule the
12 day, or even time, of the June 29th comment period held
13 in Brownsville since it fell on our same day and same
14 hour of our annual religious event: The Blessing of the
15 Fleet. We were denied, and, unfortunately, many
16 industry members could not attend the public comment
17 meeting.
18 All of the negatives that I have
19 mentioned can clearly be dismissed, and the first steps
20 to regaining trust will be made when you vote against
21 these proposed rules.
22 Again, in closing, I stand here in the
23 future. I thank you for not adopting these shrimp
24 regulations and for seeing the truth and acting upon
25 only the truth, as this country should be recognized
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1 for its truth and nothing but the truth. Thank you.
2 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Thank you,
3 Ms. Curtis.
4 Next is Ray Allen, and then Ivo Goga.
5 MR. ALLEN: Thank you, Commissioner.
6 I'm Ray Allen, a director of Coastal Bend Bays and
7 Estuaries program in Corpus Christi.
8 We've heard a lot of discussion today
9 about delaying action. Let me tell you that in the
10 history of fisheries' collapse around the world, that
11 is a common argument, right up until the very death of
12 the industry itself, and I would encourage this group,
13 this Board, not to establish the imminent collapse of
14 the shrimp industry as the standard before we act.
15 It's -- Well, it's not surprising, but
16 it's disappointing that folks in that industry would
17 get up here and argue that we wait until we're faced
18 with imminent collapse.
19 Specifically, on the rules, I want to
20 encourage the Commission to go ahead and adopt those
21 rules.
22 Now, I would say, in the published
23 rules, there was a proposal to increase the mesh size
24 for bay shrimping, in various seasons, two or three
25 components there. I would ask this body to revisit
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1 that issue, and, if possible, adopt the original
2 recommendation to increase the mesh size as a way to
3 address the growth overfishing pressures we're seeing
4 in the industry. Thank you.
5 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Thank you,
6 Mr. Allen.
7 Ivo Goga, and next up is Wilma Anderson.
8 MR. GOGA: Thank you. Good afternoon,
9 Mr. Chairman, distinguished members of the Commission.
10 Thank you for letting me speak before this Commission
11 once again.
12 What I have below is just a chart to
13 kind of show you the life size -- the actual size of
14 the shrimp that we harvest. We have an extra large,
15 large, medium, small, there, to get kind of a visual
16 comparison while I speak on these issues.
17 My name is Ivo Goga. I spoke to you
18 yesterday. I'm based -- president of Campeche Seafood
19 Products in Brownsville.
20 I would like to address the statement
21 that an overall net gain should be realized by the
22 deferred harvest theory for the shrimp industry. I see
23 nothing but problems that would achieve a net gain for
24 an industry already working on a slim margin, as we
25 heard in testimony from Dr. Russ Mache yesterday.
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1 Any conservative new measures will cause
2 serious harm to the economic well-being of many in a
3 struggling shrimp industry, particularly in the
4 southern zone, as many in the northern zone as well.
5 I would like to itemize the problems
6 that I see with the southern zone proposals.
7 Number 1: The loss of catch due to
8 predation inside the zone, since there would be
9 unofficially a ban in place, not a fishery, weekly
10 mortality of shrimp is approximately 20 percent per
11 week.
12 Number 2: Higher costs due to less
13 efficiency in harvesting shrimp as it moves into deeper
14 water because it's less concentrated, less efficient to
15 harvest.
16 Number 3: Loss of resource due to
17 migration into Mexico. My good friend, Mr. Ramirez,
18 from Mexico would appreciate this one.
19 Number 4: Less affordable shrimp for
20 Texas consumers.
21 Number 5: Create major supply problems
22 for grocery chains and distributors due to the
23 tremendous dependence on medium and small shrimp
24 availability to achieve price points. And that's just
25 not in south Texas. That's all over the county.
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1 Number 6: Cause the shrimp market to
2 experience sooner market corrections, thus netting
3 lower prices ex-vessel.
4 Number 7: Liquidity problems due to
5 substantial inventory build of larger sizes in the
6 national inventory system that does not currently have
7 adequate market support.
8 When you factor all of these problems
9 into the equation, the overall impact of these measures
10 will not guarantee any net gain to the larger more
11 valuable shrimp theory.
12 We already have an effective 200-mile,
13 60-day closure in place. It sufficiently protects
14 juvenile shrimp in the southern zone, allowing it to
15 reach the proper mix of economic value for, both,
16 producer and the marketplace.
17 In closing, I would like to say many of
18 us count our blessings for the prosperous times we live
19 in, but the shrimp industry continues to struggle with
20 government overregulation, unwarranted negative
21 publicity, and high fuel prices that have drained our
22 industry of funding needed to adequately defend
23 ourselves.
24 Our industry is comprised of mostly
25 hard-working Anglo, Latino, and Vietnamese Americans.
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1 We are the backbone of a responsible industry that
2 provides a good wholesome food service that many enjoy.
3 However, we are very worried. We are very worried
4 about our future --
5 MR. SANSOM: Thank you for your remarks.
6 Thank you.
7 MR. GOGA: Okay. I have a conclusion?
8 Okay.
9 We're very worried about our future. We
10 feel like we've been treated like second-class citizens
11 by Texas Parks and Wildlife in the process. We need to
12 look at reforms that will bring common sense, peer
13 review, science, and greater respect for all
14 stakeholders in the regulatory process. Thank you.
15 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, sir.
16 Wilma Anderson. And, Jeff Vu, if you'd
17 be prepared to speak after Ms. Anderson.
18 MS. ANDERSON: Mr. Chairman, members of
19 the Commission, I'm Wilma Anderson, executive director
20 of the Texas Shrimp. I want to approach something a
21 little different that hasn't been touched on here
22 today.
23 I want to bring your attention to the
24 numbers presented yesterday by the department misleads
25 the number of people opposed to the shrimp regulations
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1 submitted in writing. I'm referring to the resolutions
2 submitted in writing that represents areas of large
3 populations and their concerns of the economic impact
4 they know will occur again from another stringent
5 regulation placed on the fishery.
6 The following resolutions I have in hand
7 today are referred to: City of Palacious;
8 Commissioner's Court Matagorda County; Rio Grande
9 Valley Partnership; Brownsville Navigation and Channel
10 Commission; Cameron County Commissioner Court; Board of
11 Directors Texas Pac Port Isabel/Laguna Madre.
12 In the department's record, there are
13 more resolutions and letters in opposition, from
14 cities, chambers, navigation, and school districts, and
15 those I referred to in -- that's on the file today in
16 your records.
17 I again stress the removal of emails,
18 internets, and faxes that has not been verified to
19 support or oppose these regulations.
20 I also would like to bring back,
21 Mr. Chairmam, members of the Commission, Governor Bush
22 states, "No child will be left behind." When family
23 income becomes suppressed and standards of living
24 decline, you will have a child left behind.
25 We recommend the status quo.
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1 CHAIRMAN BASS: Ms. Anderson.
2 Jeff Vu. And, Thuy Vu --
3 MR. VU: Oberve only
4 CHAIRMAN BASS: Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't
5 note that.
6 Jeff Vu. And Thuy Vu. And,
7 Mr. Gilleland, if you'd be prepared to speak after Ms.
8 Vu.
9 MS. VU: Thank you again, Mr. Chairman
10 and Commissioners for the opportunity to express our
11 concern about this proposed rule changes. I am Thuy
12 Vu, representing Vietnamese American Shrimpers
13 Association.
14 Although well iterate all good-faith
15 effort proposal at the regulation committee hearing
16 yesterday, we still disagree with the Texas Parks and
17 Wildlife assessment of the biological concern for the
18 shrimp and sea turtle resources.
19 We feel that the proposed regulation are
20 more of an allocation issue, not a biological or
21 economic issues, since the bay and the Gulf have not
22 been shown to need additional conservation. We feel
23 that this entire set of rules was developed based on
24 false premises of recruitment overfishing and was
25 subsequently justified utilizing inadequate landing
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1 data and hypothetical economic scenario which did not
2 consider even basic biological facts like natural
3 mortality, salinity levels, natural predators,
4 industrial pollution, et cetera.
5 Finally, ecological benefits, such a
6 reduction in bycatch, eliminating the detrimental
7 effects of trawling and increase survival of post-larva
8 and juvenile shrimp as a result of increasing the
9 closed nursery area, appears to be a foregone
10 conclusion rather than hypothesis to be proven.
11 We must also ask how the department will
12 determine and document any of the benefits that will
13 result from these proposed rule changes concerning the
14 tremendous variation in an annual production which we
15 have observed over the past 40 years? Perhaps, both,
16 the bay and the Gulf production in this critical year
17 should become the baseline for an evaluation by which
18 to measure the proposed economic benefits created by
19 this proposed rule changes.
20 In conclusion, we ask the Commission not
21 to adopt these proposed rule changes. This matter
22 needs more accurate data, additional expanded studies,
23 and an in-depth of the economic impact of the shrimp
24 fleet, shrimp processor, public consumer, and related
25 businesses. This economic impact will be far-reaching
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1 into the fishing industry, their family, and the
2 coastal community that depend on the fishing economy as
3 their main livelihood. We feel that pressures from
4 special interest groups have been the driving force of
5 this proposed regulation; however, we ask that before
6 adopting any proposed rules changes, the commissioners
7 conduct an in-depth review of the accuracy of the data
8 collected, the method used in the data collection, the
9 interpretation of the data, and the economic impact
10 which will result from the implementation of these
11 changes.
12 We thank you, in advance, for your time,
13 and to this attention would affect the livelihood of so
14 many families. Thank you.
15 MR. SANSOM: Thank you, Ms. Vu.
16 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, Ms. Vu.
17 Mr. Gilleland. And, Benny Gallaway, if
18 you'd be prepared to speak after Mr. Gilleland.
19 MR. GILLELAND: My name is Ellis
20 Gilleland. I'm speaking for Texas Animals, which is an
21 internet organization, animal rights organization.
22 I've given you a handout. First I want
23 to give you my bottom. My bottom line is I'm asking to
24 extend the nine-mile -- the -- limit the nine-mile, the
25 limit that you have now with five, now down to three.
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1 I'm asking you to make it nine, to make it equal with
2 what the state has under its jurisdiction, and,
3 consequently, what you have under your jurisdiction.
4 You can extend, whatever you do, out to nine miles.
5 The second thing is I'm asking you to
6 include all the federal TED and BRD specifications.
7 You've taken the federal TED specs and the BRD specs
8 and reduced and modified them to where they're not
9 equal or -- the thing there, the game warden people are
10 going to have a terrible time trying to resolve this
11 out on the water.
12 The third thing, third bottom line, is
13 to issue a turtle proclamation. You've issued a
14 proclamation for everything else; let's issue a
15 proclamation for the turtles.
16 I'd like to read you one paragraph out
17 of the Houston Chronicle, dated 4 June 2000, which
18 says, "Shrimp Battle is Starting to Heat Up." Quote,
19 "When the agency, in April, announced a package of
20 regulation proposals based on an 18-month study of
21 shrimping data and several meetings with members and
22 the shrimping industry, it immediately was attacked by
23 the shrimping industry. Over the past two months, the
24 agency rewrote the package, deleting the liberalization
25 about half the original rules," and it goes on to say,
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1 "But faced with the onslaught of protest from the
2 shrimping industry, TEXAS PARKS AND WILDLIFE COMMISSION
3 officials backed away from biological arguments," et
4 cetera, et cetera.
5 So what you're working on now is the
6 third version, ladies and gentlemen. The first version
7 of these rules were written before April. They were
8 reduced to five miles in July -- they were published in
9 the Texas Register in July; that's the second version.
10 And now the third version is now you're down to your
11 three-mile limit. So that's the reality.
12 The handout I've given you addresses the
13 Leatherback turtles. The Leatherback turtles are just
14 as important as the Kemp's Ridley, and you'll notice
15 that, on the second page, nine of the Leatherbacks were
16 stranded, found dead, on the -- on Padre Island in just
17 two months, April and May of this year.
18 The Leatherback provisions, if you
19 follow the federal specs rather than reworking and
20 reducing the federal specs for TED and BRD, you don't
21 put the game wardens in a bind. A game warden cannot
22 go out five miles, oh, something applies. Go out four
23 more miles, something else applies. Nine miles, and
24 they're deputized to enforce federal TED and BRD.
25 You're putting the game wardens --
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1 MR. SANSOM: Thank you, Mr. Gilleland.
2 MR. GILLELAND: -- in a three-way vise.
3 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, sir.
4 CHAIRMAN BASS: Benny Gallaway. And,
5 Muriel Tipps, if you'd be prepared to speak after
6 Mr. Gallaway, please.
7 MS. TIPPS: I'll pass.
8 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, ma'am.
9 MR. GALLAWAY: Mr. Chairman,
10 Commissioners, thank you again. We met yesterday, and
11 I'll continue from there.
12 We talked about where we are relative to
13 recruitment overfishing threshold yesterday, assuming
14 consensus on the data.
15 Today I'd like to talk about a study
16 that we did during the period 1994 to 1995 in which we
17 reached consensus of, both, the inshore and the
18 offshore components of the Texas Shrimp Fishery in
19 reducing head rope size in a near-shore zone that was
20 extended across the entire Texas coast, for 6 miles in
21 the south and up to 18 miles offshore near Sabine.
22 The head rope restriction was to be 100
23 feet. We reached consensus and have letters
24 documenting that all the parties agreed to that
25 management strategy. That component of that plan was
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1 rejected by an economic analysis from National Marine
2 Fisheries Service and Texas A & M University. Dr. John
3 Ward and Dr. Wade Griffin were the scientists who
4 conducted the economic analysis. They said, yes, that
5 will be a very effective plan in the short-term, in
6 terms of reducing effort. Their analysis indicated,
7 however, that that success would lead to conditions in
8 which a new fishery would develop and you had an effort
9 with a different character that would fill that void
10 and utilize that resource. Their analysis was that,
11 over the long-term, there would not be a reduction in
12 effort. In fact, it might even increase effort.
13 Perhaps I haven't seen the economic data
14 for this analysis, or perhaps that analysis was
15 incorrect. I haven't seen it. I would suggest, if you
16 haven't seen it, you might ask for that analysis as
17 well.
18 There has been a very real reduction in
19 catch-per-unit effort attributable to TEDs and bycatch
20 reduction devices. TEDs, for the one that is used in
21 the Western Gulf of Mexico or in Texas, has been about
22 16 percent reduction in CPUE. BRDs are about 9
23 percent, and shrimp CPUE. Collectively, that adds up
24 to about a 24 percent reduction, so there has been a
25 very real increase. So if you look at how high you can
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1 go, you have to consider that limitation on CPUE.
2 In addition to that, not only has 50
3 percent of the Wetland habitat been lost in the Western
4 Gulf of Mexico as reported by Texas Parks and Wildlife,
5 but for red snapper alone, there's been a 15 percent
6 reduction in carrying capacity of the offshore habitat.
7 For shrimp, due to hypoxic water conditions, there's a
8 so-called dead zone that you hear about in Louisiana,
9 about the size of the state of New Jersey. That
10 extends all the way over, in some yields, to Galveston
11 Bay, leading to a decline in carrying capacity.
12 So I see my time is about up. I will
13 mention that two members of the Turtle Expert Working
14 Group are here: Myself and Dr. Charles Caillouet. We
15 did look at strandings levels that would be necessary
16 before federal action was required, so, collectively,
17 we could answer those questions. Thank you.
18 CHAIRMAN BASS: Any questions?
19 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Well, I wonder,
20 since that question was asked earlier, if we shouldn't
21 ask the gentleman to go ahead and answer it.
22 CHAIRMAN BASS: Yes, please. Mr.
23 Gallaway?
24 MR. GALLAWAY: Let me bring
25 Dr. Caillouet because we're going to have to recall,
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1 and our collective memories might be better than one,
2 if that's acceptable to the Commission.
3 CHAIRMAN BASS: The earlier question by
4 Commissioner Idsal -- who unfortunately is away from
5 the podium at the moment -- was have there been any
6 estimates of what an acceptable or survivable amount of
7 incidental take would be that would still allow the
8 recovery to -- of the sea turtle?
9 MR. CAILLOUET: Actually, the Turtle
10 Expert Working Group was charged with determining an
11 allowable take of the various species, primarily
12 Loggerheads and Kemp's Ridleys at that time, and made
13 some recommendations, but I don't think they were ever
14 adopted.
15 CHAIRMAN BASS: Can you tell us what
16 those were even though they're not --
17 MR. CAILLOUET: Not without having the
18 report before me.
19 In the final analysis, the group split
20 into two factions and could not agree on those levels
21 for certain species.
22 CHAIRMAN BASS: Imagine that.
23 MR. GALLAWAY: The numbers in the report
24 for Kemp's Ridley was stock-wide; that is, across the
25 United States, on the order of about 350.
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1 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you.
2 David Owens, would you please come
3 forward and speak. And I'd like Tim Jones to be
4 prepared to speak after Mr. Owens.
5 MR. OWENS: Hi, I'm David Owens. I'm
6 currently a professor of biology and director of the
7 graduate program in marine biology at the University of
8 Charleston, but the whole story is I spent 21 years at
9 Texas A & M, and just last year, my wife's family moved
10 to Charleston, and she wanted to live near her family,
11 so that's why I left Texas A & M. But I really love
12 Texas. I feel I owe a great deal to the state for the
13 employment that I had, for the students, your kids,
14 some of you, maybe, that I got a chance to work with,
15 and so I felt this was an obligation I had to come back
16 and throw in my two cents worth. For the record, I
17 paid for it myself. I'm not representing anybody,
18 except myself.
19 I have spoken with the people from the
20 state of South Carolina, and they are very excited
21 about the ideas you've come up with here, that your
22 staff has come up with here, because these -- this is
23 new territory. This is a chance to really try to solve
24 a nagging problem in how we use our coastal resources.
25 We hear about dead zones, red tides,
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1 Pfiesteria, all kinds of things. And I think part of
2 the reason is we're working our coast way too hard. I
3 think we can catch our shrimp, which I incidentally
4 love to eat, and I've worked very closely with the
5 folks in the shrimping industry. I feel very proud of
6 their effort, very proud of how hard they have worked
7 to use TEDs, which, of course, they fought very hard,
8 in the eighties, when we were trying to get them
9 implemented. They now tell me, for the most part, it's
10 a great idea that's working, that's helping to solve
11 the problem.
12 Unfortunately, when you have the
13 mortality rates that we have off the south Texas coast,
14 we have, really, a new problem, and the new problem is
15 it's working, but it's not working. It's working from
16 the standpoint of we are beginning to recover the
17 species. That's the good news. The bad news is
18 they're coming to Texas to die. They nest in Rancho
19 Nuevo; that's for sure, but almost half of them migrate
20 through the Texas coastal -- shallow water coastal
21 areas to live off Texas and Louisiana, and even as far
22 east as Florida, and then, of course, make this annual
23 migration.
24 So the problem is we've kind of begun to
25 solve the problem, but I really very much feel that my
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1 two sons, who are both Texans, deserve the opportunity
2 to see nesting in the state of Texas. So, for that
3 reason, I strongly support the initial -- or not the
4 initial, but sort of the second iteration, which would
5 protect an area -- as an experiment, protect an area
6 off Padre Island National Seashore year-round, because
7 I think, as my mom used to say, you know, there's no
8 sense doing it if you're not going to do it right, and
9 I think, to do it right, scientifically, we need to
10 protect the thing year-round.
11 Final comment is a biological comment,
12 and I apologize. As an old biology professor, I can't
13 help but bring this up, and you've probably heard this
14 story, but turtles and reptiles, in general, are quite
15 different from other animals. They do not have XY
16 chromosomes. XY chromosome, of course, produces a
17 female in a mammal, and an XX -- I mean, a male, and
18 the XX chromosome would produce a female. The problem
19 is turtles use the temperature --
20 MR. SANSOM: If you could make a
21 concluding statement, Dr. Owens. Thank you.
22 MR. OWENS: Temperature-dependant sex
23 determination, it could very well be that the small
24 nesting population in Texas may be producing the males
25 for this population over the next century. I think
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1 it's a very important biological point that's been --
2 that's not been brought up. Thank you.
3 CHAIRMAN BASS: Tim Jones. And, George
4 Deshotelt, if you'd be prepared to speak after Mr.
5 Jones.
6 MR. JONES: Chairman Bass, members of
7 the Commission, my name is Tim Jones. I'm --
8 CHAIRMAN BASS: Pardon me a minute.
9 If we could please give Mr. Jones the
10 courtesy of being quiet. Thank you.
11 MR. JONES: I'm with the Environmental
12 Board for the City of Austin.
13 I appreciate your position here. I've
14 often been in a position to have to review conflicting
15 statements.
16 I'm not an expert on shrimp or turtles,
17 but the one thing that strikes me most is that I would
18 like to go down to Padre Island, and I would like to
19 see a Kemp's Ridley turtle in my life. And what I see
20 here, from everything that I've examined, is we have an
21 endangered species in decline, and we have proposals
22 for a no-fishing zone. I was hoping it would be a
23 marine preserve out to five miles, and that it would be
24 all year long, and I was encouraged by that proposal.
25 And I see now that it has been cut back, so that it
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1 will be about half a year, from July 15, I guess, until
2 the 1st of December.
3 I didn't want to see that. I wanted to
4 see a closure, and I wanted to see a marine preserve
5 for the children of Texas to be able to enjoy part of
6 our history and our heritage, and I encourage you to
7 vote for that closure and for the actual establishment
8 of a marine preserve.
9 You have a chance to look far into the
10 future, and I think it is your commission to take care
11 of the interest of all the people of Texas and future
12 generations, and future generations of sea turtles,
13 too. Thank you.
14 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, sir.
15 Mr. Deshotelt, I note here you've marked
16 "observing only," but I've already called you so...
17 MR. DESHOTELT: Well, Mr. Chairman, I
18 just want to thank you-all for implementing the changes
19 that we suggested yesterday. I tell you, I appreciate
20 it. I want to appreciate the staff working with our
21 industry leaders on these regulations. You-all got a
22 tough job, and I can appreciate that. And that was all
23 I was going to say, but I did want to make an
24 observation.
25 I've been a county commissioner long
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1 enough to know -- or long enough that Dicky Travis was
2 sitting over there, and there was some Democrats
3 sitting up there. That's how I've been in here.
4 CHAIRMAN BASS: It's at least 10 years
5 ago.
6 MR. DESHOTELT: Yeah. So -- But I've
7 never felt that politics played a role in the
8 Commission's decisions. I always thought they weighed
9 the options and did what they thought was best for the
10 state, and I just thought I'd throw that out and tell
11 you, you know, you-all got a tough job, and I do
12 appreciate that. Thank you.
13 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, sir. We
14 certainly strive to do as you've observed we do.
15 Dennis Wittenbert? Is Mr. Wittenbert
16 here?
17 AUDIENCE MEMBER: He stepped away. He's
18 coming.
19 CHAIRMAN BASS: All right. While we're
20 waiting on him, let's see if Raymond Mathews is
21 available to speak.
22 Mr. Wittenbert, if you can hold up just
23 a minute, we'll let Mr. Mathews speak since he's closer
24 to the podium than you are at this time.
25 MR. MATHEWS: Good afternoon,
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1 Commissioners, and Andy. I'm Ray Mathews. I'm
2 representing the Texas Academy of Science.
3 The Texas Academy of Science's
4 Threatened or Endangered Species Section, also known as
5 TOESS, is concerned that thousands of sea turtles have
6 died in Texas waters over the years, and particularly
7 the endangered sea turtles that have lived in south
8 Texas coastal waters. Many of those stranding
9 mortalities are adult Kemp's Ridleys that have returned
10 to nest on Padre Island National Seashore, and the
11 juveniles that are using the warm coastal shallow
12 waters as nursery grounds.
13 According to numerous reports and law
14 enforcement records, many shrimpers are misusing their
15 turtle excluder devices, TEDs. Perhaps as much as 40
16 percent of all shrimp vessels are tying TEDs shut,
17 resulting in considerable mortality to endangered sea
18 turtles. While most shrimpers are properly using the
19 TEDs apparatus to allow for the safe release of sea
20 turtles, we know that some are not, and that is enough
21 to kill a lot of sea turtles.
22 The lack of sufficient control over this
23 technology and the lack of volunteer compliance by a
24 significant minority of the shrimping industry have
25 resulted in sea turtles dying in such great numbers
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1 that their existence is in jeopardy. None of us want
2 to see them disappear from existence after such a
3 valiant effort to return them to our Texas seashores.
4 Therefore, the Academy supports the Texas Parks and
5 Wildlife Department's proposed changes to the Texas
6 Shrimp Fishery rules that could help protect these
7 endangered sea turtles.
8 We believe that the Texas Parks and
9 Wildlife Commission should approve the plan and extend
10 the no-shrimp zone out to nine nautical miles along the
11 Padre Island National Seashore, to allow the federal
12 government to follow the department's example and
13 extend the closure into federal waters for protection
14 of the sea turtles, shrimp, and fin fishery.
15 Long-term scientific monitoring of the
16 Texas Shrimp Fishery by the department clearly
17 indicates that this important and economically valuable
18 natural resource is being harvested into oblivion and
19 could collapse unless prudent management practices and
20 protective zones are implemented.
21 The impacts caused by modern shrimping
22 practices result not only in the demise of the sea
23 turtles, but also the unintended bycatch of blue crabs,
24 flounder, and red drum.
25 The disturbances of bottom-dwelling
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1 communities and their habitat that provide food and
2 protection for many species also are impacted by
3 drawing nets. The loss of these species and their
4 habitats is analogous to the canary in the mine that
5 signals danger to all living creatures.
6 We support and applaud the department's
7 proposed shrimp management plan as a critically needed
8 conservation action to protect our coastal resources.
9 Thank you.
10 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, Mr. Mathews.
11 Mr. Wittnebert.
12 MR. WITTNEBERT: Mr. Chairman, members
13 of the Commission, I appreciate this time to -- What
14 have I got, five minutes?
15 MR. SANSOM: Three.
16 MR. WITTNEBERT: Three minutes?
17 I would like to talk about turtles, and
18 I'd like to talk about the sea grass and all this, but
19 three minutes is not going to allow me to do that.
20 I've got over 50 years on the Texas
21 Coast, in the waters, fishing and shrimping and
22 oystering crabbing and you name it, and I've come to
23 represent a good part of the people from middle Texas
24 coast, in the Calhoun County area, in particularly.
25 And I know that you men have an awesome job as to be
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1 the steward over the resources in the state of Texas,
2 and I know that you have a hard time. This one gets up
3 and wants this, and that one is -- like a bunch of kids
4 arguing over things. I didn't come to argue, but I
5 come to say some things that I've noticed, and I hope
6 time will permit just a few minutes.
7 You're stewards over this, and you're
8 accountable to the state of Texas, but more than that,
9 you're accountable under Almighty God. Now, I didn't
10 come to preach to you, but I want to remind you of
11 that. And we, too, as men that work in these waters
12 for a lifetime, are stewards of our own industry, and
13 we do the best we can to take care of that. So no
14 matter how much mud gets thrown at us today, we do the
15 very best we can, and I'll remind you that shrimping
16 has been going on about a hundred years on the Texas
17 coast, and I don't know of anything that's been
18 depleted since we've been shrimping there. The grass
19 is still there; the croakers are still there; the
20 shrimp are still there. The turtles are getting
21 thicker all the time. And so there's a bunch of
22 cotton-picking wind-blowing in here today that's not
23 the gospel truth. I want to tell you that.
24 And I don't envy you, your position,
25 when you come to vote on this thing, but you know
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1 that -- you may know and you may not. I was one of the
2 men that worked about a year to implement the Limited
3 Entry Program, and I think we come up with a good
4 program. It's a program that will keep us from
5 overfishing. I'm so sick of hearing that the shrimping
6 is going to collapse. You what to know make would make
7 the shrimping collapse? I could take you in a boat and
8 take you up where the plants drain into those bays and
9 estuarine areas, and I could show you what's going to
10 cause it to collapse if it ever does.
11 To make the shrimping industry collapse
12 is about as foolish as saying we're going to spray
13 mosquitos for a while and they're going to all be gone.
14 That's just about as sensible as the shrimping
15 collapsing. It will never collapse in Texas under the
16 present laws we now work under. We've got laws that
17 regulate us where we can't drag 24 hours a day; we
18 can't drag but little nets a great majority of the
19 time, and we have to keep so many pounds, and that's
20 all -- we are regulated enough, men and ladies. And I
21 hope you'll understand that. And I hope that this
22 Commission today, when this is all said and done, that
23 you'll give us some time. I know we've had a couple of
24 months, and it's on record --
25 MR. SANSOM: Thank you, Mr. Wittnebert,
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1 if you could conclude your remarks.
2 MR. WITTNEBERT: Is that it already?
3 MR. SANSOM: Yes, sir.
4 MR. WITTNEBERT: I'm sorry. I thought
5 I --
6 CHAIRMAN BASS: Go ahead and complete
7 your remark, please.
8 MR. WITTNEBERT: -- was just getting
9 started.
10 Sir?
11 CHAIRMAN BASS: Go ahead and conclude
12 your remark.
13 MR. WITTNEBERT: Well, you got me
14 confused now.
15 I'll tell you this: We come up here to
16 object to all of these regulations. There's some
17 things in there we can probably work with and work out,
18 but I would ask you to give us -- give us a year until
19 you meet again. Let some of our men, like we've been
20 doing the past few months, meet with the staff and come
21 up with some sensible things that won't kill the
22 shrimpers and put us out.
23 Now, this is serious. If it was your
24 business you was talking about, you would be fighting
25 it; I will guarantee you. You know that. You're all
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1 businessmen.
2 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, sir.
3 MR. WITTNEBERT: Or you wouldn't be up
4 behind this desk.
5 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, sir.
6 MR. WITTNEBERT: Think about it real
7 seriously.
8 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you.
9 That concludes our public testimony at
10 this time. And for those of you who are hear to speak
11 on other agenda items than shrimp today that are in the
12 audience, I commend you for your patience and
13 dedication to your agenda item and cause.
14 Mr. Osburn, do you have any particular
15 things that you would like to say or comment on, in
16 response to the public testimony, prior to the
17 opportunity for the Commission to ask you specific
18 questions they might have?
19 MR. OSBURN: Yes, sir, let me -- a
20 couple of questions that we heard and may be some
21 confusion, I want to it clarify it.
22 The specific rules that are in the Texas
23 Register item for the turtle excluder devices are those
24 that are basically identical to those in the federal
25 rules. We did that so that there would not be
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1 confusion between the state rule and the federal rule,
2 and so those that are using the turtle excluder device
3 will not have to modify their devices for that
4 consistency.
5 For the bycatch reduction devices, the
6 bycatch reduction devices are also required in federal
7 waters, based on rules promulgated by the Gulf Council.
8 We designed the rules in our draft proclamation to
9 allow any of the bycatch reduction devices that are
10 allowed in federal waters to also be allowed in state
11 waters. In addition, our rules will actually allow
12 more liberal interpretations, placements. The Sea
13 Eagle, which is one of the newest favorite BRDs out
14 there will be allowed; it would not have been allowed
15 under strict federal rules. So our BRD rules are going
16 to be actually more liberal than the federal rules, and
17 our TED rules will be identical.
18 The couple of questions about the 15-day
19 closure on the end of the fall season that is proposed
20 to be adopted, ecologically, I would point out that
21 the -- that time of year is when the small shrimp -- I
22 think you heard testimony from the bays -- particularly
23 white shrimp, move into the Gulf. The fronts, cold
24 weather, lower tides, move the shrimp out.
25 The current rules allow -- and this has
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1 been in place for a long time -- allow the shrimpers to
2 change their net size on November 1st, from an inch and
3 three-quarter net, to an inch and three-eighths net,
4 specifically to target the smaller sized shrimp. So it
5 is a well-known phenomena that November has smaller
6 shrimp.
7 What we hope to do with that 15-day
8 closure ecologically is to retain some of those small
9 shrimp when they escape to the Gulf and allow them to,
10 over winter, be available for the fleet in the spring
11 when they have reached a larger size. Even though
12 there will be some natural mortality, the overall
13 growth rate should allow us to actually increase our
14 biomass.
15 Looking at the economics of that
16 particular 15 days, we used National Marine Fisheries
17 Services data, over as long a period of time as we
18 could, and came up with about 1.7 percent of the bay
19 landings occur in that 2-week time period. Normally,
20 on a normal year, there's about 18 million pounds of
21 shrimp harvested out of the bays. That 15 days would
22 be about 300,000 pounds out of the 18 million.
23 Generally, the shrimp, because of the smaller size,
24 value is about a dollar a pound, so that's about
25 $300,000. We do project, because of the growth and
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1 survival of those shrimp, that that economic loss at
2 that time will be deferred to the springtime.
3 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Excuse me. Will
4 those shrimp come back into the bay because of the bay
5 or because of the Gulf?
6 MR. OSBURN: Both. In the spring, they
7 will generally be on the beach, and some of them will
8 come back into the bay if it's a milder winter, and
9 they will be available to the bay fleet as well as to
10 the Gulf fleet, but, primarily, we would see them in
11 the beach area. Those will form part of the spawning
12 stock that, when May rolls around, they will be part of
13 that spawning stock.
14 COMMISSIONER RYAN: Hal, could you
15 comment on that, the statement we heard about these
16 shrimp migrating to Mexico?
17 MR. OSBURN: Yes, sir. There was a lot
18 of effort done, in the 1970s, some in the eighties, on
19 actually tagging shrimp. We participated with the
20 National Marine Fisheries Service and with the Mexican
21 government, on releasing tagged shrimp at different
22 places along the coast. We did an experiment down in
23 the Valley where we released them off South Padre
24 Island. They were also released down in Mexico. There
25 was a reward for the tag, and we -- based on where the
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1 shrimpers said that they caught that tag, we calculated
2 movements.
3 There was movement south, from Texas,
4 into Mexico, but there was also movement north, from
5 Mexico, into Texas.
6 Overall, it's difficult to say if it
7 balanced out, but in -- I've seen several studies of
8 analyzing those data, and in some cases, it would
9 indicate that it's pretty much a -- pretty much an even
10 split, that depending on the currents that year, that
11 particular year, we will see shrimp moving up from
12 Mexico; other years, we may see slightly more moving
13 down to Mexico. But that zone does produce
14 cross-border movement both directions.
15 COMMISSIONER AVILA: Hal, when do these
16 regulations go into effect? Tell me again what year.
17 MR. OSBURN: We're suggesting different
18 dates. Those rules that impact their equipment, their
19 gear, like the BRDs, we would -- and the fees, we
20 propose that that would not occur until September of
21 2001, to give us time for the BRDs, for the TEDs, to
22 basically be installed -- be purchased and installed.
23 The two-net rule in the three-mile zone
24 is proposed to not begin until the -- July 15th or the
25 summer -- the date of the summer Gulf opening, which
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1 would obviously be next year, so that there is an
2 opportunity again for those that need to switch to two
3 nets of 130 foot of head rope have an opportunity to
4 get their gear ready for that season.
5 The closure in the south zone for the
6 spring, where we're basically adding the months of
7 February 15th to May 15th, we would propose that that
8 start for the beginning of this next spring season, so
9 that that closure would be in effect, since there's no
10 gear changes needed there.
11 COMMISSIONER RYAN: Is there any way --
12 CHAIRMAN BASS: Excuse me.
13 COMMISSIONER RYAN: -- of predicting
14 how --
15 CHAIRMAN BASS: Excuse me.
16 And to continue that, go ahead and speak
17 to the expansion of nurseries, et cetera.
18 MR. OSBURN: Expansion of the nursery
19 areas are proposed to not begin before December 1, to
20 begin on December 1, so that this fall season, they
21 would -- the nursery areas and bait bays and major bays
22 would remain identical, so that would give us a number
23 of months to make sure that information has gotten out.
24 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you. I'm sorry,
25 Mr. Ryan.
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1 COMMISSIONER RYAN: Is there any way of
2 determining how much shrimping goes on in the Gulf
3 within the five nautical miles?
4 MR. OSBURN: We depend on reports from
5 National Marine Fisheries Service with the port agents,
6 that they report back the depth that they catch their
7 shrimp. That is self-reported data. We started this
8 year, or may have several other years worth of arial
9 flights over where we looked at the amount of shrimping
10 going on, and part of what we documented this year was
11 a very small number of boats in that five-mile zone
12 during the open season, and we think we can continue
13 with those ariel flights as a way to monitor exactly
14 when they're in there.
15 So when the season is open next July,
16 and there is that three-mile zone with the two-net
17 rule, we will monitor that and be able to provide you,
18 actually, the impacts of that rule.
19 COMMISSIONER IDSAL: I've got a
20 question. How many months following full
21 implementation of the regs might we be seeing some
22 preliminary studies on benefits or lack of benefits
23 from the regs? I know somebody said five years before
24 we had full understanding. Would we be able to find
25 out something sooner than that?
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1 MR. OSBURN: We have a year-round
2 coastal water monitoring program. We can provide those
3 data at any time. We would be caveating it -- If the
4 landings went up and it looked like the regs from, you
5 know, a gift from Poseidon, we would still be caveating
6 it that this is only one year and it may be an
7 aberration, and so we would be still wanting to have
8 several more years. But we can, each year, give you a
9 data point or where we are on a whole host of
10 parameters, and, of course, as complex as the -- three
11 different species, several different areas that they're
12 fished, and we will attempt to do that if you so
13 desire.
14 And I think there was another question
15 that I wanted to ask Bob Sweeney's staff attorney to
16 address regarding the regulatory impact statement.
17 MR. SWEENEY: Commissioners, if you'd
18 like to hear about the question about the applicability
19 of the regulatory impact analysis statute that was
20 raised by the lawyer for the Calhoun County Shrimpers,
21 I'm prepared to address that.
22 CHAIRMAN BASS: If you would, please.
23 MR. SWEENEY: The statute that's
24 referred to is completely inapplicable in this case,
25 and we've provided more than adequate notice. This
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1 would be a notice provision that he's referring to.
2 The regulatory impact analysis statute
3 that he's referring to applies to what the statute
4 calls -- This is going to go into a little bit of
5 detail -- what they call major environmental rules, and
6 those are defined in the statute.
7 The classic case -- What they're meant
8 to get at is a situation where let's say there's a
9 federal law covering exposure to arsenic, and the
10 standard is 10, and the state wants to come in and say,
11 "Well, but in Texas, we're going to have a tougher
12 standard; we're going to have a standard that's 1," all
13 right? That's the classic situation that that
14 regulatory impact analysis statute that's referred to
15 was meant to apply to. But that doesn't apply in this
16 case, for two reasons: First of all, there is no
17 explicit federal or state statute that applies in this
18 case that's exceeded. So that's number one. That's
19 clear that that's not applicable for that reason.
20 Second of all, the statute -- a word was
21 omitted in his presentation. But it refers to a
22 situation of "exposure" to human health or the
23 environment. "Exposure risk," and that's the situation
24 where it's intended to apply, and that's why the
25 classic case of a chemical or something like that, that
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1 sort of rule. And that, unfortunately, was omitted in
2 that presentation, but that is another key reason why
3 that is not applicable to the notice provisions in this
4 case.
5 And then he makes a final point that if,
6 for some reason, a court decides, as I believe
7 emphatically it wouldn't, that this is an applicable
8 notice provision, and the rules had gone into effect
9 without complying with it, the law says, generally
10 speaking, that the court will leave the rule in place
11 until that notice provision is satisfied. That's the
12 way the law currently reads. I believe that there is
13 no chance that a court would find that there's
14 inadequate notice, but even if that were found, then
15 that's what the court, in all likely, would do. So I
16 hope that's an adequate answer.
17 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you.
18 Mr. Osburn, could you please return.
19 Mr. Angelo, would you care to direct a
20 question?
21 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Mr. Osburn, I had
22 a question regarding the 30-day closure in the Gulf,
23 the additional 30 days. If you could give the
24 biological explanation for that as you did for the 15
25 days.
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1 MR. OSBURN: Yes, sir, and it is
2 similar. Currently, the bay season ends on December
3 15th, and that's also when the Gulf winter season
4 closure begins. So moving the bay season closure back
5 to December 1 where those small shrimp are escaping
6 into the Gulf, to allow those small shrimp to continue
7 their growth, we needed to move that December 15th
8 closure back to December 1st to coincide with that so
9 that we actually provide protection for those shrimp
10 from the bay and in the Gulf as they reside in the
11 Gulf, and we did receive public testimony that that was
12 a critical time period for those white shrimp to be
13 protected from the industry in several instances.
14 We also, on the February 1st to February
15 15th, found that less than one percent of the landings
16 occurred in that time period. It's not always the
17 greatest time to be out in that Gulf, and that that
18 two-week time period would also provide some ecological
19 benefits from a smaller extension of the protection of
20 those white shrimp that have basically made it through
21 the winter in preparing for the spring harvest season
22 and spawning season.
23 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: And I had one
24 other question regarding the coastal regulations, the
25 three miles, and the other regulations regarding the
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1 coastal areas. What would you say about the biological
2 benefits to the shrimp population with respect to those
3 recommendations?
4 MR. OSBURN: I will tell when we looked
5 very closely at our data and the National Marine
6 Fisheries Service landings data, but also our data
7 where we had the great fortune of having a fleet of
8 vessels that can go out into the Gulf, have been
9 sampling out there since the eighties, and randomly --
10 and looked at the sizes and numbers of shrimp that we
11 saw by depth zone and miles.
12 The three-mile line actually is a very
13 good breaking point. Inside of three miles, we saw the
14 greatest abundance of the large white shrimp. Outside
15 of the three miles, that abundance did drop off, which
16 helped justify the compromise back to the three-mile
17 line. Three miles provides significant benefits in
18 terms of protection of the white shrimp. It also is an
19 area that's critical to the small brown shrimp as they
20 stage up, moving out of the bays, before they move to
21 deeper water. They distribute themselves, scatter,
22 outside of there, in general, but the three miles is a
23 biological zone that we can justify.
24 It also, from that biodiversity
25 standpoint, I know we want to look at that harder in
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1 the future, but the closer you get to shore, the
2 greater the diversity you generally see. As the fresh
3 water mixes with the salt water in that near-shore
4 zone, the turbidity creates habitats that are conducive
5 to a number of species' life cycles, and we see a great
6 diversity, whether it's puppying grounds for sharks or
7 other large schools of bait fish. Very important zone
8 biologically.
9 CHAIRMAN BASS: Hal, there are a couple
10 of points that Mr. Blevens brought up, one having to do
11 with the closure line of the nursery area in San
12 Antonio Bay, and spoke to some obstructions that where
13 involved with that line. Do you have comments on that
14 particular point that he raised?
15 MR. OSBURN: Well, yes, sir, we did look
16 at those maps. There is oyster reefs that run the
17 entire north/south access of San Antonio Bay. It has
18 some great oyster reefs. The shrimpers historically
19 have had to fish around oysters reefs. Obviously, it's
20 not good for your trawl dragging across those. And
21 those experienced folks like Dennis Wittnebert and
22 Wesley Blevens have the knowledge to do that and are
23 successful.
24 That new nursery area would cut across
25 part of some of those reefs, I believe, where, rather
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1 than making a complete circle around the reef as they
2 approach the nursery area, they would have to pull
3 their trawls up, and they would have to go around that
4 oyster reefs, come back in, outside of the nursery
5 area, and trawl, but it would be -- there's still the
6 significant area that remains for the trawling, and
7 those shrimp that are protected in that nursery area
8 will move out and be available to harvest. So we see
9 that there may be some inconvenience there, but that's
10 generally the case throughout our bay systems that have
11 oyster reefs, though. You have to accommodate around
12 oyster reefs.
13 CHAIRMAN BASS: He also mentioned that a
14 TED that was equipped with a three-inch grid, I believe
15 he referred to, served as an extremely effective
16 bycatch reduction device. Could you speak to that?
17 MR. OSBURN: Yes, sir, it works on the
18 large fish, primarily. The TEDs in the Gulf that have
19 been worked with, in the federal waters, have excluded
20 the large fish. You know, a big red drum used to be
21 caught, and they're excluded now. The smaller fish,
22 the juveniles, are smaller than three inches, and they
23 pass through that.
24 We did test some TEDs with the smaller
25 grids, the grids closer together, and we found it to be
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1 one of our poorer performing bycatch reduction devices.
2 Any TED that the federal government approves as a BRD,
3 and there are several apparatuses that can be used as
4 both, will fall under our rules and be allowed in the
5 bay. So if that is --
6 CHAIRMAN BASS: So it is possible to rig
7 a TED, under the proposed rules, that would serve as a
8 bycatch reduction device?
9 MR. OSBURN: Yes.
10 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you.
11 Any questions?
12 Well, as we have seen today, there are a
13 lot of divergent points of view on this issue and a lot
14 of passionate points of view of this issue. As a
15 number of people said to this Commission, I don't envy
16 your job today.
17 Is there a discussion from the
18 Commission? Yes, sir?
19 COMMISSIONER HEATH: Mr. Chairman, as we
20 consider this matter, I have sat here probably
21 unusually quiet today, and I've done so, frankly,
22 because this is a complex issue and one that I know all
23 of my fellow commissioners have worked hard to get
24 their arms around, as have I.
25 I would say that in the five and a half
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1 years, Mr. Chairman, that I have been here, this is the
2 most difficult decision that I've been faced with,
3 because of the parties -- the breadth of the parties
4 and individuals, as well as the resource that is
5 impacted.
6 If I may, Mr. Chairman, I would like to
7 say that I've been disappointed that, in my opinion, an
8 in-depth economic study has not been adequately
9 presented to the Commission. I'm concerned with the
10 potential economic impact to the industry and to women,
11 the men, and the children who will be impacted by a
12 decision that we might make.
13 Further, I'd like to say, Mr. Chairman,
14 that for five and a half years here, I've been a very,
15 very strong supporter of what I truly believe is an
16 extraordinary staff of individuals, and I certainly
17 remain clearly in that position today.
18 I am, however, disappointed in one
19 particular thing and a flurry that I think that it
20 caused, and that was a statement that was made in
21 regards to the -- and I quote -- collapse, or potential
22 collapse, of the industry. I see it as inflammatory
23 and created substantial concern by the Commission that
24 made this challenging -- more challenging for us to
25 work through, and possibly just a slip or an error, and
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1 I accept it as such, but I think we have to be very
2 careful when we're talking about issues that so
3 directly impact, not only the resource, but impact
4 lives, in exactly what we say and the words we might
5 use.
6 That said, Mr. Chairman, I'm prepared to
7 make a motion, on your timing, sir, to pass the
8 proposed amendment suggested by staff, in light of our
9 responsibility to protect and to conserve the resource.
10 And I'd like to suggest, at the same time,
11 Mr. Chairman, that the Chair direct staff to institute
12 a coast-wide study immediately, a study of the resource
13 of the industry and the economic impact of individuals
14 within the community. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
15 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, sir.
16 Any other comments? Yes, ma'am.
17 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Thank you,
18 Mr. Chairman.
19 We had a number of speakers who
20 commented on the fact that they would prefer not to be
21 public speakers, but I wanted to say that I personally
22 appreciate all of you taking the time and going through
23 the agony of having to make a speech, and then the time
24 of traveling long distances and missing time away from
25 your work. But I think that the speakers we have heard
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1 from have been not only effective, but they've been
2 substantive in the remarks that they've made.
3 I also believe that it's been quite
4 beneficial to hear from scientists outside of the
5 department staff, and I appreciate their bringing their
6 expertise to bear on the issues that we're considering.
7 This has not been easy, as Commissioner
8 Heath said, but if it were easy to make these
9 decisions, we wouldn't all be here for this amount of
10 time.
11 I believe that we have heard sufficient
12 information, I think, the information that we need on
13 which to make a decision, and I look forward to the
14 results of the studies that we have been assured would
15 be done, and I think there are some very intriguing
16 points on statistical analysis of the existing data
17 that were presented by Dr. Caillouet that we do need to
18 hear back from staff on as they conduct these studies.
19 The conclusions that we have heard from
20 the scientists about growth overfishing being a reality
21 now, and about the possibility of recruitment
22 overfishing, and the concern that that should be
23 avoided at all costs, is really forming the views to
24 which I've come to this issue.
25 Finally, I would say, about the turtles,
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1 the objectives here clearly are important to all of us,
2 and in the testimony, we heard a lot about individuals
3 and about stranding of individuals, but we didn't here
4 much focus on the fact that the trend lines show
5 improvement for the Kemp's Ridley sea turtle, and that
6 is what I would like to focus on.
7 I think, if we were to adopt, as a
8 Commission, the proposed rule change from staff, that
9 we would be doing more in the future than we're doing
10 today. And so I believe that the proposals that have
11 been made are appropriate ones. Thank you,
12 Mr. Chairman.
13 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you.
14 Mr. Watson?
15 COMMISSIONER WATSON: Mr. Chairman, I'd
16 just like to make a brief statement of the fact that I
17 really appreciate the comments that everybody has made,
18 not only here today, but in the public comment hearings
19 that we've have around the state. I think everything
20 has come as men and women of goodwill.
21 I think that, you know, undoubtedly,
22 these are very, very emotionally based issues, and I
23 don't think there's any way to -- you know, to avoid
24 those situations, but I do think that the staff has
25 presented us with sufficient data. I've only been here
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1 for a year and a half, but I've been going to the coast
2 for over 50 years, and I want to see the bays estuary
3 systems of Texas returned to the way they were 50 years
4 ago, and I feel like that these are steps that will
5 point us in the right direction. And, again, I'd like
6 to thank everybody, including the staff, for all the
7 work they've done, but I would like to see us move to
8 adopt the regulations as we presently have on the
9 table.
10 COMMISSIONER AVILA: Mr. Chairman?
11 CHAIRMAN BASS: Yes, sir.
12 COMMISSIONER AVILA: I just wanted to
13 comment, as well, many of the people in the shrimping
14 industry have seen the varying commissioners here at
15 the hearings and on shrimp boats, and I just wanted
16 those in the public audience that did not know this,
17 that this has been an issue which has been the most
18 difficult things that we've all had to deal with,
19 perhaps, in the time that we've served on the
20 Commission. And so, not at the staff's urging, but in
21 our own initiatives, we got up and went down the coast
22 and got on shrimping boats and talked with you people
23 that are in that industry and what it means to the
24 Texas coast, went to the public hearings, and so on,
25 and what you see from your efforts is the modifications
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1 to the original regulations as they were initially
2 proposed to us by staff, and that has come from the
3 collaboration and the meetings and your suggestions.
4 And so I was just handed an article here
5 from the Houston Post that tells us that we're selling
6 out by weakening and modifying the original
7 regulations, but I say that I think we've done what we
8 needed to do to compromise, and for the Commission to
9 do not nothing or to take no action based on the
10 statistics about growth overfishing would be wrong, so
11 I support the regulations as they now have been
12 modified.
13 And I also want to say to you that the
14 Commission has often taken exception to staff or told
15 staff to table issues or to restudy issues, in the
16 past, on other issues, whether it be wildlife or
17 economic impact things to parks or acquiring land or so
18 forth, so for you in the shrimping industry, this isn't
19 a rubber stamp post up here, whatsoever. And that we
20 have been presented modifications to regulations on a
21 recurring basis as we look at regulations, that either
22 tighten them or loosen up on them and so forth, so I
23 think this is a starting point that we need to be at
24 and to take action rather than to delay and be
25 continually talking about this for the rest of our
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1 careers. So I support the regulations as they're
2 modified.
3 COMMISSIONER HENRY: Mr. Chairman?
4 CHAIRMAN BASS: Yes, sir.
5 COMMISSIONER HENRY: I'm obliged to
6 thank, both, our staff and representatives from the
7 industry that's appeared before us in the last couple
8 of days and a couple of months ago to discuss this
9 issue.
10 As John was alluding to, I think it's
11 also important to note that we have received more
12 information on this issue than, probably, all others
13 combined since I've been on this Commission. My wife
14 has kept a tab, a running tab, on the numbers of pieces
15 of correspondence that we get per week concerning this
16 issue, letters as well as faxes, and it's enormous.
17 It's not unusual for me to -- I ended up getting a
18 larger post office box, because it's not unusual to get
19 from as many as 20 to 30 letters in a day, along with
20 other packages of information that the various
21 organizations and individuals have submitted on this
22 issues.
23 So I hope that no one thinks that it's
24 just that we began to study the issue in the last two
25 days or to hear points of view, both, pro and con, in
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1 the last couple of days. For the past four months,
2 I've read more about shrimping issues and turtle issues
3 than I ever thought possible. So I thought it was
4 important to say that, and to recognize that we make
5 the best decision that we can given the information
6 that we have, and that's our obligation, and that's
7 what, hopefully, we will do. I certainly will attempt
8 to do that.
9 CHAIRMAN BASS: Other comments?
10 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Mr. Chairman, I
11 have been real concerned about the economic impact on
12 those in the shrimping industry, and the fact that
13 we've not been able to, in any way, pin that down has
14 bothered me in reaching a decision regarding this
15 issue. And I know that anyone familiar with
16 governmental regulations would have a hard time
17 believing that any governmental body would take a
18 regulation and look at it and say, well, we've made an
19 overregulation, and we're now going to move back from
20 that regulation and reduce its impact on the affected
21 parties, but I personally have had plenty of reason to
22 doubt the governmental body's willingness to do that,
23 but I'm committed, myself, to that, and I believe that
24 this Commission is committed to studying the results of
25 these regulations as they're implemented, the impact,
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1 not only on the resource, but also on those of you that
2 make your living in the industry that's being affected,
3 and if we can be shown that the regulations are too
4 stringent, if changes could be made that will not harm
5 the resource but will benefit those involved in the
6 industry, then I believe that we will do that, and
7 because I believe that, I'm willing to, today, move
8 forward with the regulations as they're presented.
9 COMMISSIONER IDSAL: I have to agree
10 with Commissioner Heath and Commissioner Angelo when
11 they express their concerns about the economic impact
12 on the industry. I think our responsibilities to the
13 resource are clear, but I think we also have
14 responsibilities to our fellow citizens.
15 I will support this on the same basis
16 that Commissioner Angelo has just expressed, that we
17 follow very carefully the impact that it has, not only
18 on the shrimpers, but, hopefully, the beneficial impact
19 it will have on the resource and on our endangered
20 species.
21 I think everybody on this Commission --
22 I know everybody on this Commission is very concerned
23 about the impact on turtles, but I would like the staff
24 to keep us apprised of developments as we learn about
25 them. I would like room and time to come to decisions,
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1 and I'd like to work, in the future, on improving the
2 process that we use. I think that's important for
3 everyone, and it makes our job, never easy, but a
4 little less difficult. Thank you.
5 CHAIRMAN BASS: Pitchers always bat
6 last.
7 COMMISSIONER RYAN: I sit here with very
8 mixed emotions on this issue because of the complexity
9 of it, and I think, because of, before this issue came
10 up, my lack of knowledge on the issue, and I think, as
11 we got into it, with the complexity of it, that it even
12 made it a tougher situation for me than before. But I
13 would like to say that I truly appreciate everyone's
14 interest. And to the shrimpers, who have come here
15 during a time that has taken away from their work,
16 which, their time on the water is limited, as we all
17 know, and this issue has already had an economic impact
18 on you by being here and going to meetings, I
19 appreciate you being here, and I appreciate your input.
20 And as we have talked, as a Commission,
21 throughout this process, we all have agonized over it
22 at times and had very mixed feelings on which way to go
23 and what was the right thing to do, but as I sit here
24 today, I can honestly say that my comfort level hasn't
25 improved that much, but I think that, with my
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1 appointment to this Commission, I have to do what I
2 think is in the best interest, but I do appreciate
3 you-all's interest. Thank you.
4 CHAIRMAN BASS: Commissioner Heath,
5 would you please restate your motion, for clarity,
6 since --
7 COMMISSIONER HEATH: I'd like to make a
8 motion, Mr. Chairman, to pass the proposed amendments
9 suggested by staff, and would just ask, also,
10 Mr. Chairman, that I do so in the context of your
11 requesting staff to institute a coast-wide study of the
12 resource, the industry, and the economic impact to
13 individuals in the community.
14 CHAIRMAN BASS: Chair has a motion.
15 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Second.
16 MR. OSBURN: Mr. Chairman, does that
17 include the amendments that were made today?
18 COMMISSIONER HEATH: That does.
19 CHAIRMAN BASS: Yes, it does. Thank you
20 for clarifying that, Mr. Osburn.
21 Chair has a motion and a second. Is
22 there any further comment or discussion?
23 All in favor say aye. Any opposed?
24 Hearing no opposed, the motion carries.
25 (Motion carries unanimously.)
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1 "The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission adopts
2 amendments to 31 TAC SS58.160-58.151, and 58.163-58.165
3 concerning the Statewide Shrimp Fishery Proclamation,
4 and to 31 TAC SS53.3, 53.6, and 53.7 with changes to
5 the proposed text as published in the July 14, 2000
6 issue of the Texas Register (25TexReg)."
7 CHAIRMAN BASS: Mr. Sansom, I think we
8 have done something that I -- Before y'all leave, just
9 one other comment I'd like to make.
10 I think what we've done here today is
11 something that, basically, has left nobody completely
12 happy. It's been said that maybe that's an indication
13 that sometimes you've done the right thing because
14 nobody likes it.
15 I will direct you, Mr. Sansom, to
16 present, in less than 30 days, to the Commission, a
17 proposal for a study that would be a coast-wide study
18 of the shrimp industry, the resources, and the
19 collateral resources that are impacted, be they
20 bycatch, turtles, et cetera. That that study proposal
21 also include a study of the industry itself, the human
22 impacts, and the economic impacts, and to present us
23 with a proposal for such a study in no more than 30
24 days for us to review and comment on and attempt to
25 initiate at the earliest possible time, to track the
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1 impacts of these actions as well as other things so
2 that -- so that future commissions can hopefully have
3 an easier time of making hard decisions.
4 I'd also like to ask that the Shrimp
5 Advisory Committee, that you bring forth some
6 suggestions to me, as Chairman, for the Shrimp Advisory
7 Committee to perhaps examine its makeup, to include, on
8 a permanent basis, some broader stakeholder groups that
9 are impacted by the industry, realizing that the shrimp
10 are a public resource, and, therefore, there are those
11 other than those directly involved in the industry who
12 have some legitimate concern and interest in that. If
13 you'd bring such a proposal to my attention, also.
14 I think that the Shrimp Advisory
15 Committee needs to be an integral part of any study
16 that we do -- the study we will do, going forward from
17 here, and I look forward to your proposal at that time.
18 MR. SANSOM: You will have it.
19 CHAIRMAN BASS: Given the hour, we're
20 going to, I believe, adjourn from our public schedule
21 so that the Commission and those in the audience can
22 get a little sustenance to get us through the rest of
23 the agenda in the afternoon.
24 And, also, at that time, while we're in
25 adjournment from public session, I'd like to announce
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1 that, pursuant to the Open Meetings Law, an executive
2 session will be held for consideration of the executive
3 director's performance review, which is an annual
4 event, which always takes place in August.
5 Given the conclusion of that, we'll
6 convene back in this room and pursue with our agenda
7 after this recess.
8 I think I've previously stated
9 "adjourn." We'll temporarily recess. Thank you very
10 much.
11 (Recess, whereupon an Executive Session
12 was held.)
13 AGENDA ITEM NO. 7: ACTION - THREATENED AND ENDANGERED
14 SPECIES REGULATIONS
15 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Please come to
16 order.
17 Having completed the recess in the
18 executive session, we will reconvene and consider item
19 Number 7 on the agenda, and this is the threatened and
20 endangered species regulations.
21 And I believe that John Herron will
22 present that item.
23 MR. HERRON: Thank you very much. My
24 name is John Herron. I'm the program director for the
25 Wildlife Diversity Program. I'm just standing here
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1 smiling because we're not going to talk about shrimps.
2 Anyway, this is an action item, request
3 the adoption of regulations that we briefed the
4 Commission on at the last meeting.
5 Two areas were posed to be changed in
6 the regulation. First, we're going to update the
7 threatened and endangered species list. Secondly,
8 we're updating the rules concerning possession of
9 threatened and endangered species.
10 Regarding the proposed changes to our
11 threatened species list, we're proposing to remove
12 three species from the state's threatened list: The
13 McKittrick pennyroyal, which is found only in Texas and
14 New Mexico, and which was federally delisted in '93.
15 The Concho water snake, which was listed
16 in 1986, and it has recently been proposed for federal
17 delisting. Data that has been collected since listing
18 indicates the populations of the Concho water snake are
19 stable. Experts we've consulted agree that the species
20 should now be delisted.
21 And then, thirdly, the jaguar. The
22 jaguar was listed as federally endangered in 1997, and
23 through executive order, it was placed on our
24 endangered species list in 1998, but we neglected to
25 remove it from the threatened species list. So this is
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1 just a housekeeping measure. It still will be
2 maintained on our state endangered species list.
3 We're proposing to add three other
4 species to the threatened species list: The Pecos
5 sunflower, which is found only in Texas and New Mexico,
6 which was federally listed last year.
7 The Arkansas River shiner, found in
8 Texas, New Mexico, Oklahoma, and Kansas, which was
9 federally listed last November.
10 And, finally, the Cagle's map turtle,
11 which is found only in Texas, with a restricted range
12 in the Guadalupe River drainage. This species has been
13 considered for federal listing; however, there's been
14 documented cases of commercial collection of the
15 species that could threaten remaining populations.
16 We're hoping that state listing will bring this
17 commercial collection to a close, thereby protecting
18 the species.
19 In addition, we have changes to the
20 endangered species list. The endangered species list
21 is not done by regulation; it's done by executive
22 order. We did put these changes out for public
23 comment, and we wanted to make sure that the Commission
24 and the public were aware of them at this meeting.
25 We're proposing to remove the Lloyd's
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1 hedgehog cactus from the state endangered species list.
2 This was removed from the federal list, by the Fish and
3 Wildlife Service, last year, and so we're following
4 suite.
5 We're proposing to list the Zapata
6 bladderpod. This species is found in Zapata and Starr
7 County and was federally listed last year.
8 As I said, the second item we're
9 addressing concerns the possession of
10 threatened/endangered species.
11 Our current regulations leave some
12 inconsistencies in regards to possession. For example,
13 concerning black bears, a Texas resident who has a back
14 bear must renew a permit with us annually; however, a
15 nonresident who would come to Texas with a legally
16 acquired black bear would need no permit. So,
17 basically, we're proposing to simplify our regulations
18 and adopt similar requirements for, both, Texas
19 residents and people coming to the state.
20 Briefly, we're proposing to eliminate
21 the permit requirement, which currently includes a
22 veterinary inspection and some reporting requirements.
23 Instead, we're going to replace this with the
24 requirement that anybody who legally -- who is in
25 possession of a listed species that was obtained
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1 legally simply must have, in possession, a
2 documentation proving legal acquisition of that animal,
3 and that documentation would be a bill of sale, an
4 out-of-state permit, or even a notarized statement
5 attesting to the fact that they got the species
6 legally.
7 Three other changes that are in the
8 regulation is a requirement that all specimens of
9 listed mammals and turtles be permanently marked. This
10 is a change from what we published, and I'll go into
11 that in a little more detail shortly.
12 We're also prohibiting the release of
13 captive threatened/endangered species.
14 And, finally, we're amending the
15 regulation to clarify the fact that the endangered
16 species list is by executive order as is stated in
17 statute.
18 We have had a little public comment. We
19 held a public hearing the evening of July 26th, here in
20 Austin. The meeting was attended by four members of
21 the public. One testified. In addition, I've received
22 one written comment concerning the regulations. Quite
23 a bit different than what we went through this morning.
24 And, basically, those comments were asking that Parks
25 and Wildlife allow the propagation and sale threatened
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1 species, primarily turtles.
2 At this time, staff is not supportive of
3 making that change and continues to recommend that we
4 maintain the regulations proposed which would prohibit,
5 both, sale and propagation.
6 In our review, we did come upon two
7 changes that we are recommending that the Commission
8 make to the regulation.
9 First, we're proposing that the language
10 be -- language be added to clarify that this regulation
11 applies to, both, threatened/endangered species and the
12 parts thereof, such as skins, hides, and such.
13 And, secondly, based on staff review and
14 public comment, we're proposing to change the permanent
15 marking that we originally proposed. Originally, what
16 we published proposed that we permanently mark all
17 species that are in possession, but both staff and the
18 public pointed out there are a number of reptiles and
19 amphibians who are simply too small to be permanently
20 marked, even with the embedable PIT tags.
21 In discussing it, we just decided to
22 limit this marking to both mammals and turtles since
23 they're large enough to take the mark, and, actually,
24 are probably the two species groups that are of most
25 interest to us, in terms of making sure they're not
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1 released to the wild.
2 Also, we're specifying be more specific
3 about what that marking needs to be, that it needs to
4 be, indeed, a four-digit alphanumeric identifier.
5 So with that, we request that the
6 Commission approve this regulation with the changes we
7 proposed, and I'd be happy to answer any questions you
8 might have.
9 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Thank you,
10 Mr. Herron. Is it your wish that we generate as much
11 comment as we heard this morning?
12 MR. HERRON: Hey, I'm in for it. I had
13 a Diet Coke. I can go.
14 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Are there any
15 questions by any of the Commissioners?
16 Hearing none then, thank you. We will
17 move to public comment, and first is Ellis Gilleland,
18 Mr. Gilleland, and next up will be John Grant, and
19 following Mr. Grant will be Rick Van Dyke. And those
20 are the persons who signed up on this issue.
21 MR. GILLELAND: My name is Ellis
22 Gilleland. I'm representing Texas Animals, which is an
23 animal rights internet organization.
24 The slides and so forth you just saw is
25 fantasy, except for the last slide. That has not been
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1 published; it's in this gentleman's mind; he dreamed it
2 up. What I'm showing you is reality. This is what has
3 been published in the Texas Register. You've got it in
4 your warm little hand right now.
5 Now, maybe he's going to do that next
6 time, but what is before us is, Number 1, the Park and
7 Wildlife code requires -- in bold I put it -- it
8 requires that you have a regulation and a publication
9 and distribution of lists of species and subspecies of
10 endangered fish or wildlife. I'm reading the law. You
11 cannot repeal what is prescribed by statutory law.
12 68.180 is what you have now, Page 382 of your rules.
13 There's a copy of it. There's your endangered species
14 list. You cannot repeal that, by statutory provision,
15 which I've given you in your hand.
16 The third document I've given you is a
17 proposed rule of Texas Register, 21 July of 2000, Page
18 6939. And you notice I've underlined, or shown you in
19 yellow, you are going to repeal 65.180, which is the
20 endangered species list. It's prohibited by law.
21 What you are going to do is what you see
22 on the next page, starting with 65.171. That's Page
23 6940. That's what -- That's what you're going to wind
24 up, the vestige of what you have after you do this.
25 You'll do it because -- You're going to do it because I
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1 tell you can't do it; it's against the law; you'll do
2 it. Go ahead. Go ahead. Repeal it. But you're
3 violating Texas state law. Well, I don't think it
4 makes any difference. Repeal it, because I don't think
5 you have a concern. There might be one or two of you
6 that have a concern about endangered species, but
7 there's no consensus of that, and you don't care
8 whether you eliminate the law or not. You've never,
9 never provided to the Secretary of Texas the endangered
10 species, which is, again, a statutory requirement by
11 law, the Parks and Wildlife Code, to provide a list to
12 the Secretary of State. I've brought that to your
13 attention numerous times, and it's never been provided,
14 and I can't afford to go -- to hire a staff of lawyers
15 to bring it out. Thank you.
16 CHAIRMAN BASS: John Grant, please.
17 MR. GRANT: Mr. Chairman, member of the
18 Commission, my name is John Grant. I'm the general
19 manager of the Colorado River Municipal Water District.
20 I'm here today to support the removal of
21 the Concho water snake from the state's list of
22 threatened species, in accordance with the staff
23 recommendations, and also the recommendations of other
24 consultants that have knowledge of this species.
25 The snake, this species, was listed in
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1 the late 1970s. Subsequent to that, the district
2 applied for and eventually received permits to
3 construct the Stacy Reservoir, now the Ivie Reservoir.
4 In part of those permits, to get the Federal 404
5 permit, we had to go through a 10-year monitoring
6 program to gather data and also analyze that data and
7 do several things in terms of mitigation for the snake.
8 The results of that data clearly indicate that there's
9 sufficient information to show that the snake is a very
10 good candidate and should be delisted, and I'm here to
11 ask your positive consideration for that delisting.
12 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, Mr. Grant.
13 Rick Van Dyke, please.
14 MR. VAN DYKE: I found out why everybody
15 wears long pants. It's freezing in here.
16 I'm here to talk about the Cagle's Map
17 turtle, and to put a face with it --
18 MR. SANSOM: Sorry, sir. Could you
19 bring that over here, please. Thank you.
20 MR. VAN DYKE: I'd like to pass it
21 around to you.
22 MR. SANSOM: Thank you very much.
23 MR. VAN DYKE: My name is Rick Van Dyke.
24 I'm president of the Central Texas Herp Society here in
25 Austin. I'm on the non-game advisory board. I've been
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1 working with John Herron on that board for the last
2 couple of years. I'm also an elementary school teacher
3 here in town, in the Eanes ISD. I wanted to speak to
4 you about the proposal for listing of the Cagle's Map
5 turtle.
6 I started looking for this turtle about
7 18 years ago. I spent a lot of weekends on the
8 Guadalupe River. It took me about four and a half
9 years to even see my first one. What I found is that
10 it's almost gone in the river. And we've talked with
11 different researchers. Nobody's really sure why.
12 There's a lot of ideas.
13 I have all along recommended some kind
14 of protection, and my recommendations were to put bag
15 limits on, like fishing and hunting, even size limits.
16 Researchers say that over 90 percent of baby turtles
17 get eaten by raccoons.
18 I was told that the state wouldn't
19 protect it because there were plans to build dams in
20 where the turtle still exists. It wasn't until one
21 individual got in there and started collecting these
22 turtles by the hundreds or more that the state decided
23 to act. Their solution is to just shut it down. I
24 believe, from what I understand, by the insistance of
25 law enforcement, this is the easiest solution. They're
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1 asking you to make it illegal to collect, possess,
2 move, and then to propagate this animal.
3 I started years ago collecting some each
4 year, mostly babies, raising them up. They've been
5 maturing, and they started reproducing. As far as I
6 know, I may have the only breeding colony of these
7 turtles in the state. I am working with a Fort Worth
8 zoo to set up a captive breeding group. I believe they
9 may be the only zoo to do that so far, or to show
10 interest in it. I believe captive breeding needs to be
11 part of any species preservation program. This is
12 where we can find out what they need, their
13 requirements, and it also provides a backup in the case
14 of a chemical spill in the river, or disease, infection
15 wiping out what's left in the mild. But this proposal,
16 the way it is, it will make it illegal for me to have
17 babies next year.
18 My colony, I've been told, will be
19 grandfathered, but it will be illegal for them to
20 breed. I'm not quite sure how I'm going to handle that
21 yes, if I'm going to -- I don't think having a little
22 chat with them will do quite the trick, so I'll
23 probably have to put them in different ponds.
24 I think this is the easiest solution for
25 Texas Parks and Wildlife, but I don't think it's the
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1 right solution. Please don't let this proposal pass
2 the way it is, without making the right decisions for
3 this species. Thank you.
4 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, Mr. Van Dyke.
5 Are those adults or babies?
6 MR. VAN DYKE: These are babies.
7 CHAIRMAN BASS: How big is an adult?
8 MR. VAN DYKE: Males get about four
9 inches, and females get about six or seven inches -- at
10 the most eight.
11 CHAIRMAN BASS: Mr. Herron, would you
12 please first address Mr. Gilleland's comments.
13 MR. HERRON: Yes, sir. If I understand
14 Mr. Gilleland's comments, he's concerned that we're
15 proposing to rescind the regulation that contains the
16 endangered species list, and the way -- I haven't seen
17 exactly what you've been given there, but as I recall
18 the language of statute, it specifically states that we
19 do have to have a list of endangered species, but that
20 that list is established by executive order, not by
21 regulation. And so we have done that. I'm not too
22 sure where the confusion is about whether we have file
23 anything with the Secretary of State or not. I believe
24 we have and do have a list of endangered species on
25 file with the Secretary of State's office. And,
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1 basically, we're proposing, as part of this listing, to
2 make those changes and file a new list with them.
3 So there still will be a list of
4 endangered species, but the way statute reads, it's not
5 a regulatory item; it's something that's done by
6 executive order; therefore, it's redundant having it in
7 regulation.
8 CHAIRMAN BASS: And would you address
9 Mr. Van Dyke's comments.
10 MR. HERRON: Yeah. Rick, certainly --
11 as he said, we've discussed this long and hard, and
12 there's been quite a bit of discussion about the
13 propagation and sale issue. And I think that a lot of
14 what he's talking about -- I think the issue at hand
15 is -- is -- really involves hobbyists. There's
16 certainly a place for hobbyists in the recovery and the
17 management of these species, but what we're really
18 trying to prevent here is the propagation and sale of
19 these species as pets. I mean, this is a threatened or
20 endangered species, and it's the -- these represent the
21 rarest and most protected species we have in the state.
22 The question is how appropriate is it to allow them to
23 be bred and sold as pets? We're restricting land
24 owners and others from harming them.
25 This regulation, as Rick stated, would
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1 allow him to continue to possess these animals by
2 providing the proof required, but he would not be able
3 to breed or sell them. However, that type of activity
4 can be allowed under a scientific permit or,
5 specifically in the case of Mr. Van Dyke, I think it
6 would be allowable under a educational permit as well
7 since he is a school teacher. So we think there are
8 other methods that we have and other means we have in
9 place that would allow the breeding of these species
10 for recovery and conservation purposes, but, as I said,
11 our recommendation is that we not allow them to be in
12 the pet trade.
13 CHAIRMAN BASS: You seem to link the
14 terms breed and sell, and they're actually -- I mean,
15 they're obviously separate actions, and is there a
16 problem to allow breeding if sale is still prohibited,
17 for a person like Mr. Van Dyke, other than having to go
18 through --
19 MR. HERRON: The way the regulation
20 reads now, even if we did change it to allow
21 propagation, we're still prohibiting sale, we're still
22 prohibiting release into the wild, I think our concern
23 has been if we're allowing people to breed these
24 animals, well, what are they going to do with them?
25 They're -- You just don't keep them until you have a
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1 million Cagle's map turtles in your backyard, or
2 whatever the example is.
3 Plus, the enforcement concern, that if
4 we're prohibiting people from taking them in the wild,
5 how do we assure that's not happening? We were
6 allowing someone to say, "Well, I bred these. I didn't
7 take them from the wild."
8 But, certainly, if the Commission
9 desired, there might some other things we can do. We
10 did discuss the option of allowing propagation but
11 stepping up the paperwork requirement, that they have
12 to have their paperwork on file with the department.
13 What we want to do is assure that the
14 propagation does not allow a loophole that would allow
15 animals to be taken out of the wild.
16 CHAIRMAN BASS: Can I ask Mr. Van Dyke a
17 question, please, in terms of Mr. Herron stated that,
18 either under an educational permit, which, as a
19 teacher, you could most likely, qualify for, or a
20 scientific permit, that you would be allowed to let
21 your turtles cohabitate in the future? Is that
22 something that's a solution to your concerns?
23 MR. VAN DYKE: Well, that was a solution
24 that I just brought up just recently, and I've talked
25 with them today about. I was told before that I
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1 probably would not qualify for a scientific permit, so
2 this is, I think, just a new answer. Actually, a new
3 answer either today or a recent answer. I don't know.
4 MR. HERRON: Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry
5 because I also missed the question. Is there anything
6 I can answer? And, basically, as I said, yeah, we --
7 as Mr. Van Dyke is saying, if he were going to do this
8 under a scientific permit -- basically it would be in
9 cooperation with a scientist, as he said, the Dallas
10 Zoo, the Fort Worth Zoo, what have you. He would be
11 able to do that in cooperation.
12 I think the key of the scientific and
13 educational provisions we have is that there's records
14 that are required to be kept there, and, currently,
15 we're trying to liberalize this as much as we can to
16 allow possession, and the recordkeeping is really the
17 key.
18 As I said, I think we have provisions
19 that would allow selected individuals to do this, not
20 as a hobby, but as a conservation measure, they could
21 do it under one of our other permits.
22 MR. VAN DYKE: I think the concern about
23 the loophole, closing the loophole, it really doesn't
24 close the loophole. People still can come from out of
25 state and collect this turtle and take it can back.
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1 Only the residents of Texas will not be able to have
2 this turtle, or allowed to propagate. Everybody
3 everywhere else will be allowed to breed it.
4 So as far as closing the loophole, it
5 doesn't keep people from illegally coming from out of
6 state and collecting them. So I don't understand the
7 concern that, you know, they're trying to close the
8 loophole. Nobody has been able to explain that to me.
9 CHAIRMAN BASS: Mr. Herron, is that
10 accurate, that people from out of state can legally
11 collect them and take them out of state?
12 MR. VAN DYKE: Illegally.
13 CHAIRMAN BASS: Oh, illegally. I'm
14 sorry. I misunderstood you.
15 MR. HERRON: They would not be able to
16 come into the state to collect it. If they came here
17 and were found to be collecting it from the wild, they
18 would be in violation of this regulation.
19 CHAIRMAN BASS: Right. Okay.
20 MR. HERRON: I think what Mr. Van Dyke
21 is talking about is that somebody in Oklahoma already
22 has one. Yes. But then as soon as they came to the
23 state, they'd have to prove legal acquisition.
24 CHAIRMAN BASS: Right, but that's
25 Oklahoma.
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1 MR. VAN DYKE: My point was once they
2 get back home to Oklahoma, then there's no restrictions
3 on them.
4 CHAIRMAN BASS: Are there any other
5 comments?
6 I guess my only comment is I think --
7 Mr. Herron, I'd urge to you consider -- to continue --
8 excuse me -- working on ways to allow seemingly
9 concerned, legitimate citizen that are involved in
10 endangered species, to continue working with them and
11 make it as easy as possible for them to -- when their
12 intentions are good, and they're not abusive of the
13 resources, and, you know, try to walk the fine line
14 between keeping the commercial exploitation at bay,
15 while allowing legitimate people that are enthusiasts
16 from doing things that might well be helpful in the
17 long run, from a conservation point of view.
18 MR. HERRON: Yes, sir.
19 CHAIRMAN BASS: Keep trying to refine
20 that.
21 MR. HERRON: We'll do that. And,
22 clearly, we're in contact with Mr. Van Dyke and we're
23 working with him. He been in contact with our
24 permitting folks, and we'll see what we can work out
25 with him, with the other means we have available. I
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1 think we can. As you're hearing, you know, clearly, we
2 have one or two individuals that are involved in this,
3 and I think that makes it all the much easier for us to
4 work with them one on one.
5 CHAIRMAN BASS: Great. Thank you.
6 Any other comments?
7 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: I move approval of
8 the recommendation.
9 CHAIRMAN BASS: Motion.
10 COMMISSIONER AVILA: Second.
11 CHAIRMAN BASS: All in favor? Any
12 opposed?
13 Motion carries. Thank you.
14 "The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission adopts the
15 repeal of 31 TAC SS65.171-65.174; new SS65.171-65.176;
16 the repeal of S65.180 and S65.181, and the amendment to
17 S69.8, concerning Threatened and Endangered Nongame
18 Species, and Endangered, Threatened, and Protected
19 Native Plants, with changes to the proposed text as
20 published in the July 21, 2000 issue of the Texas
21 Register (25 TexReg 6939)."
22 AGENDA ITEMS NO. 8: ACTION - TRAP, TRANSPORT, AND
23 TRANSPLANT
24 Dr. Cooke: Trap, Transport, and
25 Transplant.
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1 DR. COOKE: Because we discussed this --
2 I'm sorry. I'm Jerry Cooke, program director for
3 Upland Wildlife Ecology, presenting the proposed
4 changes to the Trap, Transport, and Transplant
5 proposal.
6 We went over this in pretty good detail
7 yesterday, but, briefly, the proposal -- proposed
8 changes would involve some housekeeping, some
9 sunsetting of the regulations, removing redundancy,
10 simplifying, editing; defining permitee as anyone who
11 is conducting permanent activities under a permit, and
12 identifying the supervisory permittee as that
13 individual to whom the permit was originally issued.
14 Also, correcting the language that was
15 posted in the Texas Register as to the dates in which a
16 45-day approval or disapproval or review would be
17 guaranteed. The correct date should have been
18 September 1 through November 15th.
19 Clarifying that all release sites will
20 have to have an approved wildlife management plan,
21 identifying as a minimum impact release for deer as
22 being one in which less than a deer to 200 acres are
23 released on a particular sites, and under those
24 circumstances, an inspection of the property would not
25 be required by our regulation.
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1 Also, between October 1 and February 1,
2 any buck deer moved under this permit would have to
3 have its antlers removed unless it was moved between
4 tracts owned by a same individual, and these tracts
5 should be contiguous, separated by a road, separated by
6 a river, stream, fence, those kinds of things, in which
7 case, the antlers would not have to be removed.
8 Correcting the -- or changing the
9 notification requirement: For each instance of any
10 permanent activities, department would have to be
11 notified between 24 and 48 hours of each instance, and
12 this should apply to game animals and game birds, not
13 just deer.
14 Also, changes in recordkeeping would
15 require a daily log to be maintained for inspection.
16 Part of this daily log would include a financial
17 disclosure, signed by, both, the trap site, the release
18 site, and the trapper. This could be done by receipt;
19 wouldn't have to necessarily be a formal part of the
20 report, just attached to the report, for simplification
21 of those who would be involved.
22 Also, similar to the Scientific Breeders
23 Program, we would propose a change that would require
24 trailers, trucks, boxes, et cetera, in which deer are
25 possessed to be marked clearly on the rear, with "TTT"
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1 in six-inch letters -- I remember this time --
2 readable, different color from the background.
3 Also, animals that are inadvertently
4 killed during any of these permit activities must be
5 maintained in an edible condition, donated to the needy
6 or a charitable institution, receipts included as part
7 of the annual report, and, also, any animals that might
8 be inadvertently killed would be counted against the
9 number that the permit would allow to be taken from the
10 wild.
11 The proposed amendment is as it reads.
12 The regulation -- It should be the Commission -- adopts
13 amendments to 31 TAC, 65.101, 103, 105, 111, 115, and
14 117, new 116 concerning permits to trap, transport,
15 transplant game animals and game birds, with changes to
16 proposed text as it appeared in the Texas Register.
17 If you have any questions, I'll be happy
18 to answer them at this time.
19 CHAIRMAN BASS: Some public comment if
20 people had the tenacity to hang on and wait this late
21 in the day? Jerry Johnston was signed up. I don't
22 know see him in the audience.
23 AUDIENCE MEMBER: He had to go back to
24 San Antonio.
25 CHAIRMAN BASS: I understand.
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1 Marty Berry?
2 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Same.
3 CHAIRMAN BASS: All right.
4 Joe McCullough, if you'd like to -- Since you seem to
5 know where everyone is, you get to come -- you get to
6 be the first to speak.
7 David Langford, you can speak after
8 Mr. McCullough.
9 MR. McCULLOUGH: Commisioner, ladies and
10 gentlemen of the Commission, I'm Joe McCullough. I'm
11 executive director for the Texas Deer Association. I
12 have been asked by our membership to comment on the
13 proposed changes and to TTT regulations.
14 We are in general agreement with these
15 changes, derived, in part, through our representation
16 on the Chairman's blue ribbon committee. We feel that
17 these changes are an excellent beginning. Yet, we also
18 feel that the next year will provide a true test of
19 their effectiveness.
20 We look forward to working with you next
21 year and reevaluating and fine-tuning the regulations
22 to produce a system we all can work with. And we want
23 to thank you as an association for the hard work that
24 you've done. Thank you.
25 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, sir.
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1 Mr. Langford. And, Mr. Gilleland, if
2 you'd be prepared to speak after Mr. Langford.
3 MR. LANGFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman,
4 members of the Commission, staff. I'm David Langford,
5 Texas Wildlife Association, and we also support the
6 staff recommendation.
7 I also thank Mr. Sansom for picking that
8 committee, and also for keeping it together. A lot of
9 times, there are unattended consequences, and want to
10 be able to address them if they come.
11 Also, I don't think there's any of the
12 shrimp industry, but this permit is a perfect example
13 of some of the things that Mr. Avila and Mr. Angelo and
14 Mr. Chairman, that you talked about, because these were
15 some regulations that were not working exactly right,
16 and the group came together, along with the Commission
17 and the staff, and fixed it so that they would work
18 better. And part of the discussion about revisiting
19 those issues with the shrimp industry, here's proof
20 that this department does respond and is willing to go
21 back, on regulations, and change them so that they work
22 properly.
23 And I'd like to close with a -- by
24 asking you-all to remember I was interested in the give
25 and take there about the propagation of the Cagle's map
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1 turtle and the -- and how that would work, and I want
2 to make sure that everybody remembers in that -- as you
3 proceed in that arena, that revenue -- four words:
4 Revenue makes conservation sustainable. So keep in
5 mind profit motive is not always bad. Thank you.
6 CHAIRMAN BASS: Mr. Gilleland.
7 Thank you, Mr. Langford.
8 MR. GILLELAND: My name is Ellis
9 Gilleland. I'm representing Texas Animals, an animal
10 rights organization on the internet.
11 I'm speaking in regard to the
12 publication in the Texas Register. It was published on
13 the 28th of July of this year. The first item I'd like
14 to mention in the proposed changes is that I do not
15 agree that where you eliminate the need to notify the
16 local game warden 24 hours prior to the transport. I
17 think the local game warden should know.
18 The second thing I object to and I think
19 should be changed is, is on the squirrel trapping,
20 Nuisance Squirrel. I think that these traps should be
21 specified in here as walk-in traps, because down in
22 Subparagraph 5, you say the trapped squirrels must be
23 released in 24 hours. If you allow people to use their
24 discretion, they'll be using steel jaw traps on them,
25 and they're going to be releasing squirrels with
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1 mangled legs. So I'd like to see you put in that the
2 traps should be walk-in traps if they are, in fact, to
3 allow the animals to be released later.
4 And the most damning in this release is
5 the fact that you make no provision anywhere in your
6 new rule for precluding the death of deer, such as
7 died, and that transferred to East Texas and Wildlife
8 where about a dozen died in the trailer, waiting for a
9 man to show up, for some ungodly reason that he had to
10 show up before they could let the deer out of the
11 trailer, so the deer suffocated in the heat. That is
12 inane and stupid. Please write something in here to
13 preclude this recurrence of deer sitting in a trailer,
14 and are crammed in like -- as you know, like sardines.
15 The other thing I've provided with you
16 is a -- the Lakeway situation, where the deer permits
17 are not being issued. LCRA is not being given permits.
18 So what good is all this TTT business you-all are doing
19 if you're not going to give anybody permits?
20 "Parks and Wildlife will not give us
21 permits -- quote, "will not give us permits for
22 relocating the deer." Last year alone, they relocated
23 650. Then for some reason or other, you cut it off.
24 The other thing I'd like to mention here
25 is that the Lakeway thing -- I'd like to ask you to
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1 start a program, experimental, however you want to call
2 it, to test this program of immunocontraception, and I
3 think Lakeway would be a good place to start it and
4 test it.
5 So I'm basically asking you to make
6 those changes to the rule. I'm not opposed -- As you
7 see, I'm not opposed to transporting deer; just some
8 changes we can make to it to make it better. Thank
9 you.
10 CHAIRMAN BASS: Mr. Cooke, it's my
11 understanding the regulation does still call for the
12 notification of the local game warden?
13 DR. COOKE: Yes, sir, 24 to 48 hours
14 before each instance of any permitted activity.
15 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you.
16 Are there any other questions, comments?
17 Chair would entertain a motion.
18 COMMISSIONER WATSON: So moved.
19 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Second.
20 CHAIRMAN BASS: Motion and a second.
21 All in favor? Any opposed?
22 Motion carries. Thank you.
23 "The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission adopts
24 amendments to 31 TAC SS65.101, 65.103, 65.105, 65.111,
25 65.117, and new S65.116 concerning Permits to Trap,
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1 Transport, and Transplant Game Animals and Game Birds,
2 with changes to the proposed text (Located at Exhibit
3 A) as published in the April 28, 2000, issue of the
4 Texas Register (25 TexReg 3700)."
5 AGENDA ITEM NO. 9: BRIEFING - 2000-2001 STATEWIDE
6 HUNTING FORECAST
7 Dr. Graham, would you give us a brief
8 briefing on what we can expect starting tomorrow in our
9 state's hunting season?
10 (WHEREUPON, a briefing item was
11 presented to the Commission, after
12 which the following proceedings were
13 had:)
14 AGENDA ITEM NO. 10: ACTION - MIGRATORY GAME BIRD
15 PROCLAMATION - LATE SEASON
16 All right. Vernon Bevill: Late
17 Migratory Game Birds.
18 MR. BEVILL: Mr. Chairman, my name is
19 Vernon Bevill. I'm program director for Migratory
20 Wildlife, and I promise to give you a brief briefing.
21 There are very few changes this year in
22 waterfowl regulations from last year, and I'll just
23 highlight the changes.
24 We've had three significant changes, I
25 think. Two relate to the light goose conservation
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1 order and how we would have to implement it in Texas
2 with regard to season lengths. And light geese and
3 dark geese and early closure of Sandhill Crane.
4 The Fish and Wildlife Service offered a
5 second youth day, which allows us to have a full
6 weekend of youth hunting during the duck season.
7 In the western goose zone, the season is
8 basically the same as last year. We considered a
9 possibility of establishing a central goose zone to
10 accommodate some current concerns revolving around the
11 light goose conservation order. After evaluating our
12 options, we felt that it's more appropriate to run the
13 goose season in the western zone completely through and
14 implements the light goose order the following day.
15 In the eastern goose zone, however, we
16 are able to this year, again, to have that light goose
17 conservation order in place this time, for the first
18 time, as a result of action of this Commission in
19 August.
20 So all three goose seasons will open on
21 the 28th of October and close on the 21st of January.
22 Bag limits are the same as last year.
23 Light goose conservation order, by it
24 being established in federal law now, allows us the
25 opportunity to set it at this time rather than during
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1 the fall, through emergency rule-making.
2 The light goose conservation order will
3 be implemented on February the 12th and January the
4 22nd in the western and eastern goose zones
5 respectively, and will close on April the 1st. The
6 other provisions are the same as they have been.
7 The light goose conservation order does
8 require us to close the Sandhill Crane season early, in
9 the Zone B and C, as we discussed yesterday at the
10 meeting. We do lose a significant part of the Zone C
11 season, which is only 37 days. The Zone B season is 72
12 days, so we don't lose nearly as much of it in the
13 course of things, but we hope that that situation can
14 be corrected when the environmental impact statement is
15 finalized by the Fish and Wildlife Service.
16 Duck seasons and bag limits are
17 basically the same as last year. The six-bird bag with
18 the same species limitations are in place. There are
19 separate bag limits for mergansers and coots.
20 For the duck season, the proposal in the
21 High Plains Mallard Management Unit is to have our
22 Youth Day on October the 14th and 15th of each weekend,
23 then follow that with the opener of that short segment
24 the following weekend, on the 21st October, and then
25 open the main segment on October the 28th and run it
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1 through January the 21st.
2 And in the north zone, we're proposing,
3 both, in the north and south zone, to have our Youth
4 Weekend the same weekend just prior to the opening the
5 regular duck season on October the 28th, with the south
6 zone having that one weekend split -- I mean, the north
7 zone have the one weekend, and then follow that by
8 reopening on November the 11th and running all the way
9 through.
10 In the south zone, the season is the
11 same as last year with the calendar split.
12 We get to the extended Falconry
13 opportunity, and, unfortunately, there is no
14 opportunity available to us in the High Plains Mallard
15 Management Unit because we are consuming all the
16 available hunting days with gun seasons; however, we're
17 only taking 76 gun days -- excuse me. Get my counting
18 right -- 91 gun days, I think, in the north and south
19 zone, so we do have some extended Falconry opportunity
20 and recommend that for the period from January the 22nd
21 through February the 6th, with a thee-bird daily bag.
22 Very little public comment this year.
23 Most of it revolved around the setting of the Youth
24 Hunt.
25 And, Mr. Chairman, the recommendation of
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1 staff is that the Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission
2 adopts amendments to 31 TAC 65.317, 65.318, 65.320, and
3 65.321, concerning Migratory Game Bird Proclamation,
4 with changes to the proposed text located in Exhibit A,
5 as published in the April 28, 2000, issue of the Texas
6 Register.
7 Be glad to answer any questions.
8 CHAIRMAN BASS: Questions?
9 Mr. Gilleland, would you like to come
10 forward and speak on this item.
11 And, Mr. Langford, you're welcome to
12 speak following Mr. Gilleland.
13 MR. GILLELAND: My name is Ellis
14 Gilleland. I would like to just make a couple of
15 comments about the snow geese. I do not believe that
16 killing something is conserving it. And just because
17 the federal government authorizes you to kill animals
18 under the name of conservation, because that's their
19 twisted logic, I don't see that you have to pick it up
20 also. If I suggested that you shoot yourself to
21 conserve yourself, you'd probably think I was crazy.
22 Well, shooting snow geese to the maximum possible, to
23 conserve them, it doesn't make sense. I would like to
24 suggest to you to refer to the testimony yesterday, in
25 a way you can do something positive and something
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1 that's coherent and makes sense.
2 We heard people talk yesterday about
3 hundreds of thousands of dollars being spent on
4 hyacinth that they -- as being completely snowed with
5 it. Well, that's what these birds need up in Canada.
6 Why not ship some of these that know how to raise
7 hyacinth in the Guadalupe River or wherever they're
8 doing it, ship them up to Canada and show them how to
9 raise hyacinth to feed them -- feed the animals.
10 Instead of conserving them by killing them, why not
11 just feed them?
12 And, secondly, better yet, instead of
13 shipping the people, just ship the hyacinth; that way,
14 you get rid of the hyacinth also and help the snow
15 geese in Canada. Thank you.
16 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you,
17 Mr. Gilleland. Mr. Langford, please.
18 MR. LANGFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman
19 and members of the Commission. I'm David Langford,
20 Texas Wildlife Association. We support the staff
21 recommendations completely, and particularly the part
22 that deals with the recruitment of youth, and also
23 especially with the light conservation goose order. I
24 guess there is something wrong with me because it makes
25 perfect sense to me. Thank you very much.
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1 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, Mr. Langford.
2 Any questions or comments?
3 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Move approval of
4 the recommendation.
5 COMMISSIONER WATSON: Second.
6 CHAIRMAN BASS: I have a motion and a
7 second.
8 All in favor? Any opposed?
9 Thank you, Vernon.
10 "The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission adopts
11 amendments to 31 TAC65.317, 65.318, 65.320, and 65.321,
12 concerning the Migratory Game Bird Proclamation, with
13 changes to the proposed text (located at Exhibit A) as
14 published in the April 28, 2000, issue of the Texas
15 Register (25 TexReg 3700)."
16 AGENDA ITEM NO. 11: BRIEFING - EXPO IX
17 Mr. Gammage, a briefing on Expo, please.
18 MR. SANSOM: Mr. Chairman, as
19 Mr. Gammage is coming up, I'd like to take this
20 opportunity to do something that I neglected to do this
21 morning and that is introduce you all to Scott Boruff,
22 who is the new director of Infrastructure, and I don't
23 think each of you have met.
24 If you could stand, Scott.
25 MR. BORUFF: Well, I met most of you.
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1 (WHEREUPON, a briefing item was
2 presented to the Commission, after
3 which the following proceedings were
4 had:)
5 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, Ernie.
6 AGENDA ITEM NO. 12: ACTION - FY01 OPERATING AND
7 CAPITAL BUDGETS AND TEXAS PARKS AND WILDLIFE INVESTMENT
8 POLICY
9 Next item is Operating and Capital
10 Budgets. How are we going to pay for all this stuff?
11 MS. WHITTENTON: I don't know.
12 I'll try to be -- I'll try to talk even
13 faster than I did yesterday.
14 For the record, my name is Suzy
15 Whittenton. I'm the agency's chief financial officer.
16 Today's presentation will briefly touch
17 on the following topics: I'll be asking for your
18 approval on the Fiscal Year 01 Budget, which will
19 include approval for the issuance of revenue bonds, the
20 budget policy, and, finally, the investment policy.
21 Our four major accounts represent 94
22 percent of the proposed budgets before you today.
23 We currently have authority to spend 26
24 million in General Revenue from a portion of the
25 unclaimed motorboat fuels tax refunds and from boat and
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1 motorboat sales and use taxes, in addition to other
2 undedicated general revenue.
3 Account 9: Game, Fish, and Water Safety,
4 holds fees from licenses, stamps, federal funds, boat
5 registration and titling, and it's estimated to be
6 approximately 121 million next fiscal year.
7 License sales have increased
8 significantly over the last 10 years but are also
9 leveling out within the last 4 years.
10 As of August 20th, license revenue is up
11 1.3 million for the year. Super combo sales and
12 revenue are both up 11 1/2 percent, with combo sales
13 and revenue down 9 percent. Overall, combination
14 license sales are up 1.2 percent, but the revenue is up
15 3.3 percent.
16 And, both, resident hunting and resident
17 fishing sales are down approximately 3 percent.
18 The new license sales began on August
19 the 7th this year, and as of August 23rd, the license
20 revenue is up 11 percent over revenue earned as of the
21 same date last year; however, we started selling
22 licenses 4 days earlier this year than we did last
23 year.
24 In Account 64: State Parks, this holds
25 revenue such as park entrance fees, sporting goods
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1 sales tax, conservation passport fees, and it's
2 estimated to total nearly 48 million next year.
3 Looking at the trend in park revenues,
4 these also have increased over the last 10 years but
5 look like they've begun to level out as well.
6 In comparing the period from September
7 through July, revenue in Account 64 is up $2 million,
8 or about 11 percent, from this same period last year.
9 Total estimated funds available, this
10 pie shows all sources of funds estimated to be
11 approximately $254 million for next year. Over half of
12 that revenue will flow through the Game, Fish, and
13 Water Safety account.
14 I mentioned to you yesterday that the
15 Fiscal Year O1 projections show that we'll have less
16 appropriation authority than we'll have cash available,
17 particularly in the State Parks account. So we have
18 budgeted to the appropriations level rather than to the
19 cash available level.
20 The total recommended budget is
21 comprised of the Operating Budget, the Capital Budget,
22 and the Grant Budget. We'll look at the Operating
23 Budget here first.
24 The recommended Operating Budget amount
25 total $187 million. This slide breaks down the amount
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1 requested by the type and compares it to the
2 recommended Operating Budget.
3 The Operating Budget from Account 64 in
4 Fund 1 total 66 million. These funds support the State
5 Parks operations as well as portions of the
6 administrative division, and its also includes the cost
7 of position reclassifications.
8 Fund 9: Game, Fish, and Water Safety,
9 will provide 119 million for the Operating Budget, and
10 this supports areas such as wildlife, law enforcement,
11 resource protection, inland coastal fisheries, as well
12 as a portion of the administration costs.
13 The Capital Budget includes the final 12
14 million from the revenue bonds, which will be the final
15 issue from the original 60-million-dollar bond package.
16 The total recommended Capital Budget totals 27 1/2
17 million.
18 The Grant Budget totals just over 30
19 million and includes funding for outreach programs for
20 underserved populations and for regional parks and park
21 partnerships.
22 In summary, the recommended total budget
23 for Fiscal Year 2001 is 245 million, and includes the
24 following: Highlights, which were discussed in pretty
25 much detail yesterday, so there's no need to go through
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1 those again.
2 The recommended budget will maintain the
3 ratios between salaries, operating, and equipment, even
4 with the reclassification costs factored in.
5 The number of positions included in this
6 budget totals 3,020, which is an increase of 23
7 positions. We've added positions for access to
8 wildlife management areas, regional biologists, habitat
9 review biologists, interpretive staff, and some for
10 outreach as well.
11 This slide shows the efficiency ratio
12 between the number of sites and the number of full-time
13 equivalents. You can see the ratio. We're doing more
14 with less.
15 This budget will continue to offer a
16 substantial benefit to our customers compared to the
17 fees that they pay to participate in these various
18 areas.
19 This final chart shows the type of
20 expenditures included in the 245-million-dollar budget,
21 with salaries taking up the bulk of that.
22 That's all I had for the Operating
23 Budget, but I will need to also get your approval on
24 investment policy.
25 Although the investment policy has not
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1 changed, it's required that you review and approve it
2 each year. It's required by the Public Funds
3 Investment Act. The policy applies to all Parks and
4 Wildlife funds, but not to foundation or operation game
5 thief funds.
6 The investment policy requires all funds
7 to be deposited into the State Treasury and invested by
8 the Comptroller unless they're approved by a delegated
9 investment officer.
10 Bank accounts must be insured up to
11 $100,000 under FDIC, and that for accounts in excess of
12 100,000, collateral must be obtained for the excess
13 amount.
14 Existing stock portfolio received in
15 1956 will be retained pursuant to the original donation
16 agreement. We'll do regular quarterly reports to you
17 on investments throughout the year.
18 And that's all I have.
19 Any questions?
20 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you.
21 And questions or comments? This is --
22 The budget has been poured over and worked up, worked
23 on by various subsets of the Commission, on occasion,
24 prior to this, and I think it's certainly not the first
25 time any of us have seen it.
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1 Comments or questions at this time?
2 COMMISSIONER HENRY: I've got a
3 question, Mr. Chairman. Do we need to approve the
4 minutes where we hear a budget meeting? I know we got
5 a copy of them today.
6 COMMISSIONER HEATH: Yes, we do. Those
7 minutes were distributed.
8 And, Mr. Chairman, I think, as a matter
9 of business, we do need to, so I'd ask for approval of
10 the minutes, and then I'd ask for a motion.
11 COMMISSIONER HENRY: Move for approval.
12 COMMISSIONER RYAN: Second.
13 COMMISSIONER HEATH: All in favor?
14 Thank you.
15 CHAIRMAN BASS: Other comments?
16 Chair would entertain a motion on the
17 budget.
18 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Move approval.
19 COMMISSIONER AVILA: Second.
20 CHAIRMAN BASS: Motion and a second.
21 All in favor? Any opposed?
22 We have a budget.
23 Thank you, Suzy.
24 COMMISSIONER HEATH: Suzy, thank you
25 very much, and thank you all the commissioners for your
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1 work and energy on the budget.
2 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you for your
3 leadership.
4 (Motion carries unanimously.)
5 "The Executive Director is authorized to expend funds
6 to operate the Parks and Wildlife Department in
7 accordance with the Proposed FY 2001 Operating Budget
8 (Exhibit A), the Proposed FY 2001 Capital Program
9 (Exhibit B), and the Proposed FY 2001 Grant Budget
10 (Exhibit C)."
11
12 "The Commission approves the issuance of up to
13 $12,685,000 in Revenue Bonds pursuant to the provisions
14 of Chapter 13 of the Parks and Wildlife Code. The
15 Executive Director is authorized and directed to
16 proceed with the necessary steps required to issue said
17 bonds including working with the Texas Public Finance
18 Authority and the Bond Review Board, and the Commission
19 approves the resolution (Exhibit E) authorizing this
20 issue and providing for the proper notice to bond
21 bidders."
22
23 "The Commission approves the investment and policy as
24 shown in Exhibit F."
25
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1 AGENDA ITEM NO. 13: ACTION - TPWD FACILITY TRANSFERS
2 CHAIRMAN BASS: Facility Transfers.
3 Walt, tell us about them.
4 MR. DABNEY: Good evening,
5 Commissioners. Walt Dabney, State Parks Director. I
6 wanted to bring you up to speed on House Bill 2108 and
7 our efforts this first year, of a two-year opportunity,
8 with $4 million in grant money available to us to
9 effect possible transfers in locations where it makes
10 mutual sense to, both, the Parks and Wildlife and the
11 local entity to take over the management of a given
12 area.
13 We have three of those today to share
14 with you for approval. And all three of those, and
15 then one that does not fit exactly in 2108. We have
16 signed agreements with the local entities to effect
17 this transfer.
18 The first -- The first of these facility
19 transfers is Lubbock Lake Landmark, located in the
20 Lubbock area. It's a 336-acre tract. Many of you --
21 or some of you have seen this place. Great historical
22 and prehistoric significance, paleo significance as
23 well.
24 This facility would be transferred to
25 Texas Tech University. We're already in a partnership
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1 with Texas Tech who operates the museum, does many of
2 the functions there now. We are down to one employee
3 at Lubbock Lake Landmark.
4 The agreement would be that over the
5 next two years, we would transfer -- immediately we
6 would transfer to Tech $682,608; 132,000 of that is to
7 fix up the facilities, and then the $550,000, over two
8 years, is transitional operation costs to move the
9 operation of the facility from us to them. So the
10 grant, again, grant money, for them, would be a total
11 of $682,000.
12 We would move our existing employee --
13 None of our employees would lose their jobs. We have a
14 place for that employee at Lubbock now, and we would
15 simply transfer him into another function.
16 The second location is Jim Hogg site,
17 over in Rusk. It's 178-acre site in town. It's a
18 replica. In fact, it's a three-quarter size replica of
19 Governor Hogg's birthplace.
20 The City of Rusk would receive the deed
21 to this. The agreement would be a grant of $160,400,
22 and that is all for repairs and improvements to the
23 site.
24 The third site is Old Fort Parker State
25 Historical Park. It is currently being operated now by
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1 the City of Groesbeck.
2 This agreement would transfer
3 officially -- We contribute on an annual basis to that
4 operation now. This would, in fact, transfer to the
5 cities of Groesbeck, Mexia in Limestone County, the
6 permanent operation, maintenance, and ownership of this
7 facility.
8 The grant of $550,000 for Old Fort
9 Parker is for repairs and recreational facilities to go
10 in there so that it is up full online and in good
11 condition, one that they can operate and maintain and
12 generate revenue from.
13 The fourth place that we want to talk
14 about is Grand Saline. This is not a 2108 transfer,
15 and we do not own this site, but for many years, due to
16 instruction from the legislature, we have, in fact,
17 contributed about $12,500 a year to this site, to the
18 City of Grand Saline, to operate the Salt Palace.
19 What this will do, for $38,000, is
20 terminate that agreement and let them fix up this site,
21 and that money is not coming out of the grant money;
22 it's actually coming out of Park Fund 64 money. That
23 would terminate and finalize the agreement. They've
24 agreed to do that and have signed the agreement.
25 So your approval for the recommendation
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1 as shown here, which would transfer these three sites,
2 let us finish the agreements, which would be real
3 estate transactions and that kind of thing, transfer
4 these sites in total, permanently, to these cities as
5 described, cities and counties. And the second part of
6 that would be to transfer $38,000 to the City of Grand
7 Saline to terminate our financial obligation there from
8 now on.
9 So we have three sites to transfer,
10 which would bring State Park numbers from 122 to 119,
11 and get us out of the Grand Saline support.
12 I think we have somebody that wants to
13 speak.
14 CHAIRMAN BASS: Yes, Sarah McReynolds
15 from Old Fort Parker.
16 Have you been here all day?
17 MS. McREYNOLDS: Yes, I have, and we
18 only have two turtles at Old Fort Parker, and we try
19 constantly to keep the Boy Scouts from drowning them.
20 I am the sole --
21 CHAIRMAN BASS: I appreciate your
22 patience.
23 MS. McREYNOLDS: Thank you. This is
24 very important to me. I am the only full-time employee
25 at Fort Parker. They have me listed as the manager;
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1 I'm everything. And if this proposal is accepted, this
2 is very important to our community because this is
3 going -- it's taken quite a lot of work on my part to
4 get two cities and a county to agree to take on this
5 proposal. It's at lot of officials, a lot of egos, and
6 it's been a lot of work, but they're all very excited.
7 And I want you to know if this proposal is granted
8 today, this is just the beginning of what I have
9 planned for our area.
10 The seed money, if awarded, will
11 begin -- will be the beginning of a better way of life
12 for the fourth poorest county in the state of Texas:
13 Limestone County.
14 Plans are, within the next three years,
15 to develop an outdoor drama to depict this important
16 historical event that happened in Texas history.
17 Feasibility studies have been done.
18 Land has been purchased adjacent to the Fort, and
19 construction has begun on a visitors center and museum
20 that will stress Comanche artifacts thanks to an EDA
21 grant and local entity loans.
22 This whole project has been cited by the
23 president of the United States as the fifth most unique
24 and worthwhile project for an economically deprived
25 area. And I would like very much for Texas Parks and
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1 Wildlife to remain on this project in an advisatory
2 position, and be part of this exciting worthwhile
3 endeavor. Thank you.
4 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you. And kudos
5 for your hard work in getting things to this point.
6 Comments or questions?
7 COMMISSIONER HENRY: Mr. Chairman?
8 CHAIRMAN BASS: Yes, sir.
9 COMMISSIONER HENRY: Walt, on the Grand
10 Saline project, it's stated here that operating funds
11 have been applied at the direction of the Texas
12 legislature. Will there be any disconnect required
13 with the legislature, and how do you plan to handle
14 that, if it's a problem?
15 MR. DABNEY: It isn't, sir. We have
16 been in contact with the local representatives and
17 senator there. They were not initially supportive of
18 this until the city itself passed a resolution and
19 requested us to take this step. This is what we wanted
20 to do, and so I think we're good all the way around
21 now, sir.
22 COMMISSIONER HENRY: Okay. Thank you.
23 CHAIRMAN BASS: Chair would entertain a
24 motion.
25 COMMISSIONER WATSON: So moved.
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1 VICE-CHAIR DINKINS: Second.
2 CHAIRMAN BASS: Motion and a second.
3 All in favor? Any opposed?
4 None. Thank you very much.
5 (Motion carries unanimously.)
6 "The Executive Director is authorized to execute the
7 necessary agreements to effect the transfer of the
8 three Department facilities for ownership and
9 operations as shown in Exhibit A. The Executive
10 Director is authorized to execute grant agreements
11 using funds from the Texas Recreation and Park Account
12 as shown in Exhibit A to effect the orderly transfer of
13 these sites. The Executive Director is authorized to
14 make payment in the amount of $38,000 to the City of
15 Grand Saline to end the Department's financial
16 obligation to the Grand Saline Salt Palace."
17 AGENDA ITEM NO. 15: ACTION - LAND ACQUISITION -
18 BREWESTER COUNTY
19 CHAIRMAN BASS: 15, 16, and 17 is Jack
20 Bauer. I believe, on 17, there is public comment.
21 MR. BAUER: Yes.
22 My name is Jack Bauer with the Land
23 Conservation Program.
24 In summary, from the executive session
25 yesterday, staff is recommending the addition of 1890
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1 acres at the Black Gap. This is for Bighorn Sheep
2 habitat and holding improvement at the facility.
3 Staff would be recommending the motion
4 in front of you for approval. Any questions?
5 CHAIRMAN BASS: Questions?
6 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Move approval of
7 the recommendation.
8 CHAIRMAN BASS: Motion.
9 COMMISSIONER WATSON: Second.
10 CHAIRMAN BASS: And a second.
11 All in favor? Any opposed?
12 Thank you.
13 (Motion carries unanimously.)
14 "The Executive Director is authorized to take all
15 necessary steps to consummate the acquisition of
16 approximately 1890 acres in Brewster County as an
17 addition to Black Gap Wildlife Management Area."
18 AGENDA ITEM NO. 16: ACTION - LAND ACQUISITION -
19 ANDERSON COUNTY
20 CHAIRMAN BASS: Sixteen, Anderson
21 County.
22 MR. BAUER: Also for your conversation
23 is a habitat improvement of 147 acres at Big Lake
24 Bottom in Anderson County. Funding for this project
25 would be non-TPWD funds from Fort Worth Corps of
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1 Engineer Mitigation. It would also have a habitat
2 improvement component, and staff is again recommending
3 the motion before you.
4 I'll be happen to entertain any
5 questions.
6 COMMISSIONER RYAN: Motion for approval.
7 CHAIRMAN BASS: We have a motion with
8 Mr. Ryan.
9 COMMISSIONER HEATH: Second.
10 CHAIRMAN BASS: Second from Mr. Heath.
11 All in favor?
12 (Motion carries unanimously.)
13 "The Executive Director is authorized to take all steps
14 necessary to acquire approximately 147 acres in
15 Anderson County as an addition to the Big Lake Bottom
16 Wildlife Management Area."
17 AGENDA ITEM NO. 17: ACTION - PROPERTY PARTITION -
18 ANDERSON COUNTY (BIG LAKE BOTTOM WMA)
19 CHAIRMAN BASS: Number 17, the Anderson
20 County (Big Lake Bottom WMA).
21 MR. BAUER: Big Lake Bottom consists of
22 approximately 5,000 acres of bottomland hardwood
23 habitat on the Trinity River in Anderson County.
24 TPWD ownership on portions of the
25 facility are shared with 35 other co-owners. Effective
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1 management of the entire facility, for the benefit of
2 natural resources, remains difficult because of this
3 ownership relationship.
4 The Commission approved the purchase of
5 undivided interest from willing co-owners in June of
6 1999 to help alleviate the problem. Offers were made
7 to co-owners, with no party accepting our offer.
8 As part of our strategy to resolve
9 management conflicts, a landowner meeting was held in
10 June of this year, in Palestine. Alternatives for
11 ownership and management arrangements were discussed
12 and voted upon by the attending co-owners. The
13 majority of the co-owners recommended partitioning of
14 the real estate interests of the owners.
15 It's the opinion of staff that the only
16 practical solution that will ensure a reasonable level
17 of control and the management of the facility, for the
18 benefit of the occurring resources and the public, is
19 to attain full ownership of our share of our interests;
20 therefore, staff recommends the Commission consider the
21 motion requesting the Office of the Attorney General to
22 initiate the procedural steps for partitioning of
23 property ownership.
24 Staff recommends the Parks and Wildlife
25 Commission accept the following -- adopt the following
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1 motion: The executive director is authorized to
2 request the Office of the Attorney General to initiate
3 partition of the remaining undivided interest ownership
4 in three tracts of real property at Big Lake Bottom
5 Wildlife Management Area as governed by Chapter 23 of
6 the Texas Property Code.
7 Any questions?
8 CHAIRMAN BASS: James and Patricia
9 Manuel?
10 You get the trooper award for --
11 MR. MANUEL: I'm James Manuel. I live
12 in Big Lake Bottom. I'd like to address you-all on the
13 partition of the Big Lake Bottom.
14 Ladies and gentlemen of the Commission,
15 we are here today to let our position be known in the
16 matter of the Big Lake Bottom partition.
17 We own a little over 153 acres in the
18 Bottom, 150 acres being in the upper Jefferson Adams'
19 survey, and the other acreage in the other two surveys
20 in question.
21 We would like for this property to be
22 partitioned, and here are some reasons.
23 The property is being exploited by the
24 owners of small acreages. These landowners are leasing
25 the bottomland for hunting. This has resulted in an
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1 overcrowded and overhunted dangerous situation.
2 Myself, my family, and friends are unable to enjoy our
3 property because of this large amount of people hunting
4 the different seasons in the Bottom.
5 The quality and quantity of the game in
6 the Bottom appears to be in a decline due to
7 overhunting. The game wardens are unable to control
8 the area due to the large amount of people and the
9 absence of boundary lines.
10 Damage to the habitat due to numerous
11 ATVs constantly running through the Bottom is
12 detrimental to the natural state.
13 The past month, the landowner of less
14 than 10 acres total has taken a bulldozer through
15 several tracts in order to move two fairly large junk
16 trailers deep into the bottomland.
17 Numerous large trees were uprooted,
18 habitats destroyed, and a bulldozer path of destruction
19 could be followed for several miles.
20 If this type of abuse to the River
21 Bottom is allowed to continue, we are afraid that more
22 and more destruction will follow, and, eventually, the
23 delicate ecosystem of the natural river bottom will be
24 completely destroyed.
25 If this property is partitioned as soon
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1 as possible, the damage that has already occurred may
2 still be repaired through nature's own course.
3 The Department of Parks and Wildlife and
4 the private landowners will able to be control what
5 takes place in the bottomland and take proper measures
6 to protect it.
7 Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for
8 your attention and time, and I'd like to enter this
9 letter into your records.
10 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you very much. We
11 appreciate you coming, appreciate your comments, and I
12 think everyone on this Commission shares your concern
13 and, frankly, disgust at some of the destruction that a
14 small landowner -- small interest owner undertook --
15 MR. MANUEL: A partition you will help
16 this. I believe it's the only course to take. That
17 way, it can be protected.
18 As you saw from those pictures, the
19 Bottom is a beautiful area, and I live there. I live
20 there year-around. And I would like to see it
21 protected.
22 CHAIRMAN BASS: I think we're in
23 agreement with you, and I appreciate the two of you
24 effort to come here and the patience of waiting until
25 the end of the day to have your turn at the podium.
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1 Any questions or comments on this item?
2 COMMISSIONER AVILA: Motion for
3 approval.
4 CHAIRMAN BASS: I have a motion.
5 COMMISSIONER WATSON: Second.
6 CHAIRMAN BASS: And a second.
7 All in favor?
8 Thank you, Mr. Bauer.
9 (Motion carries unanimously.)
10 "The Executive Director is authorized to request the
11 Office of the Attorney General to initiate partition of
12 remaining undivided interest ownership in three tracts
13 of real property at Big Lake Bottom Wildlife Management
14 Area as governed by Chapter 23 of the Texas Property
15 Code."
16 AGENDA ITEM NO. 18: ACTION - LAND DONATION - WORLD
17 BIRDING CENTER - CAMERON COUNTY
18 CHAIRMAN BASS: The last order of
19 business is Item 18. Gary Graham. Land Donation-World
20 Birding-Center-Cameron County, please.
21 DR. GRAHAM: As part of the proposal to
22 become a site and world birding center complex of
23 sites, the community of Mission and its private
24 partner, the Bentsen Palm Development, Incorporated,
25 agreed to donate four parcels of land totaling 176
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1 acres and the associated water rights. And the graphic
2 on the screen illustrates those four parcels of land.
3 And the staff recommends that the Parks
4 and Wildlife Commission adopt the following motion.
5 CHAIRMAN BASS: Questions or comments?
6 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Move to enter a
7 motion.
8 COMMISSIONER HENRY: Second.
9 CHAIRMAN BASS: Motion and quite a few
10 seconds.
11 All in favor? Any opposed?
12 Motion carries.
13 DR. GRAHAM: For the record, I'm Gary
14 Graham, director of the Wildlife --
15 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you.
16 (Motion carries unanimously.)
17 "The Executive Director is authorized to take all
18 necessary steps to consummate the donation and
19 acceptance of approximately 176 acres and associated
20 water rights in Hidalgo County as an addition to
21 Bentsen-Rio Grande State Park and the proposed World
22 Birding Center main visitor center and headquarters."
23 CHAIRMAN BASS: I don't believe that
24 there is any further business to come before this
25 Commission today. I appreciate all of my fellow
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1 commissioners' efforts and sweat equity today, and you
2 can collect your paychecks at the front door.
3 We stand adjourned.
4 (HEARING ADJOURNED)
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1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
2 STATE OF TEXAS )
3 COUNTY OF TRAVIS )
4 I, MARY SAUCEDO, a Certified Court Reporter in and
5 for the State of Texas, do hereby certify that the
6 above and foregoing 251 pages constitute a full, true
7 and correct transcript of the minutes of the Texas
8 Parks and Wildlife Commission on AUGUST 31, 2000, in
9 the Commission hearing room of the Texas Parks and
10 Wildlife Headquater Complex, Austin, Travis County,
11 Texas.
12 I FURTHER CERTIFY that a stenographic record was
13 made by me at the time of the public meeting, and said
14 stenographic notes were thereafter reduced to
15 computerized transcription under my supervision and
16 control.
17 WITNESS MY HAND this the day of
18 , 2000.
19
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MARY SAUCEDO, CSR NO. 5943
23 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES
7800 IH 10 West, Suite 100
24 San Antonio, Texas 78230
(210)377-3027
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ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES
7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TX 78230
(210) 377-3027 (800) 969-3027 FAX (210) 344-6016
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3 Lee M. Bass, Chairman
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5 Carol Dinkins, Vice-Chairman
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7 Ernest Angelo, Jr., Member
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9 John Avila, Jr., Member
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11 Richard W. (Dick) Heath, Member
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13 Alvin L. Henry, Member
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15 Katharine Armstrong Idsal Member
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17 Nolan Ryan, Member
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Mark E. Watson, Jr., Member
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ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES
7800 IH-10 WEST, SUITE 100, SAN ANTONIO, TX 78230
(210) 377-3027 (800) 969-3027 FAX (210) 344-6016