Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission
Regulations Committee
Aug. 30, 2000
Commission Hearing RoomTexas Parks & Wildlife Department Headquarters Complex
4200 Smith School Road
Austin, TX 78744
1
7 BE IT REMEMBERED that heretofore on the
8 30th day of August, 2000, there came on to be
9 heard matters under the regulatory authority of
10 the Parks and Wildlife Commission of Texas, in
11 the Commission Hearing Room of the Texas Parks
12 and Wildlife Headquarters Complex, Austin,
13 Texas, beginning at 9:26 a.m. to wit:
14
15
APPEARANCES:
16 THE PARKS AND WILDLIFE COMMISSION:
REGULATIONS COMMITTEE:
17 Chair: Lee M. Bass
Ernest Angelo, Jr.
18 Carol E. Dinkins
Dick W. Heath
19 Nolan Ryan
John Avila, Jr.
20 Alvin L. Henry
Katharine Armstrong Idsal
21 Mark E. Watson, Jr.
22 THE PARKS AND WILDLIFE DEPARTMENT:
Andrew H. Sansom, Executive Director, and other
23 personnel of the Parks and Wildlife Department
24
25
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1 AUGUST 30, 2000
2
3 CHAIRMAN BASS: Good morning.
4 Are we live?
5 We will commence our meetings with the
6 call to order of the Regulations Committee,
7 please. And Mr. Sansom would you please read
8 our opening statement.
9 MR. SANSOM: Mr. Chairman and members
10 of meeting and this -- notice of this meeting
11 containing all items on the proposed agenda has
12 been filed in the Office of Secretary of State
13 as required by Chapter 551 of the Government
14 Code. This is referred to as the Open Meetings
15 Law, and I would like for this action to be
16 noted in the official record of the minutes.
17 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you. First
18 order of business will be a briefing on the
19 chairman's charges, and would you please do
20 that for us.
21 ITEM NO. 1 - BRIEFING - CHAIRMAN'S CHARGES.
22 MR. SANSOM: Yes. Mr. Chairman,
23 the charges for regulations include the
24 establishment bylaws for the finfish license
25 management review board and that has been
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1 done.
2 We've issued requested for bids for the
3 first commercial crab license buybacks and bids
4 for the eighth commercial shrimp license
5 buybacks. We have also requests to publish
6 amendments to the MLD regulations on our agenda
7 today, so that conclude the charges.
8 CHAIRMAN BASS: Also, the Committee
9 needs to approve the minutes from our last
10 committee meeting, and if there are any changes
11 or observations, the Chair would entertain them
12 now.
13 COMMISSIONER HEATH: Approval.
14 COMMISSIONER HENRY: Second.
15 CHAIRMAN BASS: Motion for approval
16 by Mr. Heath, second by Mr. Henry. All in
17 favor?
18 ALL COMMISSIONERS: Aye.
19 CHAIRMAN BASS: Any opposed?
20 (No response, and motion carries
21 unanimously.)
22 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you.
23 AGENDA ITEM NO. 5: ACTION - MIGRATORY GAME
24 BIRD PROCLAMATION- LATE SEASON.
25 CHAIRMAN BASS: We're going to go out
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1 of order a little bit today because I
2 understand there's scheduling issues with the
3 staff and first do the migratory game bird
4 proclamation late season.
5 Good morning, Mr. Bevill.
6 MR. BEVILL: Good morning.
7 Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission, my
8 name is Vernon Bevill. I'm the program
9 director for migratory wildlife, and today
10 marks the third part of our process for the
11 implementation of migratory wildlife
12 regulations for 2000-2001 season. This is the
13 section that deals with late-season species and
14 we will also be involved in one amendment to an
15 early season species.
16 The primary changes that resulted by the
17 Fish and Wildlife Service, two of those changes
18 relate to our ability to set the Light Goose
19 Conservation Order at this meeting rather than
20 later in the fall by emergency regulation that
21 pertain to shortening the goose seasons and --
22 and sandhill crane season, and the other change
23 relates to the fact that the Fish and Wildlife
24 Service has offered a second youth hunting day
25 that would allow a full youth hunting weekend
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1 this year.
2 CHAIRMAN BASS: Well, the -- the
3 additional day is in addition to the general
4 season; is that right?
5 MR. BEVILL: In addition to the
6 general season, but within our maximum
7 allowable 107 days of hunting.
8 CHAIRMAN BASS: Total of that
9 season. Okay.
10 MR. BEVILL: And the Western Goose
11 Zone, we did contemplate and -- and discuss
12 this with you at the April meeting, the
13 possibility of establishing a Central Goose
14 Zone to deal with the fact that not many light
15 geese occur in the eastern portion of the
16 Western Goose Zone and last year we had to run
17 the conservation order during that period that
18 required a closure early. After reassessing
19 the harvest of light geese by shortening the
20 Western Goose Zone by a week we've decided that
21 we weren't -- wouldn't gain enough to do that
22 again this year, so we are recommending the
23 full light and dark goose regular seasons for
24 the Western Goose Zone and the dates are
25 similar to last year with calendarship, bag
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1 limits are unchanged.
2 For the Eastern Goose Zone, instead of
3 having to come in by emergency rule and shorten
4 the -- the calendar goose season and the
5 regular light goose season, we were able to do
6 that this year at this meeting, so the light
7 goose season and the dark goose seasons will
8 both -- will all initiate on October 28th and
9 close on January the 21st with the same bag
10 limits as last year.
11 The Fish and Wildlife Service is giving us
12 this option to establish the Light Goose
13 Conservation Order in concurrence with our
14 regular seasons as I've noted, and so for the
15 Light Goose Conservation Order, we would
16 implement that in the Western Goose Zone on
17 February the 12th and run it through April the
18 1st and January the 22nd through April the 1st
19 in the Eastern Goose Zone with the same
20 provisos as allowed the past two years.
21 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: In -- In the
22 Western Zone on the white-fronted geese, you
23 haven't had any luck in -- or have you -- what
24 effort have we made, if any, to increase that
25 to two?
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1 MR. BEVILL: We've -- We have
2 discussed this every year with the -- with our
3 fly-away and Fish and Wildlife Service and
4 the -- and the concern for white-fronts in the
5 Western Goose Zone is that they're coming out
6 of the Pacific population primarily and that is
7 a somewhat smaller population, and so we can't
8 get concurrence from the Fish and Wildlife
9 Service yet on increasing that bag limit to
10 reflect the same as the Eastern Goose Zone.
11 The Snow Goose Conservation Order requires
12 that sandhill crane season be closed during
13 that period. As in the previous two years, we
14 would have to take action to shorten the
15 sandhill crane season in compliance with
16 that -- with that stipulation.
17 The environmental impact statement on the
18 light goose issue is progressing and -- and
19 within our public comments we hope to point out
20 that this is really not a conflict and try to
21 extract the sandhill crane from that regulatory
22 requirement in the future years.
23 CHAIRMAN BASS: How -- How much of
24 those seasons will we be losing?
25 MR. BEVILL: Well, this year we -- we
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1 moved this -- the opener for the sandhill crane
2 season in Zone C back a week, so we actually
3 gain a week back by opening it a little
4 earlier, but we're basically losing about 21
5 days of the 37 days in the -- in Zone C, which
6 is the Coastal Zone, and we're losing about the
7 same amount of days in the Zone B, but we --
8 but we opened Zone B earlier and so we get --
9 had a longer season in Zone B, which is a
10 light -- very lightly harvested area, anyway.
11 The real impact would be in Zone C.
12 CHAIRMAN BASS: We're losing over
13 half of it?
14 MR. BEVILL: Yes, sir.
15 Let me go back here.
16 CHAIRMAN BASS: Do you have any
17 estimates of how many -- how many hunters that
18 impacts?
19 MR. BEVILL: We have about 4500
20 active sandhill crane hunters in Texas, and
21 probably half of those hunt in Zone -- in
22 Zone C.
23 CHAIRMAN BASS: Over 2,000?
24 MR. BEVILL: Yeah. Yes, sir. And
25 that -- And that impacts about the harvest that
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1 we would normally take that --
2 CHAIRMAN BASS: Sure.
3 MR. BEVILL: -- by about 50 percent.
4 CHAIRMAN BASS: And do we have any
5 estimates of how many hunters take advantage of
6 the late goose season, the extended snow goose
7 season?
8 MR. BEVILL: We -- We are running
9 estimates on that. We do a follow-up survey
10 every year to kind of look at our harvest
11 and -- and we're basing those estimates on the
12 calculation of the -- the hunters who are
13 compliant with HIP who say they are goose
14 hunters, and I don't have that number off the
15 top of my head, but we just ran the survey, and
16 last year, our survey indicated we harvested
17 about 53,000 Canada geese -- I mean, white --
18 white geese during that extended season. And
19 this year's survey indicated we about doubled
20 that, and so we're still looking at that survey
21 to be sure we -- we've not missed something
22 because we want to be sure our number is
23 fairly -- fairly accurate, but the preliminary
24 estimate is that we went over 100,000 during
25 the conservation order period compared to
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1 53,000 a year ago.
2 CHAIRMAN BASS: Is there a way to
3 extrapolate how many hunters that might
4 represent?
5 MR. BEVILL: Yes, sir. And that's
6 part of what we're -- that's part of what
7 we're --
8 CHAIRMAN BASS: So --
9 MR. BEVILL: -- looking at.
10 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you.
11 MR. BEVILL: Uh-huh. For ducks
12 mergansers, and coots, the bag limit is
13 basically the same as -- as last year. The --
14 The composition for those species that there
15 are further restrictions on is the same. Of
16 course, there are a number of species like teal
17 and gadwall and shovelers there are no
18 restrictions for those species, so that's
19 basically the same as last year.
20 Season dates with calendar shifts are
21 the same as last year for the high-plain
22 mallard management unit, the North Zone and
23 South Zone, because we are actually in the
24 high-plain mallard management unit, if you
25 total up the number of regular duck-hunting
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1 days available, the teal season days, and the
2 youth weekend, there are a potential of
3 115 days of hunting, but we are restricted by
4 treaty to only 107 days of hunting in order to
5 provide the two-day youth weekend in the -- in
6 the high plains, we -- we pulled one day out of
7 the -- Actually, it's the Tuesday in the -- in
8 the first segment of the October hunt and --
9 and laid that back with the -- with the youth
10 hunt feeling like the greater gain would be
11 providing the youth opportunity over a full
12 weekend and -- and the Tuesday was a -- and
13 particularly in the first segment was a
14 lightly-hunted day anyway, so that's the
15 movement we made.
16 And we are recommending the youth hunts
17 to -- to basically be the same weekend as last
18 year in each of the areas with the addition of
19 the Sunday opportunity for -- for youth
20 hunting. And count -- And the dates of the
21 season proposal are the same with
22 calendarship.
23 For the extended falconry season in the
24 high-plain mallard management unit because we
25 are at the maximum and we are not proposing any
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1 days for the -- for the extended falconry
2 season, however, we are utilizing, I think, 91
3 gun-hunting days in the North and South Duck
4 Zone, so that leaves us some days to allow
5 extended falconry for the -- for the remainder
6 of the state and we are proposing that for the
7 22nd of January through February 6.
8 We had very light public comments this
9 year, only 21 to date, and the preponderance of
10 those comments revolved around recommendations
11 on when to set the youth weekend, and we have
12 pursued the youth weekend proposals consistent
13 with public comment.
14 Mr. Chairman, I would recommend that this
15 committee move this item forward to the
16 attention of the full commission tomorrow
17 for -- for action.
18 I'd be glad to entertain any further
19 questions.
20 CHAIRMAN BASS: Are there any
21 questions or comments at this time?
22 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Move approval
23 of the full committee action.
24 CHAIRMAN BASS: Motion to move it to
25 the commission agenda tomorrow for public
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1 comment and further consideration.
2 COMMISSIONER RYAN: Second.
3 COMMISSIONER DINKINS:
4 Mr. Chairman?
5 CHAIRMAN BASS: Yes, ma'am.
6 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Was this one
7 elegible for consent?
8 CHAIRMAN BASS: Might be, but I would
9 suggest we not do it in consent personally.
10 Thank you for raising it.
11 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: It is an
12 option. I found it.
13 CHAIRMAN BASS: Any comments? All in
14 favor?
15 ALL COMMISSIONERS: Aye.
16 CHAIRMAN BASS: Any opposed?
17 (No response, and motion carries
18 unanimously.)
19 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you.
20 MR. BEVILL: Thank you, sir.
21 AGENDA ITEM NO. 2: ACTION - TRAP, TRANSPORT,
22 AND TRANSPLANT.
23 CHAIRMAN BASS: All right. Trap,
24 Transport, and Transplant permit. Mr. Cooke.
25 DR. COOKE: Mr. Chairman and members,
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1 my name is Jerry Cooke, program director for
2 Upland Wildlife Ecology and I'll be presenting
3 the proposed changes to the statewide Trap,
4 Transport, and Transplant Proclamation. If the
5 Commission require -- recall in '95 and '96
6 when we sunseted all of our regulations, this
7 proclamation had just been adopted and so it
8 was waived from review at that time. Many of
9 the changes that you see in your booklet are
10 essentially sunset changes. We're removing
11 redundant language simplifying language,
12 anything in statutes not required in
13 regulation, and -- But those are basically
14 nonsubstantive changes to the -- to the
15 regulations.
16 Also, because of some problems that
17 occurred this past year, we are defining
18 permittee as anyone who is allowed to conduct
19 permitted activities under a permit and
20 clarifying the substantive -- the supervising
21 permittee is the one to whom the permit is
22 originally issued and who applies for it.
23 In the proposal that's in your booklet,
24 there's some incorrect dates on the period of
25 time in which we would guarantee a review,
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1 approval, or disapproval of an application. If
2 someone were to apply between September 1 and
3 November 15th, we can guarantee that there will
4 be no more than 45 days involved in reviewing
5 and approving or disapproving their
6 application. This is a very busy time of year
7 for our people, and after that period, we can't
8 really make such a guarantee, and this is
9 hopefully to shift the application process to
10 earlier in the season rather than later.
11 Clarifying that all release sites must
12 have an approved wildlife management plan.
13 We're also defining a minimum impact
14 release as one having a density of deer less
15 than one to 200 acres for a tract of land.
16 These essentially will be waiving our
17 requirement to have a field inspection. Such
18 an inspection can still take place, but
19 basically it's not necessary under these
20 circumstances.
21 Any buck deer moved between October 1 and
22 February 10th will have its antlers removed
23 before it's moved and released. This would not
24 apply to an owner of two tracts that are
25 essentially contiguous, separated by a road or
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1 by a fence or moving animals between pastures
2 on a single property, but any other -- Any
3 other buck moved during this period must have
4 their antlers removed.
5 Also, there was a problem in our
6 notification requirement. There were
7 individuals who would notify the Department,
8 quote, within 24 hours of an operation then not
9 do anything for three weeks and this was making
10 it difficult for inspection of either the trap
11 site or the release site. We'd be changing
12 those propose -- that regulation to
13 notification between 24 and 48 hours of each
14 instance of a trapping operation.
15 Also, some changes in the recordkeeping
16 requirement which would require a daily log.
17 Most trappers do this anyway. These would be
18 available for inspection so that we could
19 determine whether they were in their process on
20 their permit at any time.
21 Also, in the final report, we would -- we
22 would be proposing to change the regulation to
23 require a financial disclosure to be included
24 in the report of the permitted activities.
25 This can be done by receipt. That would be a
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1 feasible way of doing so, and, therefore, those
2 records would also be part of the daily --
3 daily log of the operations as well and
4 available for inspection.
5 As we did with the Scientific Breeder
6 Proclamation, we're proposing that any truck,
7 trailer, box, or whatever, which animals are
8 being possessed under this permit be marked
9 with a simple marking of three Ts on the back
10 of the vehicle or box.
11 Also, we're including in this regulations
12 very similar to those that we have in the other
13 Chapter 43 permits that require that any animal
14 that's inadvertently killed, either during the
15 trapping, transporting, or releasing operation
16 be kept in an edible condition, disposed of by
17 donating it to a needy individual, charitable
18 institution, those sorts of things, and those
19 receipts for those animals would be included in
20 their final report.
21 Also, animals that were inadvertently
22 killed during these operations would be part of
23 the number of animals that they had been
24 permitted to trap. In other words, it would
25 count against however many they were allowed
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1 under the permit.
2 Public comment is fairly light on this --
3 on this issue. We had public hearings in
4 Cotulla, Kerrville, San Angelo, Athens, and
5 Austin, which was attended by 36 people.
6 Basically, the comments were very -- were very
7 supportive. There were a lot of questions.
8 There weren't really any negative comments at
9 any of those, but there was one suggestion that
10 perhaps the definition of a minimum impact
11 release could be more deer, but basically in
12 our conversations with the task force, the --
13 the recommendation of the task force was all
14 over the board and we kind of split the
15 difference in our proposal, and we would
16 recommend that we retain that. We had 13
17 e-mail comments that all were basically opposed
18 to the whole process, you know, not any aspect
19 oft proposal, but just the Trapping and
20 Transport Proclamation in general.
21 This will be the motion that we'll be
22 recommending to the full commission tomorrow,
23 and at this time, I'll be happy to take any
24 questions or comments you might have on this or
25 suggestions and my recommendations that we
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1 forward this to the full commission tomorrow
2 for further comment and adoption.
3 Ma'am?
4 COMMISSIONER IDSAL: The only
5 question I have on the required marking of
6 trailers and vehicles, will there be some sort
7 of decal or --
8 DR. COOKE: They can mark them any
9 way they want.
10 COMMISSIONER IDSAL: Any way. And --
11 DR. COOKE: Basically as long as it's
12 a different color from the background and large
13 enough to be read from a vehicle following is
14 all that's really required. I don't think that
15 the -- I'm sorry. I don't -- Well, wait a
16 minute. I do have my regulations here.
17 MR. GRAHAM: While Jerry's looking at
18 them, let me thank the task force that worked
19 with us on putting all these recommendations
20 together. Some of the members are here and we
21 really appreciate their effort.
22 DR. COOKE: The letters have to be
23 6 inches. I'm sorry. I couldn't recall the
24 exact, but it's -- It's just a contrasting
25 letter so that we could distinguish it.
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1 CHAIRMAN BASS: Any other comments?
2 As I understand the recommendation, it includes
3 the -- some of the housekeeping items that we
4 discussed --
5 DR. COOKE: Yes, sir.
6 CHAIRMAN BASS: -- recently of --
7 DR. COOKE: Yes, sir, as far as
8 the -- as far as the notification, there's two
9 different ways that we've done that in the
10 regulations. We chose one and it probably
11 would be more appropriate to use the research
12 format for that and that will be a housekeeping
13 change. It really doesn't affect our ability
14 to enforce it or inspect or comply with the
15 statutes.
16 CHAIRMAN BASS: All right. Any
17 further comment or questions? And I believe
18 this one would be eligible for a consent
19 agenda. Got most of our comments on this one
20 up front in the task force and it's been pretty
21 smooth sailing since then.
22 DR. COOKE: It's just the -- It's
23 just the first one for me sort of to get a
24 consent agenda.
25 CHAIRMAN BASS: I have a motion and a
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1 second. All in favor?
2 ALL COMMISSIONERS: Aye.
3 CHAIRMAN BASS: Any opposed?
4 (No response, and motion carries
5 unanimously.)
6 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you very much.
7 DR. COOKE: Thank you, sir.
8 AGENDA ITEM NO. 3. ACTION - 2000-2001 SHRIMP
9 MANAGEMENT PROCLAMATION
10 CHAIRMAN BASS: Next item of business
11 will be the Shrimp Management Proclamation and
12 the Chair would like to recognize that
13 Senator Bernsen from the Beaumont area is -- is
14 with us today and we appreciate his interest
15 and attendance here today. Just recognizing
16 your presence, Senator, and appreciate you
17 being here and -- and having an interest in --
18 in what we're doing here today.
19 SENATOR BERNSEN: Absolutely.
20 Absolutely. And I'll be in and out. I don't
21 need to make a comment right now.
22 CHAIRMAN BASS: Oh, you're welcome to
23 if you'd care to. Thank you.
24 DR. MCKINNEY: Mr. Chairman,
25 members, for the record, I'm Dr. Larry
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1 McKinney, senior director for aquatic
2 resources, Parks and Wildlife. I've been
3 charged with introducing the -- this issue and
4 trying to address some of the basic concerns
5 that have been raised about the foundation
6 department, which the -- the proposal has
7 been -- has been addressed. You'll find in
8 your packet of information a -- a section
9 called -- entitled, Major Criticisms Received
10 on the Proposal of the Shrimp -- of Shrimping
11 Rules, which is staff's attempt to address some
12 of those common issues that were raised
13 throughout our public process, and what I would
14 like to do today is -- is to briefly review a
15 couple of those that -- that we heard quite
16 often and then, of course, answering any
17 questions that you might -- that you might
18 have. I would like to go over with you
19 three -- three different areas, a discussion on
20 environmental impacts on the shrimping
21 industry, bycatch studies, and basic -- what I
22 call basic shrimp management science.
23 The first issue on environmental impacts,
24 there's been some -- been consistent statements
25 that, in fact, environmental conditions are the
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1 real cause of declines in shrimp populations.
2 That's -- That's where the problem lies. I
3 want to briefly address -- address those, and
4 those types of impacts really do fall into --
5 into two areas, one that I would call
6 long-term, kind of cumulative impacts, and
7 those are issues that directly affect ecosystem
8 health: Water quality, water quantity,
9 habitat.
10 And our staff, in summarizing where we are
11 in those long-term issues, for example, I'm
12 looking at water quality. When we look at our
13 two major bay systems, Galveston and
14 Corpus Christi, which has the most impact on
15 them and look at the results of studies by the
16 national estuarine programs, we see that, in
17 fact, water quality is improving in those bays
18 and has been.
19 Water quantity, this is fresh water
20 inflows. It's an important issue for all of us
21 that we've -- we've dealt with, and if we look
22 at that, we know that those issues are going to
23 become increasingly important along the upper
24 coast areas, that -- that we're -- we're in
25 fairly good shape there now, but with the
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1 pressures of water development and so forth,
2 it's going to become more and more critical,
3 and as you move down the coast toward Corpus,
4 they are important right now and they are
5 limiting factors on the health of those systems
6 and the fresh water that it receives, so we're
7 actively working in those areas.
8 Habitat, we have along the Texas coast as
9 we have seen throughout the country, we've lost
10 about half of our -- our wetlands, which are --
11 are fundamental to -- to those issues.
12 So those are long-term factors that we do
13 have to deal with. They do -- These factors do
14 affect the carrying capacity of those coastal
15 estuarine systems and we're all trying to work
16 on them. It's the one area, I think, in which
17 I would hope that all of our interests,
18 commercial, recreational, and department
19 would -- would agree that we have to work
20 together on to make sure that we -- that we
21 protect the health of those -- of those
22 systems. But the reality is that that carrying
23 capacity has diminished and -- and is
24 diminishing, and as it affects how we manage
25 all of our fisheries, it's a carrying capacity
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. 25
1 deal. It's a matter of how we allocate those
2 resources and how we allocate the pie itself
3 and how we deal with that, and that's what we
4 have to deal with.
5 When you look at -- at other factors which
6 are more short term, perhaps annual types of
7 impacts, we're talking about droughts,
8 hurricanes, and floods, and so forth and those
9 do, obviously, affect on a -- on a short-term
10 basis, even annually production of shrimp,
11 fish, and -- and other things as illustrated
12 here on -- on this graph. The point I would
13 want to make and I think you've heard this and
14 you will hear it, that, for example, Well,
15 we're having a good shrimping year this year.
16 Why are we doing these regulations? Well, that
17 questions is concerning because, in fact, we
18 don't manage fisheries of any type on a
19 year-to-year basis. We look at the long-term
20 sustainability. I think if you were to say
21 that, okay, if we're having a good year this
22 year, what do we do when we have a bad year?
23 And, in fact, the good year this year was
24 mostly offshore and with places inshore that
25 weren't. We don't want to be in a situation
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1 where we -- we look at it on that basis, we
2 have to look longer term, and so that's --
3 that's what we're looking at here and what we
4 look at and that Hal and others will -- will
5 adequately, I think, could demonstrate to you
6 that our concern and the reasons we've come to
7 you is that decline, that long-term decline as
8 you see on the graphics of -- of our shrimp
9 populations.
10 In another area of -- of some concern
11 raised was that in looking at bycatch issues,
12 that our bycatch data was not valid because the
13 TPWD boats were used, Parks and Wildlife boats
14 were used to do that. And, yes, we have used
15 our boats in looking at efficiencies of various
16 bycatch devices and other things, but the basis
17 upon which our proposals have come forward is
18 illustrated here in the graphics. In fact,
19 those studies were conducted through the period
20 of 1993 to 1995, included seven bay systems.
21 We analyzed 854 tows from 216 different
22 commercial boats. Basically, our biologists
23 went out as the fishermen were towing, came up
24 to the fisherman and basically bought a portion
25 of their catch and did the analysis. This is
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1 straight out of -- out of the commercial
2 activity and that's the basis upon which we
3 made our determination of -- of the impacts
4 of -- of bycatch and those studies as you can
5 see where they were done and at what time.
6 The final issue and one that's most
7 important and we will spend some time on this
8 talking about the very foundations on which
9 this proposal is based and that's the
10 science -- science of shrimp management. There
11 have been a couple of statements made
12 consistently that we hear that there is a
13 contradiction between Texas Parks and Wildlife
14 and the National Marine Fishery Service
15 information and one you can overfish shrimp
16 stocks. And I want us to spend some time on
17 that this morning addressing those issues and
18 we have enlisted the aid of some scientists to
19 come up and talk with you about it and give you
20 the opportunity to talk with them.
21 But before I introduce those speakers, in
22 the back of that packet that talks about that
23 criticisms, there is a glossary, a multi-page
24 glossary of terms that -- that are used, and
25 what I've done and will do for just a few
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1 moments, I've picked out some key terms that
2 you will hear over and over this morning and
3 throughout the day and I want to make sure that
4 we -- we understand them and -- and can go
5 forward with them, so let's do that.
6 First of all, the term of biological
7 overfishing, this is a key term for us in that
8 in our fisheries management plan, we are
9 directed that when we recognize biological
10 overfishing as occurring, that's the key for us
11 to take some action and bring forward
12 recommendations to you-all -- to you-all. And
13 that biological overfishing occurs when harvest
14 falls below maximum sustainable yield and we
15 begin to get some indication of that by a
16 declining CPUE, catch per unit effort. So when
17 we see that happening, that's how we're
18 directed in our management. And when we see
19 that begin to happen, that's when we need
20 to take action to -- to meet our
21 responsibilities.
22 So let's define those two terms. First,
23 catch per unit effort, which basically is the
24 amount of shrimp caught by a defined amount of
25 effort, usually in pounds her hour. I think an
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1 analogy of this would be -- And I'll promise
2 I'll only use the baseball analogy once and
3 that's batting average. That's really what
4 we're talking about, that success for effort of
5 coming up to the plate on it. That's what
6 we're talking about, how -- a standardized form
7 of trying to -- to get a handle on what success
8 rates are per unit of effort or times forward.
9 So that's -- That's what CPUE would be.
10 Maximum sustained yield, MSY. This is the
11 largest average catch that can be taken
12 continuously on a sustained basis obviously
13 from a stock under average environmental
14 conditions. Basically all other factors aside,
15 what's the -- the greatest poundage that you
16 can produce of any particular fish, in this
17 case, shrimp. What's the maximum sustained
18 yield that you can expect. This is a basic
19 figure in looking at how you manage fisheries.
20 What we look toward as far as what we're
21 trying to do and certainly what it's our
22 attempt for our proposal before you today to
23 accomplish is optimum yield, not maximum
24 sustain yield, but optimum yield, the amount of
25 shrimp the fishery will produce on a continuing
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1 basis that will achieve a maximum economic
2 benefits to the shrimping industry and the
3 state and as modified by relevant social or
4 economic factors. In other words, taking into
5 account impacts on -- by bycatch, those types
6 of things, trying to look at a set of proposals
7 that will reach an optimum yield that will
8 satisfy other impacts, other fisheries, other
9 issues, be it bycatch, turtles, or whatever,
10 trying to come up with that average. That's
11 where we're -- That's where we're trying to
12 go.
13 A couple of other terms, two last terms
14 that you will hear over and over today and have
15 heard, recruit overfishing defined as stocks
16 that are exploited to a level where
17 reproduction capacity is depressed, recruitment
18 of young to the population is too low to
19 support the current fishery. This is the state
20 that you do not want to reach. It's very
21 difficult, and -- and as I've tried to work my
22 way through each process and look at other
23 fisheries management issues, this is the key
24 issue that -- that consistently has been
25 difficult to detect until you're there and --
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1 and then you -- then you have really problems.
2 How you -- How you find that is very -- is very
3 difficult and -- and one that certainly is --
4 is one that no one wants to achieve, but, in
5 fact, in other fisheries where they have, it's
6 been -- it's been really a disaster for them,
7 so that's -- this is not where we want to go.
8 What we look at -- And the other term
9 you'll hear is growth overfishing, individuals
10 caught at too young an age where benefits for
11 future growth are lost, where more are caught
12 but average weights are low, turtle -- total
13 yield is less than if the young had been
14 allowed to grow. These are the conditions that
15 we're facing now and our sign that when you get
16 to this growth overfishing, you know what's
17 coming next, so this is when you want to take
18 that action to -- to try to -- to turn that
19 around, and that's -- that again, is the basis
20 of where we're at.
21 Unless there's any particular questions, I
22 want to now really go on to our guest speakers
23 to address these issues. And I -- I will go
24 over and kind of give that introduction to all
25 of our -- our scientists and then -- and then
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1 we'll go from there, but first, I want to
2 introduce you to Dr. Adolfo Gracia.
3 Dr. Gracia, as you see here, is an
4 international expert, world traveler, well
5 recognized in the scientific community for the
6 work that he does. He's director and senior
7 scientist at the Institute of Marine Science
8 and Mammalogy of the National University of
9 Mexico. We're very fortunate to have him here
10 with us. Dr. Gracia really after hearing of
11 our proposal and reading about it came forward
12 to us and through e-mail, really, and -- and
13 offered up that he had had these types of
14 experience with overfishing of the shrimp
15 stocks in -- in Mexico and -- and he has
16 published on it widely and we asked him to come
17 up and share his experiences that he has had in
18 Mexico with you to illustrate the fact that, in
19 fact, you can overfish shrimp stocks and it has
20 happened more than once in Mexico, and I think
21 you'll find that -- that very -- very
22 illuminating.
23 We have two other experts --
24 CHAIRMAN BASS: Excuse me, Larry. I
25 just -- just learned, and for those who like me
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1 didn't know, benthic ecology, I understand, is
2 the -- deals with this -- the bottom.
3 DR. MCKINNEY: Yes, sir, the -- the
4 animals and organisms that live in the
5 substrate and upon which shrimp and others
6 feed. It's a very basic fundamental -- I would
7 say it's probably the most important area in
8 the marine ecologist because I'm a benthic
9 ecologist myself by -- by the short train, but
10 that's another -- that's another deal.
11 CHAIRMAN BASS: Put Andy on the
12 spot. He was worried as to whether his answer
13 he was me was right or not.
14 DR. MCKINNEY: I find that our
15 executive director is nearly always correct, so
16 I wasn't too worried.
17 CHAIRMAN BASS: He is.
18 DR. MCKINNEY: All right. See if I
19 can get back on track. I would go -- I would
20 like to go ahead at this time and -- and
21 introduce our two remaining scientific
22 speakers. One, Dr. Roger Zimmerman who is the
23 current director of National Marine Fisheries
24 Laboratory at Galveston, Texas, and we know
25 well as you can see here his history. I've
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1 known Dr. Zimmerman for -- for many years. He
2 did want to -- me to let you know that he is a
3 native Texas, he was born and raised in South
4 Texas so he's very much familiar with -- with
5 Texas and our situation. Widely educated
6 through -- throughout Texas, Florida, and the
7 University of Puerto Rico so he will be here
8 obviously addressing the issue about agreements
9 and issues with the National Marine Fishery
10 Service. And also joining him this morning is
11 Dr. James Nance who is chief of the fishery
12 management branch of the National -- the Marine
13 Fisheries Laboratory there, and Mr. Nance has
14 been widely quoted by many scientists, so we
15 have him here today directly so that you-all
16 can -- can hear their presentations and -- and
17 talk to them. So at this time unless there's
18 any other questions from -- from you-all, I
19 would like Dr. Gracia to come forward.
20 Dr. Gracia has a superb grasp of English which
21 I wish I equaled in Spanish but do not, but
22 will ask Maria Rojo to come up and join him in
23 case there's any kind of translation issues,
24 but he -- he will handle himself well, so --
25 DR. GRACIA: Thank you very much.
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1 Nice to be here. I'm am glad to be here to
2 give you a broad overview of the shrimp fishery
3 in the south of the Gulf of Mexico. As you
4 know, we share -- we share the same species
5 that you have in the United States. You can
6 see that the -- the main fishing grounds, which
7 are in the south of both of Mexico, one is in
8 Tamaulipas state and the other is in the Bay of
9 Campeche, which you know very well. The
10 problem we will -- we have had in the -- in the
11 Gulf of Mexico is that the shrimp fishery was
12 already exploited at -- fully exploited in the
13 '80s, in the '70s, and a total -- the total
14 shrimp reduction decreased around 50 percent in
15 the last year. What happened was the offshore
16 fishing effort decreased, but this was because
17 there was an increase in the artisanal fishing
18 effort, meaning the inshore fishing effort and
19 coastal fishing effort with the artisanal
20 field. What this happened was the fishery
21 brought to a level to stay the same effort,
22 same off -- offshore effort, but lower
23 production. Different fisheries were --
24 artisanal were acting on nursery areas. I
25 mean, charangas is fixed net, drift nets on
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1 white shrimp, and otter trawls on brown and
2 pink shrimp. This was harvesting juveniles,
3 and the problem was they don't allow shrimp to
4 grow at a maximum rate. This -- The maximum
5 size is -- is obtained offshore, and in Mexico,
6 we have -- with the artisanal fishery, we have
7 a loss of total volume mass in the ratio in the
8 brown shrimp 1:4 kilograms. That means a
9 typical one juvenile kilogram of shrimp, you
10 lost four in the offshore. With -- Regarding
11 pink shrimp, this is bigger because the shrimp
12 is -- is a small size. Pink shrimp is caught
13 at small size. This is -- The ratio is 1:9.
14 And finally, white shrimp is 1:2.5.
15 There the another thing we see in this
16 problem, that's if we protect juveniles, it's
17 60 percent more effective to -- for increasing
18 spawning if you just protect offshore adult
19 population. As you can see, there is an
20 inverse relationship with the offshore catch
21 and the artisanal inshore catch.
22 And we have some problems in the pink
23 shrimp. Fishing effort in the nursery area
24 caused decreasing torrent in the -- in the
25 '80s. This was a problem that -- by
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1 overgrowth -- overfishing that finally led to
2 recruitment overfishing and caused a decrease
3 in the total production.
4 Another problem was the white shrimp.
5 This was because -- mainly because a new
6 artisanal fishery appeared in '93 -- 1993 that
7 act mainly on the spawn of big shrimp. And the
8 end result, the offshore fishing effort
9 decreased trawlers, decreased the fishing
10 effort because fishing effort in artisanal
11 increased in the -- and also in other shrimp
12 life cycle stage.
13 These two fisheries, coast and the
14 unregulated artisanal effort increased that
15 finally and led to growth overfishing. And the
16 problem was that interaction between inshore
17 and offshore fisheries acting -- harvesting the
18 same species were taking more and more shrimp
19 from the population and the social pressure in
20 inshore fisheries promote the increase of
21 fishing effort independent of shrimp's
22 population situation.
23 Finally, what we have was this: The white
24 and pink shrimp collapsed and its production
25 reduced to around 20 percent of the annual mean
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1 production. This was in sometime was around
2 10 percent of the total production we have on
3 white shrimp.
4 MR. SANSOM: What year was that,
5 Doctor?
6 DR. GRACIA: It's from -- It's '73 to
7 1980, the total production. This was --
8 CHAIRMAN BASS: Where the collapse is
9 is, what, the end of the 1980s? It's hard for
10 us to read the dates on here.
11 DR. GRACIA: In white shrimp was in
12 the '83 --
13 CHAIRMAN BASS: Uh-huh.
14 DR. GRACIA: -- and the -- Also, in
15 pink shrimp was around the '80s. The -- The
16 trend began to -- in the '80s and now in the
17 '90s, the -- the shrimp fishery's really at
18 the lowest state.
19 While there was something that was talking
20 about that -- Let's talk about that this stock
21 recruitment relationship that is supposed not
22 to be in -- in shrimp, we found a relationship
23 between in the three of the species: brown,
24 white, and pink shrimp. And this could serve
25 to determine critical areas for spawning
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1 stock. You can -- In using this, you can
2 control cumulative fishing to define a risk
3 area where the spawning stock can be -- I mean,
4 as due to the fishing effort.
5 And also, this is very important because
6 the model can be used to regulate fishing
7 effort. High-fishing effort is increased risk
8 to their equipment, but optimal spawning
9 biomass can permit shrimp to take advantage of
10 interannual environmental viability. This
11 means that an enough population should be of
12 shrimp to have the ultimate deal independent of
13 the environmental evaluation. It's been to use
14 the environmental evaluation.
15 The -- We cannot be on the edge of the
16 risk area. It's needed -- A more bigger stock
17 is needed. What we have in Mexico, what we use
18 as regulation is closed season. We have a
19 closed season for brown shrimp. This also for
20 inshore and offshore shrimps. The difference
21 is that the inshore is 45 days and offshore
22 shrimp is more. The problem is different in
23 the south of in the Campeche Bank where a long
24 season has been set. In the offshore fishery,
25 it's six month and a half, the long closed
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1 season, and the artisanal fisheries, I mean,
2 inshore, and inshore is -- is open between
3 these six months and a half. In the -- And
4 from August 1st to September, 45 days when
5 there are more spawners and juveniles. This is
6 because of political pressures in the -- in the
7 area.
8 Well, there is -- There is another
9 difference between brown shrimp. It was fully
10 exploited since the '80s. We have the same
11 thing, the artisanal fishery effort in inshore,
12 in coast, growth overfishing, but a closure,
13 both inshore and offshore was set in --
14 during -- in '93 and reduced growth overfishing
15 and changed the trend of total production as
16 you can see in the picture. This allowed an
17 increase of total shrimp production of about
18 4,000 tons in the -- in '93.
19 Well, that now things are changing, the
20 political and social pressures are increasing
21 additional cash, the -- for increasing
22 additional cash are dissipating the effect of
23 the regulation and so the -- the juveniles and
24 the spawning potential is not protected.
25 Also, the long closed season in the
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1 Campeche Bay Bank is promoting an increase of
2 offshore fishing effort in the area and this is
3 affecting the total production, also the
4 spawning potential of -- of brown shrimp.
5 Well, I would like to -- to end with some
6 shrimp facts. Shrimp stock are subjected to
7 high harvesting levels in -- in Mexico. The
8 artisanal inshore and off -- and coastal
9 fisheries are practically of open access. And
10 accumulative fishing effort along different
11 life cycles stage is increasing. And a
12 stock-recruitment relationship exists, so
13 recruitment failure and shrimp fishery
14 collapses are possible. But important and
15 hopefully and optimistic is that the studies on
16 white and brown shrimp suggest that the shrimp
17 have a high capacity of recovering from
18 depleted states. The stock can be brought to
19 the original state, but obviously is control of
20 the fishing before is needed. This is to
21 achieve an adequate balance between the
22 different fisheries in the -- in the Gulf of
23 Mexico to optimize harvesting.
24 Also, shrimp size can be optimized. That
25 could be good for economic reason and for
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1 spawning potential. And finally, optimal
2 exploitation of juvenile stock requires the
3 reduction of world overfishing while preventing
4 recruitment overfishing.
5 Thanks.
6 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you. It's very
7 interesting to see what's been going on in
8 neighboring waters, which is something we -- we
9 don't always have the opportunity to know.
10 Anybody have any questions or things
11 they'd like -- like to clarify?
12 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: What was --
13 What was the reaction of the shrimping industry
14 to your -- to the closures and how do they feel
15 about it now?
16 DR. GRACIA: Well, the long closed
17 season is -- But there are different reaction.
18 The -- The brown shrimp closed season was for
19 good. That is a very good reaction in the
20 offshore fishery because the brown shrimp now
21 is -- is -- is coming back to the same growth
22 of overfishing, and the 45 closure, both
23 inshore and offshore was very well accepted.
24 And the -- As a matter of fact, the offshore
25 fishing industry promoted increase of the
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1 offshore closed season beginning at the 1st of
2 May. This was -- At the beginning it was
3 45 days both, and now it's more than 65 --
4 60 days, around 60 days, but this was good
5 because it increased total catch and increasing
6 sometimes in the degrees of shrimp size. The
7 problem is that the artisan -- the inshore
8 poaching and -- and also, the increasing
9 fishing effort before the closed season is
10 dissipating the -- the revenues of the -- of
11 the closed season. It's different in the
12 south, in the Campeche Bank, because this is a
13 long -- a long closed season and it's no good
14 for the industry because they don't have enough
15 time to -- to fish and they have to move to
16 Tamaulipas grounds and this is more expensive
17 and it's also increasing the fishing, offshore
18 fishing effort.
19 And as I told you, the problem is that the
20 inshore fishing is -- is allowed during the
21 time that it will be closed to spawner for
22 protecting the spawners and juveniles, for
23 white and pink shrimp. White shrimp is -- the
24 peak of recruitment is due in August,
25 September, and also is the -- is the more
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1 important reproductive season and for pink
2 shrimp, it's important to protect recruits,
3 juveniles, in the -- during the September. So
4 the fishing, offshore fishing industry is not
5 very -- It didn't accept very well this long
6 closed season.
7 I think another combination could be done
8 to -- to keep the population to a good state
9 without affecting the whole shrimp fishery in
10 the Gulf.
11 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you very much.
12 We appreciate your making the effort to -- to
13 come and speak to us today.
14 DR. GRACIA: Thank you.
15 CHAIRMAN BASS: Very good
16 presentation.
17 DR. GRACIA: Thank you very much.
18 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you.
19 DR. MCKINNEY: I think now we've got
20 Dr. Nance and Zimmerman, if you'll come on up
21 and --
22 DR. ZIMMERMAN: Good morning. I'm
23 Dr. Zimmerman. I'm the head of the National
24 Marine Fishery Service Laboratory in
25 Galveston. We've -- We've been in the shrimp
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1 laboratory for many, many years since -- since
2 the '50s. Today, I'll be representing Dr. Bill
3 Hogarth who is the regional administrator of
4 the Southeast Fisheries Service and he has
5 recently taken a temporary position as the
6 deputy administrator of the National Marine
7 Ser -- Fishery Service in Silver Spring, so
8 he's not able to be here. He and I have --
9 have gone over some points. He has developed
10 these points, ten different points that we
11 would like to -- sort of summary points that
12 we'd like to emphasize to you and -- and
13 provide as the position for the National Marine
14 Fishery Service.
15 I have with me Dr. Jim Nance, and
16 Dr. Nance is a -- is at the Galveston
17 laboratory as well. He is the division chief
18 of the fishery management branch and he deals
19 almost exclusively with the shrimp fishing
20 industry and analysis of the data and
21 keeping -- keeping the data reporting to the
22 Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council and
23 also interacting with the shrimp industry
24 and -- and speaking for our agency as well.
25 So I'd like to get started. One of the --
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1 One of the things that has come up is -- is a
2 statement that there is a conflict between
3 fisheries, the fishery service data and -- and
4 the Parks and Wildlife data, and I'd like to
5 clarify that and say that there is no conflict,
6 that, in fact, we use the same fishery
7 dependent data. The catch statistics that the
8 Texas Parks and Wildlife uses and that we use
9 are -- are collected by the same group of
10 people, and these are our port agents that we
11 have throughout the state of Texas and other --
12 other areas, so there's -- In terms of fishery
13 landings and catch per unit effort in the
14 fishery, there's -- there is no conflict in
15 that -- in that data itself.
16 Also, the -- the status of the stocks.
17 We're not -- We're not advocating that
18 recruitment overfishing has occurred. Texas
19 Parks and Wildlife is not advocating that or
20 proclaiming that recruitment overfishing has
21 occurred. We all know that this is not where
22 we want to go, and I think everybody is in
23 agreement on that that -- that we should avoid
24 this recruitment overfishing, which is -- which
25 is basically beginning to -- would be fishing
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1 to the point of impacting the parent stock, in
2 other words, the brood stock. You don't want
3 to do that. You don't want to -- You don't
4 want to lose your brood cows because those --
5 those are the ones that will give you your
6 production that you want for the next years and
7 in the future.
8 Growth overfishing we do believe has
9 occurred. Texas Parks and Wildlife says that
10 they believe that it's occurred as well.
11 Growth overfishing is basically a condition
12 where we're at the point of -- of -- of utilize
13 or -- or fishing the biomass down. We're
14 fishing it too young. We have more fishermen
15 impacting the biomass than are needed or
16 necessary and that the biomass is not allowed
17 to develop to its -- its maximum potential.
18 We believe because of this situation,
19 believe -- we believe that the -- that the gulf
20 stocks are being exploited at their maximum
21 level. There are -- There's a lot of
22 variability in it from year to year. Of
23 course, this can -- can change from year to
24 year. Sometimes you -- Some years you may be
25 taking actually too much. Other times you may
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1 not be taking as much as you could, but we
2 believe that the gulf stocks are being
3 exploited at their maximum level and that an
4 increased amount of effort would not increase
5 the yield and that, in fact, and we've done
6 analysis -- we've -- This is nothing new. We
7 have reported this many times, the -- the Gulf
8 of Mexico Fishery Management Council that
9 reduction in effort would, in fact, result in
10 almost -- almost the same amount of yield.
11 There could be some reduction in effort and we
12 still get the same amount of yield.
13 Reduction of effort in the -- in the bays
14 on small shrimp is something that -- that could
15 improve the situation. It will produce higher
16 yields or greater -- greater biomass offshore.
17 This is precisely why we had the Texas closure,
18 to allow that to -- to happen and that has --
19 that has worked. We've done some analysis for
20 the Louisiana fishery where they fish mostly
21 inshore and have shown that they, in fact, are
22 losing production or biomass that could be
23 attained for -- for the offshore.
24 The declines of -- of catch per unit
25 effort, especially in the late '80s were
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1 certainly a warning sign for everyone.
2 Basically what it said was if you're -- if
3 you're starting to get a decline in the -- the
4 catch that each fisherman has available, then
5 you're getting close to that point of -- of
6 overexploitation. You're starting to walk the
7 line of maybe getting close to even recruitment
8 overfishing. There has been through the '90s
9 the decline occurred and there has been some --
10 offshore there has been some reduction in
11 effort and, in fact, the CPUs have -- have
12 responded in the last few years and -- and come
13 back up somewhat. They're not quite at what
14 they were before the 19 -- early -- mid 1980s,
15 but this is just an example that effort is
16 still too -- too high. If -- If effort could
17 be brought down somewhat, that that would
18 improve the stocks and the -- and the ability
19 to -- to use these stocks more efficiently.
20 One of things that -- that we advocate as
21 managers, and I think that all resource
22 managers advocate, is a conservative approach.
23 One of the things that -- And we have to do
24 that. We don't have all the answers as to why
25 stocks respond from year to year, why we have a
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1 good year this year, why we had a bad year in
2 another year. We don't have all of those
3 answers and we can't predict those very
4 precisely. So because we don't have those
5 answers, we have to manage conservatively.
6 We've got to manage for -- We have to manage
7 for the worst years and we can't afford to
8 overexploit the stocks. We can't afford to --
9 to -- even going beyond -- beyond fishing
10 itself, we can't afford to destroy the -- lose
11 the habitats. That has a big effect as well.
12 We -- We need to manage conservatively. We
13 need to conserve the stock, keep a healthy
14 stock. We also -- And that means we take a
15 low-risk strategy. We're going to do those
16 things that give us the lease amount of risk.
17 We also -- Going beyond fisheries, beyond
18 the fishing itself, shrimp and other kinds
19 of -- of organisms are important in the
20 ecosystem. We want to maintain a healthy
21 ecosystem and we need to base our management
22 upon the ecosystem itself and manage -- and --
23 and keeping enough shrimp biomass to -- to
24 maintain a healthy ecosystem.
25 The -- By reduction in -- in shrimp
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1 trawling, especially in the near-shore area,
2 there are some other kinds of -- of
3 improvements that we can make. One is an
4 improvement in -- in reducing bycatch, just the
5 reduction of effort. We've done some gear
6 modifications. Everybody is -- is very much
7 aware of -- of TEDs and -- and BRDs, bycatch
8 reduction devices, and the gear technology that
9 the industry is implementing and implementing
10 very well to reduce bycatch. The industry
11 doesn't want to catch sea turtles or -- or
12 extra fish any more than anybody else. They
13 want to catch shrimp. And -- But one of the --
14 One of the things that one can -- can do to
15 improve the -- reduce the bycatch relationships
16 is -- is through closures, special very
17 targeted closures. And, of course, some of
18 those areas, one area is being proposed off
19 of -- of the near shore and where sea turtles
20 occur in higher numbers and -- and we are
21 obviously advocate the protection of endangered
22 species, which is the charge of -- of NMFS
23 is -- is an important thing that -- that a
24 closure could -- could improve.
25 Also, there's -- Over the recent decades,
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1 many fisheries throughout the nation have been
2 overcapitalized. That just means that
3 there's -- there are more boats out there and
4 more fishing and more fishing gear than -- than
5 some of the stocks can sustain. Some of them
6 have been overfished and NMFS recognizes that
7 there are stocks that have been overfished,
8 some such as the shrimp fishing stocks or
9 shrimp stocks are at maximum levels. That's --
10 That's what the NMFS' position that -- that
11 shrimp stocks are being fished at maximum
12 levels.
13 We -- We believe that a reduction in
14 capitalization of the overall fishing
15 throughout the -- throughout the nation is
16 warranted. There -- There is a goal that NMFS
17 has put into place and that's basically to
18 reduce the amount of capitalization and --
19 and fishing effort by about 15 percent.
20 Fifteen percent doesn't sound much -- like
21 much, but it is -- it's an important amount and
22 it takes us perhaps in the right direction, and
23 that goal is to achieve this within the next
24 four to five years.
25 And that's -- That's all I really have to
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1 say. Those are the ten points that -- that I
2 bring to you and I'd be happy to take some
3 questions.
4 COMMISSIONER RYAN: Dr. Zimmerman,
5 I'd like to ask you a question pertaining to
6 the drought. Do you-all notice a substantial
7 reduction in shrimp when we go through a dry
8 spell like we're going through now?
9 DR. ZIMMERMAN: There -- There's a
10 relationship between the drought and the
11 salinity in the estuaries and salinity --
12 salinities -- the estuaries are what provide
13 the nurseries for shrimp production.
14 Salinity -- Salinities can either be too high
15 or they can be too low. And there's kind of a
16 moderate range and -- and it's different for
17 different species. Brown shrimp like the
18 nursery to be a little bit saltier. This year
19 the -- because of the drought, actually it is
20 im -- it's increased the salinity in the
21 nursery and improved the -- the total nursery
22 area for brown shrimp, so we're -- That's part
23 of the reason why -- And especially up in
24 Louisiana -- part of the reason why we're
25 having a very -- or we believe that we're
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1 having a very good brown shrimp year.
2 Now, white shrimp, it's a little bit
3 different and it remains to be seen. We'll --
4 We'll see what -- what the white shrimp
5 produce. Now, if salinity -- If the drought
6 were to continue and those salinities got even
7 higher yet, say, if we -- the drought continued
8 into next year, it could have a detrimental
9 effect on -- on brown shrimp and -- and any of
10 the -- any of the shrimp. That -- That
11 actually -- We believe that that did happen
12 back in the '50s when we had a very prolonged
13 and severe drought.
14 COMMISSIONER RYAN: So the -- The
15 time of the drought really doesn't impact it,
16 say, if we went into a drought in the spring as
17 we haven't this year, but we went into it here
18 in the summer, and depending on how long it
19 would last, it's -- it's not the time of the
20 drought as much as the length of the drought?
21 DR. ZIMMERMAN: Well, the -- the
22 timing does have an effect as well and -- and I
23 want to just -- just say that -- that if you --
24 if you have relatively higher salinities in the
25 marsh, and we're not talking about extreme
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1 salinities, but -- but higher salinities in the
2 marsh during the spring, then that can increase
3 the area of nursery available to brown shrimp,
4 which -- which are using it mainly in the
5 spring. Now, if you -- if you -- White shrimp
6 need a little bit fresher water. If you
7 have -- that extends into the -- into the
8 summer and you have very high or -- or too high
9 salinities for white shrimp during the summer,
10 you could have a detrimental effect on -- So
11 the timing is -- is important as well.
12 COMMISSIONER DINKINS:
13 Mr. Chairman -- Dr. Zimmerman, thank you for
14 coming in your official capacity. It's a great
15 help. You had mentioned that NMFS has
16 responsibility for endangered species and I
17 would appreciate your sharing with us what
18 other charges or mandates or authorities the
19 National Marine Fishery Service has with regard
20 to shrimp.
21 DR. ZIMMERMAN: Well, the main
22 authority, of course, is to manage offshore
23 fisheries in -- in federal waters through the
24 Magnuson-Stevens Act and that --
25 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Isn't that
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1 regulatory authority?
2 DR. ZIMMERMAN: Yes, we have
3 regulatory authority offshore.
4 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Do you --
5 DR. ZIMMERMAN: We are -- That --
6 That -- That actually provides us the
7 regulatory authority and -- and -- and we're
8 actually prohibited from allowing the stock to
9 be overfished through that -- through that --
10 that law, so --
11 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Do you see
12 that the proposed changes that the Parks and
13 Wildlife Department stamp has brought forward
14 being consistent with the types of work that
15 you're doing in the federal waters?
16 DR. ZIMMERMAN: I do believe that. I
17 think that -- that in going back to this
18 management of our resources and taking a
19 conservative approach, I think that both of us,
20 both Parks and Wildlife and National Marine
21 Fishery Service are -- are actually required to
22 take a conservative approach, and I think we
23 are.
24 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: When I hear
25 you say "conservative," one of the things that
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1 comes to mind is the notion of conservation,
2 and is that one of the objectives that you have
3 here, resource conservation?
4 DR. ZIMMERMAN: Oh, abs --
5 absolutely. It also means that we want -- we
6 want to take a low-risk approach, so it's
7 conservative to -- to different meanings of the
8 word one -- one certainly would want to -- to
9 conserve the resources and maintain the
10 resources and that would be through
11 conservation, but -- but also from -- from just
12 a fishing standpoint, the agency is required to
13 take a low-risk approach to management, so
14 that's -- that's conservative approach as well.
15 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Is part of
16 your charge to deal with commercial fisheries?
17 DR. ZIMMERMAN: Oh, yes, it is,
18 absolutely. And -- And historically, most of
19 the offshore fisheries in federal waters have
20 been the predominant -- predominant fisheries
21 have been commercial fisheries. The
22 recreational fisheries are starting to become
23 more important offshore, but the -- but the
24 large fisheries offshore have -- have primarily
25 been -- or a large take offshore has been
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1 primarily commercial. And as a matter of fact,
2 the National Marine Fishery Service was derived
3 or -- or recreated from the Bureau of
4 Commercial Fisheries at the end of the 1960s.
5 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: And I have one
6 other question. Dr. McKinney had mentioned in
7 the review view of your credentials there are
8 an impressive number of peer-reviewed articles
9 and specifically mentioned that among these are
10 those dealing with shrimp fishery, but we
11 didn't get that same information about
12 Dr. Nance --
13 DR. ZIMMERMAN: Uh-huh.
14 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: -- and it's my
15 understanding that you have published
16 peer-reviewed articles.
17 DR. NANCE: Yes. Absolutely.
18 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: And in the
19 area of shrimp fisheries?
20 DR. NANCE: Yes. And the key -- And
21 as Roger mentioned, the National Marine Fishery
22 Service has the charge to deal with -- with
23 shrimp fisheries. It's important to remember
24 that -- that this is a stock within the Gulf of
25 Mexico. It occurs both off of Texas and off of
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1 Louisiana and -- and elsewhere. The
2 overfishing definitions that were developed
3 were developed so that we could monitor the
4 status of that stock, which is -- which is a
5 very, very important stock within the Gulf of
6 Mexico and as -- and as Dr. Zimmerman
7 mentioned, the stocks are not in a recruitment
8 overfished state, and -- so we need to avoid
9 that, and as Roger mentioned, effort has come
10 town, CPUE seems to have gone up in the -- in
11 the last part of the '90s, but those conditions
12 are still -- we need to monitor that fishery
13 because it is so important.
14 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: It's my
15 understanding that -- and in some of your
16 published works and peer-review literature that
17 you have observed that you think there is a
18 possibility of a decline in -- I think it is a
19 decline -- no, a possibility of recruitment
20 overfishing of the current shrimp stock.
21 DR. NANCE: Well, there's -- There's
22 always the possibility and, you know, as -- as
23 Dr. Zimmerman mentioned, if we've done modeling
24 where we've looked at with closures off of
25 Louisiana and off of Texas that there is
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1 potential to increase the yield because of the
2 capture of small shrimp, but that becomes an
3 allocation issue and -- which is something that
4 management needs to deal with as far as
5 recruitment overfishing, there's always that
6 possibility, but with those -- with the
7 definitions that we have in place, they all
8 seem to be above that -- that value right now.
9 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: So we're
10 looking at a possibility?
11 DR. NANCE: Well, sure.
12 DR. ZIMMERMAN: Sure.
13 DR. NANCE: And that -- And that's
14 why we have overfishing definitions --
15 DR. ZIMMERMAN: Sure. And -- And --
16 DR. NANCE: -- is so that we can
17 monitor that and make sure we don't get down to
18 those -- to those critical levels.
19 DR. ZIMMERMAN: And when you have
20 a -- a stock that is -- you deem is being
21 exploited at its maximum level, you want --
22 you're walking the -- you're getting close to
23 the line, and so that possibility is something
24 that you need to pay close attention to. So if
25 you have a stock that is much, much below
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1 the -- what you deem might be a take level or
2 maximum take level, then you would -- you would
3 be less worried about it.
4 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Mr. Chairman,
5 excuse me. I just wanted to say that
6 Dr. Zimmerman and Dr. Nance were referred to
7 in, I think, our last meeting and in some to
8 have briefing papers.
9 And I think it's a great help to have you
10 here in person to explain your position and I
11 appreciate the Department staff inviting them
12 and NMFS making it possible for you to come.
13 DR. ZIMMERMAN: Thank you very much.
14 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Are you-all
15 considering any additional regulations in
16 federal waters at this time?
17 DR. NANCE: No.
18 DR. ZIMMERMAN: No, we're not.
19 The -- The Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management
20 Council in our dealings with them are -- are
21 considering some -- some different -- different
22 kinds of -- of approaches, but at this point,
23 we're not.
24 MR. SANSOM: Dr. Zimmerman, I'd like
25 to -- to -- back to that question of
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1 recruitment overfishing, which is only a
2 possibility at this time. I would like to --
3 to -- to refer back to the comment that you
4 made earlier and that is that the step below
5 that, which is growth overfishing is occurring
6 and we agree on that point.
7 DR. ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
8 COMMISSIONER RYAN: Have you-all
9 looked the staff's recommendations as
10 presented?
11 DR. ZIMMERMAN: Not in -- Not in a
12 critical detail or critical -- as a critical.
13 We've looked at some of the rec -- but at this
14 point, we haven't reviewed them critically and
15 I don't anticipate that we would necessarily.
16 I -- I think that -- that it's -- that from our
17 standpoint, because we're -- I think that what
18 Texas does in Texas waters is something that
19 Texas needs to decide and -- and, of course,
20 we're -- what we're providing to you is
21 information for -- for the offshore waters
22 and -- and the EEZ.
23 COMMISSIONER HENRY: Dr. Zimmerman,
24 when you were questioned about the issues
25 relating to ownership of the resources
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1 themselves in the waters, how do you generally
2 address that briefly.
3 DR. ZIMMERMAN: These are public
4 resources. They're the -- and they're owned by
5 the public. That's basically how we -- we
6 approach that.
7 COMMISSIONER HENRY: Does
8 Dr. Gracia's comments with regard to the
9 declines that he specified and happened during
10 the '80s in Mexico cause your Department any
11 additional concerns for the Texas and upper
12 gulf areas?
13 DR. ZIMMERMAN: Well, it's -- It is
14 an example of how changes in effort in one
15 place, increased effort in one place can affect
16 the catch in another place and if you reduce
17 that amount of effort, well, you can -- you
18 can -- It's an example of how the inshore
19 fishery can affect the offshore fishery, and
20 that's as -- basically it's a good example of
21 that.
22 CHAIRMAN BASS: Dr. Zimmerman, I had
23 a question that I'd like to ask you and/or
24 Dr. Nance. The -- One of the first things that
25 you did was clarify for us that the data that
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1 you work off of is basically identical to the
2 data that the state is working off of. My --
3 DR. ZIMMERMAN: And let me just make
4 sure that we're clear on this.
5 CHAIRMAN BASS: The same sources.
6 DR. ZIMMERMAN: We're talking about
7 the same source and we're talking about the
8 catch data, the fishery dependent data.
9 CHAIRMAN BASS: Would -- Would you be
10 able to give us a professional opinion as to
11 whether the: a) quality and b) quantity of the
12 data that is available for Fisheries biologists
13 to use is -- is adequate or of -- of enough
14 sufficient quantity and quality to make the
15 kinds of management decisions that -- that
16 we're looking at making? And I say this
17 realizing every scientist would like to have
18 more data and feel better about their theories
19 and that --
20 DR. ZIMMERMAN: That's exactly right.
21 CHAIRMAN BASS: -- but you know --
22 DR. ZIMMERMAN: We never -- We never
23 have enough data.
24 CHAIRMAN BASS: Right.
25 DR. ZIMMERMAN: We always like to
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1 have that extra piece of data that can sort of
2 make our decisions much -- much more -- we can
3 make our decisions more confidently. On the
4 other hand, the collection of the data is -- is
5 very extensive. There are port agents
6 throughout the state that -- that take data in
7 the major fishing ports and they -- they go to
8 dealers and the dealers are required by law to
9 -- to report their -- the landings that come
10 into their -- to each -- each dealer. So
11 that's -- that's actually a fairly good --
12 good -- The landings are fairly good, almost a
13 census of -- of -- of the amount that's -- that
14 is caught. We do do some interviews and -- and
15 to -- to find out where -- where fishermen are
16 catching and how many hours they fish here or
17 fish there. That data could be -- could be
18 improved to allow us to get better handles on
19 catch per unit effort, but even that is a very
20 robust data source and it's gone through
21 many -- many reviews. We -- We have -- Let me
22 tell you, this question has been asked many,
23 many times, and so it has been reviewed, it's
24 been picked over and the flaws have been
25 pointed out and we've certainly tried to deal
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1 with them increasing number of interviews and
2 that sort of thing as -- as best we can.
3 The data that we have, and this is true
4 anywhere, are the data that we have. We -- We
5 have to -- Whatever decision we have to make,
6 we have to make on those. We'd always like to
7 have more data and -- and better data. We --
8 We would fully recognize that. But you have to
9 go on the data that you have.
10 CHAIRMAN BASS: And basically, the
11 data that we have on the shrimp fishery is -- I
12 think you used the word "robust" in both
13 quantity and the quality is -- is -- is pretty
14 good?
15 DR. ZIMMERMAN: It's -- It's a robust
16 data set.
17 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you.
18 Any other questions for these gentlemen
19 who were kind enough to -- to share their time
20 and expertise with us?
21 MR. SANSOM: Thank you both very
22 much.
23 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you very much.
24 DR. ZIMMERMAN: Thank you.
25 DR. NANCE: Thank you.
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1 CHAIRMAN BASS: We're very
2 appreciative.
3 The chair would also like to take time to
4 recognize the Representative Solis from the
5 Valley has -- has joined us at this morning's
6 hearing, and I understand that we look forward
7 to -- to hearing from him in the afternoon
8 session and we appreciate his participation and
9 interest in what we do.
10 DR. MCKINNEY: Mr. Chairman, at this
11 time, I'd like to introduce Hal Osburn, head of
12 coastal fisheries to lay out before you the
13 staff proposal.
14 MR. OSBURN: Thank you,
15 Mr. Chairman. Members, I'm Hal Osburn, coastal
16 fisheries division director. As you recall,
17 last spring staff completed a comprehensive
18 scientific review and outreach effort for
19 improving the management of shrimp. Following
20 a meeting of the Shrimp Advisory Committee, the
21 Commission's Regulations Committee at their May
22 31st meeting approved a set of proposed shrimp
23 regulations for publication in the
24 Texas Register. Staff held eight public
25 hearings and we were attempting to gather
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1 additional stakeholder input on those
2 proposals. The hearings were well attended,
3 had a wild diversity of opinions, and I would
4 note that Commissioners Watson, Avila, Angelo,
5 and Ryan attended some of these hearings and I
6 thank them for that. And again, in an effort
7 to broaden the outreach process, staff brought
8 together the 12-member Shrimp Advisory
9 Committee for two separate meetings. To
10 enhance these discussions with a greater
11 diversity of stakeholders we also put together
12 a 14-member shrimp working group to be
13 included.
14 Let me summarize the comments that we
15 received this summer. We've had over 5500
16 individual comments. About 80 percent of those
17 were from in-state. Over 85 percent of those
18 comments spoke to the entire package of the
19 shrimp proposals and we had 96 percent of -- of
20 those comments were in favor of the complete
21 set of -- of the proposals. Many individuals
22 also made reference to specific proposals, most
23 numerous were in regards to the -- to the new
24 bay and fishery areas, the gear restrictions in
25 the gulf, and the additional time and area of
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1 closures in the gulf.
2 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Mr. Osburn,
3 how -- how -- if you said, how many of the --
4 or what percentage of the favorable comments do
5 you think came from people that are engaged in
6 the commercial fishery.
7 MR. OSBURN: The percent that came
8 from folks that were in the fishery --
9 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: In the
10 commercial shipping end.
11 MR. OSBURN: I don't -- I don't know
12 if we have -- They didn't -- They didn't
13 necessarily identify themselves, but we did
14 have -- We did have a num -- I would call it a
15 substantial number of folks that spoke in favor
16 of some of the proposals that were engaged in
17 the fishery.
18 This summer's comments period obviously
19 did -- did generate a lot of -- a lot of people
20 with a lot of strong opinions about the shrimp
21 fishery and I don't think that should come as
22 any surprise.
23 First, the -- Shrimp are a very valuable
24 commodity and -- and there has been major
25 capital investment made in an effort to harvest
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1 that commodity.
2 Second, the shrimp fleet has grown in size
3 and scope over the years to the point where
4 it's capable of having major impacts on our
5 public resources and habitats. I think the
6 Commission recognized this when they adopted
7 the Texas Shrimp Fishery Management Plan in
8 1989, and that plan established a clear
9 management strategy and that continues to guide
10 the staff in trying to resolve the problems
11 within the fishery and the conflicts among the
12 stakeholders on this public resource.
13 Very quickly, those management strategies
14 call for accelerating the voluntary license
15 buyback that in the -- in the limited entry
16 program created by the legislature in 1995
17 protecting juvenile shrimp to allow growth to a
18 larger size, greater survival of shrimp to
19 maturity to increase the spawning success and
20 reducing the bycatch of the nontargeted species
21 as we try to manage biodiversity in our bays
22 and gulf. And finally, where possible,
23 increase the harvest efficiencies and
24 opportunities within the fishery.
25 I will tell you that formulating rules to
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1 achieve all of these goals is difficult because
2 it's not strictly a biological ecological
3 decision. Sociology and economics have to be
4 factored in. However, after review of all of
5 the relevant public comments and the best
6 scientific information available to us, staff
7 does have some conclusions and recommendations
8 for the Commission.
9 We conclude that there is a valid
10 scientific basis for shrimp overfishing
11 concerns. For example, the increasing trend in
12 the harvest of the smallest size shrimp which
13 documents growth overfishing. Shrimping
14 effort, particularly in the bays has increased
15 dramatically in the last several decades and we
16 believe that that needs to be reversed for
17 long-term benefits. And the declining catch
18 rates in the bay and gulf are a clear
19 indication that a proactive management strategy
20 is warranted.
21 All of the original proposals have some
22 merit in achieving our objectives. But we do
23 believe it's possible to simplify the proposals
24 without sacrificing scientific integrity, so we
25 offer the following revised proposals for
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1 Commission action:
2 First, we would recommend two
3 liberalizations to take effect as soon as
4 possible: Increase the net size for seabobs to
5 34 feet and extend the bait-fish season by
6 adding the month of May.
7 To address conservation needs, the Shrimp
8 Fishery Management Plan basically tells us that
9 time and area closures are the preferred
10 management tools. And I will tell you that
11 thanks to our -- our year-around coastwide
12 department monitoring programs, staff had
13 available to them 17 consecutive years of trawl
14 data to evaluate the -- the areas best suited
15 for looking at area closures for juvenile
16 shrimp nurseries.
17 Let me -- Let me show you an example of
18 those data for Aransas Bay going through the
19 time series of the year. The orange and red
20 dots represent the highest densities of the
21 juveniles and we had -- we looked at these data
22 for the entire coast. Basically these data
23 represent about 27,000 trawl samples taken
24 by -- by this department.
25 With that in mind, we recommend to be
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1 effective by December the adoption of all of
2 the originally proposed new nursery areas and
3 bait bays on the upper coast with the exception
4 of a small decrease in the proposed nursery
5 area in East Bay, which is part of the
6 Galveston bay system and that would allow for
7 the continuation of a small boat bait fishery
8 near that area. On the lower coast, we
9 recommend adoption of all of the original bait
10 and nursery areas.
11 For time closures, we will continue to
12 recommend a shortening of the four-month fall
13 bay system -- bay season by 15 days. The near
14 shore gulf fishery is currently open 8 1/2
15 months of the year. We recommend reducing this
16 by 30 days during the winter, and we would
17 recommend these rules be effective by this
18 December.
19 Bycatch reduction devices are recommended
20 for all trawls except commercial and
21 recreational bait shrimp trawls. And the
22 federal rules for turtle excluder devices in
23 gulf trawls are recommended as state rules as
24 well. And these rules we would recommend
25 delaying until September of 2001.
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1 Before showing you the staff
2 recommendation on the Gulf proposals, I'd like
3 to review for you a range of options we
4 received during the comment period. The
5 original proposal created a north and south
6 zone inside of five nautical miles. There was
7 a two-net restriction in the north and a
8 complete closure in the south. We received two
9 proposals from the Vietnamese-American
10 Shrimper's Association. The first suggested a
11 total closure year around within one nautical
12 mile with a stipulation that none of the other
13 bay or gulf proposals be adopted. Their second
14 proposal was to apply the two-net restriction
15 inside of two nautical miles coastwide year
16 around with the previously noted stipulations.
17 The Texas Shrimp Association offered a proposal
18 that prohibited all shrimping inside of seven
19 fathoms from December to July. This depth is
20 about a mile and a half off of South Padre
21 Island, but it stretches out to over nine miles
22 off of the Galveston area.
23 They did support nearly all of the
24 original bay proposals, restrictions and, in
25 fact, they suggested a dead bait quota.
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1 Sierra Club and Environmental Defense
2 recommended the five-nautical-mile closure be
3 year around along the whole coast.
4 And two other proposals made included a
5 two-net restriction out to nine nautical miles
6 year around and a total shrimping prohibition
7 out to nine nautical miles year around.
8 And seeking to balance this wide range of
9 stakeholder interest while still achieving our
10 principal management goals, staff offers the
11 following recommendation:
12 The current year around nighttime closure
13 inside of seven fathoms would be changed to
14 five nautical miles. Inside of three nautical
15 miles coastwide the two-net restriction would
16 apply year around. There would be one
17 exception to this standardized rule: In the
18 South Zone from December 1st to July 15th or
19 the opening of the summer gulf season,
20 shrimping would be prohibited inside of five
21 nautical miles. Because shrimping is also
22 closed or would already be closed from
23 December 1st to February 15th and from May 15th
24 to about July 15th, this exception essentially
25 adds only three additional months of closure
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1 from mid-May -- from mid-February to mid-May.
2 We would recommend that the two-net rule
3 take effect next summer when the gulf season
4 opens and that the other closures would be
5 effective by this December.
6 Final staff recommendation would be the
7 adoption of the fee increases as originally
8 proposed. This proposal package, Mr. Chairman,
9 even though it is revised from the original,
10 still offers substantial conservation benefits,
11 and I'd -- I'd had like to highlight a few of
12 those.
13 In combination with the previously adopted
14 $3 fee increase in the salt water stamp, there
15 will a $10 -- There will basically be
16 $10 million available over the next five years
17 to accelerate the voluntary license buyback.
18 If we can achieve our goal and return
19 effort levels to those of the mid '70s, the
20 shrimp fishery can expect substantial increases
21 in their catch per unit effort. Well over
22 1 million acres of marsh, bay, and gulf bottom
23 habitat will receive additional protection
24 from trawling each year with these revised
25 proposals.
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1 Bycatch reduction will be substantial. A
2 very conservative estimate of 10 million pounds
3 of all marine species would be saved. In the
4 bays alone, that means millions of blue crabs,
5 Atlantic croaker, sand sea trout. I would note
6 that the lower number on the -- on the flounder
7 actually reflects the stressed condition of our
8 flounder stocks, but 200,000 fish saved is
9 about equivalent to half of the current
10 commercial recreational and -- and commercial
11 and recreational landings combined each year,
12 so it's a substantial number of fish. We would
13 also propose that the Department consider
14 purchasing the initial set of BRDs for the
15 fleet.
16 These rules will also have, in fact,
17 benefits for the shrimp fishery by reducing
18 growth overfishing through the deferred harvest
19 of small shrimp and by increased spawning.
20 In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, as beneficial
21 as these rule changes can be, they still not --
22 will not have created an ideal shrimp fishery,
23 but it's important to give them a chance to
24 work and we would like to -- to basically
25 monitor their impacts for at least five years
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1 while providing you some regular status
2 reports. We would also like to create better
3 stakeholder dialogue in hopes that
4 co-management with the industry can -- can come
5 closer to reality. We also think it's
6 important that
7 the -- that the industry begin talking about
8 limited entry in the gulf fleet as a way of
9 maximizing benefits to those shrimpers, and at
10 the same time, we want to look to get a better
11 scientific handle on the biodiversity that
12 we -- we know we have in our -- our near shore
13 gulf waters.
14 With that, Mr. Chairman, staff recommends
15 the following motion for referral to the full
16 commission. I'd be happy to answer any
17 questions.
18 CHAIRMAN BASS: Questions at this
19 time?
20 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: How -- How soon
21 would you expect measurable results to be
22 definable if the -- as these rules take
23 effect?
24 MR. OSBURN: Well, you have to deal
25 with the variation that -- that Mother Nature
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1 throws at you every year. That's partly why we
2 recommended five years so that I wouldn't be
3 showing you a year-to-year variation. I'd
4 certainly want to look at it every year, but we
5 think with bycatch that it can be -- you can
6 see that very quickly. We would like to think
7 that we could measure that in our -- our bag
8 seines on the -- some of these juvenile
9 species.
10 DR. MCKINNEY: Commissioner, that's
11 one of the reasons that -- that we would -- I
12 recommended to you that we use some of out
13 buyback -- back funds initially to get those
14 BRDs out there right away so we can see some of
15 those benefits directly. I think that's --
16 That would be the first area we could see some
17 positive benefits. Commissioner, in one -- You
18 had asked the question about public comments so
19 forth -- and Paul Hammerschmidt tried to put
20 some of that information together and this --
21 and if I'm -- Paul, if I'm mis -- misquoting
22 this, please correct me, but most of the public
23 input from the industry came during those
24 public hearings and most of that was specific
25 to different issue, but those -- those who
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1 spoke on the rules package as a whole, and we
2 can't really break this down between industry
3 and others, but there were 23 comments in favor
4 of all the rules and 33 opposed to all the
5 rules. That's -- That's the best we can break
6 down from that that gives you some indications.
7 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: From the public
8 comments.
9 DR. MCKINNEY: Public comments at
10 those hearings.
11 CHAIRMAN BASS: Ms. Dinkins.
12 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Yes.
13 Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would appreciate
14 your talking about the authority the Commission
15 has for adopting these proposals, and
16 specifically, I would like to know whether we
17 have a basis for regulation on -- for economic
18 reasons.
19 MR. OSBURN: Actually, the -- these
20 rules are promulgated under seven different
21 chapters of the Parks and Wildlife Code.
22 Chapter 47 deals with the commercial fees,
23 which you can regulate. Chapter 61 is the
24 management of all wildlife resources, 66 is
25 finfish management, 67 is the nongame fish and
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1 wildlife species, 68 is an endangered and
2 threatened species, Chapter 77 speaks
3 specifically to shrimp, and Chapter 78 is -- is
4 crabs.
5 Chapter 77, in particular, tells us that you
6 can regulate the catching, possession,
7 purchase, and sale of -- of shrimp after
8 adoption of the FMP, the Fishery Management
9 Plan, which was done in 1989.
10 Economics is -- is not to be the sole
11 reason for making rules, but economics was
12 pointed out very clearly in the statute and in
13 the FMP as important to the management balance
14 and that is why optimal yield was given by the
15 legislature to the Department as their goal
16 rather than maximum sustainable yield, which
17 would have been strictly biological. So
18 optimum yield specifically tells us to deal
19 with -- with economics as -- as part of our
20 formula.
21 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Could you
22 summarize what you see as the most important
23 biological reasons for recommending these
24 proposals?
25 MR. OSBURN: Yes, ma'am. It -- It
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1 is -- It is for the -- the long-term risk
2 management. We do have good years and bad
3 years environmentally, but we have a fleet that
4 is, particularly in the Gulf, without limited
5 entry, is increasing its capacity. It's
6 increasing the size of the boats, the numbers
7 of nets, and targeting populations of shrimp
8 that were not targeted historically, and with
9 that uncertainty and those populations, there
10 is a risk of -- of depletion that I think is
11 the most important thing that we ought to deal
12 with is the depletion of the shrimp;
13 secondarily, the bycatch and overall
14 biodiversity in our bays that we have.
15 Frankly, most of us don't know what kind of
16 biodiversity we can have in the bays because we
17 have lived with so many decades of -- of -- of
18 heavy fishing pressure that we don't have the
19 same knowledge of an unfished state, so
20 reducing that bycatch in the bays and in the
21 Gulf will give us an opportunity to -- to
22 return to levels, I think, of productivity for
23 other fisheries that will benefit those other
24 fisheries, recreational, commercial alike.
25 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: And you would
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1 see the authority for addressing the bycatch
2 issue to be contained in what the legislature
3 has given the Commission within the chapters
4 that you cited earlier?
5 MR. OSBURN: Yes, ma'am. That's why
6 we -- we listed -- That's why we listed all of
7 those chapters, crabs, finfish as well as
8 shrimp and the other species, so it's a package
9 when -- when -- when the -- when the fishery
10 operates out there, they don't just take
11 shrimp, and so we have to manage for everything
12 that they are harvesting.
13 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Do you see
14 these proposals being consistent with the
15 Shrimp fishery management Plan?
16 MR. OSBURN: Absolutely. That is
17 the -- the guideline that we took them from.
18 That's why we simplified them to time and area
19 closures in many cases, but the Shrimp Fishery
20 Management Plan spoke to -- to the goals of
21 every one that -- of these proposals is trying
22 to achieve.
23 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: In talking in
24 terms of a five-year study, are you implying
25 that picking that date that we would not
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1 address this for another five years or is there
2 room in that that if the study indicates that
3 there is some trend of a need-to-need action
4 that you might yet come back within five years
5 to the Commission?
6 MR. OSBURN: The -- Our staff
7 certainly would -- cannot take away your
8 authority to deal issues on an emergency basis
9 or even with new information. What we will --
10 what I would like to see is a vision of
11 co-management is that the industry when we work
12 with them actually comes forward with
13 recommendations that have a conservation value,
14 but also a benefit for their fishery and the
15 initiative in the next five years for new rules
16 would come from the industry and that we would
17 facilitate that process. This was our
18 initiative. We spent two years on it. We
19 believe that -- that it is good overall for the
20 long-term fishery, but it was obviously a
21 process that -- that once it's gone through
22 needs to be monitored and studied for -- for a
23 while and it's a very large comprehensive
24 package. It's complex and -- and confusing,
25 and -- but it's a very big fishery and it --
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1 and it took that to do it, a holistic view on
2 this, and -- and we certainly are -- are ready
3 to -- to sit back and look at it a little
4 closer or we've been looking at it close, but
5 we're -- we're ready to monitor the impacts of
6 what we've done.
7 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Just two more
8 quick things: Do you know what the cost of the
9 BRDs will be?
10 MR. OSBURN: Our best estimate is for
11 the device itself is somewhere between $40 and
12 $50.
13 DR. MCKINNEY: Unless we can buy them
14 in bulk is we get to buy larger.
15 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: About how many
16 would you be purchasing?
17 MR. OSBURN: Three to 4,000.
18 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Thank you. My
19 other -- My only other item was could we have a
20 copy of the presentation that Dr. Gracia gave
21 us?
22 MR. MCKINNEY: Absolutely.
23 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Especially the
24 time lines.
25 MR. MCKINNEY: Absolutely.
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1 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Thank you,
2 Mr. Chairman.
3 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you.
4 COMMISSIONER WATSON: Well, I'd just
5 like to, you know, say how much I appreciate,
6 and I think the whole Commission does, all the
7 effort that -- that Hal and Larry put into
8 this. You know, I made a comment that I think
9 when Hal started this process, he was
10 six-foot-four and, you know, he's -- he's --
11 he's really gotten a lot of abuse and, you
12 know, I really appreciate that because, you
13 know, that's something we can't put in your
14 paycheck, but, you know, I think that you've
15 done a great job on continuing to keep us
16 focused on the fact that, you know, this is a
17 resource that residents of Texas, this is not
18 an asset of the shrimping industry, and you
19 know, what we need to do is to maintain the
20 integrity of this fishery for all the residents
21 of Texas.
22 MR. MCKINNEY: Thank you,
23 Commissioner. I would -- I would add to that,
24 too, I've appreciated -- we -- certainly the
25 staff has appreciated the Commission's
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1 attention to this and those of you who could
2 participate and come to these hearings, we
3 greatly appreciate it and I would be remiss if
4 I didn't point out Commissioner Watson. We
5 drug him all over the state and all times and
6 hours of night and I think that -- that has
7 been very valuable for us and supportive and
8 hopefully it has been for you.
9 COMMISSIONER HENRY: May I ask just a
10 general question? Particularly from the
11 hearings, were you able to clear any other
12 deficiencies that may have existed of
13 contradictions in terms of correspondence that
14 we have received either directly or through the
15 hearings with regard to information that was
16 presented?
17 MR. MCKINNEY: Well, I hope so. In
18 that -- that document that's in your packet
19 talking about criticisms, we -- those were some
20 that had consistently come up with either
21 bycatch or agreement with NMFS. Hopefully
22 today we've -- we've addressed and adequate --
23 addressed adequately the issue at National
24 Marine Fishery Service and some of the others.
25 Right. Yes, I think we did, and we learned a
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1 lot. In the proposal that's before you from --
2 that Hal and the staff has put together now
3 reflects -- reflects that input that occurred
4 at those times and so hopefully it does do
5 that.
6 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: I've been, and
7 I think the whole Commission's been quite
8 concerned about the impression that we've
9 gotten that the people in the shrimping
10 industry, at least a goodly number of them,
11 have come to question the -- the sincerity of
12 our approach or the Department's approach, the
13 fairness, the hidden agendas and so on, and I
14 think one of the maybe good things that's come
15 out of this so far, at least, is that staff and
16 the Commission have, I think, clearly
17 demonstrated a strong effort to dispel that
18 concern, but obviously it's still present, and
19 so I think it's extremely important that for
20 the success of this whole effort and for what
21 you and Mr. Osburn has stated as his goal to
22 have subsequent activity be a team effort, if
23 that's going to occur, we're going to have to
24 do more to establish a feeling of trust again
25 between the industry and the Department that
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1 isn't there today.
2 And to the extent that what we say has any
3 bearing on that, I think all of us would --
4 would say immediately that we do not have a
5 hidden agenda, that our concern is about the --
6 the assets, as Commissioner Watson has said,
7 that belong to the state as a whole, but we
8 certainly recognize that each part of that --
9 of the stakeholders has -- has an equal right
10 to their part of it, and -- and there's no
11 intent to do harm to the shrimping industry
12 itself. In fact, what we're trying to do, if
13 we do it correctly, will end up benefiting the
14 commercial industry. So if they don't believe
15 that, if there's a complete lack of trust, then
16 it's going to be very difficult to reach the --
17 the goals that we're all seeking.
18 DR. MCKINNEY: Point well taken and
19 heard, sir. Appreciate it.
20 CHAIRMAN BASS: If there will not any
21 other questions of comments at this time, we do
22 have eight individuals that we've invited to
23 give comments representing some of the
24 stakeholders in this issue. Obviously,
25 we're, in our public hearing this afternoon,
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1 going to have opportunity to hear from -- from
2 far larger numbers of people with interests in
3 the shrimping issue as well as -- as other
4 issues before the Department.
5 Given the -- the fact that our public
6 hearing is set to start at -- at one o'clock
7 and between now and then the Commission's
8 agenda includes a finance meeting as well as an
9 executive session, I'm going to ask those that
10 we've invited to -- to speak on the panel to
11 please keep your comments as succinct as
12 possible. We're not going to have the traffic
13 light system running formally, but if you could
14 try to limit yourself to three minutes or so.
15 That would allow us to get through this section
16 in a -- in a half hour of time and not
17 inconvenience those people who are planning to
18 show up here at one o'clock for the beginning
19 of a public meeting by setting our entire
20 schedule back too far.
21 That said, I'm going to ask two of you
22 to -- to come at a time simply because we have
23 two chairs and two microphones and we can kind
24 of switch off as we go and be as expedient as
25 possible, and this is not any effort to -- to
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1 create any alliances or anything here. I'm
2 simply going to call you two at a time in the
3 order that -- that your names are on the sheet
4 in front of me, so it's completely random, but
5 if Julius Collins representing the Texas Shrimp
6 Association and Richard Moore from PISCES could
7 please come forward and -- and give us what
8 comments that -- that you have at an expedient
9 manner, and, of course, obviously you'd be
10 welcome to speak this afternoon and tomorrow on
11 this -- this issue as -- as public comment
12 allows.
13 You have the floor.
14 MR. COLLINS: Thank you, very much,
15 Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee, I'm
16 Julius Collins, president of the Texas Shrimp
17 Association and I'm an owner of offshore gulf
18 trawlers. My family has been in the shrimp
19 harvesting business for over 100 years, so I'm
20 not new at the game. My statement today is to
21 advise that the Texas Shrimp Association
22 supports status quo, no shrimp to be taken by
23 the Regulation Committee on the proposed shrimp
24 regulation. First, my reason for status quo
25 there are too many discrepancies between the
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1 Department's data, National Marine Fishery's
2 data and the shrimp fishery data that needs to
3 be clarified. We see no scientific basis to
4 conclude that the Texas shrimp fishery will
5 collapse. Second, TSA testified before the
6 Senate Natural Resource Committee and outlined
7 the misrepresentation of the Department of the
8 data and the graph used to justify the
9 decision. We submitted a copy for the record.
10 Other fisheries' biologists have presented
11 testimony at public hearings references and
12 discrepancies and misrepresentation of the data
13 by the Department.
14 Third, we have experienced changing after
15 change, in addition, deletions and
16 modifications to the proposal. We have
17 prepared and presented testimony explanation
18 and we made recommendation. I don't know if
19 the recommendations were exactly what TSA has
20 done, I don't believe it was, but we did make
21 recommendation. And I'm not -- I'm here today
22 again to plead and address even more minutes
23 changed of the proposal.
24 I want to bring to your attention that the
25 current shrimp data selected by the lead agent,
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1 NMFS, which you saw two members here and they
2 presented real well, brown shrimp remains the
3 dominant species throughout the years 1960
4 through now. Overall, catch per unit of
5 effort, CPUE that he talked about for the
6 shrimp had declined since 1960; however, the
7 last ten years it is coming back and has
8 increased.
9 Overall fishing effort for brown shrimp
10 has declined or -- by 35 percent in the Gulf.
11 Fishing effort has declined by 35 percent.
12 Recruitment levels for 1998 and 1999 were the
13 highest since 1991. Parent stock levels for
14 brown shrimp were up in 1999 over 300 million.
15 That's the parent stock. The overfishing
16 transfer is only 125 million.
17 Fishing effort for white shrimp has also
18 declined. Parent stock for that species is
19 around 800 mill -- million. The level above --
20 in the rare overfishing traphold is only
21 330 million.
22 Growth overfishing occurs throughout the
23 five -- five Gulf states and Mexico, not just
24 Texas. There has been accepted practice to
25 meet consumption further for a
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1 supply-and-demand market for all-sized
2 category.
3 Let me go down and we'll skip a few, so I
4 can hurry up with this. The Department's
5 report failed to note that in the event or an
6 indication of a species collapse, there was
7 safeguards already placed on the Gulf of Mexico
8 Fishery's Management Council, which -- a plan
9 which Dr. Zimmerman related to you, and this
10 you can have the complete data on this.
11 Sea turtles. The environmentalists refuse
12 to accept that the shrimp fishery has met the
13 mandate for sea turtle devices, turtle excluder
14 device, on the Endangered Spec Act -- Species
15 Act, and the fisheries operate on the Section 7
16 consolation with the biology group opinion that
17 allows an incidental take.
18 More turtles are killed by cold weather
19 speedboat props, shark bites, dredging,
20 recreational and commercial hook and line,
21 entangle of monofilament lines and even gill
22 nets than there are with shrimp trawls now.
23 There should be no recommendation for the
24 Department to close area for shrimp in Texas
25 territory or sea to protect sea turtles. If
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1 that be the case, then the Parks and Wildlife
2 Department should put that in a no-take zone
3 where nobody could take not only the shrimp
4 boats should be affected, everybody that's
5 detrimental to the sea turtle should be
6 affected, also.
7 We believe the Department should be
8 advising committee that sea turtle population
9 are healthy and recovering. Rancho Nuevo in
10 Mexico, over 6,000 nests this year compared to
11 3,000 last year. That's 100 percent increase.
12 The general public seems never to get the
13 message that no matter what precautions are
14 taken, there will be sea turtles spawning --
15 nesting and stranding that will occur
16 throughout the United States' gulf -- States'
17 coastal states.
18 In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, this proposed
19 shrimp regulation has created a barrage of
20 e-mail, as you've seen so many people against,
21 and Internet and faxed comments from people
22 throughout the nation that have no concept of
23 its contents, but simply to show numbers in
24 support or opposition to apply peer pressure
25 on -- for personal agenda gains. The Gulf
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1 Council and National Marine Fishery Service
2 adopted a policy: Written comments and
3 proposals must be mailed to the designated
4 agency proposing the rules. Comments may also
5 be submitted via fax with the original
6 immediately followed by mail. Comments will
7 not be accepted if submitted by e-mail or
8 Internet. We recommend the Department and
9 Commission honor this policy and remove all
10 e-mails, Internets, and faxes that do not have
11 supporting original by mail as invalid comments
12 on these proposed shrimp regulations.
13 And that concludes my presentation. I'll
14 try to answer questions if you-all have.
15 CHAIRMAN BASS: Mr. Collins, I
16 appreciate your efforts to -- to be a speed
17 speaker.
18 MR. COLLINS: I'm not -- I'm not used
19 to being a speed speaker. In fact, I -- I'm
20 very slow.
21 CHAIRMAN BASS: I was very -- I think
22 we're all able to -- to, as you were speaking,
23 read over some of the parts that you -- that
24 you omitted from your -- your verbal
25 presentation and your -- your handout and I
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1 appreciate that.
2 Are there any direct questions for
3 Mr. Collins prior to hearing Mr. Moore's
4 comments?
5 Thank you very much, sir.
6 MR. COLLINS: Thank you very much.
7 CHAIRMAN BASS: I appreciate you
8 coming.
9 MR. COLLINS: You want me to stay
10 with you and fight? No.
11 CHAIRMAN BASS: No. Actually, I'm
12 going to ask you to give your chair up for
13 Jimmy Evans who can come and -- and --
14 MR. COLLINS: All right.
15 CHAIRMAN BASS: -- get himself
16 situated while we hear from Mr. Moore.
17 The floor is yours, Mr. Moore.
18 MR. MOORE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
19 My name is Richard Moore and I'm representing
20 mostly a bay inshore fishery. First of all,
21 I'd like to take this opportunity to thank the
22 Parks and Wildlife for helping us in what we
23 had a real crisis. Since our season opened
24 August the 15th, Galveston Bay has been covered
25 up with the bryzoan sea grass. Through the
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1 efforts of the fishermen and Parks and
2 Wildlife, we petitioned the National Marine
3 Fisheries to give us an exemption from the
4 TEDs, and even the director of law enforcement
5 called me and says he'd never seen the federal
6 government move so fast. So it was with the
7 efforts of Parks and Wildlife and others, and
8 we want to take this time to thank them because
9 it does mean an awful lot to the fishermen of
10 Galveston Bay.
11 Now, to the business at hand. We've sat
12 here around we've heard, Mr. Osburn, Mr. Nance,
13 the scientists that -- that take care of these
14 fisheries. What I would like to have done is
15 started this back 18 months ago whenever we
16 could have had talks with these agencies, the
17 fishermen. We have a thing in place right now
18 called the Shrimp Advisory Committee that was
19 not utilized and we don't understand why. All
20 this was done and the fishermen knew absolutely
21 nothing about it. That's where we're talking
22 about trust comes in. The Shrimp Advisory
23 Committee, and there's also a review board
24 that's been elected by the peers is in
25 operation and works with Parks and Wildlife,
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1 but they saw fit to ignore us and the Shrimp
2 Advisory Plan Committee. They went to the
3 environmental groups. They knew -- They knew
4 more about our business than we did, and I
5 don't think that's right, and that's where
6 trust comes in.
7 The modification of the plan, the original
8 plans is something that can be dealt with and
9 it needs to be dealt with. We do not have a
10 biological problem in our shrimp -- in our
11 shrimp fishery. Are we headed that way? I
12 don't know.
13 You know, someone said if the first time
14 man went back and got the second shrimp because
15 he liked to eat it we were headed toward
16 overfishing. You walk out that door and you
17 take two steps to the north, you're headed to
18 the North Pole. It don't mean you're going to
19 get there. I don't know.
20 I'm a fisherman. Sometimes I don't even
21 know what it takes to catch them. You try, but
22 I've seen if you look on your back pages of
23 that little thing I just gave you, from 1960 to
24 1999, nobody knows what they do, because if
25 you'll at the predictions and the catch rate,
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1 none of it's ever the same. You go from good
2 years to bad years. I don't care who manages
3 this resource. Unless you simply annihilate
4 it, the habitat, and pollute it, I don't know
5 what you'll do with it.
6 I'm asking this Commission to be very
7 careful whenever you vote to be sure you know
8 all the facts, know these definitions, growth
9 overfishing, recruitment overfishing,
10 allocation, because that's where this is
11 boiling down to is allocation. The mass is
12 there, the product is there, we have no
13 problem. A lot of the time we have problem
14 finding it because those little devils just
15 disappear. There's nothing we can do about
16 that. We have had a drought problem. We
17 have -- I have been fishing for over 40 years
18 and it's nothing that I hadn't seen before, and
19 you know how to deal with that.
20 My question to you is be very careful
21 because you're dealing with a lot of people's
22 lives. This is an allocation problem. It
23 always has been. So when I -- Whenever you
24 vote, I ask you to be informed and to vote your
25 conscience.
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1 Thank you.
2 CHAIRMAN BASS: Questions for
3 Mr. Moore?
4 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Thank you,
5 Mr. Chairman. Exactly what do you think the
6 impact of the current proposal will be on the
7 shrimp fishery?
8 MR. MOORE: Just a few quick facts.
9 With the closure of water, if passed,
10 57 percent of Texas bays will be off limits to
11 bay shrimp licensed holders. That's 57 percent
12 of the water that we have to work in will no
13 longer be available to bay licensed holders.
14 Bait license holders, yes, but not bay license
15 holders. You know, it -- it kind of makes you
16 nervous whenever you look at these -- some of
17 these proposals and you wonder where they come
18 from.
19 And like I said, I've been shrimping for
20 over 40 years and to come from where I came
21 from where everything was open, nothing was
22 sacred, 24-hour shrimping, we went through a
23 time frame in -- in the '80s with the influx of
24 the Asian community, our inshore fishery went
25 up to over 5,000 boats. That's way too many.
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1 Five-thousand-two-hundred-and-something
2 licenses were issued in 1981 through 1984.
3 That's too many. Nobody can sustain that.
4 Attrition took over and the license
5 started coming down. In 1995, we developed
6 limited entry. Limited entry was going to be
7 the panacea. We get that, boy, and we've got
8 it, no more problems. We've got that and it's
9 working. We have reduced -- We have reduced
10 shrimping effort in our bays by 74.7 percent
11 since 1984. Seventy -- 74.7 percent.
12 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Mr. Moore,
13 excuse me. My question was a direct one.
14 MR. MOORE: I'm sorry.
15 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: What do you
16 see the economic impact or other impact --
17 MR. MOORE: Economic impact?
18 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Yes. I want
19 to know what the actual impact is. I
20 appreciate the statistics --
21 MR. MOORE: Okay.
22 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: -- but I want
23 to know the actual impact you anticipate.
24 MR. MOORE: Well, with less -- With
25 less area to work, less time to work, we'll
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1 have less money.
2 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Do you
3 disagree then with the -- the statement that I
4 understood Dr. Zimmerman to make about there
5 would be -- with less effort that you would
6 still have a good amount of catch? I forget
7 the exact statement, but I'm sure that you
8 probably heard it, also.
9 MR. MOORE: See, in our bay systems,
10 we are -- we are so regulated already, we --
11 we -- we have so much limited time to work,
12 four months out of the year we can only -- I
13 think it's four -- you can only work till
14 two o'clock. Our main season, which they want
15 to pull 15 days away from it, December -- end
16 of the season at December the 1st, we only have
17 four months in our main season, August 15th to
18 December the 15th. Now we're going to lose
19 15 days of that. It's economics.
20 If -- If the fishermen theirselves could
21 see in the long run, in the long term, a
22 benefit of this, but we don't see one. Our
23 numbers are steady going down. We have less
24 than 1400 boats in the fishery today in the
25 inshore fishery, and that's a long way from
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1 coming from 5,000. And limited entry is alive
2 and doing well. Now, it may not be as fast as
3 some people would like it to be, and -- and I'm
4 sure it's money. We did not like -- We did not
5 see CCA for $3 on their stamps and that's --
6 that's a -- That's a bad mistake anyway because
7 they've already deleted their main source,
8 which is a combo license and they don't pay the
9 $3. You know, we're getting a bad rap on that,
10 I feel.
11 Closures, any closure is not a way to
12 manage a resource. I would like to sit down
13 and see if there's something else couldn't be
14 done. We looked at mesh size. We looked at
15 other things. We've even agreed, but they've
16 been deleted. I wish that these -- these
17 proposals could have been done a long time ago
18 before -- and why we have a cutoff date of this
19 time when we have to do it right now, right
20 now. We have to -- You-all have to make this
21 decision.
22 And I'm confused about that because I
23 don't know because March 22nd we didn't have
24 any proposals.
25 And to clarify one other fact, if I may,
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1 that the conflict between National Marine
2 Fisheries and Parks and Wildlife, that -- that
3 was first brought out and that needs to be
4 clarified. There's no -- There's no conflict
5 in the data. The data's the same. The
6 conflict is the interpretation of the data, and
7 when we looked at the newspapers and all we
8 could read was our industry is about to
9 collapse, the director of fisheries even stated
10 in a Senate Natural Resource Committee hearing,
11 We will catch the last shrimp. That statement
12 was made.
13 Now, I don't know why anybody would make
14 that statement because who could afford to go
15 catch the last shrimp. It costs a lot of money
16 to run those boats. I'm sorry. I got --
17 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Thank you,
18 Mr. Moore.
19 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you,
20 Mr. Moore.
21 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Thank you,
22 Mr. Chairman.
23 CHAIRMAN BASS: Brian Sybert, if
24 you'd come up and be prepared to speak while we
25 hear from Mr. Evans.
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1 MR. EVANS: Yes, sir. Thank you for
2 having me. Having been in the business for
3 many, many years I also know a little bit about
4 the shrimping industry. I also have been on
5 the Advisory Committee for many years, and I
6 don't know how to say this, but I was a little
7 embarrassed to see our group vote completely
8 against the original proposals with me being
9 the exception, and then after we spend our time
10 in a couple more of these meetings, a bunch of
11 the proposals that you see from the gulf
12 industry right on that screen a few minutes ago
13 were in those original proposals. The original
14 set of proposals were outstanding in my
15 opinion. I've actually said a couple of times
16 that I think that that's where we out to be. I
17 don't particularly agree with the final rules
18 here. I would rather us have the original set
19 of proposals.
20 The -- The original set of proposals were
21 pretty well defined. I wasn't satisfied with
22 those because I've always said ever since I've
23 been on this committee that the bait license
24 that was put in effective about 1959 was for
25 only to provide bait for the fishing public of
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1 Texas, and I've said for many years now that I
2 think that the bait license is still being very
3 muchly abused. Having said that, I'll go on.
4 The shrimp season in the Gulf of Mexico
5 has -- looks like it's very, very good. I have
6 an opinion of that for a reason: I actually
7 was in my car before thinking about any of
8 this. This year I picked up the phones, we had
9 tremendous floods before the bay season
10 opened. All of the shrimp in my opinion got
11 forced to the Gulf of Mexico. We're having an
12 outstanding year in the Gulf of Mexico. I
13 believe the floods pushed those shrimp there.
14 We're having a decline in the bay. There
15 again, this is my opinion, okay, but we do have
16 an outstanding season in the Gulf of Mexico.
17 That could be an explanation, but it also backs
18 up the fact that if it is true, all the more
19 reason that we have to not overfish in the bay
20 so we have that escapement to the Gulf to
21 produce a viable fishery. I believe that.
22 The -- The proposal to close the lower
23 gulf for an environmental turtle reason I
24 thought was outstanding. I had asked the
25 people on a scale of one to ten how significant
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1 was this five-mile closure to the protection of
2 the turtle and the answer was nine. That's
3 pretty significant. If we don't do
4 something -- We have turtle excluder devices
5 that all of the shrimp industry said we'd never
6 have, but we have them.
7 Maybe if we don't do something in our own
8 state, which we should manage ourself, the
9 federal government will come back and try to do
10 more that really will be a lot more detrimental
11 to our fishery.
12 I would much rather have the five-mile
13 closure and get a rating from the people on the
14 other side, so to speak, of a nine on a scale
15 of one to ten opposed to coming back later and
16 the federal government try to close it for
17 15 miles.
18 So I support the five-mile closure on the
19 lower gulf, which was in the original
20 proposal.
21 The -- The turtle deal naturally has not a
22 lot of effect on the shrimp fishery, but we do
23 have turtle excluders in the Gulf of Mexico,
24 and if we can help protect the turtle and we're
25 only restricting an area that has produced less
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1 than 2 percent of the catch of the Gulf
2 fishery, I would say that that's pretty good.
3 And that's all I have for you today.
4 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, sir.
5 Questions or comments?
6 Thank you, Mr. Evans. Ms. Vu, if you'd
7 please come forward and prepare yourself to
8 speak while we hear from Mr. Sybert.
9 MR. SYBERT: Mr. Chairman --
10 CHAIRMAN BASS: Wait, Sybert.
11 MR. SYBERT: Sybert. I'm Brian
12 Sybert with the Lone Star Chapter of the Sierra
13 Club. Mr. Chairman, members of the Committee,
14 thank you for the opportunity to speak. I'd
15 like to open my comments by thanking
16 Commissioner Watson for attending the shrimp
17 working group meetings and many of the public
18 hearings. It's good to have a commissioner
19 there actually in the trenches grappling with
20 the difficult issue that everybody has been for
21 the last year.
22 I'd also like to thank the other
23 commissioners who took the time to also attend
24 several of the public hearings. I think that
25 was a very useful endeavor.
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1 About the regulations that we have before
2 us today, I feel that what we have in front of
3 us right now is basically a compromise. The
4 original regulations have been weakened
5 basically in an effort to try to get more input
6 buy-in from the shrimp industry and not the
7 shrimp industry entirely, because there are
8 members of the shrimp industry who do support
9 the proposed regulations. But there are
10 certain members of the shrimp industry who
11 simply we will never be able to appease, never
12 be able to get input or buy-in from. We'll
13 never please Julius Collins from Texas Shrimp
14 Association. We're never going to please
15 Richard Moore. They are opposed to the
16 regulations. No matter how much we compromise
17 them, they're going to be opposed to them.
18 Given that, I would urge the Commission to
19 go back to the original regulations, the
20 regulations that were intact before this last
21 Friday, before the final compromise and approve
22 those regulations. That set of regulations
23 are the ones that include -- included the
24 year-round, five-nautical-mile closure on the
25 southern portion of the Texas coast.
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1 Parks and Wildlife staff did the right
2 thing from the beginning. We had the science
3 and the public support. The two critical
4 elements for implementing these proposed
5 regulations and strong -- I would say we
6 always continued to advocate for stronger
7 regulations. I would say the original
8 regulations I would place as being fairly
9 moderate, but a good step that needed to be
10 taken.
11 With -- Given the science, we know there's
12 no discrepancies. We've heard from the
13 experts. We have a 49- -- or a 39-year
14 database indicating declines in the shrimp
15 fishery. We have bycatch studies indicating
16 significant impacts to recreational sports
17 fish, to commercial fish, economically
18 viable -- economically significant fish,
19 endangered species of sea turtles and impacts
20 to bottom habitats. The science is -- is
21 there. It's confirmed. There's no point in
22 arguing or debating it anymore. We can throw
23 as many facts and figures. We've heard today
24 from the experts and we know it's in.
25 We have the public support. 96 percent of
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1 the comments received by Parks and Wildlife
2 were in favor, not of the weakened version of
3 the regulations that we have now before us, but
4 for the version of the regulations that were
5 published in the Texas Register. The public
6 supports the stronger regulations, not the
7 weaker regulations. The science supports the
8 stronger regulations, not the weaker
9 regulations.
10 Given that, I would urge the Commission to
11 move forward with the original set of
12 regulations as published, or you would say,
13 because there were some things made that we're
14 not going to have significant problems with,
15 but I would say the -- I would urge the
16 Commission to move forward with the regulations
17 that came out of the last shrimp working group
18 meeting, which did include the year-round,
19 five-nautical-mile closure. Again, with that
20 closure, we're going to see significant
21 decreases in bycatch, we're going to protect
22 bottom habitat, we will protect and go a long
23 way towards taking care of the sea turtle
24 problem that is going to be out there lingering
25 if we don't deal with it correctly now.
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1 And unfortunately, if we don't implement
2 strong regulations and deal with it adequately
3 at this moment, we're going to have to re --
4 revisit this issue again and again and again,
5 and it's going to be a heck of a lot more
6 painful going back through it again and again
7 than this whole process has been. This has
8 been a very difficult, but important process
9 that has had to be dealt with.
10 So given that, again, we've got the
11 science, we've got the public support. Let's
12 do it right the first time around. Let's
13 implement the regulations that were intact as
14 of the last shrimp working group meeting and
15 implement the year-round, five-nautical-mile
16 closure and the nursery areas in the bay, which
17 are very significant for protecting those --
18 the bottom habitat and reducing bycatch in that
19 area.
20 And again thank you for the opportunity to
21 speak and thanks.
22 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you. Jeff
23 Newell, if you'd come forward and prepare
24 yourself.
25 And Ms. Vu, the floor is yours. Thank
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1 you.
2 MS. VU: Thank you, Mr. Chairman,
3 and members of the Commission and Mr. Sansom
4 for giving me the time to speak and a
5 sincere appreciation and thank you for
6 Commissioner Watson and all to attend a public
7 meeting down in our area.
8 My name is Twi Vu and I'm here today to
9 represent and speak on behalf of the
10 Vietnamese-American Shrimper Association, also
11 known and VASA. I have my written comments
12 there. It is pretty lengthy, but I'm going to
13 go to the main -- highlight the main issue.
14 After careful -- careful review and
15 consideration of the new shrimp group proposal,
16 our association cannot help, but conclude that
17 these proposed rules are without scientific
18 basis, VASA is committed to responsible
19 stewardship for our marine resource.
20 Although we have not agreed with Texas
21 Parks and Wildlife's assessment of the
22 biological concern for the shrimp and sea
23 turtle resource, we have made a good faith
24 effort to negotiate some type of conservation
25 compromise. Again, we would like to reiterate
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1 what we have proposed. It's the one-mile
2 closure that prohibits all shrimp trawling from
3 the beach seaward to one nautical mile and
4 extending to the U.S.-Mexican border to the
5 Texas-Louisiana boundary. This proposal will
6 benefit growth in the bay.
7 The closed area will provide a spawning
8 refuge for the white shrimp. The white shrimp
9 often spawn in a very -- in or very close to
10 the surf, which is inside the 1 1/2 -- one
11 mile. A total closure will provide a cushion
12 for fishing effort and additional protection to
13 spawning adults, especially during the period
14 when the gulf shrimp season opened.
15 A significant number of late spawning
16 females will be protected for the very first
17 time ever in the history of shrimp management.
18 It will also provide protection for small brown
19 shrimp during spring and summer. This is in
20 conclusion with a lot of the fishermen
21 experience out there. This closure will
22 also provide additional protection for the
23 sea turtle, also provide protection for many
24 finfish species and invertebrates that utilize
25 the near shore area as habitat. An enforcement
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1 of a closed area would be immensely simplified.
2 Enforcement wouldn't be too hard if the area's
3 just closed.
4 When we presented our conservation plan
5 earlier in the month, we were told that it is a
6 more severe measure than the current published
7 rules and could not be legally inacted by the
8 TEXAS PARKS AND WILDLIFE COMMISSION at this
9 time.
10 We are compelled to response that we
11 believe that our plan is more logical and
12 responsible than the proposed rules. Our
13 organization believes that significant
14 ecological benefit can be derived from our
15 proposal without the economic hardship that
16 will be realized from the Texas Parks and
17 Wildlife proposal.
18 If you cannot enact our proposal at this
19 time, then we strongly request that you delay
20 any shrimp rules until our plan can be
21 considered. We have made a sincere effort to
22 work with this Department and we ask that the
23 Commission at least give us the courtesy of the
24 full consideration of a one-mile closure and we
25 request that a written statement be made a part
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1 of the record.
2 Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and members of
3 the Commission.
4 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you, ma'am.
5 For clarification, do you -- As part of your
6 proposal, what was your proposal concerning the
7 bay regulations?
8 MS. VU: The bay, as we go back to
9 the beginning, with National Marine Fishery
10 saying there is overgrowth fishing. We see
11 that -- The only thing that we see in there is,
12 like, the count size which need to be adopt --
13 to address overgrowth. But the bait, they
14 cannot afford any more water closure. They --
15 They are down to the, you know, to such a small
16 shrimping area already, and their time in
17 shrimping is not very long. They only have
18 three months during the spring or, you know,
19 spring season and then about four months during
20 the summer season, but then you have to take
21 into consideration of the weather that permit
22 them of going out or not.
23 But to address the overgrowth fishing,
24 yes, that's what we see that, you know, the
25 count side come in as an issue. I mean, as
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1 a --
2 COMMISSIONER AVILA: Method to
3 address?
4 MS. VU: Yes. Yes, sir. Thank you.
5 And for the Gulf, on the net restriction, our
6 people and some of the Americans that live our
7 area, shrimp the white shrimp most of the time
8 and we make a living, say, 80 percent of the,
9 you know, on white shrimping.
10 And the white shrimp stay around the two
11 miles and the three-mile zone, and if we -- if
12 they restrict the net, yes, we will be a -- you
13 know, we will make every attempt to adapt our
14 boat -- I mean, make the boat to go inside
15 there and fish.
16 That's why we feel like the net
17 restriction is not going to help because it's
18 just going to create more effort inside there
19 because they're catching a little bit more.
20 That's why we feel that, you know, if you
21 restrict to three mile, that means you cut us
22 completely out that shrimping area.
23 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you. Other
24 questions or comments for Ms. Vu at this time?
25 Thank you very much, ma'am.
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1 MS. VU: Thank you.
2 CHAIRMAN BASS: Kevin Daniels, if
3 you'd come forward and be prepared while we
4 hear from Mr. Newell.
5 MR. NEWELL: All right. Dear ladies
6 and gentlemen of the Commission. First, let me
7 thank the Parks and Wildlife for giving me this
8 extraordinary opportunity to be here to voice
9 my opinion on the regulations being proposed.
10 I am here to talk about the gulf waters and the
11 two-net law proposal. I own and operate a
12 73-foot gulf trawler, so I live and breathe
13 shrimping every day. I've been shrimping for
14 25 years and have seen many changes in the
15 industry.
16 Changes are sometimes good and sometimes
17 not. For instance, the use of air
18 conditioning, better deck lighting, better
19 safety gear, the GPS with computer navigation,
20 these are good changes. But the buildup of big
21 vessels with large amounts of horsepower
22 pulling four 60- to 80-foot trawls that use
23 huge, heavy trawl doors, heavy chains, and very
24 often shrimping around the clock I have found
25 not to be a good change for our coastal
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1 environment, especially the near shore waters
2 and certainly not for an extended period of
3 time.
4 The trawl design has improved over the
5 years. The use of spectrum webbing, this is a
6 lightweight, strong, easy-to-tow webbing. This
7 webbing has allowed boats without big
8 horsepower to tow with larger nets. I know
9 this because I have used the webbing to go from
10 pulling 4 40-foot nets to 4 50-foot trawls.
11 The availability to low-interest loans has
12 made it possible to refurbish old boats or buy
13 bigger new boats, so as competition -- as the
14 competition has increased, this has created an
15 atmosphere of get-all-you-can-get-today,
16 because if you do not, someone else will.
17 So you see that there are many factors
18 involved in shrimping and it is at this time, I
19 believe, we are pushing the limit of harvest on
20 our near-shore shrimp. The two-net law is a
21 fair, efficient means to addressing this
22 problem.
23 There are some in the industry who have
24 made claims that this law would cost them their
25 jobs and loss of income. I do not believe this
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1 to be true. I do believe this will create
2 changes in the way we work our boats. Some of
3 the boats may decide to shrimp offshore where
4 they are allowed to pull the four trawls, but
5 this law would level the playing field
6 indiscriminately allowing anyone, regardless of
7 race, size of boat, or anything else, providing
8 that they have a Texas gulf license, the right
9 to work and harvest shrimp.
10 The truth is that because the
11 near-shore -- the near-shore effort has grown
12 so fast so furiously that I have personally
13 experienced a decline in income and have been
14 forced to look offshore for a better catch.
15 For many years, I was what we in the
16 business refer to as a white shrimper,
17 shrimping the shallower water, but I've found I
18 cannot compete with the numerous large boats
19 pulling their very large trawls, and to be
20 honest, have not seen the amount of white
21 shrimp that we had in the past. And if some
22 shrimp do show up, there are just too many
23 boats working those shrimp.
24 Therefore, if you do not implement this
25 law, many like myself will be forced out of
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1 business or will have to try to survive on a
2 much smaller income. So the very essence of
3 this law provides some conservation, and at the
4 same time, preserving he Texas shrimp
5 industry.
6 And by the way, the desire for this law is
7 not new to the industry. This is a law that
8 has been wanted for quite sometime. So -- We
9 have had net restrictions in our bays for a
10 long time, so it would seem appropriate for our
11 state outside waters as well.
12 I realize Parks and Wildlife has heard
13 more shrimpers against this law than for it,
14 but I believe the majority have not been heard
15 from one way or the other. And some simply
16 trust the Department to do the right thing.
17 I think it is important to stay with the
18 five-mile Northern Zone package. This amount
19 of mileage will give the shrimp the area needed
20 to sustain an adequate population. Plus, this
21 zone provides more conservation or finfish and
22 see turtles. Going only out to three miles
23 like putting a small Band-aid on a huge wound,
24 but it's still better than nothing.
25 As for the Southern Zone, it would seem
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1 better to leave it as the first proposal or
2 close from the beach out to three miles
3 year-round and require no more than two nets
4 from four to five miles out subject to the same
5 seasonal openings and closures as in the
6 Northern Zone. Thank you.
7 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you,
8 Mr. Newell.
9 Any questions at this time from
10 Mr. Newell?
11 Thank you. Appreciate your insights.
12 Kevin Daniels.
13 Ray Allen, would you come up and be ready
14 to speak after we hear from Mr. Daniels,
15 please.
16 The floor is yours, Kevin.
17 MR. DANIELS: Thank you,
18 Mr. Chairman. Again, my name is Kevin Daniels
19 and I'm with CCA Texas. Since Mr. Moore kind
20 of opened the door on the subject, I'd like to
21 clarity one point he made or one comment he
22 made that that $3 increase in the saltwater
23 stamp as you're all aware doesn't just affect
24 the 40,000 CCA members, but the 600,000
25 saltwater stamp buyers, so it's quite a bit
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1 larger public. I'd like to say I think a lot
2 of these, a lot of this discussion has been
3 about the fear of the unknown, fear of change.
4 Certainly recognizing that the industry
5 and -- and these people's livelihood are going
6 to change or could change, a lot of unknown
7 there, and I'd like to draw an analogy, if I
8 let me.
9 The analogy is with air bags in the auto
10 industry. When they were first proposed,
11 nobody wanted them. They were not going to be
12 profitable, a loss of profitability to the
13 industry. But the science was there, the data
14 was there. It was -- It was the right thing to
15 do, but those air bags were put into cars not
16 with the knowledge that you would be in a
17 wreck, but based on the possibility that you
18 might be in a wreck.
19 So the unknown is -- is -- There's really
20 no way to predict that, but I think if we talk
21 about the possibility of overfishing, it does
22 exist, just as the possibility you might have
23 been in an auto accident existed, and you need
24 to take some precautionary measures and I think
25 that's we're really talking about here.
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1 As I know, we're really walking on a lot
2 of plowed ground here, I won't -- I won't
3 burden you with many details, but I'd only say
4 that CCA supports all of the proposed
5 regulation changes as now modified.
6 I would genuinely like to thank the Texas
7 Parks and Wildlife staff and the Commissioners
8 as well as members of the shrimping industry
9 who I believe -- I genuinely believe who've
10 honestly worked openly and hard over the last
11 three months certainly anyway to try to come up
12 with some reasonable solutions for some really
13 difficult problems.
14 I would -- I would hope that everybody
15 would at some time come to believe that -- that
16 we're truly in this together, rebuild a sense
17 of trust, as you -- as you mentioned earlier.
18 That will -- That will take some time, but I
19 think that the dialogue that's already begun
20 needs to continue doing that.
21 But I really would say that the industry,
22 the shrimping industry in Texas, needs to --
23 needs to understand that their profitability is
24 not necessarily in the best interest of the
25 public. And the public should also conversely
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1 understand that -- that the shrimping industry
2 is not the single largest evil of our marine
3 resources. We must all contribute to the
4 conservation of this resource.
5 You know, conservation is a burden and I
6 think it's reasonable to ask that all users of
7 public resource should shoulder their fair
8 share of the burden. Each of us is responsible
9 to maintain a healthy and sustainable habitat
10 and fishery. The proposed regulatory changes
11 we believe are the minimum measures that --
12 that you should adopt to preserve these subject
13 resources for all user groups.
14 Thank you.
15 CHAIRMAN BASS: Questions or
16 comments?
17 Thank you.
18 Mr. Allen.
19 MR. ALLEN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman
20 and Commissioners. I'm Ray Allen. I'm
21 director of the Coastal Bend Bays and Estuaries
22 Program in Corpus Christi. We're the
23 implementation organization of the Corpus
24 Christi Bay National Estuary Program.
25 Geographically, our specific area of interest
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1 is from the land cut and bath and bay area up
2 to the Aransas Wildlife Refuge and Mesquite Bay
3 Area.
4 First, I'd like to thank the staff for
5 soliciting our input and participation in
6 numerous meetings. I would say as the
7 shrimpers mentioned, we also were not tipped
8 off early to these coming rules. We wish we
9 had been. We would have liked to have seen
10 them earlier. We think there's room for
11 improvement in the other direction.
12 I was also somewhat amused here, and since
13 I'm speaking last, I have a little bit of a
14 rebuttal opportunity here. There was some
15 discussion earlier on about taking a
16 conservative approach to managing the resource,
17 and I would tell you from my perspective is
18 that we have not taken a conservative approach
19 to managing the resource. In fact, we are
20 walking the line as -- I think it was
21 Mr. Zimmerman said. We are at the edge of
22 losing this resource.
23 And I don't want to be up here crying, you
24 know, the sky is falling, but honestly, at this
25 time last year, we really thought the sky was
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1 falling. Since then we've had another good
2 year offshore, but not necessarily in the bays
3 and -- and there's a variety of reasons for
4 that. Let me just say concerning the proposed
5 rules, we support the inclusion of the nursery
6 areas as originally proposed in the rules. We
7 can accept them as now proposed in the revised
8 version.
9 I would point out, though, that -- that
10 the designation by Parks and Wildlife, and
11 frankly the legislature in designating nursery
12 bays, bait bays, and major bays sometimes is a
13 designation without distinction because, in
14 fact, the bay systems the entire estuaries are
15 a nursery area that we are dealing with
16 juvenile and subadult populations of the
17 resource here, whether it's the shrimp in this
18 case or -- or many oft finfish or -- or other
19 net-living resources of the area.
20 We are -- In the bays, we are in the
21 nursery grounds. Some are perhaps more
22 valuable nurseries than others, and perhaps
23 that's what the regulations reflect.
24 Growth overfishing, I think we are all
25 very concerned about that. Nobody wants to get
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1 to the next stage where we are facing
2 recruitment overfishing. Again, I think we're
3 somewhere between those lines and we got to be
4 careful here.
5 The proposal before you today as opposed
6 to what was published deletes some very
7 important components: Increases in mesh size
8 and an establishment of a minimum count size
9 for the spring season. We would request that
10 those regulations be included in the final
11 packet as they were in the original published
12 proposal.
13 Finally -- Or not finally yet, but the
14 bay-bait shrimping issue is so complicated, it
15 isn't really being addressed by these proposed
16 rule changes here that -- that we're going to
17 have to come back at a future date. As you all
18 know, this is just another step in the process
19 of the management of this resource. This
20 confusion over who has bait licenses and bay
21 licenses and where they shrimp and what size
22 net they use and how many pounds they can take
23 per day lends itself to a lot of abuse, a lot
24 of misuse, a lot of misunderstanding, and I
25 think somewhere along the line, we lost the
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1 original intent of establishing a bait season
2 and bait license.
3 Finally now, on the -- On the Southern
4 Zone gulf closure, I think the original
5 proposal as put forth was a good idea. It was
6 real straightforward, easy to manage, easy to
7 implement. That's the published proposal. The
8 staff recommended proposal today is a little
9 more complicated to manage, a little more
10 difficult to implement and regulate.
11 But having said that, I would tell you
12 that I am pursuaded by some of the arguments
13 put forth by the Gulf Shrimping Industry, the
14 Texas Shrimp Association regarding the -- the
15 sea turtles and regarding the apparent increase
16 in nesting success on their grounds in Mexico.
17 I think there's a very good story to be told
18 there and so that if staff has come back today
19 with a compromise proposal that -- that
20 alleviates some of the gulf shrimper's
21 concerns, then that's probably a livable
22 solution.
23 I think we need to keep a close eye on
24 that. At one time, 100 percent increase in
25 turtle nesting is a great and wonderful thing.
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1 We need to see that continue for the next four
2 or five years. So I -- I appreciate the
3 agency's efforts here to keep a close eye on
4 that.
5 Finally, I would note in closing, the one
6 concern we have, or I have, about the -- the
7 southern closure is that it has an opening.
8 And we all know what openings do, they -- they
9 create a derby race. You have now set a time
10 limit where folks are going to be lined up
11 ready to go, you know, to hit those areas that
12 have been closed for those many months. And --
13 And I am at this point requesting that the
14 Parks and Wildlife staff make a commitment to
15 very closely monitor that situation that
16 they've created there so that we don't get in
17 the situation where too many boats are focusing
18 on one small area because of these closures
19 that have gone along.
20 I'll be glad to answer any questions.
21 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you,
22 Mr. Allen.
23 Any questions or comments at this time?
24 MR. ALLEN: Thank you.
25 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you.
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1 Well, we've heard a -- a broad spectrum of
2 comments from various stakeholders in this
3 issue this morning. Obviously, I think this
4 afternoon and tomorrow we'll have opportunity
5 to -- to have considerable more public input
6 before the Commission is -- is charged with
7 making some final motions and -- and
8 regulations.
9 That being said, I think the appropriate
10 thing at this point would be for the Chair to
11 seek a motion to -- to forward this discussion
12 to the public meeting stage for further input.
13 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Mr. Chairman,
14 for clarification, any -- anything that is --
15 was published is still before the Commission
16 regardless of the form or the recommendation
17 that's been made by staff today; is that
18 correct?
19 CHAIRMAN BASS: I -- I believe any --
20 anything that's --
21 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Up or down in
22 other words.
23 CHAIRMAN BASS: -- that has been
24 published by --
25 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Previously by
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1 the Department is certainly available for
2 Commission action, and the caveat being I think
3 that we cannot be more -- as all regulations,
4 we cannot be more restrictive than something
5 that has been published in the Register for
6 public comment.
7 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: The -- And
8 moving forward with the staff's proposal does
9 not necessarily commit the Commission to that
10 proposal either.
11 CHAIRMAN BASS: In no way.
12 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: All of that
13 being said, I would move that it be moved
14 forward to tomorrow's meeting for --
15 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: Action.
16 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: -- action.
17 CHAIRMAN BASS: Motion and a second.
18 Move this board for public comment and further
19 meetings and consideration tomorrow.
20 All in favor?
21 ALL COMMISSIONERS: Aye.
22 CHAIRMAN BASS: Any opposed?
23 (No response, and motion carries
24 unanimously.)
25 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you.
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1 The last item on the Regulations Committee
2 agenda is an action item on Threatened and
3 Endangered Species Regulation which we will
4 consider tomorrow. The Chair would -- would
5 like to postpone the presentation until
6 tomorrow's meeting when -- when the Commission
7 will be in a position to hear the proposal
8 reviewed and -- and take action and that will
9 hopefully make us a little more expedient in
10 the rest of our business and not too late for
11 our one o'clock scheduled meeting.
12 That said, that's no further business to
13 come before the --
14 COMMISSIONER DINKINS:
15 Mr. Chairman --
16 CHAIRMAN BASS: -- Regulations
17 Committee.
18 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: -- do we need
19 to move that to the agenda for tomorrow?
20 CHAIRMAN BASS: It certainly would
21 not hurt.
22 COMMISSIONER DINKINS: I so move.
23 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Second.
24 CHAIRMAN BASS: Motion and second.
25 All in favor?
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1 ALL COMMISSIONERS: Aye.
2 (No resonse, and motion carries
3 unanimously.)
4 CHAIRMAN BASS: Thank you. And that
5 being said, no further business for the
6 Regulations Committee. I pass the -- adjourn
7 that and pass the gavel to my colleague from
8 the Finance Committee.
9 (SESSION ENDS.)
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1 THE STATE OF TEXAS )
COUNTY OF BEXAR )
2
3 I, TONYA R. THOMPSON, a Certified
4 Court Reporter in and for the State of Texas,
5 do hereby certify that the above and foregoing
6 137 pages constitute a full, true, and correct
7 transcript of the minutes of the Texas Parks
8 and Wildlife Commission on AUGUST 30, 2000, in
9 the Commission Hearing Room of the Texas Parks
10 and Wildlife Headquarters Complex, Austin,
11 Travis County, Texas.
12 I FURTHER CERTIFY that a stenographic
13 record was made by me at the time of the public
14 meeting and said stenographic notes were
15 thereafter reduced to computerized
16 transcription under my supervision and control.
17 WITNESS MY HAND this the day of
18 , 2000.
19
20
TONYA R. THOMPSON, Texas CSR 5476
21 Expiration Date: 12/2000
7800 IH-10 West, Suite 100
22 San Antonio, Texas 78230
(210) 377-3027
23
EBS NO.:
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1
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3 LEE M. BASS, CHAIRMAN
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5 CAROL E. DINKINS
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7 DICK W. HEATH
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9 NOLAN RYAN
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11 ERNEST ANGELO, JR.
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13 JOHN AVILA, JR.
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15 ALVIN L. HENRY
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17 KATHARINE ARMSTRONG IDSAL
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19 MARK E. WATSON, JR.
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