Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission
Conservation Committee
April 3, 2002
Commission Hearing RoomTexas Parks & Wildlife Department Headquarters Complex
4200 Smith School Road
Austin, TX 78744
1
5 BE IT REMEMBERED, that heretofore on the 3rd day
6 of April, 2002, there came to be heard matters under the
7 regulatory authority of the Parks and Wildlife Commission of
8 Texas, in the Commission Hearing Room of the Texas Parks and
9 Wildlife Headquarters Complex, Austin, Texas, beginning at
10 3:00 p.m., to wit:
11
12 APPEARANCES:
13 THE PARKS AND WILDLIFE COMMISSION:
14
15 CONSERVATION COMMITTEE:
16 CHAIR: Katharine Armstrong Idsal, San Antonio, Texas
Donato D. Ramos, Laredo, Texas
17 Philip Montgomery, III, Dallas, Texas
Ernest Angelo, Jr., Midland, Texas
18 John Avila, Jr., Fort Worth, Texas
Alvin L. Henry, Houston, Texas (Absent)
19 Mark E. Watson, Jr., San Antonio, Texas
Joseph Fitzsimons, San Antonio, Texas
20 Kelly W. Rising, M.D., Beaumont, Texas
21
22
23 THE TEXAS PARKS AND WILDLIFE DEPARTMENT:
Robert L. Cook, Executive Director, and other personnel of
24 the Parks and Wildlife Department
25
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1 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: That brings us to the
2 Conservation Committee. The first order of business is the
3 approval of the committee minutes from the previous meeting.
4 Is there a motion for approval?
5 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: So moved.
6 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: A second?
7 COMMISSIONER RISING: Second.
8 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: All in favor say aye.
9 ("Aye.")
10 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Any opposed? Hearing none,
11 motion carries. Next order of business is the Chairman's
12 Charges. Mr. Cook, will you please make your presentation.
13 MR. COOK: Yes, ma'am, I have a couple or three
14 of the charges I would like to cover at this time. One, to
15 develop a statewide Land and Water Resources Conservation and
16 Recreation Plan. Staff began work on this project immediately
17 after the Legislative session ended last spring. Jeff
18 Francell, Emily Armintano and Jack Bauer have been doing a
19 great job of coordinating this effort. The Chairman appointed
20 an ad hoc committee to oversee the development of the plan.
21 To date the committee has met three times and a draft report
22 is due May 1. Two constituent feedback meetings are scheduled
23 for April 10th at McKinney Roughs and April 17th in the State
24 Capitol auditorium and I would like for you to know that you
25 are invited to attend either or both of those sessions and
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1 hear what our constituents have to think about our process and
2 where we are in the plan. Another charge was to participate
3 in the Texas Water Advisory Council. That came out of Senate
4 Bill 2.
5 Chairman Idsal has appointed Commissioner
6 Joseph Fitzsimons as the TPWD representative on the Texas Water
7 Advisory Council. The initial organizing meeting was held
8 January 23, 2002, and the second meeting is tentatively
9 scheduled in May. Established by Senate Bill 2, the duties of
10 the council are to provide a forum on significant water policy
11 issues, and in an advisory role, strive to provide focus and
12 recommendations on state water policy initiatives. The
13 council will also review river authority's performance
14 according to standards established by the Legislature and
15 report to state leadership by December 2002.
16 Third, to negotiate with the Texas Department
17 of Transportation for the use of obsolete bridges, tunnels,
18 and causeways for the artificial reef program. A meeting with
19 TxDOT was held in February during which TxDOT provided staff
20 with a partial list of bridges and overpasses scheduled for
21 demolition. Also discussed were issues regarding the
22 stability of materials for artificial reefs which were
23 contaminated with oil, availability of funds to transport
24 materials offshore and costs associated with the transport of
25 those materials and what it would take to reef the existing
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1 Galveston causeway. Personnel from both agencies are working
2 together to find a way to enhance the artificial reefs off the
3 Texas coast. Thank you.
4 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Thank you, Mr. Cook.
5 Next order of business is Item No. 2,
6 Nomination of Oil and Gas - Tyler State Park. Mr. Ray, will
7 you make your presentation, please.
8 MR. RAY: Thank you. Madam Chairman and
9 Commissioners, I'm Ronnie Ray with the Land Conservation and
10 Acquisition Group. This item is to consider the nomination of
11 an oil and gas lease at the Tyler State Park in Smith County.
12 This nomination has been requested by a producer. Tyler State
13 Park is comprised of 985 acres. The proposed nominated tracts
14 are on the eastern side of the park depicted in this map in
15 the blue outline. They total approximately 51 mineral acres.
16 The restriction on this lease will be no entry on TPWD lands.
17 The terms of the lease are standard terms of minimum bonus bid
18 of $150 an acre, 25 percent royalty and 10 percent -- $10 per
19 acre delayed rental. This concludes my presentation. Any
20 questions?
21 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Is this in a pooled
22 unit, you're saying they're not coming on the property?
23 MR. RAY: Right. Yes, sir, it will be
24 restricted to off-site drilling. It will be pooled.
25 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: When you say no entry, are
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1 you saying that they cannot have a drilling site on this
2 particular tract?
3 MR. RAY: Yes, sir.
4 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: In other words, we would
5 have -- it would have to be an off-site drilling underneath
6 our property?
7 MR. RAY: Right. They'll be on our neighboring
8 property.
9 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: As I understand it,
10 the 51 acres is included in an existing unit and we're pooled
11 in that unit.
12 MR. RAY: Yes, sir, it will be.
13 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: For whatever well
14 they permitted, I guess. Do you know how big?
15 MR. RAY: No, sir. I'm pretty sure it hasn't
16 been done yet.
17 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Okay.
18 MR. RAY: It's just at the lease stage.
19 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Have you discussed out of
20 the unit how many acres will be comprised out of our acres, in
21 other words, if you created a unit that at least half of the
22 unit would be our acreage or any limitation of that type?
23 MR. RAY: To my knowledge it hasn't been
24 discussed.
25 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Or the minimum royalty per
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1 acre like the delayed $10 or $20.
2 MR. RAY: It will be 25 percent.
3 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: No, that the minimum
4 royalty -- in other words that in no event would be paid any
5 less than so much per acre.
6 MR. RAY: It's $150 on the lease and then a $10
7 delayed rental. And then whatever amount they pool.
8 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: It's in bail bonds
9 terms. Those numbers aren't bad you know.
10 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Are you still at a
11 negotiating point where you can negotiate how many acres would
12 be comprised -- in the unit would comprise our acreage to
13 where we could maximize our participation in that unit?
14 MR. RAY: Yes, sir, I believe we could.
15 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Does the lease form not
16 have that kind of language in it? It probably does. I would
17 be surprised if it doesn't have some --
18 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: No, the producer's
19 lease form -- (inaudible).
20 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: Well, I don't know what
21 we're using.
22 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: It wouldn't be in our
23 favor, I guarantee you that.
24 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: No -- do we have our own
25 lease form? Did the state provide a lease form?
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1 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Mr. Bauer?
2 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: They don't come with
3 their own lease form?
4 MR. RAY: General Land Office form.
5 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: It is the GLO form you
6 use?
7 MR. RAY: Yes, sir.
8 COMMISSIONER ANGELO: It's got every
9 restriction you can think of from the landowner standpoint.
10 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Did I recognize Jack Bauer?
11 MR. BAUER: Thank you. I'm Jack Bauer with the
12 Land Conservation Program. What the purpose of the Commission
13 would have in this is, the lease arrangements are done through
14 the Board for Lease for Parks and Wildlife Lands and -- at the
15 General Land Office. They will prepare the lease. They honor
16 our -- the Commission's recommendations for the terms of
17 those -- of those leases. So if you have desires, make them
18 known and we will carry them forward to the Board for Lease.
19 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: My only suggestion would
20 be that, to the extent that there is pooling, that we maximize
21 our acreage position in the pool.
22 MR. RAY: I understand. That's what I meant
23 when I said I believe it's still open for negotiations
24 whatever you-all send to them, I believe we can discuss.
25 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Madame Chair.
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1 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Commissioner Fitzsimons.
2 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: May I make a
3 recommendation -- if we could -- you have a small ad hoc
4 unofficial committee of the two oil and gas lawyers to look at
5 our riders that we do -- traditionally have riders where it
6 involves our surface in surface-use provisions, in this case
7 it doesn't -- there won't be access to the surface, but in
8 cases where is it does, do we have our own special rider for
9 parkland or is it just straight GLO?
10 MR. BAUER: It's straight GLO, yes, sir.
11 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: If maybe we could
12 look at that issue because if the GLO form is a good form --
13 I've been on both sides of it, but it does not necessarily --
14 it's not necessarily designed certainly for our surface
15 issues.
16 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: That's right -- plus from
17 the pooling perspective also.
18 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Yeah.
19 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: I think I see where you-all
20 are going with this and what I recommend if it's okay with
21 you-all, if the two of you-all could get-together and with
22 Jack and figure out something that might make some sense here
23 and then report back to us at the next Commission meeting.
24 MR. BAUER: That's great. I really appreciate
25 the involvement that you're taking in this.
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1 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Unless you have some
2 urgency because there's a deadline or something.
3 MR. BAUER: No, sir. This is for a July sale.
4 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: For a July sale.
5 Yeah.
6 MR. COOK: I would -- Jack, you and Ronnie what
7 do you think about moving forward with this with the direction
8 given here to do that or do we -- do -- would you recommend we
9 hold up on this one?
10 MR. BAUER: If you had some specific language
11 that you are used to in the oil and gas industry that we could
12 forward as part of the recommendation, I think that would be
13 the best way to do it.
14 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: I think we could meet with
15 him afterwards and just share a few thoughts with him.
16 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Okay. Are there any further
17 questions on this item? If not, I propose that we move this
18 to the Thursday Commission meeting for public comment and
19 action; is that correct? Thank you. Thank you, Jack.
20 MR. BAUER: Thank you.
21 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Item No. 3, Petroleum Pipeline
22 Easement, Cameron County. Mr. Gissell, will you please make
23 your presentation.
24 MR. GISSELL: Madame Chairman and members of
25 Commission, my name is Dennis Gissell. I'm with the Wildlife
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1 Division and today I'm here to request your approval to
2 proceed forward with the development of an easement for two
3 petroleum pipelines that were installed on Resaca de la Palma
4 State Park, which is a portion of the World Birding Center.
5 Resaca de la Palma State Park is about three miles west of
6 Brownsville in Cameron County. In late 1999 two petroleum
7 pipelines were installed by a contractor of Penn Octane
8 Corporation on Resaca de la Palma without Park and Wildlife
9 permission and the pipelines were constructed under a
10 presidential permit to provide liquid petroleum gas, gasoline
11 and diesel to Mexico. This slide shows the boundary of the
12 1,200-acre Resaca de la Palma and the inset shows the relative
13 location of the pipelines. This is an expansion of that
14 inset, it shows where the two pipelines were installed just
15 inside the boundary of the park on the southeast corner. This
16 is a slide that shows the right-of-way where the two pipelines
17 were installed alongside a power line easement, approximately
18 1,493 feet long and the easement would be about 30 feet wide.
19 It covers just over an acre of land.
20 Once the pipelines were discovered, staff
21 negotiated with Penn Octane to survey a boundary of the
22 property as well as the pipeline locations, to have an
23 archaeological survey done, and to assess damage fees and
24 easement fees. As I mentioned, one pipeline is currently
25 transporting liquid petroleum gas and the other one is sitting
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1 idle but could be used for either gasoline or diesel in the
2 near future. Applicant and staff request permission to
3 proceed with an easement to the Board for Lease for action for
4 a ten-year easement, a total of $118,096 in damages and fees
5 which includes $100,000 in damages and $18,096 in easement
6 fees. That concludes my presentation and I would be pleased
7 to answer your questions.
8 COMMISSIONER AVILA: Is the easement fees
9 continuing or is that a onetime fee?
10 MR. GISSELL: That is a onetime ten-year
11 easement fee. And we would renegotiate at the end of that
12 ten-year term.
13 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Does the easement that you
14 contemplate be restrictive to the existing pipelines and
15 nothing more?
16 MR. GISSELL: That's correct.
17 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Or do they have the right
18 to lay additional lines?
19 MR. GISSELL: It would be restricted to those
20 two pipelines.
21 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Upon the termination
22 of it, it requires them to remove it and remediate.
23 MR. GISSELL: We certainly could do that.
24 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Along the lines of
25 our earlier discussions, there are things to put in there.
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1 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: In with the legal document
2 supporting that -- is that something that's generated by the
3 General Land Office or we will do that?
4 MR. GISSELL: The General Land Office generates
5 that, sir.
6 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: The width of the easement
7 is 30 feet?
8 MR. GISSELL: Thirty feet.
9 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: To the center line?
10 MR. GISSELL: Fifteen feet from each side of
11 the center line.
12 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: But the lines have been in
13 place already and they've been using it?
14 MR. GISSELL: That's correct.
15 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Is there any further
16 discussion? The Committee Chair will place the item on the
17 Thursday Commission meeting agenda for public comment and
18 action.
19 Next committee item is No. 4, Easement
20 Assignments in Travis County. Jack Bauer will you make the
21 presentation, please.
22 MR. BAUER: My name is Jack Bauer. I'm Land
23 Conservation Program Director. This is a land cleanup item
24 relating to conversion of constructed -- construction permits
25 that came up for fiber optics on Smith School Road and we
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1 would like to convert them to easements. This view is from
2 overhead looking south toward the headquarters from Burleson
3 Road and through -- from '99 to last year with all the -- all
4 the fiber optic construction that was going on in the county
5 and the city, we had -- we had several requests to lay a
6 conduit up Smith School Road. There is a fiber optics
7 provider at the end of Smith School Road. It's that building
8 there identified as Level 3. And several providers wanted to
9 hook up to the infrastructure circuit that was going in around
10 Austin to these service providers at Level 3 Communications.
11 Texas Parks and Wildlife owns Smith School Road and we felt it
12 appropriate to benefit from rents that we could receive from
13 that. We did due diligence for archaeology and also from an
14 operational standpoint of running our headquarters here and it
15 was not any significant impacts. But we did provide an
16 easement to Level 3 in '99 and what we have now is -- we then
17 had, under really from that industry what would be considered
18 as urgent requests, to get two more sets of conduit in along
19 Smith School Road. One was from MCI WorldCom. We provided a
20 construction permit for them to construct within the same
21 easement area as the Level 3 right-of-way. I'll go back and
22 that would be on the east side of Smith School. And then
23 following that we had a request to put in, and we provided
24 through a permit -- construction permit and occupancy permit
25 to lay conduit on the west side of Smith School. And staff
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1 and the applicants would like to now convert these to
2 easements.
3 So the actions that we would ask you to
4 consider would be -- there would be two of them. First would
5 be to assign the existing miscellaneous easement from the
6 Board for Lease and the number is identified there, to be
7 assigned to MCI WorldCom. We have collected a fee for -- to
8 construct -- to lay the conduit of $25,000 and we would
9 suggest that the terms and conditions that came with the
10 permit to construct be converted to that easement. Actually
11 on that one, the terms and conditions that exist with Level 3
12 would be converted and the same terms and conditions would
13 apply to MCI WorldCom.
14 For -- the other fiber optics provider which is
15 XO Texas that's on the west side of Smith School Road we
16 would -- we have collected $75,000 in fees to construct
17 that -- to lay that conduit. And we would propose, using the
18 terms and conditions that are -- that exist in that permit and
19 convert them to an easement for a ten-year term at -- with the
20 revenue that's been collected of $75,000. Are there
21 questions?
22 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Commissioner Avila.
23 COMMISSIONER AVILA: WorldCom is putting in two
24 additional -- they have three now; is that correct, or
25 something like that?
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1 MR. BAUER: MCI WorldCom has one bundle of
2 conduit that is in an easement that has been provided by the
3 Board for Lease to Level 3 communications.
4 COMMISSIONER AVILA: Did we charge them for
5 that?
6 MR. BAUER: Yes, we did.
7 COMMISSIONER AVILA: So, is it not 75 -- 75
8 more or less?
9 MR. BAUER: The one to Level 3 was for $25,000.
10 We provided a permit to construct in that same easement to MCI
11 WorldCom at a rate of $25,000. We provided a permit to
12 construct on the third one, the one on the west side of the
13 road at $75,000. There was some logic to that in the sense
14 that they were actually providing capacity for three other
15 customers, therefore three times $25,000.
16 COMMISSIONER AVILA: Okay. Okay.
17 MR. BAUER: As a side, we have had extensive
18 discussions with the Land Office about appropriate rates for
19 fiber optic easements and it's clear that the structure used
20 in the oil and gas industry which for us is atypical and for
21 the GLO is $10 a rod, does not fit the revenue-generating
22 capability of fiber optics and these fiber optics bundles are
23 laid with huge potential capacity. So -- and when capacity is
24 added you are not aware of it and you don't have the
25 opportunity to take advantage of them using your land, so
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1 those were the basis of the fees.
2 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: And the fees that they're
3 paying, is that for a specific fiber optic cable that's been
4 laid or will be laid or is it broad enough where they could
5 lay more than one in the future?
6 MR. BAUER: The permit, the construction permit
7 identifies the laying of a group of conduit -- of conduit, of
8 pipe. And the permit is for the laying of that pipe with the
9 acknowledgment that they will be blown full or with fiber
10 optic cable at some point in time. There is more conduit
11 there than there is fiber cable in them right now. They are
12 not filled.
13 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: So then, the actual
14 easement is as to a particular conduit that they in the future
15 can stuff, as you might say, with fiber optic cable?
16 MR. BAUER: That's correct.
17 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: But there's a limitation
18 as to the size of that conduit?
19 MR. BAUER: There is a capacity limitation
20 because there is only so much fiber cable that you can cram
21 through the conduit, but there is extensive capacity there.
22 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Do we also reserve the
23 right in the future to grant future easements for other
24 conduits for other people that may be interested, which is not
25 exclusive as to them as to a particular area, but if we wanted
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1 to go, let's say, a foot higher or two feet higher and grant
2 another easement in the future?
3 MR. BAUER: We can.
4 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: We reserve that right.
5 MR. BAUER: That's correct. And in fact that
6 was the situation between Level 3, which is the folks that
7 constructed first and they do have an easement from the Board
8 for Lease. When MCI WorldCom came in, they are using the same
9 space but raised up. They're 5-foot wide easements and we
10 collected the same fee for that new customer.
11 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: Okay.
12 MR. COOK: Jack Bauer is much too modest. He
13 gets all he can get from them and asks for more.
14 MR. BAUER: I --
15 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: How do you know all this?
16 MR. BAUER: I think that was Mr. Cook's number.
17 COMMISSIONER MONTGOMERY: "More" is his number.
18 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Commissioner Fitzsimons.
19 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: Just as an aside,
20 you're absolutely right, $10 a rod is no longer anywhere close
21 to the market and even in the oil and gas industry. That's
22 more like 50,000 and I'm sure Donato gets more.
23 COMMISSIONER RAMOS: A little bit.
24 COMMISSIONER FITZSIMONS: A little bit. And
25 upwards to 350 a rod, $350 a rod in some cases. So that has
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1 become a very fluid area, in other words, whoever really has
2 what the party requesting the easement needs, can really
3 negotiate a price. The standards are out the window. So just
4 for future reference.
5 MR. BAUER: I think we're quite fortunate to
6 have you folks willing to help us with these and we will take
7 all your -- you're in the industry, you work in it every day
8 and that's a real benefit for us.
9 I would offer too that I think if these people
10 came to us today we probably wouldn't be getting $25,000.
11 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Is there any other discussion
12 from the Commission? The committee chair will place the item
13 on the Thursday Commission meeting agenda for public comment
14 and action.
15 Next committee Item No. 5 has been pulled from
16 the agenda. Committee Items 6 through 11 are real estate
17 items that were discussed in Executive Session. Is there any
18 other business to be brought before this committee, Mr. Cook?
19 MR. COOK: No, ma'am.
20 CHAIRMAN IDSAL: Hearing none, this committee
21 has completed its business and we will move on to the next
22 committee.
23
24
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1 THE STATE OF TEXAS )
2 COUNTY OF TRAVIS )
3 I, KIM SEIBERT, a Certified Court Reporter in and for
4 the State of Texas, do hereby certify that the above and
5 foregoing pages constitute a full, true, and correct
6 transcript of the minutes of the Texas Parks and Wildlife
7 Commission on April 3, 2002, in the Commission hearing room
8 of the Texas Parks and Wildlife Headquarters Complex, Austin,
9 Travis County, Texas.
10 I FURTHER CERTIFY that a stenographic record was made by
11 me at the time of the public meeting and said stenographic
12 notes were thereafter reduced to computerized transcription
13 under my supervision and control.
14 WITNESS MY HAND this ____ day of ____________________,
15 2002.
16
17
18 ___________________________
KIM SEIBERT, Texas CSR 4589
19 Expiration Date: 12/2002
3101 Bee Caves Road
20 Suite 220, Centre II
Austin, Texas 78701
21 (512) 328-5557
22
23
24
25
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1
2
3
4 ___________________________
KATHARINE ARMSTRONG IDSAL, CHAIRMAN
5
6 ___________________________
PHILIP MONTGOMERY, III
7
8 ___________________________
JOSEPH FITZSIMONS
9
10 ___________________________
KELLY W. RISING, M.D.
11
12 ___________________________
ERNEST ANGELO, JR.
13
14 ___________________________
JOHN AVILA, JR.
15
16 ___________________________
ALVIN L. HENRY
17
18 ___________________________
DONATO D. RAMOS
19
20 ___________________________
MARK E. WATSON, JR.
21
22
23
24
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